﻿Gloria Allen Narrator
Andrea Jenkins Interviewer 
    
The Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies University of Minnesota 
April 23, 2016 
  
The Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story, while providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source material about the transgender community.  The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for current and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public. 
The Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300 individuals over the next three years.  Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and experiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality.  This project will be led by Andrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist.  Andrea brings years of experience working in government, non-profits and LGBT organizations.  If you are interested in being involved in this exciting project, please contact Andrea. 
Andrea Jenkins jenki120@umn.edu (612) 625-4379 
 
Andrea Jenkins -AJ 
Gloria Allen -GA 
 
 
AJ: So, hello. Today is April 23, 2016. My name is Andrea Jenkins and I am the oral historian with the Transgender Oral History Project. We are sitting here in Minneapolis, Minnesota, just hours after Prince has passed away – sadly, very sadly. I’m sitting here with Mama Gloria Allen, a legend in her own time. Gloria, how are you? 
GA: I’m fine and thank you. I enjoy Minneapolis, yes. 
AJ: Yes, yes. So before we really dig in, Gloria can you just state your name, spell it for us, tell me what is your gender identity today and what was your gender assigned at birth? 
GA: OK. Well, my name is Gloria Allen and it’s G-l-o-r-i-a and last name is Allen, A-double l-e-n. And my gender identity is she, female. And I’ve been that way all my life. I really came out of my mama’s womb slinging a pink purse so I know I’m a girl, it’s no closet. The only time I went to the closet was to take clothes out. I didn’t hide my identity in the closet. I’ve been out all my life and I’m proud to be here to say that. 
AJ: That’s a beautiful thing. 
GA: Yes it is. 
AJ: Can you just say how old you are? Do you mind? 
GA: I am 70-years-old. 
AJ: No way. 
GA: And I feel amazing. 
AJ: You look beautiful. 
GA: Thank you, thank you. And I say this, good genes. My mother and father they were, I mean, beautiful people and physically both of them were physically built. 
AJ: Really, just striking, huh? 
GA: Yeah, my father looked like a gladiator from the Roman days. 
AJ: Really? 
GA: Yes. And my mother was a centerfold JET model. My mother inspired me all of my life. I guess when I got up some size and would look at my mother and I would say, “Ohh, I want to be just like her.” 
AJ: Really? 
GA: Yes. 
AJ: And it happened. 
GA: It happened. 
AJ: It happened because you could be on the cover of JET Magazine right now today. 
GA: Well, thank you. And my mother, God rest her soul, my mother had kids. 
AJ: Is that right? 
GA: Yes, and she looked amazing. She didn’t lose her figure or anything. 
AJ: Wow. And you said your mother . . . we were talking last night and you said your mother was a dancer. 
GA: Yes, my mother was a chorus line dancer and she danced with Sammy Dyer of Dance Troupe and there was another famous lady, I can’t think of her name – but my mother danced with the same troupe as Eartha Kitt was in. 
AJ: Is that right? 
GA: And Eartha Kitt and my mother had the most amazing bodies and legs, they were known for that. 
AJ: Well if she was anything like Eartha Kitt she was a knock-out. 
GA: Yes, she was – she was. She was prettier than Eartha Kitt but her and Eartha Kitt had the same body structure. They had beautiful bodies and beautiful legs. 
AJ: Absolutely, because I think Eartha Kitt had her legs insured. 
GA: Yes, she did. And my mother should have had hers insured. 
AJ: Well she had 13 babies. 
GA: Yes, she did. 
AJ: Where did you fit in that range? 
GA: I’m the oldest. 
AJ: Are you really? 
GA: I’m the oldest, yes. The oldest out of all of them and that is so amazing. I became, as they say, the surrogate mother when my mother wasn’t able to take care of them. 
AJ: When she was gone out dancing or doing what mothers have to do. 
GA: Yes, I was there. I took on her role. 
AJ: Right, wow. So the name Mama Gloria came to you very naturally. 
GA: Yes it did, yes it did. And I am so proud to wear that title, Mama Gloria. 
AJ: Yeah, so I first learned about you, Mama Gloria, when you were honored in . 
GA: Yes. 
AJ: For the Trans Legacy Award. So they named people . . . 
GA: Yes, they did. 
AJ: But they gave you the Legacy Award. 
GA: They sure did. And I didn’t know anything about it. When it was brought to my attention I had just got out of the hospital. 
AJ: Oh no. 
GA: Because I suffer with diabetes and I just got out of the hospital and I wasn’t feeling good and Precious Davis called me up and she said, “Mama Gloria, we’re having an affair at the Mayne Theatre, I hope you can be there.” And by it being Precious, I said, “Baby, I’ll be there for you.” 
AJ: Right. 
GA: I wasn’t feeling all that great and I got there and I couldn’t . . . I’m looking at all these people and the place, the venue was beautiful. I’m looking all around, wondering what is going on here. And they were just leading me to seats and taking me upstairs to the make-up green room and everything. So I said, “I don’t know what in the hell is going on here.” And then finally I saw the little brochures and plaques on the table and my picture was on there. And they said, “The Living Legend Award.” I was floored. 
AJ: Oh my goodness. 
GA: I was so floored. I cried. I was . . . so with Precious Davis and my other baby, Janet Mock, was there – which I love her to no end. 
AJ: Janet Mock was there, I love her to death – yes. 
GA: And Laverne Cox was there. 
AJ: Laverne was there too? 
GA: Laverne was there and Angelica Ross. 
AJ: Angelica – yeah. 
GA: So I was surrounded by all these beautiful flowers and I’m saying, “Oh my God, here I am with all my children. I feel like Phoebe Tyler.” 
AJ: Phoebe Tyler – oh my goodness. 
GA: Yes I did. 
AJ: I’m more of an Erica girl myself. 
GA: OK. 
AJ: I know my All My Children stories. 
GA: And you are one of my babies too, you know. I am so blessed. 
AJ: I am so proud to be mentioned with all of those beautiful women, who I know all of them. 
GA: And you are, you rank up there with them. 
AJ: Oh, thank you darling. 
GA: I’m so proud that I’m able to be here today to witness this. It means a lot to me, it really does. During the time that I was coming up, transgender – we didn’t exist. We were, as they say, hidden behind rocks and closed doors and everything. I refused to be hidden. I didn’t care what people thought about me because I’m out here and you’re going to deal with me. 
AJ: You’re going to deal with me. 
GA: Yes. 
AJ: Today. 
GA: Yes. 
AJ: Oh my goodness. Mama Gloria, so you’re here in Minneapolis because there’s been a play written about your life. And not necessarily about your life, but about some of the work that you have done in your life – which was to start a Charm School. I’m assuming you did this after you retired. What did you do for your professional life? 
GA: My professional life, I was an LPN at the University of Chicago in Hyde Park. At the time they called it Billings Hospital. 
AJ: Right, Billings. I remember Billings Hospital. 
GA: Yes. And I was there. My mother was an RN at Billings Hospital years ago. I wanted to be just like my mom. 
AJ: So you really did become your mom. 
GA: I did, I really did. I was so proud of my mother having all these kids and had a profession and then she was the model and danced and everything. 
AJ: An artist too. 
GA: Yes, and I was so . . . I say God blessed me with a good mother and a good father. I wanted to be just like my mom. So I went to school for nursing. I wanted to be a doctor but later on in life I decided, “Ohh, that’s too long.” I couldn’t go through that, which I should have today. 
AJ: Well, you think about it though . . . it was really hard for Black women to become doctors, for any kind of person – period. 
GA: And being a transgender woman and being a doctor, I probably wouldn’t have made it far. 
AJ: Well you made it to RN, which in my opinion is just as important as any doctor. 
GA: Yes, it’s good. It is, it really is. And I loved my craft. 
AJ: And you did it for years. 
GA: years. I loved it. 
AJ: That’s incredible. Thank you for helping people heal. 
GA: Yeah, I’ve always wanted to be that way. I always wanted to be a doctor or a nurse and I remember the time, as a kid, sitting at the table and my mother and father and I had not that many brothers and sisters then, I had a few of them . . . 
AJ: But not all yet. 
GA: And then I had a brother named Herb and so we were sitting down and my mother asked us, “What do you want to be?” They went around asking and then they got to me and I said, “Well, I want to be a nurse.” Ohh, my brother, Herbert, just fell out laughing. “Nurses are women.” I looked at him and I said, “Well, I’m a woman but I still want to be a nurse whether you think it or not.” I laughed about it, but I became that. My brother, today he really loves the idea that I stuck with that idea and I brought it into view. 
AJ: I’m on your brother’s team. I deeply admire people who say, at a very early age, “I want to do this,” and then they proceed to do what they wanted to do. 
GA: And I did it. You know, growing up my mother and father . . . I’ll put it this way. My mother was educated but my father wasn’t. My father was a worker, a steel mill worker. He worked hard. 
AJ: Well back then people made really good money in those steel mills. 
GA: He made good money and he was a good dad, but I didn’t have the closeness to my father the way I should have had. I was more geared to my mother, my mother and my grandmothers. The women played a major role in my life. 
AJ: Is that right? 
GA: And being with all these beautiful women, I learned a lot. I learned compassion and I learned how to love and to care about people. I would sit and read and talk with them and learned how to cook. So it was really amazing. I didn’t do boy things, I never did boy things, I never knew how to play baseball. 
AJ: You never played sports? 
GA: No sports, I wasn’t sports orientated at all. So no, no – not for me. But when it came to cooking and cleaning and sewing, I did all that. 
AJ: Oh my goodness. 
GA: Yeah, I did all that. 
AJ: I bet you’re an amazing cook. 
GA: Yes, I am. I have to say so myself, I am. 
AJ: What’s your favorite dish? 
GA: My favorite dish is . . . I’m like a Creole cooking red beans and rice. Gumbo, I can cook a pot of gumbo that you will kick over that table when you taste my gumbo. 
AJ: I love gumbo. 
GA: Oh, I do too. So I learned that through my father’s side of the family because my father was an amazing cook. My mother had the babies but my father did all the cooking, besides other things. 
AJ: Yeah, he was doing quite a few things with babies. 
GA: He was, yes he was. 
AJ: Oh my goodness. So you grew up in this really,really big family, you were the oldest. 
GA: Yes, the oldest. 
AJ: An artistic family, an educated family. 
GA: Yes. 
AJ: Where did you grow up? 
GA: I grew up in . . . well, I was born and raised in Bowling Green, Kentucky. 
AJ: Bowling Green. OK. 
GA: We didn’t stay there long, I remember being in my grandmother and grandfather’s house, they had a huge house and we were all in this house. There was so much love there between my grandparents and my mother. Then we had to . . . my father’s job was here in Chicago and we had to move to Chicago. We moved to Chicago and coming to Chicago, it was really cool back then when I was coming here. We lived in Hyde Park. 
AJ: Oh wow, so you grew up in Hyde Park? 
GA: Yes, and Hyde Park was really nice. 
AJ: Still is. That’s where our President and the First Lady are from. 
GA: Right, Obama – right. And then from there we moved to the Englewood area. That was the worst thing in my life, to go into . . . I hate to say this, an all-Black community, and it was rough. 
AJ: The ghetto in Chicago, let’s just call it what it was. 
GA: Right, it was rough. I went to Englewood High School. But it wasn’t bad when I was going. 
AJ: I went to high school right down the street at Lindblom High School. 
GA: Oh, well you went to the smart girl’s school. I wish I could have went to Lindblom. 
AJ: It was right on the same block but just two or three blocks away from each other. 
GA: Right. But Englewood had a lot of famous people to come out of Englewood. 
AJ: Yes, absolutely. 
GA: Lorraine Hansberry, she did Raison in the Sun and she was famous from Englewood. Oscar Brown, Jr., famous singer and everything. 
AJ: Actor too. 
GA: So I as there. 
AJ: Ms. Jennifer Hudson is from Englewood. 
GA: Right. And me, the entertainment bug hit me for a while. I sung with a band and traveled to New York back and forth singing in nightclubs after I got out of high school. 
AJ: As a female? 
GA: Yeah, yeah. And I was the answer. 
AJ: You were the answer. 
GA: Yes I was. My voice was like . . . I emulated myself after Nancy Wilson. Nancy Wilson was . . . 
AJ: The classiest vocalist . . . 
GA: Right, she was one of my role models. 
AJ: One of the classiest because I can’t hit on Lena Horne or Sarah Vaughan. 
GA: Right, all of them – the great voices. 
AJ: But Nancy is beautiful. 
GA: Nancy was beautiful. She was the . . . I call her the cream of the crème. She was superb. I would sit . . . because my mother played music all the time and my mother would, when she was dancing, she would see Nancy Wilson and Flip Wilson. And my mother would always tell me about this young girl, Nancy Wilson. I got a chance to see her perform. 
AJ: Did you really? 
GA: Yes, and she performed at the Sutherland Hotel, which was a big nightclub with a hotel on the south side of Chicago, th and South Park – somewhere over that way. 
AJ: Right in there near Michigan Avenue . . . 
GA: Right off of Cottage Grove. She was so amazing and I wanted to be Nancy Wilson. So I did my singing and a lot of people would hear me and they were just shocked that I could sing. I did a lot of talent shows at Englewood High School and they loved my singing so I said, “OK, I’m going to get into that.” So I went to New York and auditioned, I did a lot of auditioning and when I got there, I’m thinking I’m going to take New York by storm and I got there, Ronnie Dyson was there and Melba Moore. Oh my God, them two . . . they were perfect when it came to their craft. I got out there thinking I’m going to be right up there with them and they showed me up. And so that discouraged me, I said, “Well, I can’t sing like them, but I’ll try.” But I did little nightclubs and everything up in Harlem. I had a great time, I really had a great time. 
AJ: So you had a professional career. 
GA: Yes, for just a minute. 
AJ: For a brief moment. 
GA: A minute. 
AJ: Well that would have taken you from your committed goal of being a nurse. 
GA: Right, right. It did. 
AJ: But you had to try things. 
GA: I had to try stuff. And that’s the way I was. And church, I went to Greater Metropolitan, which was on th and Wabash, and that church was the most gifted church – for me, because everybody knew my truth and they didn’t ignore me or shun me off. 
AJ: That’s big – for people who don’t know, that’s one of the biggest churches in Chicago. It’s a beautiful church right on Wabash. 
GA: And I have to say the minister at that time was Reverend Ward and Reverend Ward was one of these ministers, he preached and oh my God could he sing. He had a wife named Grace, Grace Ward. And Grace Ward was another singer, gospel singer, and she was really good too. He would always ask me when they had a program, he said, “My child is coming up to sing for me.” I was his child, so I’d get up there and sing my heart out. I just knew I was going to end up being a gospel singer. So during this time, Mahalia Jackson would come to our church all the time. And she heard . . . 
AJ: The greatest gospel singer ever. 
GA: In the world, right. And she heard me sing and she was floored by my singing. 
AJ: What? 
GA: And asked me, she said, “You come into my house because I want you to join my youth group.” And I did. I just knew . . . 
AJ: Really? Mama Gloria, are you kidding me? 
GA: Yes, I’m telling the truth. Mahalia Jackson and I looked up to her to no end. Her voice was so unique and beautiful. 
AJ: She was Dr. King’s personal favorite singer. 
GA: Right. And she was my personal favorite singer. I sang with her youth group for a couple of years and during that time, Jessy Dixon, another gospel singer, he took me under his wing too. So I was traveling back and forth to different churches singing. I learned a lot, but I was still myself – everybody knew I was this girly, prissy thing. I wouldn’t hide it. I wasn’t discriminated by the church – not by my church. A lot of people loved me because I was me, I didn’t try to cover up or hide. 
AJ: Right. And you can say if this is true or not, that the more authentic and honest you are with yourself, the more people tend to respect you. 
GA: They do, they really do. My mother and grandmother always instilled this in me – they said if you’re going to be ashamed of what you are, then don’t do it. And I listened to that. I’m not ashamed of nothing. I got out there, I did it, and I would come home and just do little girly things and twist around the house and everything. But they didn’t tell me, “Oh, you have to stop, you can’t do that.” They didn’t do that. They let me be me. 
AJ: How was the kids in the neighborhood? 
GA: The kids in the neighborhood, there were some that liked me and there was some that didn’t. As I got older, I had more kids in the neighborhood and their families to like me. It was a village, they raised us – if they saw me doing something wrong, they would tell my mother or my grandmother, my father. And I would get punished for it, but they watched me and I’m so glad today that I had them type of people in my life. 
AJ: Wow, yeah. That’s part of the problem for some of the young people in our community today is that they don’t have that village around them to help push them back on track. We all run to the right, to the left . . . 
GA: Right, we run amok. 
AJ: But we got to get pushed back on the path. 
GA: Get pushed back on the path, right. I look at a lot of them that have gotten off the path and they were doing bad things and you never know. I didn’t discriminate against them or talk about them because it could have been me. So you never know what God has in store for you or what life has in store for you. 
AJ: So, I think I know the answer to this question but I’m going to ask it anyway. When was the first time you realized that you were not the gender you were assigned at birth? 
GA: Well, that’s a hard thing to say because I always knew I was a girl, but I knew I was in a boy’s body but I was a girl. When I realized that something was different about me, because it was the way I was being treated by some people. Grown people, during that time I was a kid, could be cruel and mean and they were – they were mean to me. Because at the age . . . when I came to Chicago, at the age of . . . I had to be about four or five years old, somewhere along that line, and my mother and father worked. We had a lady that we would go and stay with her until my parents got home from work and they had a -year-old, this lady had a -year-old son named Frank, I remember him just like it was today. And Frank was and I think I was four or five, and Frank, I guess he knew there was something different about me and he was messing with me. He was doing things that I couldn’t believe that somebody of that age would do to a kid. He did things to me and I knew it was ugly and I didn’t like it, but I kept it quiet. I didn’t tell nobody until I got to the age of and then when I mentioned it to my mother and father what was going on they were angry with me because they said, “How come you didn’t come and tell us?” And I told them, “Who’s going to believe a four or a five year old?” I didn’t know what he was doing to me, but it happened. It did put a dent in my life, I was scared – scared of boys, scared of men. That’s when I knew, as I got older, that it was something about me that attracted these men to me, they figured when you are different, or feminine, people will take advantage of you if nobody else is around and that’s what happened to me. After that I didn’t like older men. In fact, I didn’t like men period because I was afraid of them – they were putting their hands on me. I went into a shell but I still knew I was a girl, but I wasn’t going to let them change me or scare me from who I was supposed to be. 
AJ: Wow. Wow. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. I think abuse, in so many forms, is a really present thing in our communities. 
GA: It’s always been there but it’s more so open and people are aware of it now. 
AJ: And talking more about it. 
GA: More about it, but back then when I was coming up they didn’t talk about it. Everything was . . . 
AJ: Secret. 
GA: You don’t say nothing about that, you don’t tell nobody. It was pushed under the rug and you were supposed to forget about it. But I didn’t forget about none of those things that happened to me because I went through an ugly stage in my life that grown people were taking advantage of people like me and hurting us and during that time, as I got a little bit older – around eight or nine years old, they were raping and killing kids during that time. I remember lots of things about that because they were finding young boys and young girls murdered in a gangway or an alley, in viaducts. I almost became a statistic like that because I was out late going to the candy store in a little skull cap and a little trench coat and my shorts on. 
AJ: Oh wow. 
GA: It was a big pole, I remember that. I saw something peeking up from the pole and when I came out of the candy store, something told me, “Don’t go past the pole, just try to get around it.” And as I was trying to get around it, this black shadow jumped out after me, and it was a man, and if that man had a caught me, I probably would have been dead. I probably would have been dead. 
AJ: Oh wow. 
GA: But I ran home and told my mother and father about it. Mother and father got up off their couch or seat and went back, took me back, to see and I pointed where that happened. They were like that, they were always protective of me. 
AJ: Wow, that’s beautiful to have a supportive family. Did you ever confront Fred . . . Frank? What was his name? 
GA: Frank was his name. No, I didn’t. I was so happy that my mother and father moved out of that building and we got away from them. But it was always in my mind what he had done to me. 
AJ: Absolutely. Well, I mean I think that speaks to the resilience of trans women of color. 
GA: Yes. 
AJ: Just sheer determination to be who we are and to live our truth. 
GA: To live our truth. And as I got older, being a transgender . . . I didn’t know what that meant at the time because . . . 
AJ: Yeah, that word didn’t even exist. 
GA: It didn’t exist. They would call us sissies and so I was a sissy, that was the term they used. 
AJ: I remember that. 
GA: And I didn’t like it. Oh, they’d point fingers, “There’s goes that sissy.” And I’m just angry about it. So when I got out of high school, because in high school I had lots of friends but they were girls, females. So I was with the female group. The guys . . . some guys were nice to me and some weren’t. In high school, when I got out of high school, I started going out. I was going to Southeastern Junior College, I remember that. 
AJ: OK, yeah. 
GA: You know, college – OK, I get a chance to go out and hang around. It was this place called The Parkside on 51st Street, right off of Cottage Grove. This was the watering hole for sissies. I would go get off the bus coming from school at st Street, because we lived . . . we lived where? In the Hyde Park area but I was more or less going west. 
AJ: West, OK. 
GA: So on Fridays when I would get out of school, this club called The Parkside Lounge was a booming club. I would see these guys out there, all these guys and I was just thrilled to see this. I would see guys in high heels and earrings and they’d be out there just . . . 
AJ: Sashaying. 
GA: Right. 
AJ: Twirling as the children would say today. 
GA: Yeah. And it was men going into these clubs and partying with these people and I’m saying to myself, “OK.” So I started hanging out outside because I wasn’t old enough to get into the club. And the guys would come out and talk and everything. So then that opened doors for me because I said these are the people I should . . . 
AJ: These are my people. 
GA: And they were. I got to know them and when I got of age to go in the club I did. It was a place where they would hold hands and kiss and do things, have fun. But when they left the club, they were straight men trying to . . . 
AJ: Fit in. 
GA: Yes, fit in with society. So that opened the doors for me. I said well, this is where I’m going to hang out – and I did, I did. I met so many wonderful people and it was a group of people that I got involved with that were much older than me and they were professional people – social workers, school teachers, lawyers, doctors. I’m not going to mention names because they might have some people out here today, but it was a doctor that I met and he was a professor at Chicago State University – well known, married and had kids. And we became friends, special friends. 
AJ: Special friends, OK. 
GA: And I learned a lot from these people because they taught me how to survive, how to carry myself in such a manner that people would be proud of me. And I loved them because they were the type of people, they stuck with each other and we cared about each other. When I was just going to school, I wasn’t working or anything. I would go and have lunch and sit down and talk with them and everything. And then they had other kids that would come from everywhere that were put out of their homes. We helped them. We learned how to help one another, which today – they don’t do that. They have cliques, we didn’t have cliques back then, but they’ve got cliques today. If you’re not pretty in certain groups, they don’t want to be bothered with you. If you’re educated in one group, they don’t want to be bothered with lower class people. Which I hate that they’re doing that today. 
AJ: I know. 
GA: We are all in this community and we need to stick and help each other, but they don’t do it – they don’t do it. But I do admire the educated trans girls, such as yourself. 
AJ: Thank you. 
GA: I mean that are out here doing things – opening doors and letting people know we’re smart, we’re brilliant, and we’re here. 
AJ: Wow – wow. I love that so much, Gloria. You answer this question however you want to, I’m going to put it out there because I love you and I know what this journey is about, having been out years myself. Have you had any medical interventions in your transition to becoming a woman? To the extent that you feel comfortable talking about it. 
GA: I remember in I met a guy that lived in Wisconsin and he would come to the city and I’d go out with him and everything. This guy presented me with this issue about he wanted to . . . for me to be his woman. 
AJ: All right. 
GA: He wanted me to have surgery and I didn’t know anything about surgery because I didn’t investigate it. I heard a little bit, but not much. 
AJ: Well, and it wasn’t that popular. 
GA: No, it wasn’t. So I went home and I told my sister about it, I didn’t tell nobody else – I told her about it. And she told me if I did that she would stop speaking to me. I love my sister that much and I said, “Oh, I don’t want her to stop speaking to me,” so I never did think about it no more after that. Then when I broke away from her, I was out there and then the thought started coming into my mind. I am a girl, so why not have the surgery and get it done and I’m official. So I had one girlfriend named Julia, Ms. Julia, she had the surgery. She did it and she loved it and she showed it to me, and I said, “Oh my gosh.” 
AJ: Right. 
GA: And I’m thinking about the pain you have to go through to do it. So in , at the county hospital, I did it. I had the surgery. 
AJ: At Cook County Hospital. 
GA: At Cook County, they was doing it but it was done in a way that nobody knew about it. You had to go through so many . . . and they were doing it on the green card. 
AJ: I was born in Cook County Hospital and I had a green card all my childhood. 
GA: Yes. Well they were doing it on green card. 
AJ: Which is like medical . . . like Medicaid or Medical Assistance. 
GA: Right, right. So I did it. I didn’t do it because I wanted to get a man, I did it for myself to be completed. 
AJ: To confirm your identity, right? 
GA: Right. And it was painful. I thought I was going to die and it wasn’t as modern as it is today because back then it was done but nerve endings and all that, they didn’t do none of that. They weren’t advanced like they . . . or if they were they weren’t telling us about it. 
AJ: Right, exactly. 
GA: So, I did it. It was OK. 
AJ: In . 
GA: Yes, it was OK. I thought it would really change my life but it made it just a little bit better, but not that much. A lot of guys I was going out with and . . . today it’s really . . . they don’t want you to do a lot of guys. I did it and I wish I didn’t do it. 
AJ: Really? 
GA: Right, I wish I didn’t do it. I wish I could have waited until later on in life when they got more advanced with it. People, when I tell them that they hate to hear it, but we weren’t having orgasms and everything, it was just cut out. 
AJ: And nothing re-attached or . . . 
GA: Oh no, your money was not well spent, I’ll put it that way. But now today, oh you get the nerve endings and . . . 
AJ: Orgasms and lubrication. 
GA: Right. And so I did that and I went through a traumatic experience because I wanted a husband and I had a boyfriend named Maurice, he’s not here today. I wish I hadn’t done it back then. I wish I could have waited until now to do it but I’m too old now to think about that. 
AJ: Why do you say that? 
GA: Well because . . . I don’t know. Because I think ohhh, OK. But I would enjoy the feelings, you know. But back then I wish I hadn’t done it. It wasn’t fulfillment to me. So I lost out. I’m glad it’s over with, I’ve done it and it’s OK. 
AJ: And you are who you are. 
GA: It made me more aware of who I am now. But I lost a lot of boyfriends when I found . . . when they found out what was down there. They said, “Ohhh, OK.” And then I had one boyfriend tell me, Raymond was his name – I won’t mention any last names, he told me, he said, “If I wanted a woman I would have married a woman.” And that hurt me. So I said, “Oh my God.” 
AJ: Yes, I am a woman. 
GA: That’s what I thought. I said OK. But I lost him. And today . . . I’m a cougar. I like younger men and I feel good with younger men. 
AJ: Yes – yes, yes. 
GA: So I’m happy about that. I’m having fun. I do my thing and I’ve had some good boyfriends, some real good boyfriends. 
AJ: So you mentioned to me the other day that you might be tying the knot. 
GA: Yes, yes. His name is LeRoy, he lives in Savannah. 
AJ: Savannah, Georgia. 
GA: Yes. And he’s a country boy, southern hospitality. 
AJ: Southern gentlemen. 
GA: Yeah, he knows how to treat a lady. He’s younger. 
AJ: How old is he? 
GA: He’s . He’s and I’m . 
AJ: You are a cougar, Mama. 
GA: Yes I am and I love him. I love him. He is so nice and we’ve been dating . . . I met him online. 
AJ: Look at you. 
GA: Right. And don’t believe the hype that you have to be . . . you do have to be leery of who you meet online because there’s a lot of predators on there too. 
AJ: Yes. 
GA: But he’s nice, he turned out to be nice. He’s sweet. Yeah, I’m going to do it before I kick the bucket – to say I did it. 
AJ: So you’re going to get married. 
GA: Yes, I’m going to get married and I hope . . . let’s see, I hope by December or January, because I’m writing a book and when my book is out, I plan to be married. 
AJ: Wow. What’s the title of your book? 
GA: I haven’t gotten a title yet. I’m thinking about one because I was getting ready to say the . . . one title that sticks in my head is The Killing of Sister George and George was my boy’s name. 
AJ: The Killing of Sister George. That could be a powerful title, Mama. 
GA: Yes. And I’m thinking about that because I did kill George. And George was a part of my life that I didn’t like and when Gloria came out . . . 
AJ: You gave birth to Gloria. 
GA: Yes, I got rid of George . . . George has gone somewhere. I don’t know where he’s at but he’s gone. I was thinking about that, The Killing of Sister George. 
AJ: Tell me about how the name Gloria came to be. 
GA: OK. George is my boy’s name at that time and I had a sister named Lori . . . L-o-r-i. And I said to myself, I said, “OK, G-l-o-r-i-a.” And I came up with that name. Because I love my sister’s name, Lori, and then I said, Gloria. So that’s how I came up with it. 
AJ: That’s beautiful. 
GA: I wanted a name . . . I didn’t want to get with another name, because I wanted my name to be close with the initial G. 
AJ: Wow, I love that. That’s powerful. So, you’re getting married, you’re writing a book. When this marriage happens I’m assuming you’re going to relocate to Savannah. 
GA: Savannah, Georgia – yeah. I’m going back south and I want to do this because this guy makes me happy and I want to get married one time, just like I said, before I leave this earth – to say that I did everything that I set out to do, I did it. I want to be happy and I think that will really make me happy. Everybody needs somebody in their life and I want this special man. I’ve had quite a few men and they turn out to be complete jerks, but this one . . . he’s an older guy, . Because usually I don’t go over years, they were down there . . . , , and . And, that’s my goal and I’m going to get there. 
AJ: You’re going to make it happen. 
GA: I’m going to get there. 
AJ: I love you for that, Mama Gloria. 
GA: And then, about Charm School. I was going to the Center on Halsted about five years ago and I would sit there and go to the senior luncheons there which they have called SAGE. I was a part of SAGE. We’d sit there and have lunch and senior voices and all that stuff with a bunch of old queers and queens. But I enjoyed sitting there because I learned a lot from them. 
AJ: Do they still be dissing and giving the dirt up on everybody? 
GA: Yes, right. But when you get to be an old queen it’s even worse. 
AJ: It’s even worse – oh-oh. 
GA: Because we’re finger popping and reading each other and we go through our mood changes. A lot of people don’t realize this, that men and transgender, we go through hormonal changes. Sitting there with a bunch of queens, old queens and old trans men and everything, all these hormones are hitting each other and I sit there and I laugh and I learned a lot from them. We go through the change of life, I’m going through it now. I sit there and after we have our little group sessions and everything, I would go down to the main floor, the lobby in the Center on Halsted, and these young kids – femme boy queens and sissies or whatever you want to call them, they would come through there scantily dressed and shaking and shimmying everything. I’m sitting there looking at them and saying, “Oh my God.” People are coming in there with their children – little children, and these girls are out there shaking and almost giving you table top dances. I saw this and I said, “Uh-uh, you all can’t do that.” Children, when they’re coming up, they’re impressionable. They see this and they think, “Oh, this is what I want to do – get up and shake and finger pop.” So I told the girls about it and I told them, “You know, during the day time you don’t wear hooker’s outfit during the day. What you do at night is done in the dark so you don’t know . . . you’ve got an excuse, it’s OK – I can do this.” So, I sit there and I got on them about it and a lot of the girls they paid attention to me. And then all of a sudden a bell rang in my head – ding! “You ought to start a Charm School.” And I said, “OK.” So I brought it to the attention of the Center on Halsted. I went to the CEO and told him about it and it was one lady in particular, Ms. Joy, she was there at the time. She was in my corner with it and we did it. It took a little while for it to start up but it did come through. And during that time, I had groups coming in and would sit with them and doing things. We were having such a great time – still have such a great time when I’m doing it, but I’m not doing it as much because I’m too old. My patience is short. 
AJ: It’s short. 
GA: But they let me do it and it went over well. During that time I remember Precious Davis came to the Center, that was the first time . . . because they brought her in and she was cute but she didn’t know who she wanted to be at that time, because she was still wearing boy’s clothes but she was androgynous – you didn’t know if it was a man or you didn’t know if it was a woman. She brought so much energy into the program and we connected and I told her she’s my child, and today I’m so proud of her. But the Charm School, I was so proud of that too. I did so many things for that group. 
AJ: So she came through Charm School? 
GA: Yeah, she was working there. 
AJ: She was working at the Center but you were mentoring her, you were grooming her. 
GA: Right, and we met and she was supposed to come in and work with me. She said, “Well, I believe you can do it all by yourself.” And she had faith in me and I did it by myself because we had other people to come in. I’m going to mention one, but I’m not going to say her name, that came in and she wasn’t Charm School material. She wasn’t the type of girl that you wanted to be around. She wasn’t . . . she was OK, but she wasn’t . . . and she had an attitude. She thought she was going to come in and take over and I’m like this, you know. I’m not going to do anything to get along with you, this was my baby, my project that I wanted to do and you’re not going to come in and move me out. 
AJ: And take me out. 
GA: And I let her know that. So she dropped it, she saw that I wasn’t going to stand back and let her . . . and so she left and when Precious came in Precious was totally differently. I knew Precious was the lady, the young girl that I admired. And Charm School went on from there and Precious, she gave me a lot of help and support. 
AJ: So she helped you as well? 
GA: Yes she did, yes she did. Just like I said, I look at her today and I am so amazed by her and I’m so amazed by the other girls – you, yourself, and so many. 
AJ: Every time I look up Precious is at the White House or she’s marrying this beautiful transgender man. 
GA: Yes. 
AJ: They call him the Trans Obama. 
GA: Yeah. And it’s amazing. I can’t wait. To be surrounded by all these beautiful people, and I’m going to put it like this . . . I’m the stem and then all these beautiful flowers come out around the stem, around me – but I’m the stem. 
AJ: Oh, that is so beautiful. I’m just thrilled to be one of those flowers. 
GA: Yes you are. And I thank God for letting me live this long, to witness this. It is a tribute and an honor to have you wonderful, young people that are making moves and waves. Because when I was coming up, we didn’t make moves and waves like that. But I had older people that taught me, but if they were living today, they would be proud too. 
AJ: That’s why you’re here. You inspired this amazing play. 
GA: Yes. 
AJ: Called Charm. 
GA: Charm, right. 
AJ: It’s about the work of . . . 
GA: Gloria Allen, yeah. 
AJ: How does that feel to be the impetus for a stage play that has opened last night to an amazing opening night crowd? 
GA: Yes. And today I’m still . . . it feels like it’s a reality that has come true for me. I sit back . . . I can’t believe that I did this and people are still amazed by it. Sometimes I have to sit down and take a straight pin and stick it in me to see if I’m alive. 
AJ: Oh my goodness, yes. 
GA: And Philip Dawkins, who wrote the play, I was so thrilled by him coming into my class and watching me interact with these young people. BJ, which was the producer of it, he saw an article in the newspaper . . . 
AJ: Right, because there was so much media attention around this project that you were doing. 
GA: Yeah, media attention about that and I’m saying to myself, “Who are all these people coming to me and asking me about this and that.” I’m telling them, “This is what I wanted to do, this is my baby and I’m going to see it grow up.” And it did – it did. Because the Tribune in Chicago, they did the articles, I’ve talked to WBEC, which there is a girl there . . . I forgot her name, but I went to school with her mother. Goodwin, her last name is Goodwin – her mother’s name was Yvonne and her mother was a girlfriend of mine in high school that . . . we had our groups and she was there with me all the time. 
AJ: Supporting you. 
GA: Yes. She wasn’t nasty toward me and Yvonne was so beautiful and so kind to me, all the girls in high school were kind to me. I have to say that. All those girls that are out there and up there, I thank them because they were there. And they still recognize me. I have a girlfriend now that lives in Chicago, her name is Dottie and Dottie, from grammar school throughout . . . up until today, we’re the best of friends. 
AJ: Is that right? 
GA: Yes, the best of friends. I call her, she calls me, we keep in touch with each other. I used to go to her house as a sissy boy and her family – they didn’t lock the door or hide her. They let me come in the house and I’d sit with them and talk. We’re still friends today. That’s amazing when you can sit with a bunch of people that knew you in yester days and the years have gone on and we’re still the best of friends. 
AJ: I know, not a lot of transgender-identified people can say that. 
GA: Could say that, right. 
AJ: Because our friends leave us, sometimes our families leave us. 
GA: Right, they do. As they say, God – he makes no mistakes. By him having transgender people in the world, God didn’t make a mistake – he knew what he was doing when he put us down here. And I think him. 
AJ: So are you still involved with the church? 
GA: Yes I am. Every now and then I go to the church and I speak to a group of people at the church and they listen. When I go there it’s just like . . . they give me Hollywood treatment. 
AJ: Oh really? 
GA: They really do – and I love that. I love that. 
AJ: You deserve Hollywood treatment, you are a superstar in my eyes. 
GA: They give me that. And to have the church behind you is a big thing. 
AJ: Absolutely. 
GA: There’s a lot of churches out here that are against homosexual and gay people. 
AJ: And trans people. 
GA: Right. And I think trans people, just like you said. Because trans people, we’re the most hated group in any society. They will throw us under the bus and run the bus over two and three times. 
AJ: And that’s not a euphemism, that’s a reality. Some person . . . just three weeks ago a trans person got ran over by a car and they ran him, it was a trans man, two or three times. 
GA: Right. That’s what I’m talking about. People fail to realize that we are all God’s children no matter what. He made us and if you don’t like us then you really don’t like the Lord, you don’t like his work. 
AJ: We’re just another representation of what it means to be human. 
GA: Yes. 
AJ: Of God’s creation. 
GA: Of God’s creation, and that is so true. I tell everybody – I say, judgment day – whenever that day comes, judgment day, I believe, is the day you die anyway and when you go before the Lord you’ve got to answer for your mistakes. If you hate a transgender person somewhere down the line, you didn’t like God’s work and you’re going to be punished for it. They don’t believe that. Now suppose you go up in heaven and we meet the creator and he or she turns out to be a transgender person. 
AJ: Right. 
GA: Then, hey – you messed up. 
AJ: You really messed up – oh my goodness. What was your experience like working with the Center on Halsted? 
GA: My experience there, it was good but it was confusing at times because some of the staff members that were there, they claimed they were in our corners but a lot of them weren’t. A lot of them that would come through to work there, they came through there to get status and then leave. They’d go someplace else. I think that’s sort of bad to be that way. I could name a few people and get egg thrown in my face, but they did – they would come through there and they’d work maybe six months to a year, they moved on somewhere. They’re not there to help the community, they’re there to help themselves. Yup. And I’m still dedicated to the Center on Halsted. They’re not fair enough, but I’m still dedicated. 
AJ: You’re still dedicated – because you’re making them become a little more fair every day. 
GA: Every day. Yes, it’s a tedious job but it has to be done. 
AJ: Right. I admire that. What do you think the relationship is between the transgender community and the broader gay, lesbian, bi-sexual community? 
GA: Oh, I’m glad you asked that and I’m going to really get ‘em. 
AJ: I’m glad I asked you too. 
GA: I’m glad you asked that. The gay community is a divided community, it really is. When I say this they’ll probably get mad. But transgender group, we’re discriminated even by our own kind. Gay men, they don’t like transgender women or transgender men. It’s a big gap between us, you know. I’ve listened to . . . I’m doing some research now and I’m listening to a lot. Down-low brothers, the ones that are married to women or they’ve got girlfriends, but they sneak off with a transgender girl, they don’t like us. They really don’t like us. And when they find out – you know, I’ve gone online and I’ve talked to a lot of down-low brothers and the down-low brothers, “I don’t like femmes.” That’s their term, “femmes”. What are you talking about femmes? I’m not a femme. And they do that so loosely. I’m a transgender woman, either you accept me or you don’t. A lot of the down-low brothers, they’re masculine – some of them look good, some of them look like hell. But, they consider themselves men but they’re after other men that are like them – that looks like them, but they’re all doing the same thing we do. They’re getting . . . just like we are. 
AJ: Exactly. 
GA: It’s so sad that they’re like that. And then you have the group of transgender girls that have gone and had black market injections of silicone in their lips and in their faces and in their butts and everything, and they all look alike to me. 
AJ: That’s true. 
GA: I’m going to do a comparison. They had a series on TV a long time ago called Wayland and Madame. 
AJ: I don’t think . . . 
GA: They had these dummies on there and Miss Jiffy. Miss Jiffy was a black doll with silicone cheeks and lips, she looked just like Pearl Bailey with a snatch pony tail and a white one, and they would just be back and forth and everything. 
AJ: So they were little puppets. 
GA: Little puppets – yeah. 
AJ: I remember this show now, yes. 
GA: That’s what these girls look like to me. They go to the same doctor and get the same silicone shots in them and they all look alike. You can smack a girl in the face and she’s still going to be smiling. So I’m saying to myself, “Oh, you’re in pain,” and she’s still smiling. It’s so sad that they do that but they’re so divided. 
AJ: It’s dangerous too. 
GA: Yes it’s dangerous. And I’ve told them about that, because that stuff shifts on you. You might have cheek bones for a couple of years and you get hit . . . 
AJ: And now you’ve got jaws. 
GA: You’ve got jaws or a fat neck. 
AJ: Exactly. 
GA: Or your ankles are so swollen or so big from the injection in your hips. And then, I look at them and I said to myself, “What are you doing to yourself.” These huge asses and these pencil legs. How can those legs hold that ass up? But it’s all from the injections and they think it’s pretty. It’s pretty for a while. 
AJ: For a little while. 
GA: For a while, then what that stuff . . . gravity falls and you’re messed up. But we are divided. Then they’ve got the trans boys out there, they’re doing their thing. I might get some more egg thrown in my face because the trans . . . 
AJ: You’ve got to speak your truth, Mama. 
GA: Yes. Trans boys are out there doing each other, the trans girls are doing each other, and I’m saying to myself, “They are so confused,” and this umbrella with all these acronyms – LBGTQP – whatever. How can they know what they are? It used to be you were either gay or lesbian. That is completely out now. 
AJ: Yes, that’s out. 
GA: And they never did put T in there at all, it was either just like I said – gay or lesbian. Now they got the gay, bi-sexual, now transsexual, queer. I’m not a queer. I hate that term, “Being a queer.” Nobody is queer. Maybe crazy, but not queer. 
AJ: I love that. 
GA: Yeah, and it’s so . . . cis gender, pan gender, there’s so much out there and it’s confusing. It really is. 
AJ: It is – it’s a lot. The world is changing. 
GA: Yes, it has changed tremendously. 
AJ: Speaking of which, one of the things that happened in the play . . . there was a scene where there was a conversation about the world “tranny”. 
GA: Yes. 
AJ: What do you think about the word? What’s the history of the word? Do you think that . . . because RuPaul go into a lot of trouble about saying tranny, tell me what you think about the word. 
GA: I think tranny is a term that’s used loosely. Tranny . . . I think a tranny is just when you’re coming out, you are tranny. And then as you get older you lose that title and you become a transgender or a trans female or male. 
AJ: Or woman. 
GA: Or woman, yes. But tranny is for . . . with a baby they say, “Oh, let me put you on a training bra.” A training bra helps you to firm and lift – so that’s the way I look at it. I guess I was a tranny years ago but now I’m a woman. Don’t call me a tranny, I’m not a tranny anymore. And, it’s a term that’s used loosely. It’s nothing wrong with it if you put it in steps, tranny – transgender, trans man or male or female. 
AJ: I like that. What about Miss Caitlyn. I guess she would be a tranny. 
GA: She’s a tranny. 
AJ: In your definition, she’s a tranny. 
GA: She’s late coming out and she’s out and she thinks she’s an authority on everything and she’s not. She can’t tell me nothing. I can tell her, but she can’t tell me. I’ve experienced a lot but she’s getting the recognition because she’s rich and she’s white. 
AJ: You better speak – come on Mama Gloria. 
GA: She’s not pretty, the money makes her pretty. 
AJ: Right, exactly. 
GA: If I were to look at her in the yester years and she was coming out, I would say to myself, “No, I don’t think I want to look like her or be like her.” But she’s riding on the coattails of all the transgender women that have been out there for years and she’s getting recognition and these girls that have been out there for years should have the recognition but they don’t have it. 
AJ: Wow. Mama Gloria, I’m looking at my clock and I’m so sad because it’s almost 10:30 and I know you’ve got to catch this flight to get back to Chicago. 
GA: Right. And I’ve had such a wonderful time and believe me, if we can do it again, I’m here. 
AJ: Well we will do it again. I’m coming to Chicago so we can sit down and do it again. Is there anything that I didn’t ask you about that you want to tell me about – or you want people to know about? 
GA: What I want people to know about? That we’re all human beings and that it takes all kind of people to make the world go around and people need to know that. Nobody is going to be the same, no matter what you think or how you think, because if everybody was born alike this would be a boring-ass world. 
AJ: Right. 
GA: And they need to know that. You need to know that it’s all kind of people to make up the world and we need to know that and we need to embrace that and love that - we really do, because we are all human beings and we bleed the same blood whether you’re trans, gay, lesbian, bi- sexual. And another thing I have to get on the bi-sexual men, they need to change their minds and their thinking too. They really do. 
AJ: Wow. Well this has been an absolute joy and my honor and my pleasure to share the morning with you. 
GA: Thank you. 
AJ: To spend time with you yesterday. We had a lovely dinner and we went to see a beautiful play and everybody just loved and praised you. It was such a beautiful moment. 
GA: And I have to tell you, you are such a good host and interviewer. I love you, I’m so proud of you. You keep up doing the good work that you’re doing because you are amazing. 
AJ: We’re about to change the world around here, Mama Gloria. 
GA: Yes indeed. 
AJ: Good-bye, until we meet again. 
GA: OK – fun, fun. 