 
 
 
 
Phillipe Cunningham Narrator   Andrea Jenkins Interviewer 
 
 
 
 
 
The Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies University of Minnesota 
September 25, 2015 
 
 
 
 
 

  
  
 
The Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story, while providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source material about the transgender community.  The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for current and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public. 
The Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300 individuals over the next three years.  Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and experiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality.  This project will be led by Andrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist.  Andrea brings years of experience working in government, non-profits and LGBT organizations.  If you are interested in being involved in this exciting project, please contact Andrea. 
Andrea Jenkins jenki120@umn.edu (612) 625-4379 
 
 
 
 
  
Andrea Jenkins  -AJ 1 
Phillipe Cunningham -PC 2 
 3 
 4 
AJ:  My name is Andrea Jenkins and I am the oral historian for the Transgender Oral History Project 5 at the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  Today is September 25, 2015, and I am 6 at the home of Phillipe Cunningham in North Minneapolis.  Im going to ask you, if you dont 7 mind, introducing yourself and maybe spelling your name for our transcriber, but also tell me 8 what your preferred gender pronouns are, what was your gender assigned at birth, and then 9 what is your sexual orientation? 10 
 11 
PC: So, my name is Phillipe Cunningham, spelled P-h-i-l-l-i-p-e and my preferred gender pronouns 12 are male, so masculine he/him/his.  My sexual orientation is gay or queer and I was assigned 13 female at birth.   14 
 15 
AJ: Great.  So Phillipe, tell me about your earliest memory. 16 
 17 
PC: My earliest memory.  Honestly, the first true memory that I can hold on to very clearly was a 18 very conscious decision and awareness that I had at about four years old, when I was in 19 preschool, I remember feeling self-conscious because I could tell that I was the only brown kid in 20 my class  black or brown.  So looking around and noticing, and then noticing how people 21 interacted differently with me and my family.  I really remember that very clearly. 22 
 23 
AJ: So your first memory was around racial identity. 24 
 25 
PC: Yeah, it was around social isolation.   26 
 27 
AJ: So tell me a little bit about where you went to school and where you grew up. 28 
 29 
PC: Whenever people ask me where Im from, I always make the joke that Im from the middle of 30 the cornfields in Illinois, which is actually a very accurate description of where Im from.  So, 31 where Im from is called Streator, Illinois. 32 
 33 
AJ: Streator? 34 
 35 
PC: Yes, its about two hours southwest of Chicago.  People often like to ask, Oh, thats a suburb?  36 Im like, No, it is very far away.  37 
 38 
AJ: Is it near Joliet?  Or is it past . . .? 39 
 40 
PC: Further southwest than that, about another hour.  And the nearest highway is like 20 minutes in 41 any direction.  So it takes a minute to get there.  When I was little . . . 42 
 43 
AJ: So its literally an urban community  farm community? 44 
 45 
PC: Its just very blue collar.  My dad built tractors for 38 years, my mom was a dry cleaner.  Its just 1 very blue collar.  We were the only interracial family, really Black family, for a good chunk of my 2 early childhood so I just had an awareness of that at a very young age. 3 
 4 
AJ: So you went to elementary school in Streator, Illinois? 5 
 6 
PC: Yes, I did.  I went to pre-K through 12, all in Streator.  We lived there my whole life, 7 unfortunately.  And then at 18, it was only probably three weeks or so after I turned 18 that I 8 left Streator and Ive never lived there since. 9 
 10 
AJ: So you had this memory of feeling different and I suspect if you stayed in that town that whole 11 time, probably the racial make-up didnt change that dramatically. 12 
 13 
PC: It actually did.   14 
 15 
AJ: Did it? 16 
 17 
PC: In middle school they . . . I do believe they started closing Cabrini-Green on the south side and, I 18 think, a few other housing projects and the city was giving them housing vouchers outside of the 19 city.  And so when I was in 7th grade, there was a huge flood of Black families that moved into 20 Streator from the south side of Chicago. 21 
 22 
AJ: What? 23 
 24 
PC: All of a sudden I went from being the only Black kid to being one of like . . . 50.   25 
 26 
AJ: Wow, this might be for another interview, but the cultural shock of being moved from the inner 27 city to essentially a rural community . . .  28 
 29 
PC: Yes, it is a rural community. 30 
 31 
AJ: It had to be really traumatic for those families that were shipped out. 32 
 33 
PC: Yeah.  It also was a huge shock to the local community because they had such little exposure to 34 Black folks and there already were such stereotypes.  And then when you have folks who . . . like 35 some folks who were living in the worst conditions in Chicago economically, health outcomes 36 when you have those folks then removed from that environment and put into an environment 37 of racist white people, then all of a sudden . . . so there was a huge clash that happened and, as 38 a result, I became the tragic mulatto.  The white kids were mean to me my whole life and now 39 the Black kids were mean to me too.  So, like, from the slave narrative  I totally turned into that 40 and that became my narrative once they moved.  I thought it was going to be great. 41 
 42 
AJ: So you experienced some bullying or what we would call bullying, but really some negative 43 things that were going on at school? 44 
 45 
PC: When I reflect back on my childhood, a consistent thing that really just resonated throughout 1 my childhood was social isolation and a lot of rejection.  I didnt really start to experience true 2 friendships probably until this past year or so, just because when I was growing up there was 3 always a distance between me and my peers, there always was a sense of not quite being 4 friends.  It never really felt like people were invested in my well-being, I was always on the 5 periphery. 6 
 7 
AJ: Why do you think that is?  I know its a difficult question to answer. 8 
 9 
PC: Ive spent a lot of time reflecting on it just to really kind of heal from those experiences and to 10 be able to do differently now and break those patterns of experience.  But anyway . . . what was 11 the question again? 12 
 13 
AJ: Just kind of why do you think that those relationships dont always seem to connect like those 14 friendships you talked about - it feels like you were kind of distant or had been distant in the 15 past? 16 
 17 
PC: Yeah, I think that in my hometown, in particular, those formidable ages of connection and 18 community, there were a couple of issues.  One is that Im Black, and so that doesnt help, and 19 the second was that my family was really working class. Both my parents came from extreme 20 poverty.  My mom has a criminal record so those sort of class-related things kind of also really 21 determined it.  So yeah, I just never really connected. 22 
 23 
AJ: That makes perfect sense.  So, what were your mom and dad like?  Did you have brothers and 24 sisters?  Were you an only child? 25 
 26 
PC: My parents were married before they married each other and so they have children from their 27 previous marriages and in both cases, their exs got full custody.  What that means is that when 28 they got together and had me, I was essentially raised as an only child with half-siblings very 29 briefly rotating in and out, but never really forming a relationship with any of them.  They were 30 also all much older than me, at least eight years older.  My parents are awesome though.  I hold 31 so much space for them because, honestly, they did the best that they could with what they 32 had.  Both are really quite remarkable given the circumstances in which they were raised.  They 33 werent perfect but I hold so much space for the experiences that theyve had and who they are 34 as a result of that.  One thing that I take ownership of is the privilege of experiencing 35 unconditional love.  I take ownership of that privilege because that gives me a different 36 foundation to build on  like I have an anchor, I know what that feels like so I can give that, I can 37 produce that.  And also, its a sense of stability that a lot of folks dont get.  So I recognize that.   38 
 39 
AJ: Wow.  When was the first time you realized that you were not the gender you were assigned at 40 birth? 41 
 42 
PC: Thats always an interesting question because I feel like my story doesnt follow the traditional 43 narrative.  I remember very clearly, also around four or five years old . . . I always thought my 44 dad, my dad used to be a body builder and hes still really fit, I just remember being really 45 envious of his body and I remember also feeling like, Why wont my body look like that?  I 46 
remember very vividly one year for my birthday, or just even as a surprise, my dad got me half-1 pound dumbbells so that we could work out together when I was really little.  I remember telling 2 my mom, When I grow up I want to be a boy.  It was just kind of like I was really confused as 3 to why I wasnt one already.  She said, Thats just not what people do, thats not a thing.  And I 4 was like, OK.  And then didnt re-examine that for 20 more years.  I was a very compliant child 5 and I lived in a world where my parents . . . I just complied with what my parents said.  So my 6 mom said that wasnt a thing and so I said that wasnt a thing.  And then when I was 18, I moved 7 to the Bay area and that was the first exposure that I had to the trans folks, because I went to 8 Mills College and there were quite a few trans men on the campus.  That was the first time I 9 allowed myself to explore my gender presentation a little bit.  I always prided myself on being a 10 lipstick lesbian until I was about 18. 11 
 12 
AJ: Is Mills College a . . .  13 
 14 
PC: Its a womens college. 15 
 16 
AJ: All womens.   17 
 18 
PC: Yes, but it gave a lot of space for trans men, I felt like.   19 
 20 
AJ: And its in . . .? 21 
 22 
PC: Oakland.   23 
 24 
AJ: So there were a lot of trans guys on campus? 25 
 26 
PC: Yeah, or people teetering on that.  So I gave myself about six months of being butch, I gave 27 myself a good try, and then . . . 28 
 29 
AJ: So you had come out as lesbian? 30 
 31 
PC: Yeah, I came out as a lesbian right before I went to college at 18, so it was the summer I turned 32 18.  And to be honest, I was a terrible lesbian.  I was like, Im a lesbian, and I literally . . . this is 33 a real-life story, I was wearing a rainbow bracelet from . . .  34 
 35 
AJ: Some Pride parade or something. 36 
 37 
PC: Yeah, exactly  the first one I went to.  And I arrived at campus, I wanted to get involved with 38 the undergraduate student government.  I went to the office, sat down with the vice president, I 39 thought he was cute and then discretely took off the rainbow bracelet.  Terrible lesbian, but I 40 gave it a good try, I gave it a good go  because thats what it felt like.   41 
 42 
AJ: Like you were trying to be a lesbian, but you werent really a lesbian - you were trying, right?   43 
 44 
PC: Well, I was trying but it was what I thought I was because I knew that something wasnt aligned.  45 My sense of identity never could quite gel so it was a lot of searching, which is why . . . I am 46 interested, well I was more so, now its like I allow myself just to accept that Im just interested 1 in masculinity.  So I was a lipstick lesbian, essentially, from 18 to 20 or so, then I was butch for 2 six months, and then during that time became so infatuated with one of my . . . I did martial 3 arts, one of my teammates, and I was like, Ohh, he is real cute  oh, oh.  And here I am rocking 4 polos and cargo shorts, looking real butch, and then had kind of a moment of clarity of this 5 presentation doesnt feel right, this identity doesnt feel right.  Then I kind of shifted over to 6 being more feminine again, and queer identified  I joke around that I was mostly straight, and 7 then . . . so when I was in college at DePaul University, I took a Gay American History class to 8 fulfill a multicultural requirement and the professor divvied up the syllabus  you read that 9 chapter and then presented questions and facilitated a conversation.  I was captivated by the 10 idea of gay trans people.  I logically understand it, but I dont get it.  I just cant quite wrap my 11 mind around it, but I always though remember understanding it to some degree and bringing 12 that up in conversations, Well trans people can be gay too, but still not fully understanding 13 what that felt like or looked like, because I hadnt actually met a gay trans person.  So, I picked 14 that topic, I picked that.  I read it, I read the story of Lou Sullivan, who was an activist out of San 15 Francisco  he was a gay trans man with a partner and ended up dying from AIDS, during the 16 AIDS epidemic.  So I read his story and I closed it and pushed it away and had this moment 17 where I was just like . . . absolutely, 100% certain, I was like, Oh my God, Im a gay man.  It was 18 a very clear connection.   19 
 20 
AJ: And so, you said, this happened at DePaw? 21 
 22 
PC: DePaul.   23 
 24 
AJ: Oh, DePaul.  So back in Chicago, so you transferred from Mills? 25 
 26 
PC: Yes. 27 
 28 
AJ: How long did you stay at Mills? 29 
 30 
PC: I transferred actually twice.  I started at Southern Illinois University-Carbondale, spent three 31 semesters there, then I spent three semester at Mills, and then I finished at DePaul.  And I did 32 summer sessions at UC-Berkeley.  So I explored a whole bunch while I was out . . . 33 
 34 
AJ: No, Im just trying to get the story. 35 
 36 
PC: So I graduated from DePaul and I transitioned there at the end of my junior year.  It was during 37 that class, it was literally two weeks later I came out.   38 
 39 
(pause to let the cat out) 40 
 41 
AJ: You were just talking about the experience in your junior year at DePaul when you transitioned 42 at school.  Thats big. 43 
 44 
PC: Its actually interesting because I didnt really fully comprehend how big it was because I 45 definitely did that coming out super loud, because I was queer and was very aware of the fact of 46 the intersectionality and the complexities already involved in social justice, so I did that very 1 coming out loud thing and really held that space that I can be a feminine trans man.  Now I 2 reflect on it and I was like man I was creating space in ways that I didnt recognize at that time, 3 but it was a thing.   4 
 5 
AJ: Theres a lot of peer pressure that happens even in college.  People are being individuals but 6 theyre still conforming to the college norms in order to sort of get along and get through, and 7 you just blasted all of that.  How did your classmates react and respond? 8 
 9 
PC: Just to give you a little context about how I was showing up, I actually . . . by the time I was at 10 DePaul, I had been out of school for about a year and a half because I couldnt afford to stay in 11 school when I was out in the Bay area.  So I was a little bit older when I went to DePaul and I just 12 had no interest at that time in the college experience, but I wanted to feel connected to 13 community so I joined a sorority.  So that was the only real connection that I had to the 14 university other . . . I would go to class and then go home.  So during that time actually, what 15 culture I was steeped in was Chicago nightlife because I was working as a bartender overnights 16 and going to school during the day.  So I was a nightlife persona a little bit, in my own little way, 17 and so I transitioned very publicly in Boys Town, so that was where my problems were. 18 
 19 
AJ: Boys Town.  What is Boys Town?  Tell us a little bit about Boys Town. 20 
 21 
PC: So Boys Town is the gay district in Chicago that is incredibly racist, incredibly classist, 22 exclusionary, it is highly problematic, and that was where I spent the first four years of my 23 transition  in the middle of all of that, because I didnt know I was a gay man.  I was a gay man 24 so I didnt know anything else, I just went to where gay men where.  I was the only gay trans 25 man in all this space all the time.  So I experienced a lot of pushback from the people that I saw 26 in that scene and people were extremely transphobic. 27 
 28 
AJ: So transphobia . . .  29 
 30 
PC: It was rampant. 31 
 32 
AJ: Racism . . . 33 
 34 
PC: Absolutely.   35 
 36 
AJ: I suspect maybe some sexism too.   37 
 38 
PC: Oh absolutely and it showed up in this way of, You will never be one of us.  So I would be out, 39 and this was when I started to pass  like t was working real good, and so Im sitting here 40 trying to holler and dance with a guy and, this literally happened, a guy walked behind him and 41 whispered in his hear, Just so you know, thats a girl.  And, I was totally put on the spot  like, 42 Well, whats that supposed to mean?  And then I was like, Oh my God.  So that really did 43 happen and things like that did happen frequently.  Also, I was experiencing race in a different 44 way at that time as well, going from being a light-skinned mixed woman who fits within 45 conventional attractiveness in some ways, to being a Black man period  granted I do have light 46 skin privilege and I own that, it was a traumatic experience.  And then to be completely 1 immersed in a racist culture and in Chicago, which adds a whole other layer of racism.  Going 2 through that, it took me a long time to recover from the rage that I was constantly experiencing 3 as a response of how can people not see what theyre doing, why is this considered OK the way 4 that I was suddenly treated.  It was very drastic, very quickly. 5 
 6 
AJ: So you had immersed yourself in this sort of gay male life, had you had inroads or relationships 7 within the lesbian community too? 8 
 9 
PC: No, I actually had no connections whatsoever to the lesbian community. 10 
 11 
AJ: To the trans community? 12 
 13 
PC: No, not really.  I sought it out, but never fully connected. 14 
 15 
AJ: You just didnt fully connect. 16 
 17 
PC: Yeah . . .  18 
 19 
AJ: Because thats got to be tough to be in the cis gay males face as a trans man and thats your 20 only socialization. 21 
 22 
PC: Yes, a Black trans man at that, so experiencing that layer of it.  I didnt realize how much and 23 how deep into survival mode I was until I left Chicago.  I was wasting so much life energy on 24 survival in that environment.  When I came here I was extremely intentional about cultivating a 25 different kind of life for myself, I wasnt moving here to create a carbon-gray copy of my life in 26 Chicago.  I was leaving because I needed to and, in doing so, cleared that slate and . . . as you 27 have seen, in some ways, my life has become a lot better. 28 
 29 
AJ: Well I have witnessed a beautiful life but I dont have a vision of what it was prior. 30 
 31 
PC: I was sad, I was really sad and I was really lonely.  I didnt meet another Black trans man until 32 three years into my transition.  It took a long time. 33 
 34 
AJ: Who was that? 35 
 36 
PC: I think I met Melvin Whitehead first.   37 
 38 
AJ: Whos Melvin?  Tell me a little bit about Melvin. 39 
 40 
PC: Melvin is an associate professor at Lewis University in Joliet.  He is also queer so that was really 41 cool too.   42 
 43 
AJ: A trans man who identifies as queer. 44 
 45 
PC: Yes, so that was pretty cool to meet another queer trans man of color because I had, up until 1 then, I had never met another . . .  2 
 3 
AJ: So who were your role models?  You read Lou Sullivan. 4 
 5 
PC: I read the one story.   6 
 7 
AJ: Yeah, but how did you sort of create this persona or this identity?  Was it gay men who were 8 your role models?  And if thats true, thats real  thats OK. 9 
 10 
PC: I would say probably more like . . . I was actually pretty within drag queen culture so thats 11 where I ended up falling into, like out of safety.  In Chicago, at that time, a vast majority of the 12 most well-known queens were all Black, and so I did find that little safe haven but even then I 13 was still removed because I wasnt in that same experience.   14 
 15 
AJ: But those were your peers, that was your peer group. 16 
 17 
PC: Slightly  yeah. 18 
 19 
AJ: Thats who you would drink with when you would see them out at the bars and stuff like that. 20 
 21 
PC: Yeah, at least during that period.  Once I left and graduated college and then started teaching, I 22 didnt stay connected to that community and honestly, I recognize when I look back at my life 23 there was a pervasive cycle of social isolation and I didnt know how to do anything differently 24 than keep copying that over and over and over again.  That separation, that feeling of low self-25 worth because it was constantly being reflected back that I was not worth the same.  I just kept 26 perpetuating that in my own life and I didnt have people that I necessarily looked up to.  I guess 27 probably the closest would be RuPaul.  RuPaul was my idol since I was like six.  My mom used to 28 let me stay up late and watch the RuPaul Show on VH1.  She bought me To Wong Foo and The 29 Birdcage.  I wanted to be a drag queen.  My mom actually said to me, like her moment of 30 support came from her being like, I see it now, I see that I had a gay son and I just didnt 31 recognize it because you were putting make-up on and heels.  But I also had a feather boa 32 collection, thats a real thing.  But yeah, thats . . . sorry, I just got so caught up with the feather 33 boas.   34 
 35 
AJ: No, thats fine.  So what terms do you use to describe yourself, and youve already said youre 36 gay or queer. 37 
 38 
PC: Yeah. 39 
 40 
AJ: But has that changed over time?  And I know you talked about that a little bit but just indulge 41 me. 42 
 43 
PC: Sure.  Yeah, are you talking about just kind of in general? 44 
 45 
AJ: Yeah, like some people . . . and you said you could have been straight . . .  46 
 1 
PC: I cant come out as anything else is basically the case. 2 
 3 
AJ: Youve hit every label. 4 
 5 
PC: I have.  Ive got the L, the G, Ive got all of it.  I came out as bisexual at 16 or 17, came out  but 6 that was where my bullying really started.  When I was in middle school I was always very 7 tomboyish and very sports-y.  I had a huge crush on my best friend and we kissed a little, I think 8 thats pretty common actually.  I really had a big crush on her and then she moved away and it 9 was a secret, and then it ended up that she shared it with someone and then the whole school 10 found out and then I was tortured after that.  I was at the front-end of cyber-bullying.  This is 11 when AOL Instant Messenger was the hot thing, that was really when connectivity to the 12 internet was starting to be a thing, especially in rural areas.  So, Id get home and hop online 13 hoping to make some friends and there would be coordinated attacks on me  like where I 14 would have four or five or more people at the same time send me a message saying, You are 15 ugly because youre Black.  Which is a stupid . . . thats not even . . . literally verbatim they said, 16 Youre ugly because youre Black.  Thats not an exaggeration, which is a basic insult, but God 17 it was earth shattering at that time.  And that persisted very quietly.  When I went into high 18 school that was when I switched the presentation and became more feminine in my 19 presentation, and then I came out as bi at 17 or so.  So basically the different labels that Ive 20 had, I kind of feel like its just peeling the onion.  I was like, Am I bisexual?  No, that doesnt feel 21 right.  Then I was like, Am I lesbian?  No, that doesnt feel right.  Well maybe Im mostly 22 straight.  No, that doesnt feel right either.  And then it was like, Well maybe Im butch.  I just 23 kept trying, I was trying to figure it out.   24 
 25 
AJ: Just trying to figure out where you belong. 26 
 27 
PC: And honestly, like I said, once I was like, Oh my God, Im a gay man, I knew that that was it.  It 28 was just extremely clear.  It was like for the first time, my personality, my childhood, all of my 29 experiences made sense.  I was like, Oh, that . . .  30 
 31 
AJ: Thats awesome.  What challenges have you faced since youve begun to really express your true 32 gender identity? 33 
 34 
PC: Well, I shared some things around becoming a Black man that was quite traumatizing.  But the 35 other part of it . . .  36 
 37 
AJ: And you can say more about that if you want.  Actually, yes, please.  Black men are under attack 38 in our society, which is not a new phenomenon.   39 
 40 
PC: Not at all. 41 
 42 
AJ: Its pretty much been that way since Africans have been transported and enslaved in America.  43 So how does it feel to go from being a Black woman with, youve said it yourself  this relatively 44 light skin privilege to becoming a Black male, which, in many ways, some of that light skinned 45 privilege goes away when its packaged in a male body.   46 
 1 
PC: The only way that I can describe was traumatizing, or I should say it was traumatizing, because 2 after spending almost 23 years being socialized, of leaning into my beauty privilege, as a woman 3 in order to escape any sort of fear that might come up along the way, I no longer had that 4 barrier that I could lean into to not feel afraid.  I was socially conditioned to be afraid of men, I 5 was socially conditioned to shrink  like whenever there is a challenge, to shrink.  And so 6 imagine suddenly being in that experience of being afraid and shrinking but yet Im the one who 7 is being viewed as a threat.  And so, I was so scared all the time of how people would assume 8 things about me and then respond aggressively.  I was so afraid of violence happening to me.  9 There is a part of being light-skinned too that people dont really talk about, which is . . . since 10 were seen as less threatening, sometimes people get real brave in how they interact with us, do 11 you know what I mean? 12 
 13 
AJ: Ahh, yes. 14 
 15 
PC: Because theyre not as afraid, I think, is how it really boils down.  And so . . .  16 
 17 
AJ: Ive never thought . . . being a dark-skinned person, Ive never really thought about that.   18 
 19 
PC: My dad is very dark skinned, and a big guy, so hes extremely threatening to people, so people 20 dont get brave with him.  But my little puny arms, light skin, smaller guy.  So I would get 21 shoulder checked, I would get cut in line, things that . . . does nobody else see this?  You know, 22 get real brave and then I would be the one in the wrong to confront or to say anything.  So I was 23 constantly being set up in these ways that I had never been before.  These were acts of 24 aggression, very passively, but say something.  Do you know what I mean?  Because there is an 25 automatic assumption that if you turn around and say something, everyone else is going to have 26 their back and youre going to be in the wrong.  No matter the fact that theyre . . . and I started 27 having people come up to me and tell me to be quiet.   28 
 29 
AJ: Guys would do this? 30 
 31 
PC: Actually it was primarily white women.   32 
 33 
AJ: Oh, OK. 34 
 35 
PC: I started having a lot of white women get real brave in policing how I behaved in public.  And so, 36 actually I was walking around north Minneapolis and I was talking to Lane, my now husband, on 37 Facetime  so were talking and I was just going for a walk, it was a really nice day.  And I had 38 this older white woman come out of her house and try to take my phone out of my hand and 39 she accused me of trying to case houses to burglarize.   40 
 41 
AJ: Oh my goodness. 42 
 43 
PC: So, Lane witnessed it, as a white person, and on the other side of it was just like, Oh my God, 44 how can this person not see that they just assumed so much.  I was sitting here talking to 45 someone and theyre thinking that Im planning on robbing their houses later.  And so that was 46 really confusing for him, and me too.  It was like, God, can I just go for a walk.  But thank God, 1 though, that she didnt call the police because she was too scared  thats something I think 2 about, that a lot of times white folks are too scared to say anything which is why they call 9-1-1. 3 
 4 
AJ: So she didnt talk to you as a trans person, she just thought you were a Black male, criminal. 5 
 6 
PC: So this part of the trans narrative, the Black trans masculine experience, is completely hidden, I 7 feel like, from the rest of the trans narrative.  8 
 9 
AJ: Well Im glad youre here to help.  You wont be able to do it all but its definitely a start on the 10 path to trying to understand that. 11 
 12 
PC: Yeah, you know, there is almost this negation that sort of happens with passing privilege  its 13 like passing as a Black man is . . . thats a different experience entirely, so its like while I have 14 more privilege in passing, I also have less privilege as a man so that experience often has not 15 been captured.   16 
 17 
AJ: What have been some of the positive aspects of expressing your true gender identity? 18 
 19 
PC: Well, Im happier than Ive ever been.  I really went through some really deep soul searching 20 during . . . probably by year two of my transition, because I was so depressed and I was so full of 21 rage, I was so socially isolated.  I was working as a public school teacher on the south side of 22 Chicago and I was special education, I didnt have the resources, I was working 80-90 hour 23 weeks.  I was just really miserable so I paused.  When I left . . . I actually took some time and 24 actually de-transitioned for about nine months.   25 
 26 
AJ: Oh, wow. 27 
 28 
PC: Yeah, because I wanted to escape what was happening.  I was like, You know what?  Im 29 making the decision right here and now that I would rather not be myself and live in a world as a 30 woman than be myself and be a Black man.  I made that clear distinction.  I was like, I cant 31 live like this anymore.  I was so depressed.  I went off testosterone and started presenting 32 again as feminine, was Ms. Cunningham  the school gave me a space to de-transition, which 33 was really cool. 34 
 35 
AJ: That sounds awesome. 36 
 37 
PC: It was cool they allowed it but does that mean it was an accepting culture, absolutely not.  I 38 mean, because basically what happened was to the world I became a Black trans woman.  So I 39 spent nine months being perceived as a Black trans woman.   40 
 41 
AJ: Wow. 42 
 43 
PC: And honestly, that was the time in my life where I was . . . 44 
 45 
AJ: Because people had sort of recognized and maybe accepted that youre this Black male, and 1 now youre showing up in what is considered drag. 2 
 3 
PC: Basically.  Yeah, and also at this point . . .  4 
 5 
AJ: Well, as a Black female.   6 
 7 
PC: Right.  And at this point I had been on testosterone for about two and a half years, so I looked 8 different. 9 
 10 
AJ: So you had to shave . . . 11 
 12 
PC: I had to shave, I had already had top surgery.  So all of it was just really icky for me in terms of 13 how much I was trying to escape my own experience.  But Im grateful for that nine month 14 period, though, of walking down the street and being mis-gendered intentionally by people.  15 People saying, Sir, when here I am with full face of make-up on and a barrette and a purse.  So 16 during that experience . . . 17 
 18 
AJ: Welcome to my world. 19 
 20 
PC: Hello, and I am there . . . God bless you, honestly.  So basically, that was the time though in 21 which I had a very distinct shift in my mindset, my perspective of the world, where I realized 22 that it does not matter what the person crossing the street sees me as.  They can see me as a 23 man or as a woman and Im still Phillipe.  I finally understood that.  So that didnt upset me, that 24 didnt trigger me, that wasnt like some sort of visceral reaction anymore to being mid-25 gendered.  And then I started not wearing make-up and I really started to allow myself the space 26 to being a Black man again in that feeling of  it doesnt matter how people treat you, just be 27 yourself, just love yourself.  I came out the other side a completely different person, much more 28 settled in my identity, much happier than Id ever been.  I process it all differently.  So thats a 29 really . . . I am who Im meant to be in this lifetime, right now in this moment.  I wish I could 30 have spent my whole life on this frequency.  But I needed to figure it all out otherwise first.   31 
 32 
AJ: It takes time to get there. 33 
 34 
PC: It sure does and Im glad. 35 
 36 
AJ: Whats your current relationship like with your birth family? 37 
 38 
PC: Im close with my parents.  My mother was not happy when I came out.  My mother was very 39 attached, has always been extremely attached, to the idea of having a daughter.  And so, she 40 was not happy when I came out and said a lot of the textbook things that youre not supposed 41 to say.  The, You murdered my daughter, I will never forgive you for this.  My mom has always 42 said my whole life, Youve got to live to make yourself happy, youve got to live your own life, 43 and then she said, I wish I would have never said that to you.  But because of the fact that I 44 was coming out in this very radical mindset, I just was not even bothered by it because I knew 45 she was having her feelings about it so I didnt really internalize it.  Some of those things stung a 46 little bit, but it was something that I felt like I could just process and kept it moving.  My dad is 1 pretty quiet so he was just kind of like, OK.  But were really close now, they defend me in my 2 hometown if somebody mis-genders me. 3 
 4 
AJ: Really?  Mom too? 5 
 6 
PC: Yes.  My mom  so she actually . . . when I went to go get top surgery in Florida, she went with 7 me.  My dad was going to go with me but then he got a part-time job so he couldnt go.  She was 8 like, Im not going to let you go down there and get surgery and then be down there by 9 yourself.  So she went with me and there was this moment for her, like I was telling you  it 10 was on the plane on the way to Florida, she just looked at me and she was like, I see it now.  I 11 see how the people you were obsessed with growing up were RuPaul, Starina off of The 12 Birdcage, Noxeema Jackson from To Wong Foo - you know, drag queens, trans women, gender 13 queer people were my idols growing up now.  She was like, I see it now, I see that I had a gay 14 son growing up, and I see it in you now.  I can see how I have a gay son.  And then when I went 15 off testosterone and went through my de-transition phase, I became very depressed.  My body 16 actually, the doctor told me that he thinks that my body physically manifests gender dysphoria 17 in a way that it creates estrogen but then kind of rejects it, because I experienced a lot of 18 depression growing up and then when I went on testosterone it went away - it was like gone.  19 And so my mom was like, I actually think you need to go back on . . . 20 
 21 
AJ: Put you on some HRT.   22 
 23 
PC: Yeah, go back on testosterone.  And then when I did and she saw how much happier I was, like 24 she could compare the two, she really switched and was like, Youre my son.  My parents call 25 me son, they send me Christmas cards with son on it.  So my parents are there, my extended 26 family is a hit or miss, but thats OK  Im blessed every day by my parents. 27 
 28 
AJ: So, you have a chosen family now, or a new family.  You just recently got married.  I had the 29 honor and the privilege of witnessing the marriage of you and Lane, two trans gay men.  Thats 30 fascinating to me.  Do you want to talk about that at all? 31 
 32 
PC: Yeah, sure.  I mean, I could gush about Lane all day.  Hes my favorite person, hes such a good 33 person.  I had never been with a trans man before Lane, and actually the same can be said for 34 him  he had never been with a trans man either.  And looking at that, reflecting on that, I 35 actually never even considered dating a trans man, with the exception of one who was a friend  36 but even then it was just kind of a friend with like, Oh, Im crushing on you a little, it never 37 went anywhere.  But it was a lot of internalized trans phobia, where I was like, Why would I 38 date another trans man?  I talked with a couple of trans women, but I had never really 39 considered a trans man.  But when I saw Lane, and I had already kind of started working through 40 that  like self-reflecting on why am I so resistant, and a big part of it was feeling so . . . like a 41 visceral reaction to the idea of being a lesbian, I could just hear what people would say.  And so, 42 I was resistant to accepting the idea of that until I realized it was just internalized transphobia.  43 But when I met Lane it was heart eyes and swoon and it didnt even matter.  In fact, theres a 44 little bit of an, Oh my God, this works so well.  Its so much easier, we just align, we 45 understand, we have similar emotional processes. 46 
 1 
AJ: So most people dont know that either of you are trans . . . 2 
 3 
PC: Yeah, people dont know. 4 
 5 
AJ: So they read you guys as a gay couple.   6 
 7 
PC: Yeah. 8 
 9 
AJ: How is that? 10 
 11 
PC: Its cool. 12 
 13 
AJ: In society and the world, when you travel, go to restaurants. 14 
 15 
PC: Well, its cool for me because I am a gay man so I really love being out in the world and being a 16 gay man. 17 
 18 
AJ: And being read as that. 19 
 20 
PC: And being read as that and being married to my husband and being out in public as a gay couple 21 and being viewed as a gay, male couple.  That feels really good to me.  We are in such a bubble 22 and we challenge each other and really process a lot of the pain that weve accumulated over 23 our lives, that we live in a bubble and can go out in public and be affectionate and be in our 24 bubble in public because we are just not bothered by it.  And also, Minneapolis is fairly queer 25 friendly so were also in a safer space. 26 
 27 
AJ: Youre also an interracial couple.  I know that you mentioned you grew up in an interracial 28 family, so have you noticed or experienced any sort of discrimination or hostility around the fact 29 that its an interracial relationship? 30 
 31 
PC: So, no  not like any sort of . . .  32 
 33 
AJ: In your face. 34 
 35 
PC: Yeah, nobody has said anything, nothing has happened.  I would say that actually probably the 36 crux of the experience and the process that I experienced, was being in an interracial experience 37 myself.  I actually declared to my parents . . . Lane and I met in February, probably in December 38 or January, that I would never date a white man again.  And I hadnt at that point for a very long 39 time anyway, but I was just like, Im a Black man, my experience is really difficult, and I will not 40 hold space for a white man who cannot hear my experience. 41 
 42 
AJ: Sure. 43 
 44 
PC: Im just not going to live the rest of my life like that.  When Lane and I met at Creating Change, 45 and we were at the vigil for Jessie Hernandez, the facilitator of this vigil was like, Turn to the 46 person next to you and share whats coming up for you right now.  And so, Lane and I turned to 1 each other, and this was when we just had met, and I was very honest.  I dont remember what I 2 said, but I was very real in what was coming up for me  about feeling my self-worth and my 3 value in this society, and I could so tell that he held space, that he heard me and did not 4 internalize that as a white person at all.  I could see that he could actually feel like, Damn, like 5 he was empathizing and hearing me.  That was the first time that Ive ever felt a white person 6 hold that space for me, it was actually quite distinctive and that left a mark on me.  Then we 7 ended up getting together and I had to process that, as an activist  an extremely pro-Black 8 activist around a bunch of other Black radical revolutionaries, and now Im with a white person.  9 And so I had to really process navigating . . . am I conforming to societys cultural norms?  Am I 10 adhering to that by showing up in this relationship?  I swear to you, though  this is the thing, 11 that it does not matter.  Lane and I are soulmates.  That was something that I just had to work 12 through.  I always feel really nervous, still, about if it hurt my street cred as a pro-Black activist.  13 But it is what it is and honestly, Lane is the kind of white ally that we all really hope and pray for.  14 He really is. 15 
 16 
AJ: Sure.  Hes a part of activist circles and advocacy work.   17 
 18 
PC: Yeah, we actually . . .  19 
 20 
AJ: Hes on the front line, its like he . . . I know him to be down. 21 
 22 
PC: Yeah, hes so down.  So when we were in Chicago at Color of Violence, we actually were sitting 23 in a hotel room with all Black trans folks, all Black trans revolutionaries from all over the 24 country, and there was a conversation being had actually about this very high level idea of white 25 bodies as a form of terrorism.  What an intense conversation, right?  And hes the only white 26 person in the room . . .  27 
 28 
AJ: I dont think I was in that conversation. 29 
 30 
PC: I dont think you were  no.  He internalized zero percent of that.  He held space for it, he heard 31 exactly why someone would hear or see a white body as a form of terrorism and hes like, I 32 hear that and I hold that as true.  And that was also quite a remarkable experience.  I know that 33 its kind of silly that we have to celebrate someone not being riddled with white fragility but . . . 34 this is a noticeable, how Ive never experienced that before.  And when I asked him, actually, 35 how does it feel to be in a space during those kind of conversations?  He said . . . he teared up 36 a little bit and he was like, I feel like thats my place in this work  to hear and then to go to 37 other white people and be like, yo, we are not doing right, like this is how we should be 38 engaged in this.  And hes like, I feel like thats what my work is, its not for me to defend 39 white people in those spaces or for me to take it personally, its for me to take those 40 experiences, try my best to hold them, and then go back to white folks and have conversations 41 differently.  So, hes a phenomenal person.   42 
 43 
AJ: To the extent that youre comfortable, and again youve talked about hormone therapy, youve 44 talked about top surgery, but what medical interventions have you had and do you have any 45 thoughts or plans or ideations about future medical intervention thats transition related? 46 
 1 
PC: Sure.  So Ive been on testosterone off and on now for five years.  I hate needles, unfortunately, 2 and so I never . . . 3 
 4 
AJ: Its important for a trans man. 5 
 6 
PC: Right, every week though  what?  So I did it about once every six to eight weeks, I was terrible 7 about taking my testosterone the way Im supposed to.  I recently got the gel version and so 8 actually whats funny is five years in to my transition Im actually kind of going through puberty 9 again because now my body is maintaining that testosterone level, so my beard is filling in, my 10 voice dropped a little bit.  But anyway, I started testosterone actually only a few months after 11 coming out and I did informed consent.  If I could go back and push the re-set button and do it 12 differently, I would have probably actually followed the standards of care because I was not 13 emotionally prepared to be a Black man in this society.  I had no support, anywhere, for that.  I 14 really could have used more support at that time.  And so, Im just saying for my own experience 15 of having . . . like if I could have worked with a Black man, a male therapist, as I was going 16 through it or beforehand to really understand what my experience was about to be, I would do 17 it that way.  I feel like I rushed into it, thinking I was going to be like a white trans man on either 18 side, all this privilege, being a babe and everybody is going to want to be my friend or 19 something.  And I think some folks maybe do that, but really?  Eyes on passing and things like 20 that . . . sorry, tangent.  I did what a lot of white trans guys . . . Im sure actually trans guys all 21 over the place, which is watch the YouTube videos to find people reflected back at you, hear 22 stories.  And pretty much the most well-known videos are all white guys.  So they were having a 23 grand old time, they were loving their life.  So I just really think I needed to be better anchored 24 and really understanding what that experience was going to be like.  So I did that.  About a year 25 and a half into my transition, or my medical transition, is when I had top surgery.  Actually Lane 26 and I got top surgery with the same surgeon. 27 
 28 
AJ: Oh wow.  Coincidentally or together? 29 
 30 
PC: Coincidentally.  No, I got top surgery in . . .  31 
 32 
AJ: You said you went to Florida. 33 
 34 
PC: Yeah, theres a . . . in the trans masculine community theres a few . . .  35 
 36 
AJ: A handful of surgeons.   37 
 38 
PC:  . . . who do really good work, yeah.  But its still sort of silly though. 39 
 40 
AJ: Who is the doctor? 41 
 42 
PC: Dr. Garramone.   43 
 44 
AJ: Do you know how to spell that? 45 
 46 
PC: G-a-r-r-a-m-o-n-e.  Fantastic doctor, oh my gosh.  Great staff, so supportive. 1 
 2 
AJ: Hes in Florida? 3 
 4 
PC: Yeah, Florida. 5 
 6 
AJ: What part? 7 
 8 
PC: Ft. Lauderdale.  Fun coincidence. 9 
 10 
AJ: Thats interesting. 11 
 12 
PC: Yeah, so I consider . . . I would like to have a hysterectomy at some point, just because my 13 organs cause me pain as a result of my hormone therapy.  So, they cause me pain and I have no 14 intention, really, of using them.  But I would . . .  15 
 16 
AJ: Now I know Lane has talked about having children. 17 
 18 
PC: Yes, we will have kids. 19 
 20 
AJ: It just wont be you. 21 
 22 
PC: I will not carry.  So what I hope to do is freeze my eggs and then get a hysterectomy at some 23 point.  Thats just not meant for me in this lifetime, but I would like biological children which is 24 why I would like to freeze my eggs.   25 
 26 
AJ: Well thank you for being honest about that and sharing.  What specific moment or person or 27 organization has had a significant impact on you related to your gender identity?  So you talked 28 about Lou Sullivan and you talked about RuPaul and those sort of cultural, iconic movies.  Were 29 there organizations or people that you actually knew that had a role when you look back?  30 Melvin White  thats who I was trying to think of, you talked about Melvin White.   31 
 32 
PC: I think his name was Melvin Whitehead.  It was nice connecting with another Black queer trans 33 person.  So that was nice.  Youve got to give me a second here to try to really . . . I would say 34 moving to Minneapolis was probably my life changing moment around that.  I was so 35 disconnected from my trans identity and I have been since I came out as trans.  I was extremely 36 100% in that mentality of, Im a gay man, I am not a gay trans man.  I lived that and I fought 37 really hard to be viewed as that.  When I re-entered after my de-transition, started presenting as 38 masculine again, that started to shift, I actually started being really open about being trans and 39 started sharing that  and promised myself that I would never go stealth again  because I was 40 stealth as a teacher, prior to de-transitioning, and it was really hard for me.  I wasnt happy in 41 that experience.     42 
 43 
AJ: What about your interactions with institutions?  So, medical personnel or the criminal justice 44 system or educational institutions?  It sounds like DePaul was kind of pretty . . . 45 
 46 
PC: They were real easy, it was OK.  There was no drama, my sorority was like, OK.  Yeah, and then 1 the national board, even when my sorority reached out and asked for my support to be able to 2 help them to be more trans inclusive.  3 
 4 
AJ: Oh, wow. 5 
 6 
PC: Yeah, pretty cool.   7 
 8 
AJ: Social security . . .? 9 
 10 
PC: Medical, I was getting to medical.  I did not have good experiences, I still dont have good 11 experiences with the medical industry.  So its always high stress going to the doctor, its also 12 kind of a double-edge sword of passing  theres just constant . . . like moment after moment 13 after moment of people being like, Oh, and then responding inappropriately.  Do you know 14 what I mean? 15 
 16 
AJ: You have ovaries. 17 
 18 
PC: Right, right, right  and then asking inappropriate questions almost immediately and Im like, I 19 know that wasnt the next question on the medical form that you just . . . So, in Minneapolis, 20 well it actually was in Columbia Heights, a northern suburb, where I went to a doctor, did get 21 established with medical care here, and with my insurance Im labeled as female and I have to 22 be labeled as female in order to get gendered procedures covered.  I learned this the hard way 23 when I was in Chicago Public Schools when someone, without my consent, changed it to male 24 and then when I got an annual exam they didnt cover it because it didnt align with my gender.  25 So I tried to explain to them there that I needed to be listed as female and this nurse was like, I 26 just dont think that we can do that.  I was like, Why?  She was like, I think its a policy.  And 27 I was like, Well, thinking and knowing are two different things.  But she pretty much said no  I 28 mean this is Minnesota so it was sort of a passive-aggressive no.  And then I was like, Can you 29 please go check with someone?  And so then . . . plus, by the way, she was speaking very 30 emphatically so she was loud, and then went out into the hall and then very loudly talked to 31 someone else, like another nurse, about the policy.  And she was saying, I just dont think that 32 we can do this, I dont think we can do this.  And I could hear all of it, first of all it was really 33 uncomfortable and so then basically at the end they said no and I didnt want to keep fighting it 34 and I havent had any problems.  But that discomfort though of fighting to be listed as female  35 ewww.  And ironically before I had a beard but still passed, in some ways  a little bit, once I 36 would say I was female assigned at birth, they would change it on my chart.  Its like gender 37 policing on both sides of it when I was trying  like, No, Im male, when I was trying to do that 38 they were like, No, youre female.  And then on the other side I was like, I have to be listed . . 39 .  No, male.  But on a serious note though actually, when I went to go get top surgery, I went 40 to a clinic in Humboldt Park in Chicago.  I was not making a lot of money so it was a community 41 clinic and I went to get cleared for surgery, just a form that had to be filled out.  I went into this 42 place and I looked the way that I looked and when I explained to the doctor  we made it 43 through probably about one-quarter of . . . just kind of doing the usual parts, and I explained 44 that I was getting top surgery and medically transitioning, and then he didnt believe me.  Then 45 he was like, Wait, why?  I dont understand.  I was like, Well, I dont really know how else to 46 explain it.  And then he was like, Show me then.  I didnt know . . . I wanted to get cleared for 1 surgery, so I complied and lifted up my shirt so that he could see my breasts and then he 2 proceeded to squeeze my breasts. 3 
 4 
AJ: Oh wow. 5 
 6 
PC: Why, to check if they were real? First of all, me lifting up my shirt wasnt necessary in the first 7 place and then touching me was extra not necessary  especially in that way.  And then the 8 worst part of it was that he didnt clear me for surgery. 9 
 10 
AJ: Oh my gosh. 11 
 12 
PC: That was the worst of it.  Ive had a lot of issues around medical-related things.  But I will say, 13 though, that the City of Minneapolis, since Ive been working there with HR, they actually went 14 extremely out of their way to be sensitive and make sure that my insurance was aligned the way 15 it was supposed to.  The woman who kind of coordinates it gave me a call and was like, Im just 16 checking in to let you know Im still checking about the gender identity, because I wanted to 17 know if it would be publicly listed as female, which actually I have to ask every time I go through 18 a new job and insurance because I have to be listed as female in the system.  And shes like, I 19 just want you to know were still working on that, but dont worry were being very discreet, its 20 only a need-to-know thing.  Incredibly sensitive, she had no reactions to what I said.  So that 21 was a really peaceful, energizing experience actually. 22 
 23 
AJ: Thats awesome.  There must have been some trans person who had been through that before. 24 
 25 
PC: I dont know, maybe.  Thank you for creating that space. 26 
 27 
AJ: Speaking of jobs, in your new work youve been appointed as an aide to the mayor to the City of 28 Minneapolis. 29 
 30 
PC: Yeah. 31 
 32 
AJ: Thats a really, really big deal.  I read an article in the Advocate magazine that went viral, that 33 talked about this role.  Tell us about this new job and what youre doing and how it is going and 34 all that stuff. 35 
 36 
PC: I could gush about this job all day  I love it so much.  So I am the Senior Policy Aide and Advisor 37 on Education and Youth Success for the City of Minneapolis, for the mayor.  Essentially I advise 38 the mayor on youth-related issues and . . . 39 
 40 
AJ: Mayor Betsy Hodges? 41 
 42 
PC: Yes, Mayor Betsy Hodges.  On any youth-related issues but then also adding a youth 43 development lens to various work being done.  So the criminal justice system, well lets add that 44 youth development lens to it.  So if were talking about juvenile justice reform, were actually 45 having a youth development lens because as somebody . . . I have almost 10 years of youth work 46 experience, both in the classroom and out of the classroom.  Ive spent a lot of time cultivating 1 those skills so I can add, with research and best practices, to that conversation.  Youth 2 employment, I collaborate with the economic development senior policy aide on youth 3 employment-related work.  So thats what Im doing.  I also am starting to develop, or adding to 4 my portfolio I should say, racial equity-related work.  So thats also . . . I am going with the 5 mayor to a national league of cities convening of a leadership council to talk about national 6 models of racial equity.  So, yeah  Im really exciting.  This is work that Ive spent my whole life 7 preparing for and I did not realize it.  I get to do what I love so much every day.   8 
 9 
AJ: Well congratulations  thats an amazing opportunity and the community is really proud of you, 10 I am personally really proud of you.  Yesterday we saw each other, we were at the 2nd 11 Minneapolis Trans Equity Summit and I know . . . 12 
 13 
PC: Thank you for creating it! 14 
 15 
AJ: Thank you.  You were on the committee to help plan this.  What are your thoughts about 16 yesterdays summit?  I know you attended last years summit as well. 17 
 18 
PC: Yeah, so to go from last year to this year  what a 180.  Last year, I showed up  at that time I 19 had just started a fellowship and so I was going there to network and then dove into civic 20 engagement because of other policy aides being there and getting involved in city work.  Now 21 when the second one rolls around, Im working at the City, for the mayor, and Im involved in 22 planning the second one.  Here I was, I hadnt even met you yet at the last one.   23 
 24 
AJ: Right, exactly. 25 
 26 
PC: So yesterday was amazing and I was so happy to be involved in the planning of it and being able 27 to look at it on this side.  I think that it speaks volumes to the community that we have here, the 28 allies that we have here, the eagerness to learn.  I feel like people there were really ready to 29 have some conversations around the complexities of relationships in the police/trans 30 community relationships, how do we do things differently also with the city, the government  31 how do we show up differently in those relationships.  There was an eagerness to have that 32 conversation, I felt like it was palpable.   33 
 34 
AJ: It was, it was absolutely palpable.  Great energy there yesterday.   35 
 36 
PC: Absolutely. 37 
 38 
AJ: Wow, this has been just a really fascinating conversation, Phillipe. 39 
 40 
PC: Thank you. 41 
 42 
AJ: I have a question here, what has been the impact of your trans identity on your professional life, 43 and I think we just talked about that.  Is there more you want to say about it? 44 
 45 
PC: Yeah, there is.  There is something to be said about the experience of being stealth in one career 1 and then changing careers and being very out as trans.  And I speak from a different experience.  2 Having experienced both sides of gender in this world and the complexities of intersectionality 3 within that, when I show up to my work I show up loud with all of that experience.  And so there 4 is something so liberating for me in my own experience of being able to bring the richness of my 5 life experience to these conversations.  I get to . . . behind closed doors when its just very 6 privileged few making those decisions, I now have access to those spaces  a little bit, a little bit 7 more, and can interject pieces of information that everyone else . . . like no one else in the room 8 could have added, nor even comprehend.  Do you know what I mean?  For example, with the 9 work with . . . theres a lot of work happening nationally around boys and young men of color, 10 really focusing on re-engaging the community, etc.  I am always that person who is like, What 11 about the girls?  What about the young women?  Ill start spewing the statistics.  My Brothers 12 Keeper is actually in my portfolio but its also in my consciousness and Im holding space that we 13 need to do work for girls and young women too.   14 
 15 
AJ: My Brothers Keeper is the national program developed by President Obama. 16 
 17 
PC: Yes, it was originally for Black boys and young men but theyve expanded it for men of color.  Its 18 just an initiative to pull community together for collective impact to address issues that are 19 faced by boys and young men of color.  But, my male privilege has also met with 23 years of 20 being a woman, so I hold that I carry male privilege in the world, but also I do not let that ever 21 make me forget the 23 years that I survived as a woman in this world.  Right?  There is an attack 22 on that experience for women, so I will always bring that in  even in male only spaces.  And so, 23 being trans is what makes me good at what I do because of the complexities of my experience.  I 24 understand marginalization, I understand urgency, I understand why the work is so important.  25 And so, I think that really I am stronger and better at the work in my job because of the fact that 26 Im trans and that I get to be real loud about it.  So, yeah  that really matters to me. 27 
 28 
AJ: Im going to ask you a few questions and I just want you to say the first thing that comes to 29 mind. 30 
 31 
PC: OK  like single words?  I love rules. 32 
 33 
AJ: One sentence.  34 
 35 
PC: Got it. 36 
 37 
AJ: Caitlin Jenner. 38 
 39 
PC: Too loud, too soon. 40 
 41 
AJ: Twenty trans women have been murdered in 2015. 42 
 43 
PC: That is absolutely unacceptable, why is everyone not freaking out? 44 
 45 
AJ: What is the future of the trans community? 46 
 1 
PC: Leadership, visibility, power. 2 
 3 
AJ: Is there a trans community? 4 
 5 
PC: I think that there are a lot of people who are trans but I think that privilege is pervasive in all 6 communities and is divisive in all communities.   7 
 8 
AJ: Im just blown away by our discussion today, Phillipe.  Is there anything else you want to be sure 9 that you say to conclude this conversation? 10 
 11 
PC: Well thank you so much for giving me the time and the space to be able to engage in this project 12 because, like I said, I feel like the Black trans masculine experience has been just so left out of 13 this conversation overall.  The trauma of becoming a Black man in America, the experience of . . 14 . 15 
 16 
AJ: By choice. 17 
 18 
PC: Right, right, right.   19 
 20 
AJ: Not necessarily by choice, and I want to be careful here because its not a choice, its a choice to 21 acknowledge your true identity. 22 
 23 
PC: Absolutely, yes.  The way that I see it is that I chose to express my gender the way that is right 24 for me. 25 
 26 
AJ: That you know to be true.   27 
 28 
PC: Right.  And so I made the decision to step into that and in doing so, stepped into being a Black 29 man in our society.  And, that matters in our experience because if we dont take the time to 30 take a step back and see that the mass oppression of Black men affects people in the trans 31 community too and therefore is a part of the trans narrative and therefore is a part of the work 32 too, if we dont realize that  if our stories keep being silenced, then thats going to become 33 someone elses problem instead of the communitys problem.  So I really appreciate the space 34 to be able to share what this experience is like to being trans. 35 
 36 
AJ: Wow, well thank you so much for sharing your joy, your resilience, your competence, and your 37 vulnerability.  I really appreciate it. 38 
 39 
PC: Thank you so much for having me.   40 
 41 
AJ: Good luck with everything in the future. 42 
 43 
PC: Thank you.   44 

