Erica Fields Narrator
Andrea Jenkins Interviewer 
 
The Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies University of Minnesota 
September 8, 2015 
 
The Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story, while providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source material about the transgender community.  The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for current and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public. 
The Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300 individuals over the next three years.  Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and experiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality.  This project will be led by Andrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist.  Andrea brings years of experience working in government, non-profits and LGBT organizations.  If you are interested in being involved in this exciting project, please contact Andrea. 
Andrea Jenkins jenki120@umn.edu (612) 625-4379 
 
Andrea Jenkins -AJ
Erica Fields -EF 
 
AJ: Hello, my name is Andrea Jenkins and this is the Transgender Oral History Project at the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota. Todays date is September , , and Im here with Erica and Im going to ask if you would mind stating your full name, your preferred gender pronouns, your gender identity, and your gender assigned at birth. 
 
EF: My name is Erica Fields. I identify as female. I go by pronouns of she and her and my gender assigned at birth was male. 
 
AJ: Erica, can you tell me about your earliest memory? 
 
EF: Of being trans? 
 
AJ: Earliest memory, period. 
 
EF: Interestingly enough I always, as a child, had a dream about being in a crib in a hospital and my parents and my siblings were leaving and I was having to stay behind. I always thought it was a dream, but when I was months old I had my appendix taken out and Im convinced now that this really was a memory and that it was because I was so young that it kind of translated itself as a dream. 
 
AJ: Wow, thats fascinating. You healed well, apparently. 
 
EF: Oh yes, I survived. 
 
AJ: Tell me a little bit about your home environment  your siblings and . . .? 
 
EF: Growing up? 
 
AJ: Yeah, where did you grow up/ 
 
EF: We grew up in Edina. My parents adopted all four of us, they couldnt have children. My mother was on the board of Catholic Charities and they decided to build a family through adoption. I was the third of four, I had an older sister, an older brother, and then a younger sister. We had a pretty good . . . it was a good home life. We were raised Catholic and went to a Catholic grade school with the nuns. In fact, I remember before the nuns got rid of their habits, they had the whole habit and all you could see was their face and when I was in nd or rd grade I kept thinking, I wonder whats behind that? Is there hair? That was really funny. But no, we had a really good home life. My parents really kind of . . . they were pretty open about our background as adopted kids. We celebrated an adoption anniversary every year  it was called our Chosen Day. 
 
AJ: For each child? 
 
EF: For all four of us together. 
 
AJ: All four  OK. 
 
EF: It was all four on the oldest adoption anniversary  so its October th. Wed get dressed up and wed have a small gift, nothing fancy but it was really heartfelt, and then wed go out to dinner. It was really fun. 
 
AJ: Very nice. Are your parents still alive now? 
 
EF: No, my mother passed away in 1999 and my father passed away in 2008. 
 
AJ: So you went to a Catholic school? 
 
EF: Yes. 
 
AJ: Which are known to be pretty strict institutions. What was that experience like for you? 
 
EF: In hindsight, and its quite some time ago now, I enjoyed it. I had friends, I always got in trouble. My daughter went to the same school and when she was in kindergarten, we were meeting with the kindergarten teacher and I was looking around the room, which happened to be where I had gone to st grade and th grade, they switched the rooms. And I told the teacher, I said, I think Ive washed every window in this place at least once because of all my detention. 
 
AJ: Oh boy. So they were pretty tough on you? 
 
EF: Yeah, but you know it was . . . we had a really good group of nuns, they were very, very open, they were focused on education. They werent as tough as . . . probably in the s. 
 
AJ: Sure. Did you experience any bullying or any teasing as a kid? 
 
EF: I got a lot of teasing because I was a little bit different. I didnt really fully understand . . . I knew that this was a part of me but I had no idea what it was. I had plenty of friends but I always felt like I wasnt really a part of any group. So, there was some teasing. I got along with everybody but yeah, there was some teasing. It wasnt bullying, per se, I dont think. 
 
AJ: Tell me about the first time that you realized that you were not the gender you were assigned at birth? 
 
EF: I dont know the exact age but it was probably about eight or ten years old. I would go into my mothers room when she was at bridge club or something and I would go in her drawers and pull out her clothes and just get dressed. I just had this feeling that why cant I be wearing these clothes, why cant I be a girl? At around the same time Id be at school and all the girls had the uniforms . . . well, we all had the uniforms but I just loved the girls little jumpers and I just . . . I wanted to go in the girls room and I wanted to be with the girls. Again, this is in the early to 
mid- s, I had nowhere to turn. I couldnt understand it. The feelings were there but . . . my parents caught me, probably when I was about or . I had taken a pair of panties from my cousins house, brought them home and I would wear them  Id hide them under my bed and my mother found them and wanted to know what was going on and whose were they. I just denied anything until it went away. And then when they finally quit asking, I knew at that moment that I really had to bury this. I didnt know what it was, of course being raised in that kind of a background I thought it was wrong, I felt guilty, I felt like it was something I had to be ashamed of, and yet it was always there. It was hard sometimes to think about it. 
 
AJ: When did you discover the language for how you were feeling? 
 
EF: You know, when I was probably in junior high I heard about Christine Jorgensen. I was too nervous to go to the movie  there was a movie, it was kind of a B movie, it wasnt that great. I didnt want to go because I just assumed everyone would look and say, Ah-ha, I know why that person is at this movie. And so I was aware of what it was and I kind of had this inkling that might be something that is part of me, but it wasnt until really when Renee Richards, and that was right around . . . toward the end of my college years, but when she was being vilified for being this transsexual tennis player, I read Time Magazine and it was like snap, thats me. And I just knew and really, really finally understood that was me. But, I was scared to death. I just assumed theres no way I could do what she did, she lost everything  she lost family, she lost friends. I thought Ill deal with it  and I dealt with it with drugs and alcohol. Fortunately, it was in the early s at that time and when I was in college casual use of drugs was pretty prominent  and they werent as powerful back then, it wasnt like what you have today. So it was easy for me to mask my feelings, and clothing was somewhat less restrictive. 
 
AJ: In the s, yeah. 
 
EF: Puffy sleeves and . . . 
 
AJ: Long hair, bell bottoms. 
 
EF: Exactly. So there was kind of this gender-bending attitude within the culture at that time, so that probably helped. 
 
AJ: At least around clothes. 
 
EF: Yes, right  right. 
 
AJ: Where did you go to college? 
 
EF: I went to Gonzaga University, which is in Spokane, Washington. I actually had a really wonderful experience there. I spent my junior year in Italy, it was a junior-year abroad program that I was really, really excited to do  it was fun. 
 
AJ: You say Gonzay-ga, some people say Gonzaga. 
 
EF: Its like you say tomay-to and I say tomato. 
 
AJ: Exactly. 
 
EF: I dont know why . . . I think there is probably no proper way of saying it, but I call it Gonzay-ga. 
 
AJ: Theyve actually won a couple of . . . 
 
EF: Tournaments  yeah, theyve done well. 
 
AJ: NCAA basketball championships over the years. 
 
EF: Yeah. Theyre always good in basketball  actually, they had a really good baseball team too. But I was a theatre major and they had a really neat theatre program. I think, again, that was something that helped me really cope with things because I got lost into the world of the theatre. 
 
AJ: And you can play make believe and . . . 
 
EF: And I did when I was a kid. We would have make believe and think we were on a deserted island and I would wear the dress, I would be the mother or the female. So yeah. 
 
AJ: Thats interesting. 
 
EF: I honed my acting skills at a young age. 
 
AJ: I want to be sure we talk about your acting career in a little bit. What terms do you use to describe yourself now and has that changed over time? 
 
EF: How do you mean? 
 
AJ: So in terms of do you define yourself as a transsexual, a gender queer woman, a . . .? 
 
EF: Well, you know, its interesting. You know Leigh Smythe? 
 
AJ: I do. 
 
EF: A very good friend of mine as well. Leigh and I had a lot of conversations about this. 
 
AJ: She spells her name L-e-i-g-h. 
 
EF: Leigh  yes. 
 
AJ: Smythe. 
 
EF: And Leigh and I came up with the idea, because I identify as a woman, but I also am proud of my transgender history. So she says, Maybe what we should do when we describe who we are to people is say, I am a woman with transgender history. Which is a nice way of putting it because if youve moved beyond . . . and thats one of the issues that you see in the trans community is it is a transitory, transitional thing  there are now a lot of people, younger people today, stay in that middle ground or they have a real fluid gender identity. 
 
AJ: Sure. 
 
EF: But I think people my age and older people, we went from one gender to another and so thats a way of expressing it. But Im very proud of the fact that I transitioned and became who I am. 
 
AJ: So, a woman of transgender history. 
 
EF: Yes. 
 
AJ: OK. Ive heard a lot of people talk about a woman or man of transgender experience, so thats very similar. 
 
EF: Yeah. 
 
AJ: What challenges have you faced since expressing your true gender identity? 
 
EF: Well, being older, I started my transition at . . . 
 
AJ: Had you ever come out to anybody prior to that? 
 
EF: Actually I had told one psychologist. I went to therapy in the 1990s, probably 1992 or 1993, and it was the first time I had mentioned wearing womens clothes and the therapist was, Well, youre probably . . . youre needing something in your life and you can pick positive things or negative things, and youre filling your cup with something negative and you need to find something positive to fill your cup with. I thought, Oh, OK. And you listen to a shrink and so I made the assumption that this is something I can figure out how to alleviate. 
 
AJ: Sure. 
 
EF: So, within a year or so I met my second wife  we fell in love and all of a sudden the feelings went away and I thought, You know, that shrink knew what he was talking about. And then within a couple of years of marriage, all of those feelings started coming back. That kind of started this spiral downward for me of, you know, do I really even want to survive? Do I even really want to worry about this anymore or think about . . .? I kept it very, very quiet and I only dressed when I was out of town. But I wasnt careful anymore. My habits to try and alleviate the feelings were pretty negative. So my second wife discovered my secret but I had never told anyone. She found a pair of panties in my home office. I called her from a business trip to let her know Id checked in OK and she said, You know, I found these in your office and theyre not mine, theyre not our daughters, my step-daughters, whose are they? And Im totally expecting that she thought I would say theyre some other womans. I have no idea where it came from, but I just said, Theyre mine. And it was like with that, this huge weight . . . I dont mean to be clich but there was like this sense of relief that even though, from that point on, I had a long road to go, there was such a sense . . . 
 
AJ: That you took the first step. 
 
EF: Yeah, exactly. And she was pretty . . . I know she was taken aback, and wed had a rocky marriage and a lot of it was, in hindsight, my secret. She sensed that there was something I was keeping from her and, for me, it was something Id kept from everybody all my life. 
 
AJ: Even yourself maybe. 
 
EF: Yes, many times. There was periods of time that I would not think about it, deny it and try and purge it. But yeah, I didnt tell anyone and no one else really knew other than my ex  she discovered it. 
 
AJ: How long did you guys stay together after that? 
 
EF: Not long. We were already kind of rocky and I think she had already tried to figure out an exit strategy. I could sense just in the way she was . . . she didnt want to go on business trips with me anymore if it was something where couples went. The marriage was not going to last anyway and this became . . . actually, about six months  or not even that. That was in November of . In July or August , she walked into my home office and I was watching some pornography, it was trans pornography, and it freaked her out. And, of course, shes really laying into me and Im going back to my old habit of trying to deny it until it goes away and finally I just blurted out, I want to be her. And she stopped and walked out. Thats when things really . . . wed had a rocky marriage most of the marriage because of the secret and everything, but thats when I really started to sense that she was trying to figure out how to get out, so this was her out. We divorced two years later . . . we started the process, we went through mediation and then we had a lawyer draft everything up. Like a lot of people in our situation, I gave her everything  I was very, very generous because I felt that I caused this and Id given her a vow of being her husband and here I am now becoming myself. So, you know, in a way I look back and think I fell into that trap of . . . 
 
AJ: Guilty . . . 
 
EF: Yeah, feeling guilty and just saying, Whatever you want, Im never going to need it anyway. That was probably the toughest period. Plus, my family  my father was old, he was or years old  in fact, he died in June of , about seven months after I had come out. So I told my ex, I said, Look . . . and she wasnt close with my family at all. I said, I dont care if you tell your family, I dont care if you tell your friends or you try to lean on them for support, because she needed support. I said, Stay away from the business and stay away from my family. Because without the business, youre in trouble too  so just stay away from it. And she had no problem  she wasnt really close to any of that. It worked well for a while, even through my dads funeral she didnt say anything and I presented as a male. But then she . . . she went down to a dock where we used to have a boat years ago and there was a guy at the dock from Cenex Harvest States that I used to work with and she was talking to the dock owner and he said, I hear youre getting divorced, whats going on? She told him that I was transitioning. And when she left, he made to this guys boat and said, Youre never going to believe what I heard about Fields. Told him and . . . Im an international grain trader, I trade in Europe, I trade in Canada, I trade in Mexico  within days, its on three continents. Im hearing stuff back from Europe, Hey, whats going on with you? I had some time I wanted to try . . . I was working on a really delicate plan to transition without losing my business. 
 
AJ: Sure. 
 
EF: And this kind of accelerated it by about six months. But it worked out, things worked out. 
 
AJ: Wow. So youre an international business person, self-employed. 
 
EF: Yes. 
 
AJ: Tell us a little bit about your business. 
 
EF: Everyone loves what I do. We sell rye, which is a small grain  they make rye bread out of it, but they also make whiskey out of it and we sell rye to the distilleries to make whiskey. My clients include Jim Beam, Jack Daniels, Sazerac, Wild Turkey  pretty much all of the distilleries in Kentucky that use rye buy it from us. 
 
AJ: Sour mash. 
 
EF: Sour mash  yes. Its fun, and Ive loved getting to understand this industry for years. My father was involved in it before me and my daughter came in in and that was . . . Im so lucky and even though everyone says, What a well thought out plan, we were punting. I had had about a year of open contracts and I had that amount of time to figure out how in the hell I was going to get my customers and everyone else to deal with this, or understand it. So my daughter, I came out to her in mid- to late- , like at Christmas time. Early the next year she said, Well what are you going to do with the business? I said, You know, I have absolutely no idea, this is all new. Im already trying to figure it out. And she said . . . she was recently out of college, shed worked for EcoLab for about three years, and she said, Well, why dont I come to work for you? I thought, Wow. She was late twenties at the time  or , and we developed this plan  my business partners would provide all our financing, theyd wanted me to have a succession plan for a number of years anyway. So I went to them and said, Hey, my daughter wants to come into the business, and they said, Oh great, this is perfect. So we sent her down there for some training for about six months and then I took her around to meet all of the customers and, again, presenting as male, and then we elevated her to be the manager of sales. So she was the face of the company and would go on the trips. I would talk to people on the phone all the time, and I managed the risk, I bought the grain. After the fiasco with the guy with the boat, my partners found out and I explained to them what was going on and the whole plan. They thought it was a good plan. So we pulled it off and within eight months, nine months, I had come out to everyone. I wrote a letter, I modified it for each person, and there wasnt any pushback at all. 
 
AJ: What was the general tone of the letter? 
 
EF: Basically it explained . . . most of these people I knew as friends, we had intimate relationships. 
 
AJ: Colleagues. 
 
EF: Right. And so I could be very personal with them and what I basically said was, you know, I need you to understand something that Im going through and I said that Im transgender and that Im transitioning to the gender that I feel I should have been born as. I did quote some statistics and some information, I really went through the National Center for Transgender Equality site and the HRC because a lot of these companies are on the HRC equality list so I kind of had handicapped all of the customers to figure out - OK, who is going to be receptive, who do I have to be really careful with, and it turned out all of them were pretty . . . because they were into retail. So theyre very high up on the HRC rating. 
 
AJ: Equality index, I think they call it. 
 
EF: Right, exactly. But what was nice is I knew that they had that attitude in a corporate setting so as a supplier they would be a little bit more open. The good old boy network was pretty much gone, there was only a couple of people left  and actually one of the people that we dealt with, I came out to with a letter, but I never really saw him again. Cara, my daughter, dealt with him. He was a real southern redneck and I just think he couldnt handle it  but we did the business. 
 
AJ: You didnt lose the business. 
 
EF: No, so that was really good. So thats . . . its a great business and its provided a lot. Im able to use it as a platform now for really . . . I dont vocally go out and push any kind of an agenda, but all of these people who I interact with, they see me, they see a trans woman who is successful, who is very comfortable in her own skin, who interacts very, very naturally with all of them. So it gives them an opportunity to feel comfortable with a trans woman. So when theyre in a situation where theres another trans woman, its kind of that silent education. I feel good about how thats worked. 
 
AJ: Yeah, I think visibility is a really important aspect of keeping our movement going forward. 
 
EF: And not hiding. Exactly. I dont hide. I dont wear it on my sleeve, because no one likes that no matter what it is. 
 
AJ: Right, exactly. 
 
EF: But I never hide it and I never hold it back. 
 
AJ: Tell me a little bit about your daughter. She came in and took over your business. Is she your biological daughter? 
 
EF: Yes, I was married twice. The first marriage resulted in three children  a daughter, the oldest, and then two sons. 
 
AJ: So shes OK with it, how are your sons? 
 
EF: Theyre actually quite good. My middle son, the oldest boy, when I first told him . . . theyre all pretty liberal, and actually my daughter when I came out to her, she said, Well, you know, you and mom raised us with a pretty open mind about diversity so this is what you get. And I thought, Well, I guess I did all right. But my son, he was very touching  he said, Look, intellectually I can get my arms around it, but emotionally its going to take me some time. And we had, at this table, because he lived about three blocks away at the time, hed come over and wed have dinner and after two hours of talking and debating and arguing and tears flying . . . it was very, very emotionally challenging for both of us, but we worked through it. I think we came away with a much stronger relationship and he was just over at our house about two weeks ago for dinner and it was fantastic. And the youngest son, hes a musician, hes going to school out in New York, he plays cello. Hes in a crowd thats pretty open, diverse, and everything else. So, it didnt really seem to bother him that much. Were pretty close. 
 
AJ: Oh good. So your children relationships are still pretty much all intact? 
 
EF: Yeah, I lost one  my stepdaughter. We had a good thing going and I lost contact with her for about eight months. I dont know what was going on  I kept sending her notes and Christmas and birthdays and everything else, actually I just got a letter this weekend. She said in the letter that she forgives me and that shes found the Lord, shes kind of a born-again Christian, and she feels that she cant move forward with her life unless she deals with her anger and everything over what I went through. Which is odd, because for the three or four years that she was going to college, which I was giving her the support for, she was great. She and her boyfriend would come over for dinner, we got along great. So Im a little puzzled . . . 
 
AJ: Since you had been out? 
 
EF: Oh yeah, I was living as Erica. And she was wonderful, she was very supportive. She met Patience  she was here for our wedding, we got married in this condo and all four of the kids were here. I dont know. She moved back to Omaha where her mother was and where her cousins and everything and I know that there was a lot of anger in that family . . . 
 
AJ: Bitterness, yeah. 
 
EF: And so I think she just took it on. But I trust someday shell be back because shes got a good heart, shes beautiful. I still love her. 
 
AJ: Absolutely. What have been some of the more positive aspects of expressing your true gender identity? 
 
EF: Well actually everything has been relatively positive. Ive been very fortunate. My family has been good. I think, for me . . . well, I wrote a piece, I think you heard it  Jaime Ann did it in the Naked I called Congruity. 
 
AJ: Congruity? 
 
EF: Yes. It was about my experience, shortly after my SRS surgery, when all of a sudden I was having dinner with Ellie Krug. Ellie and I were having dinner over at Loring Caf, which was packed, and all my life when I was in a crowd I just felt edgy . . . I was afraid I was going to knock things over and Id bump people, I just always had that feeling. Well, I went to the womens room and I came back, and when I came back and sat down I realized for the first time in my life I was able to walk through this crowd and not even think about . . . all of a sudden I was just in sync. And so the positive thing for me was really in here. I went through a lot of the processes to really confirm my gender, but at the end of the day it was really about feeling comfortable as myself. I feel very comfortable about who I am now. So, thats probably the most broad positive thing. 
 
AJ: Thats fascinating. Im glad you mentioned Ellen Krug and her new book, Getting to Ellen. 
 
EF: Yeah, that was really . . . it was fun to read because a good section of that was when I knew her when we were hanging out together so it was really fun to read. I got to know her brother pretty well and hes prominent in the book and a really, really wonderful guy. So yeah, that was really fun. She focused on the book and literally fell off the face of the earth for a while because she was so focused. So I hadnt seen her for a couple of years when the book came out and weve since gotten together two or three times for lunch. Shes a wonderful person. And I guess activism, I mean I was always a very active person. I voted in ten presidential elections. I was the year -year-olds were given the right to vote, which was exciting. 
 
AJ: What year was that? 
 
EF: . And so I voted for McGovern, that was my first election and he got creamed by Nixon. But I looked at when the Obama re-election came up a few years ago, I have voted in elections  I voted for four Republicans, four Democrats, and two Independents. I cant believe it. I was going back and going, Oh my God, its right down the middle. 
 
AJ: You went right down the middle. 
 
EF: And I didnt vote for any of the real biggies like Reagan or Clinton, I didnt vote for either of them. But I was somewhat active in college but now Ive really found a voice in the trans community. Im involved in a number of organizations. 
 
AJ: Really? Which ones? 
 
EF: Yeah, theres Gender Justice. 
 
AJ: Gender Justice, OK. 
 
EF: And that is a non-profit, they do mainly . . . its not focused on LGBT but they do a lot of LGBT work. They were very involved in the passage of WESA, the Womens Employment and Security Act, here in the state of Minnesota. And theyve represented several trans people, the woman who was working at Northwest Bible College or whatever, who they wanted to fire because she had transitioned, they were representing her. They represented a number of . . . 
 
AJ: Wasnt there a Deluxe Checking case? 
 
EF: Yes, and I think they were involved in that one as well. 
 
AJ: So Gender Justice. 
 
EF: And then Im on the board of Quorum. Quorum is the Twin Cities GLBT Chamber of Commerce and Ive really enjoyed that  and working with the NGLCC, which is the National Gay Lesbian Chamber of Commerce. 
 
AJ: NGLCC? 
 
EF: NGLCC, right. 
 
AJ: OK. And its the National Gay Lesbian Chamber of Commerce. 
 
EF: Yes. And they certify GLBT-owned businesses, so we got certified and a lot of our customers are now able to plug us in their diverse supplier. 
 
AJ: There you go  a win-win for everybody. 
 
EF: Absolutely, its cool. So Ive really found a voice, and then probably the greatest thing is getting married again. I met a woman, Patience. We were friends for a number of years before we really got together. I met her after I had come out but before I finished my transition. And all of a sudden we found ourselves in a position where we were now kind of a friend-date with another friend, and we fell in love. It was the first relationship Ive ever had where there was no secret. 
 
AJ: No secret  you could be your full self. 
 
EF: Yeah, I was totally honest. Totally. And it felt so good. Its been an amazing relationship. We spend almost all our time together. We travel together. She had a career as a marketing person for the Star Tribune, she was an independent contractor. And when the Strib, and all other newspapers, were struggling, she hadnt had a contract for a while. So I just said, Well, why dont we just be together and you can come . . . She helps me out quite a bit. In fact, shes going to do some lists for us here after harvest this year. So she stayed busy a little bit with that, but just being together has been great. 
 
AJ: Wow, that is wonderful  congratulations. 
 
EF: Thank you. We got married on August nd of . 
 
AJ: So a couple years now  you just had an anniversary actually. 
 
EF: We did, yes. 
 
AJ: Happy anniversary. 
 
EF: Thank you. 
 
AJ: So you talked about this a little bit, but lets hear a little bit about the medical interventions that youve undergone  if youre comfortable. 
 
EF: Sure, sure. As you know, I was involved in a film. So basically everyone gets a chance to see more of me than I did. 
 
AJ: Trans, the movie. 
 
EF: Trans, the movie  its a beautiful film, it really is. 
 
AJ: It is. 
 
EF: It chronicles the lives of a number of trans people, but I . . . its interesting because when I first started going to therapy, my ex asked how far I was going to go and I honestly didnt know. I said, I have no idea. I didnt know at that time that I would go to the lengths that I did to become myself, or if I needed to. I just didnt know. For the first time I think I was approaching something with a clean slate  without a projection of, OK, heres going to be my path. It was like, Lets see what happens and when I come to a point where I feel comfortable and I stay there or whether I keep going. I continued on and once I got on hormone replacement therapy in , the sense of relief, the sense of comfort, of being relaxed and fulfilled really, really grew. And thats when I knew that I needed to go further and ultimately become physically a woman. I found a great surgeon. I decided on Christine McGinn, out in New Hope, Pennsylvania. 
 
AJ: How do you spell her last name? 
 
EF: M-c-G-i-n-n. Shes actually a trans woman herself. 
 
AJ: Oh wow. 
 
EF: But what I liked about her is shes very, very proactive from a medical standpoint. The preparation for surgery was very intense and I was at an age where I felt my risks were higher than if I were younger, so I wanted to make sure I had someone that was focused on the preparation. I quit smoking long before, I smoked a little, but I quit smoking completely about a year before surgery  or eight months, I guess. I quit drinking for about a month before, she said, I want you off alcohol for a month, and then she had a real structured regiment going in and then her follow-up was amazing. I went out there three times afterwards, the last time was an annual. But she was really neat. Before she transitioned shed been a flight surgeon cleared for a shuttle flight. I dont think she ever went on it but she was cleared. 
 
AJ: Oh wow, like NASA. 
 
EF: Yeah. Shes an interesting person. Shes in the film, so if you get a chance . . . well, I gave you a copy. 
 
AJ: I have a copy of the film, absolutely. 
 
EF: Anyway, it was interesting because when I woke up after the surgery, Im pretty drugged up but I really felt like something had happened. I just felt really, really good about everything. The following year I . . . I waited for another year to have breast enhancement because I wanted to make sure the hormones had done pretty much all they could because I didnt want to overdo it. It happens. So, yeah  I went through everything and Im really glad I did. I really feel now, like physically Im where I should have been to begin with. 
, 
AJ: Thats awesome, thank you for sharing that. Its so personal but I appreciate your willingness. Has there been a specific person that had an impact on you related to your gender identity? I know you talked about Renee Richards a little bit. 
 
EF: Yeah. 
 
AJ: But there was a long period between knowing who Renee Richards was and finally coming out. 
 
EF: You know, the first time that I went out in public as myself was in I went to the Chicago Be- All, which was a conference that then occurred every . . . I think it was right after Memorial Day, the week after. 
 
AJ: So thats a trans-specific conference? 
 
EF: Yes. When it started it was mainly cross dressers and trans folks, but at that time a lot of the people that were going out were basically cross dressers, many of whom were trans as well but they didnt really . . . 
 
AJ: They werent identifying at that point. 
 
EF: Right. So kind of the premise of the conference was . . . there were a lot of vendors that sold everything from breast forms to different hip things  you name it. 
 
AJ: Hair extensions and larger shoes for . . . 
 
EF: Oh yeah. But I went down there and I had never been out in public as myself  ever. So I drove down to Chicago and I check into the hotel the night before and Im in my room and Im just kind of hanging out. The next morning I get dressed and Im nervous as hell. Ive got a wig on and I walk out of my room and I walk to the elevators and I push the button. As I push the button I hear a bunch of commotion coming down the hall  its a whole bunch of construction workers, because they were doing renovations, and I was scared to death. I ran back to my room and I went in and my heart was going crazy and I was like, Oh, I cant do this, I cant do this. Finally, I went down the back stairs and I went down and all of a sudden Im in a room with a whole bunch of mes  a lot of people just like me. I ended up meeting four or five women and we hung out. I went to five Be-Alls and they were always there and we would get together and it was really fun. A few of them actually came up here. I did Kate Bornsteins show, Hidden Agenda, a few years ago and two of the women I got to know at the Be-All came up to see it. In fact, right after I get back from my trip, one of the women is coming up here and were going to have a weekend together  it will be fun. 
 
AJ: Oh nice. 
 
EF: So influence was probably those women who had been there before. Actually most of them were cross dressers and still identify as cross dressers, but it was really kind of that special first time out and really starting to feel comfortable as yourself. So thats a big influence. After I came out and started therapy and was beginning my transition, I read a lot. Julia Serano, Kate Bornstein, Jenny Boylan  you know, pretty much everything you could. 
 
AJ: Right. All the critical trans feminist thinkers. 
 
EF: Yes. In fact it was really kind of neat because Kate Bornsteins book, Gender . . . what is it? 
 
AJ: Outlaws. 
 
EF: Yes, Gender Outlaws. In the middle of it is a play called, Hidden Agender and I was so excited and lucky to get a chance to play the role that was based on her in a production of it here locally. 
 
AJ: Wow, thats wonderful. 
 
EF: Yeah, it was really neat. 
 
AJ: So youre an actress? 
 
EF: Yes, that was a great segue. Yes, Ive been a theatre person since I was in high school. 
 
AJ: In high school  what are some other productions that youve been a part of  both pre- transition and post-? 
 
EF: Well Ive been very fortunate to have played a lot of my dream roles. Probably one of the best was in I played George in Of Mice and Men and it was an amazing, amazing cast, one of the best productions Ive been in. I played Petruchio in The Taming of the Shrew. I played Anselme, the miser, in The Miser. 
 
AJ: So youve been getting lead roles. 
 
EF: I had lead roles, a lot of lead roles. And Ive directed a lot. I did a lot of childrens shows that I directed. So Ive had a lot of fun with it. 
 
AJ: Were these professional theatre companies? 
 
EF: Some of them were and some of them werent. The one that I did Of Mice and Men was called The Phipps and its in Hudson. Its on a par with . . . they get great, great directors from the Twin Cities and they get a lot of good actors from the Twin Cities. 
 
AJ: Sure. 
 
EF: They dont pay their actors but its considered a professional quality theatre. But, I get paid to direct over there. So I had a really good experience and a pretty good resume. When I started transitioning I thought, OK, thats it. And that last year . . . 
 
AJ: No roles for trans women. 
 
EF: Exactly. Id go from being at an age, as a male, where all the roles are just being handed to you, to being a middle-aged, overweight woman who cant even find a part. But thats when I met Claire Avitabile. They were doing the original Naked I and I was in my therapists office and I saw a post card for it and said, Whats that? She said, Oh, its a play that theyre going to be doing, you might want to look at it. So I grabbed a post card and I saw it and I thought, Wow, Ive got to go. So I ended up buying tickets for two performances and one of them Ellen Krug and I went to together. It was at the Old Bedlam Theatre, which was a bar  in fact, ironically, it used to be called Knickerbockers . . . 
 
AJ: I remember. 
 
EF: And the owner of Knickerbockers was an incredibly close friend of mine, we used to work together, and I helped him build that deck up on the top back in the 1980s. 
 
AJ: Yeah, the sun roof deck. 
 
EF: Yeah, we had a lot of parties there. But anyway, it was the Bedlam Theatre at this point. So Claire was doing tickets, she was doing everything and I introduced myself and we hit it off and talked. The show was absolutely amazing and I thought, God, maybe there is life after transition in the theatre. And Claire came to me about a year later, eight months later, and said, Were doing a production and Id like you to audition. So I auditioned and I was lucky enough to get cast in Anon, which was a really acclaimed production. There were women who did monologues as a part of a support group for partners of sex addicts. So I had one of the monologues. Two things came out of it. One was the first chance to be a woman on the stage; the second was an incredibly close relationship with or women, women. We had a slumber party towards the end of the run and I went and it was my first slumber party. 
 
AJ: That was your first slumber party. 
 
EF: Yeah. And they all knew it and they made it real special. We had a ball. We all sat around and we drank beer, we just had fun, ate popcorn, watched stupid movies. 
 
AJ: Did you do your nails? 
 
EF: No, we didnt do our nails, but it was really, really fun. So I got these experiences through that and then I was also part of an actors studio run by Lev Mailer called Lev Mailers Actors Studio. 
 
AJ: Lev? L-e-v? 
 
EF: Yes. He was a pretty well-known actor in LA. He was actually the secretary of the Screen Actors Guild and he ran some studios out there. He was a well-known character in a couple of episodes of the original Star Trek, he was in Hogans Heroes, he was in a lot of those old shows. He started in New York but his wife was from Wisconsin, so when he retired he came back here and started teaching. I was in his studio for about four years before I transitioned and then when I transitioned, I asked if I could come back to the studio, because I had quit for a while, and they were all excited to have me back. So I went back for about three years and Lev was really cool. He said, You know what? Im going to give you some scenes to do with some of the classic characters, women characters, in shows, in plays, and give you an opportunity to kind of stretch and learn these. Hedda Gabler . . . I cant remember the rest of them. Hedda was probably one of the best parts I played. Just amazing parts. He said, Look, this is an opportunity for you to grow as a woman as well. 
 
AJ: Exactly. 
 
EF: From that experience, because my biggest fear was I was going to have to re-learn acting skills because I was now a woman and I had always been a man before. 
 
AJ: Sure. 
 
EF: What I found out was my performances were totally honest, there was a filter that was no longer there. Everything I had done before, even if it was some of my best work, in essence was a woman playing a man and now I was a woman . . . 
 
AJ: Now that shield was down. 
 
EF: Yeah. Some of my studio mates, wed do a scene and theyd come up and say, Wow, thats the best stuff weve ever seen you do. And thats because it was coming from here and there wasnt a filter anymore. 
 
AJ: Wow. 
 
EF: I know, it was a really interesting revelation. 
 
AJ: Thats incredible. 
 
EF: Ive done six shows since transition. A lot of them are trans women but theyve been really, really good shows and fun shows to do. 
 
AJ: We actually got to do one together. 
 
EF: Well you and I got to do . . . I got to do your piece in Pink and Blue in the second Naked I, which was so much fun. 
 
AJ: Im very proud of that piece and was very moved by your performance in that. 
 
EF: And Zealot, we had so much putting it together. Zealots got such a spirit and we connected really well on stage so that was fun. 
 
AJ: It was an honor to have you play that role, so thank you. 
 
EF: Thank you. 
 
AJ: Tell me a little bit about what do you think the relationship between the L, the G, and the B is to the T community, in your own experience. You talked a lot, like Quorum  its a gay, lesbian organization and Gender Justice doesnt really have . . . so Im just curious, what do you think about the relationship between those communities? 
 
EF: My experience has been positive with gays and lesbians. Im married to a woman and she has been very confirming of my gender as a woman and my sexual identity, or orientation, as lesbian. 
 
AJ: So you identify as a lesbian? 
 
EF: I identify as lesbian so I have kind of a connection within the lesbian community. But I also recognize, and my wife . . . my wife got shunned to a great extent by the lesbian community. Not a horrible shunning but the sense of separation because a lot of people in the lesbian community dont view us trans women as women. 
 
AJ: Sure. 
 
EF: My experience with gay men, because I knew a lot of them before transitioning, has been pretty good. But I think theres . . . because were an identity and not an orientation, I guess you might want to say, there is a difference. In certain respects, like marriage equality, that really didnt have . . . other than gay and lesbian trans people, it didnt have a lot to do with trans people. Dont Ask Dont Tell was the same thing, although now theyre allowing openly trans people to serve in the military. But yeah, I think theres a little bit of a disconnect. I started transitioning and started understanding the trans community after a lot of the stuff that had gone down before with the HRC and everything else. In fact, prior to my transitioning, in when I came out, I had never actually met a trans person. 
 
AJ: Wow. 
 
EF: Right, so here I am . . . 
 
AJ: You were brand new in the world. 
 
EF: Exactly. So I was aware and, of course, I was watching these really, really . . . now I look back and I think its so exploitive, whatever that word is  excuse me, but the trans porn and all of that. But I watched a lot of that because it allowed me to really see people like me. But I think the LGB have, I think theyve come a long way, but I think theres still that sense that theyre different. I get along just great with the people at Quarum, again part of it is because Im a business person  its a business persons thing. So the orientation is there only because of our attempts to try and create . . . 
 
AJ: Its less important than the business relationships. 
 
EF: Right, exactly. I went to the HRC dinner a few years back in Washington and we had a trans table, Amanda Simpson was at it - shes a really good friend of one of my friends out east. So it was a . . . 
 
AJ: She works at HRC? 
 
EF: No, she had just been named undersecretary of commerce. 
 
AJ: Yes. 
 
EF: Id met Amanda because she was on the board of NCTE for a number of years and Id met her through Mara Keisling, because I was fairly active in the NCTE for a few years and Marcus Waterbury, who is a local trans guy, was the chairperson. And so, we had this table and I think there were two or three trans tables, as it were. We got along with everybody but theres this separation. Its kind of like when you go to a picnic, a family picnic, and this family is over here and this family is over here and yeah, they play wiffle ball together but then they go back to their little table and have their meal. 
 
AJ: Yeah . . . no, I think thats a very apt description. Do you think there is a transgender agenda? A hidden agenda . . . no, Im just kidding. Do you think theres a trans agenda and if not, should there be? 
 
EF: I dont think there is. I think the transgender community has really come together in trying to work towards equality, but I dont see it as an agenda per se. I personally dont really like the word agenda because it . . . I think for people who are attempting to try and educate about a community, the word agenda is a negative. I think you hear about, Oh, its a gay agenda. If truth be told, yes  everybody has an agenda, but the reality, I think, for the trans community is that weve been able to learn a little bit by those who have gone before us. I do think the trans community tends to be a little bit overly sensitive. I understand why, but Im not sure it really serves us well because I think having spent most of my time with straight people, mainly business people, they dont like things being pushed . . . they wont turn around and say, Ah, you know what? Yeah, theyre right. What theyre going to do is push back. So I think having certain kinds of activism, I think are counterproductive. I think Caitlyn Jenner is . . . I think her heart is in the right place. Shes going to stumble, but I think shes really focused on trying to do a good thing. Shes surrounded herself with some very, very solid advisors, including Jenny Boylan. I think LaVerne Cox has done a tremendous amount of good things for the trans community. Janet Mock . . . theres so many people out there that are doing really good things, but I dont see it as an agenda. I see it more as an attempt to bring awareness to our community. 
 
AJ: Yeah. Im glad you mentioned Caitlyn. The narrative thats around Caitlyn is that she was able to come out and sort of actually have surgeries and sort of transformation prior to coming out, which is not the reality for a lot of trans people. 
 
EF: Most of us. 
 
AJ: Youre right, most transgender people. What do you think about that narrative and are you concerned that because . . . I mean, Caitlyn is now the most famous transgender person in the world? 
 
EF: Yeah. 
 
AJ: Do you think that that does damage to the image? Now everybody thinks that if youre trans then you have to have had all of this surgery, that you have to have done all of these things? 
 
EF: Well yeah, I can understand that. Actually Ive got a real interesting story about Caitlyn. In , I graduated from college and during the summer my family  my parents, my sister, and I, were able to go, we were invited to Montreal for the Olympics and I spent about two weeks in Montreal. I went to see every single one of Bruce Jenners events. I have pictures that I took . . . 
 
AJ: Wow, all ten. 
 
EF: All ten and I have pictures of him on the podium getting the medal. 
 
AJ: Oh boy. 
 
EF: Yeah. I really enjoyed that, he was a real hero. So Ive always . . . 
 
AJ: Did you get to meet Bruce? 
 
EF: No, I didnt - I wish. He was just a real hero and I always looked up to him. So from that day forward, I just really admired him. I think what people lose sight of with Caitlyn Jenner is regardless of her being trans, here is someone that has been in the spotlight, was named Athlete of the Year back in , and had to deal with that all then. This obviously, this is a real good test for people in the community and people outside the community, to see the reactions to someone this famous coming out and being themselves. I havent really followed . . . I havent seen her E show. I did listen to her acceptance speech at the ESPYs. 
 
AJ: It was a great speech. 
 
EF: It was beautiful. I believe her heart is in the right place, I think she will stumble like anybody. 
 
AJ: Yeah, this is a tough road. 
 
EF: The problem is shes under a microscope and anything that happens that . . . this is more a judgment not on her, its a judgment on all of us  everyone of us . . . 
 
AJ: On our society and our culture. 
 
EF: To see how they treat her, even the people in the trans community and how they treat her. It gives us in the trans community an opportunity to embrace someone this famous and accept them as a sister  and I hope we do. I hope that she does some good for the community, but its not about the community  its about that person, that individual, and their journey. Of course its different, but all of our journeys have been different. I get worried that Caitlyn is going to get hurt and going to be taken advantage of from a lot of different angles, but I have faith because she was so amazing in  I mean, it was absolutely amazing to watch that and to read about it. 
 
AJ: Shes a pretty strong girl  shell be OK, I think. 
 
EF: She could come out on top and really make all of us proud. And she can enlighten some people hopefully. 
 
AJ: I just felt bad to know the sort of pain of feeling different from your physical reality and having to walk around with that for years  that is a very long time. 
 
EF: I did . 
 
AJ: Youre just stuck in so much pain. Im glad shes out for no other reason than now she can live her true life. 
 
EF: You understand that and I understand that, and people in the trans community  if theres a common thread for all of us I think it is that pain that we felt during the time before we could actually be ourselves. I felt the same way and I know you did. 
 
AJ: Absolutely. 
 
EF: You were a successful person prior to transitioning. 
 
AJ: Yes, I had a fairly successful life. 
 
EF: You lived the life, I did the same thing  and everything thought I was this guy. So Jenner is just that much more in the spotlight and had that much brighter of a previous life. 
 
AJ: A celebrity trans. 
 
EF: And that might have made it harder. 
 
AJ: Im sure it did. So theres the celebrity trans and then theres the issue of transgender women of color and so far in , transgender women of color have been murdered this year. 
 
EF: Wow. 
 
AJ: Any thoughts about those issues at all, Erica? 
 
EF: Just as trans people tell people outside the community, you can empathize, you can sympathize, you can support, but you cant understand because youre not one. I was very, very fortunate as a kid to have grown up with parents that were very open and my experience with African Americans, with Black people, was started at a young age and I always felt comfortable. But, I dont know the experience. Ive had really wonderful intellectual conversations with friends of mine about what its like to feel profiled, about what its like to not have privilege. Ive got a little bit of that experience becoming a woman after being a male, but I do empathize and I do feel that trans people of color have got a huge burden, or a huge obstacle to overcome. I dont know . . . I dont know what I can do other than be very supportive, but I think the whole idea that all of these murders occur, and a lot of it is because I think, not just because theyre of color, but theyre at a socio-economic level that puts them in danger to begin with. 
 
AJ: Sure. Yes. 
 
EF: And then you throw on top of that, the people that theyre interacting with who are dangerous anyway, have less of a skill set or an ability to deal with a trans person. So I just think there are so many things that kind of snowball in that situation. 
 
AJ: Yeah, lots of factors. 
 
EF: Yeah. 
 
AJ: And chief amongst them being trans like that . . . theres still a lot of discrimination, harassment, just because youre transgender. And then as a person of color with, like you mentioned, the lower socio-economic backgrounds  all those issues come into play as well. 
 
EF: I think thats something that we as a trans community should really dig . . . I mean all of us, not just trans people of color, but all of the trans community should try and figure out a way to help and to create less risk for them. 
 
AJ: Opportunities, housing, education. 
 
EF: Bingo. And I think education is the biggest thing. But yeah, Ive been involved with Reclaim a little bit on this mentorship, as you have, and Im so excited about the program because youve got all of these trans youth that really need people that they can look to and say, Well, heres a trans person thats doing this in their life and this in their life. I was on the board of MTHC for a few years . . . 
 
AJ: Whats MTHC? 
 
EF: Minnesota Trans Health Coalition  you know what it is, but I need to tell them. 
 
AJ: We need to tell the people, yes. 
 
EF: Right. The Minnesota Trans Health Coalition was a great organization and they dealt a lot with trans people of color, I think they dealt a lot with trans youth that were being marginalized not only in their lives but also in their living conditions and everything else. And there needs to be a lot more done. We need more Reclaims, we need more outfits like that. 
 
AJ: Weve got a lot of work to do. 
 
EF: Yeah. 
 
AJ: Wow, this has been just a joy to sit here and learn more about your life. Weve known each other a couple of years now, but you know, very rarely do you get a chance to really sit down and have an in-depth conversation. Is there anything else that you are burning to share with me or with potential viewers? And maybe let me phrase it to you like this, where do you see the transgender community in years? 
 
EF: I think that the transgender community is going to be integrated into society on almost every level because we are much more open and willing to help transgender youth feel comfortable and good about being who they are. I think that is a huge thing. It wasnt there for me, wasnt there for you. 
 
AJ: Sure, not at all. 
 
EF: It wasnt there for Caitlyn. 
 
AJ: No. 
 
EF: So I think well end up being dinosaurs. I dont think youll see year-olds or year-olds, as in my case, transitions because as youth theyll be . . . 
 
AJ: Theyre coming out at . 
 
EF: Yeah, which I think is wonderful. I think the challenge there is to get the general population to understand and accept it and not think its something that shouldnt be done. But I think the trans community will become less of a novelty as it is today and more of a mainstream group of people, similar to whats going on in the gay and lesbian community. Thats my hope. 
 
AJ: So youre optimistic. 
 
EF: Yeah, I really am. Ive always been pretty optimistic. And you know what? Its all about being your true self  seriously. And theres nothing better than being honest with yourself and being in sync. 
 
AJ: Wow, thats says it all. Thank you, Erica. 
 
EF: Youre welcome  thank you. 