 
 
Diana Green 
Narrator 
 
 
Andrea Jenkins 
Interviewer  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
University of Minnesota 
Jean-Nickolaus Tretter Collection in Gay, Lesbian,  Bisexual and Transgender Studies 
 
August 7, 2015 
 
 
 
 
 
  

  
 
The Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story, while providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source material about the transgender community.  The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for current and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public. 
The Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300 individuals over the next three years.  Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and experiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality.  This project will be led by Andrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist.  Andrea brings years of experience working in government, non-profits and LGBT organizations.  If you are interested in being involved in this exciting project, please contact Andrea. 
Andrea Jenkins jenki120@umn.edu (612) 625-4379 
  
Andrea Jenkins -AJ 1 
Diana Green -DG 2 
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 4 
AJ:  My name is Andrea Jenkins and the title of this project is the Transgender Oral History Project at 5 the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  Todays date is August 7, 2015, and I am 6 going to ask you, Diana, to state your name and preferred pronouns, your gender identity, and 7 your gender assigned at birth.   8 
  9 
DG:   OK.  Im Diana Green, no middle name.  My old friend, Sarah, and I were talking once and we 10 picked one out for me but its not legal, its Celeste, which I really like.  But it was never legally 11 added, so just Diana Green.  Lets see . . . did you say age? 12 
  13 
AJ:  Your preferred pronouns. 14 
  15 
DG:   Oh, pronouns.  Feminine pronouns down the line  she, her, hers, all that stuff.  I identify as 16 female.  Im post-op transsexual.  Assigned male at birth, no physiological abnormalities 17 apparent, to be clinical about it.   18 
  19 
AJ:  Sure.   20 
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DG:   I was pretty much just a guy. 22 
  23 
AJ:  Wow.  Can you tell me about your earliest memory, Diana? 24 
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DG:   Related to identity, shortly after my parents split up we were on my grandpas farm and I was 26 talking to my younger sister and we were hiding because I didnt want to get my hair cut.  And 27 mother found us, of course  because thats what mothers do, and we told her what we were 28 doing and she said, Well why didnt you want to get your hair cut?  And Therese said, Well, if 29 he grew his hair out then we could both be girls and we could play together more.  I didnt say 30 anything but I thought, How did she know?  A second later, I thought, How did I know?  That 31 was the first time I became overtly aware that not only that was the way I identified but that it 32 had something resembling a name, something resembling possibility.  Until that it was just . . . I 33 was just me and I was just playing with my brothers and sisters as best I could and just doing and 34 doing. 35 
  36 
AJ: How many brothers and sisters did you have? 37 
  38 
DG:   Thats tricky.  My dad and my mother had five kids, the last of which, my younger brother John 39 whose birthday was yesterday, was born while the divorce was going on.  My dad divorced my 40 mother to marry this other woman and they had two kids together.  So five kids by my dads 41 first marriage, two kids by his second, and then he has a vasectomy  I guess its all in the 42 timing.  So Ive got two brothers, two sisters, a half-brother and a half-sister and the joke I used 43 to tell when I was doing group therapy when I first came out was half-brother and half-sister is 44 two different people.   45 
  46 
AJ:  Wow.   1 
  2 
DG:   So altogether Ive got six siblings.  I dont really count them as halves, I dont know them as well 3 but they are my brother and my sister. 4 
  5 
AJ:  Absolutely.  How was your home environment with your parents and your siblings?  Where did 6 you grow up? 7 
  8 
DG:   I was born in south Minnesota.  For a little while when I was real young we lived in New Mexico 9 because my parents were both Air Force, I was an Air Force brat.  I asked mother later where 10 they were stationed and she said, Well we were stationed at Roswell, and I thought, Well 11 that might explain a lot.  But mostly Minnesota, all Minnesota all the time.  We moved from 12 down south Minnesota, a little town named Sanborn, to up on the tail end of the Iron Range, a 13 little town called Cohasset - which is just seven miles from Grand Rapids, thirty miles from 14 Hibbing, eighty miles from Duluth, you know how the Iron Range works.   15 
  16 
AJ:  Yes. 17 
  18 
DG:   I stayed there until I was 15 and at that point my dad made contact with my mother again, 19 theyd been in sporadic contact  mostly when he didnt pay child support, which Im still 20 reluctant to forgive him for.  It wasnt as enforced as much in those days so mother was left with 21 five kids and no money and a house payment and having to decide between food and an electric 22 bill in a house that was heated by electricity in the winter in north Minnesota.   23 
  24 
AJ:  Wow, tough times. 25 
  26 
DG:   Yeah, but when I was 15 my dad made contact again and asked us to come visit.  When I get off 27 the plane, which was also my first plane ride, and dad is standing there with this woman and 28 says, This is Audrey.  OK, hi Audrey.  Well you do know your parents are divorced, dont 29 you?  Ahhh, sure.  Thats how I found out my folks were divorced, I met my dads second 30 wife.   31 
  32 
AJ:  Wow.  Where were they living at that time? 33 
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DG:   A suburb of Milwaukee called Waukesha, which is also the home of Fred McMurray from My 35 Three Sons and the birthplace of Les Paul, the inventor of the electric guitar.  I stayed with my 36 dad most of high school, I moved out when I turned 18, which was a few months before I 37 graduated high school.  I moved back in periodically, I had trouble finding any sort of stability or 38 footing.  The summer after I graduated, I hitchhiked with a couple of friends up to Ironwood, 39 Michigan - I slept in a cemetery one night, which was an interesting experience.  But from there, 40 they went back to Waukesha and I went back to visit my mom.  She said, "How long are you 41 staying?"  I said, "Well, how long can I stay?"  Next thing I know, I'm enrolled in junior 42 college.  So I went from being homeless and drifting with some buddies to being a college 43 student - just like that.  A couple years there and then I went into foundry and factory work, 44 foundry work was rough.  I didn't really find a career path for a long time.   45 
  46 
AJ:     What did they manufacture? 1 
  2 
DG: We made cutting plates for paper mills.  It was a small-piece foundry, they were about . . . they 3 were arcs that were about this big by this big, it was a little section of a circle.  I started off on 4 shake-out, which is you get the mold coming around the belt, you use a big hook to pull it off, 5 and you hit it with a hammer until all the sand mold comes off and pass it . . . and then until the 6 part that's the pore comes off and then you take it into the grinding room and polishing room, 7 they moved me from there to grinding and polishing.  It was rough work.  I stuck with it for a 8 while but one day, in February, they asked the melter to charge a vat of steel that had a chunk 9 of snow in it, and usually that stuff just boils off but this was a big chunk and it was down 10 deep.  So water boils at 212 degrees, steel melts at somewhere between 7000-10,000, so it 11 created this pressure pocket and molten steel just exploded and hit him over half his body.  His 12 clothes caught fire, his safety helmet caught fire, he was running and rolling - I was standing 20 13 feet from him.  Everybody was in shock, they got him out of there, and we all went back to work 14 - because what else do you do?  I worked out the day, went to visit him in the hospital, went 15 home and got drunk.  The next day I went in to pick up my paycheck because I decided I wasn't 16 going to do it anymore.  But the thing that got to me about it that I didn't realize at the time was 17 he was talking about how he couldn't wait to go back.  There were two reasons for that that I 18 didn't realize because I was just a kid - he had a family, and it was what he did, it was what he 19 knew.  He knew the risks and he wanted to take them.  So I was in my twenties and that was the 20 first time I came close to growing up, I guess.  My employment history could take a couple of 21 hours so maybe we should move on a little bit. 22 
  23 
AJ: Well, we can get back to that in a little bit.   24 
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DG: All right. 26 
  27 
AJ: I'm just curious, when was the first time that you really realized . . . I know you told me a little 28 bit about you and your sister and the hair and that sparked some thoughts for you. 29 
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DG: Yes, that was 1959. 31 
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AJ:  1959.   33 
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DG: I started stealing my sister's clothes when I was 11 and I had the same dreams that I think a lot 35 of us have . . . 36 
  37 
AJ: You anticipated my question, I should make sure we get the question out just so that when we 38 transcribe it the question will be there too.  We're on the same path though. 39 
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DG: It's kind of a nice feeling, isn't it? 41 
  42 
AJ: So just tell me about the first time that you realized that you were not the gender assigned at 43 birth?   44 
  45 
DG: Well, aside from the incident when I was five, which I compartmentalized and put away and 1 didn't really consider, I found myself identifying with certain TV characters like Dihann Carroll 2 playing Julia, which I thought . . . 3 
  4 
AJ: Oh, that was one of my favorite shows growing up.   5 
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DG: We didn't have a color TV so I just saw it in black and white, but with Judy Garland as Dorothy in 7 the Wizard of Oz.  My identification took two forms:  I wanted to protect them and I wanted to 8 be with them and at the same time, I wanted to be them.  I didn't know how to reconcile that 9 and it didn't dawn on me that I really had to, I thought that's just what I'll do - I'll be them and I'll 10 be with them and I'll be that.  It didn't dawn on me that you can't be somebody and be with that 11 person at the same time.  Hello?  Different people, different universe.  But the overt awareness 12 came, I think, when I was about 11.  I don't remember what the trigger was exactly but 13 something led me to start stealing my older sister's stuff.  She's eleven months older than me 14 and we're living out in the sticks - I mean, literally.  We're a mile north of a town of 600.   15 
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AJ: Wow - rural. 17 
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DG: Yes, our nearest neighbor was a mile away.  And that was fine with us.  But our window into the 19 world was going into Grand Rapids, which was 7,000 people or watching TV or reading.  We did 20 a lot of reading because mother insisted we have tons and tons of books around - she later 21 became a book hoarder.  I've got a little bit of that in me too.  But, the awareness first came in 22 when I was about 11.  I started going to sleep wearing the stuff and this one particular dress I 23 really liked.  It was an orange jumper, sleeveless, back zipper, pleated skirt, all one piece.  At the 24 time panty hose weren't in yet so it was all garter belts and stuff.  But I'd go to sleep wearing 25 that stuff and dreaming, like a lot of us do, that I'd just wake up and everything would be right 26 and everybody would know that that's the way it always was.  I'd stay home from school a lot 27 because I got beat up a lot, which was an odd position to be in too because I was told by my 28 mother when the divorce happened, "Well, you're the man of the house now."  I knew that was 29 wrong in every sense and I knew that she didn't mean me any harm in saying it, but at the same 30 time that was impossible to live up to.  So I was supposed to be in charge, sort of, of my 31 brothers and sisters even though one of my sisters was older than me and even though they saw 32 me get beat up on the bus in the morning.  So what kind of authority could I still have at that 33 point?  So, everything I did at home I felt like I was a fake, except for when I was alone and 34 except for when I was being myself.  One day when I was staying home from school, I decided 35 that when everybody came back I was just going to stay dressed up and tell everybody that 36 that's who I was and that's how I wanted to be treated, and then I chickened out - which is 37 probably a good thing because that would have been in 1964 or 1965 and I would have probably 38 either been shuttled off into military school or given an electronic shock because thats kind of 39 what they did back then because thats all they knew.   40 
AJ: Do you know anybody who had . . . electric shock? 41 
DG: Electric shock, yeah.  I know one woman who doesnt live around here anymore, Margaret 42 OHartigan, who is an activist who lives in Portland, Oregon, and her parents did that to her.  Im 43 not going to tell her story because thats all she told me about it.  She was not exactly calm 44 when she told me it, I dont think it was a particularly enjoyable experience. 45 
AJ: I can only imagine.  Wow.   1 
DG: So where are we at here? 2 
AJ: Now, what terms do you use to describe yourself?  And how might that have changed over 3 time?   4 
DG: Boy . . . no, boy isnt one of them.  Id like to be able to say that Im brave when Im out all the 5 time, but the truth is Im kind of guarded about it sometimes.  I went through a period in the 6 1990s after an abusive relationship where I just didnt care anymore and I assumed that 7 everybody knew.  The weird thing was that as soon as I made that assumption less people knew.  8 As soon as I stopped worrying about passing and figured fuck it people are going to know 9 anyway, then people took me as female, as cis, as genetic, as generic.   10 
AJ: Sure. 11 
DG: And it sort of evolved into . . . I guess the best way to put it is the way a friend of an old 12 boyfriend once put it, I guess I live in a closet with a screen door on it.  Anybody that really 13 wants to look in, can. And Im always reluctant to tell people, more reluctant to tell women than 14 I am to tell men.  Because as far as I can see, the core of the conversation is Im not like you and 15 thats something I dont want other women to think of me.   16 
AJ: Sure, I get that.  Describe some of the challenges that you have faced since expressing your true 17 gender identity. 18 
DG: Well the first one was the inevitable end of my marriage.  I married a delightful woman 37 years 19 ago August 5th, as she reminded me in a Facebook post  we still keep in contact some.  In 20 retrospect, it was a very selfish thing to do and I was running scared, but that doesnt mean I 21 didnt love her.   22 
AJ: Right. 23 
DG: Its a strange way to express love though because thats not what love is.  Love is caring enough 24 about the other person to do right by them.  I did that with her but I couldnt really because I 25 wasnt in a position to be honest and deal completely with it.  I came out seven years into the 26 marriage, actually six years into the marriage and we stayed legally married for another year 27 after that.  After I came out things started going downhill at a rapid rate, it was a cascade effect.  28 Within a year I was pressured into quitting my job at the time, which I was a manager for 29 Landmark Theatres, which is the company that runs the Uptown Theatre in Minneapolis.  At the 30 time they transferred me from the Uptown in Minneapolis to managing my old theatre, the 31 Majestic in Madison, and I didnt realize it at the time that one of the reasons that they did that 32 was that Madison did not have a trans-inclusive gay rights law like Minnesota did.   33 
AJ: Interesting.   34 
DG: And then a bunch of screwy stuff started happening.  I would get verbal orders that would 35 contradict written orders that came later, after Id acted on the orders Id gotten.  My job 36 performance was called into question and between that and having to commute to Minneapolis 37 for therapy, I finally decided I had to leave the job.  I got a series of progressively worse jobs.  I 1 was a receptionist for a while, which was OK.  I worked in a medical supply place for a while, 2 which was a slice of hell  the work itself wasnt bad but my supervisor was this ancient 3 harridan.  After that I went to Montgomery Wards where I sold draperies.  And then as things 4 got worse and worse and worse, and I was losing ground financially, there was no way I could 5 get ahead let alone save anything for surgery or electrolysis or anything, I had a friend that I had 6 started barhopping with because I had discovered that there were guys that would go out with 7 me.  I hadnt been all that interested in guys before or hadnt allowed myself to express the 8 interest, largely out of fear.  But she was a sister and she knew her way around the bars.   9 
AJ: When you say a sister . . .? 10 
DG: She was trans. 11 
AJ: She was a transgender woman. 12 
DG: Yes.  She was part of little cadre of . . . for want of a better term, and not to minimize, of barflies 13 that were on social security disability because of their gender status.  I was talking to her while I 14 was on vacation, I had a weeks vacation and we were sitting in a park  the park thats right 15 near the Hennepin County Medical Center downtown, that little square park there.  And were 16 sitting there . . . 17 
AJ: I think its called Elliot Park. 18 
DG: Yes, yes  thats the one.  Thank you  Elliot Park.  And Im sitting on the stone steps there and 19 shes standing by me, and she says, Well, I just got some money from back pay from social 20 security, so Ive got a proposition for you.  This organization that we all went to for therapy, a 21 program in human sexuality at the time  now called A Center for Sexual Studies, had a rule that 22 you could only get your letters for surgery approval if your bill was current with them.  And I 23 owed them like $500.  She said, I will loan you the money to pay your bill on the condition that 24 you quit your job and go on welfare.  Once youre on welfare, you can apply for social security 25 and the state will pay for your surgery.  And thats what happened.  I got what I wanted but 26 only by abandoning a principle that Id had most of my adult life, which was you always work.   27 
AJ: Wow.  That is a big sacrifice to become who you truly are.   28 
DG: Well, it was a sacrifice and a step to that.  There was a lot more to learn after that, but I didnt 29 find that out until later.   30 
AJ: Yes . . . no, I absolutely agree, it was a step towards that but it really . . . you had to abandon, or 31 put to the back burner, some principles that you had lived with all of your life.   32 
DG: Now to mention, putting a dead stop to the closest thing I had going, at the time, to anything 33 resembling a career.  I never had that much of a career path to start with, Ive always just done 34 whatever work was there for me to do.  And some of that figured into self-worth because I 35 always assumed I wasnt entitled to a decent good-paying job, I was just supposed to do grunt 36 work because I came from a lower working-class family.  All the men in my family worked in the 37 mines and all the women stayed home.   38 
AJ: What is your current relationship with your birth family? 1 
DG: Mostly pretty good.  Im in close regular contact with a sister who lives up north, she actually 2 built a house on some of our late mothers land  right down the hill from where we grew up, a 3 beautiful house, a beautiful place.  I could have lived in the house actually, the old house we 4 grew up in, but I didnt think I could make it up there.  Most people up there are live and let live, 5 but those that arent are pretty mean about it.  I guess thats true down here too but it seems 6 like it would be a little harder to deal up there.  Theres a line in Priscilla, the line right after the 7 scene where one of the girls goes out and solicits the locals and gets herself beaten up for her 8 trouble. 9 
AJ: I remember that scene.   10 
DG: And Bernadette, the trans woman, says, We bitch about that city like crazy, but in some 11 strange way it protects us.  I think there is some truth in that.   12 
AJ: Yes.   13 
DG: I dont know if its safety in numbers or the option of anonymity or the possibility of community, 14 but cities seem to be, overall, a little bit safer for us. 15 
AJ: And maybe its a combination of all of those.   16 
DG: And maybe thats changing too, I dont know. 17 
AJ: Well there certainly has been a lot of violence directed towards trans women of color lately.  18 Are you aware of some of these issues? 19 
DG: Im aware, I must say I havent kept up as much as I used to.  I was very active for a while in the 20 mid- to late-1990s and I sort of fell away from it. Im starting to re-involve myself and re-connect 21 in a different way.  Its fascinating because our generations tend to last about five years. 22 
AJ: Im not quite sure if Im . . . 23 
DG: For trans people, and this may have changed, but historically for trans people, a generation is 24 about 5-7 years because thats how long an ideal transition lasts.   25 
AJ: OK. 26 
DG: Most of us, maybe most is unfair, but theres a significant number of us that dont want to own 27 trans-identity after transition.  I kind of get that, youre done and youve had enough.  But I cant 28 completely subscribe to it.  Even though Ive done it, I think theres something very dishonest 29 about denying your past  its like just moving from one closet to another one.  Youre going to 30 deny who you are, youre going to stop denying who you are and come out  thats fine.  After 31 you come out, youre going to deny who you were?  Its going to cause just as many problems, I 32 think  maybe more.  But community is tricky.  Ive been fighting this since the 1990s in a 33 pragmatic way.  I was the staff cartoonist for a magazine called TransSisters . . . 34 
AJ: Yeah. 35 
DG: You know of TransSisters? 1 
AJ: I remember that publication.  Do you have any copies of those? 2 
DG: I do.  Ive got a stack of them in the other room.  Ive got a complete set.  Ive got one extra copy 3 of one because I just got contributors copies and there was one where I wrote a review in 4 addition to doing my comic page, so Ive got an extra copy of that one.  Yeah, Im still in contact 5 with the editor, Davina, on Facebook  mostly these days she just talks about rock n roll.  Thats 6 fine, because I also teach history of rock n roll so we have something to say about that.  No, 7 between being the staff cartoonist for that and starting to get involved in trans politics and 8 being more active and being out in the 1990s, I started to feel like there was a real possibility for 9 community.  I was the host for the potlucks at PHS and Id see everybody get together every 10 month and trace peoples progress and everything.  But then I started school again and wasnt 11 able to do that.  I didnt exactly re-closet, I just sort of stopped for a while and I didnt start 12 again. 13 
AJ: You moved on with your life.   14 
DG: Yeah, but not with the degree of authenticity that I might have liked because I got scared again 15 and Ive got to own that.  I dont have to beat myself up about it but Ive got to own it.   16 
AJ: What were you afraid of? 17 
DG: I just didnt want to do it again, Id been through enough.   18 
AJ: So Diana, to the extent youre comfortable, can you tell me a little bit about your medical 19 interventions that you have undergone as a part of your transition? 20 
DG: Sure.  Youre going to need a little more than that  humor has a hesitation device.  Moving on.  21 I started hormones in roughly 1985 and stuck with them right straight through pretty much.  22 There was a couple of times when I couldnt afford them, and that happened just like within the 23 last couple of years, and that wasnt fun.  I had genital reconstruction surgery on August 20, 24 1989.  Two days later I had breast augmentation.  I havent had anything done to my . . . Ive had 25 some laser and some electrolysis.  I havent had anything done to my face other than that.  I 26 havent had any vocal modification.  I had my ears pierced but thats not that uncommon.  27 Actually, I think that was the first thing I did was get my ears pierced because that was the thing 28 that was the easiest to do because it was the most sanctioned.  You could walk in someplace 29 and do it and theyre going to say, Yeah, OK, whatever.   30 
AJ: So you have an anniversary coming up pretty soon. 31 
DG: April 20th.  So sort of just . . . I just had 26 years.  And that was an interesting one . . . 32 
AJ: I just want to clarify because I think you said August 20th. 33 
DG: OK, no  it was April, Im sorry if I misspoke and said August, it was April 20th because I found out 34 later that it was the same day as Hitlers birthday.  In doing some research on the history of the 35 surgeries, one of the things that I found is that some of the techniques that were used, that are 1 traditionally used, were developed by Nazi scientists experimenting on Jews in the camps.   2 
AJ: Hmm . . . wow. 3 
DG: Now how can anybody know something like that about themselves and not feel changed and 4 humbled by it  that you got the thing in life that gives you the greatest possibility for fullness 5 through a suffering thats almost beyond measure by somebody else?   6 
AJ: Wow, I was not aware that that research was happening. 7 
DG: Ive only read it in one place and damned if I can remember where, but there was one book that 8 made mention in passing.  I do remember where  it was in Janice Raymonds book, God Save 9 Us:  The Transsexual Empire, which I felt an obligation to read for some reason.  But in terms of 10 physical, thats pretty much what Ive done.  Theres other voluntary stuff like for a long time 11 when I was in this abusive relationship, when my then partner would go to work Id diet and 12 exercise while he was away and got down to 165 pounds and I looked pretty darn good.  We 13 were supposed to be married and everything, but there were a number of things that went 14 wrong with that  lets put that aside for a moment.   15 
AJ: For a moment, well get back to relationships and love.   16 
DG: This stuff all overlaps anyway.   17 
AJ: It absolutely does.  So looking back over your decision to express your true gender identity, what 18 were some of the pivotal moments that defined your new life?  And would you do anything 19 differently?   20 
DG: Take better care of my teeth . . . no, thats a flip answer!  A real answer . . . lets see.  Pivotal 21 moment, fresh out of high school walking with my friend, Rick, and this guy, Steve, comes riding 22 up on a bike, wearing cutoffs and long, flowing blonde hair  absolutely gorgeous, muscled and 23 sweaty because it was a summer day, and a completely unexpected thumpa, thumpa, thumpa, 24 and Im like, OK, where is this coming from?  And we start this conversation about the Bible 25 and Rick is a devout Mormon  we smoked dope together a few times, but hes still a devout 26 Mormon.  After Steve took off, Rick says, Hes just some dumb faggot.  And I thought, Really?  27 OK.  And that led me to question my sexuality in a different way than I had before.  Shortly 28 after that was when I first made the conscious decision to change.  I was 18 and walking along 29 the railroad tracks and decided I was going to make some phone calls and see how this stuff 30 worked.  And by the time I got home, I had chickened out and didnt do anything about it until I 31 was in my thirties.  Saying out loud . . . telling my potential wife that I was either a cross-dresser 32 or a transsexual before we got married, and backing off a little bit of the truth because . . . well, 33 for one thing I wanted her to marry me, and for another thing I was scared.  That was pivotal.  34 Gradually accepting the truth after six or seven years of living as a married couple and involving 35 her in the cross-dressing community and by extension, ultimately the transgender community.  36 And then coming out itself, that was a pivotal moment.  The first time having sex was a pivotal 37 moment because . . . it was pretty much what I expected and all of a sudden I didnt have to 38 fantasize anymore, I didnt have to pretend anymore  it was just the way it was.   39 
AJ: The first time having sex with a man? 1 
DG: No, that happened before surgery, but the first time having sex post-op and as a female. 2 
AJ: Got it.   3 
DG: No, when I was barhopping, I was with a few guys.  I was OK at it, I was actually a fairly good 4 gold digger for a while.  I was telling my friend Terry, the one that loaned me the money, I said, 5 I never ask these guys for anything, and she said, But youre so good at it.  And after that, 6 when I was dating Curt, and one day in the public library I met Sarah, who is . . . I believe at the 7 time I would classify her as a non-op transsexual.  I think thats the way she classified herself, if 8 you need the language.  I found her very attractive and told her so and we started sort of dating, 9 and sort of just hanging out and doing stuff on the side  while I was dating Curt and she knew 10 all about Curt.  Then I met Alita in the park and Alita was . . . I was 35 at the time and Alita was 11 an 18-year-old former hooker.  We struck up a very deep, very intimate relationship even 12 though she was living with a guy and I was going with Curt and seeing Sarah.   13 
AJ: Wow, thats quite a triangle . . . rectangle, I guess.   14 
DG: Yeah, the only one that didnt know what was going on at the time was Curt, and eventually, of 15 course, it hit the fan because it always does.  But, the long and short of it as a transitional 16 moment was the beginning of fully awakening to who I was sexually beyond just the gender 17 aspect, beyond just identifying as female.  You can say Im a woman, yeah OK  which one?  And 18 that is defined, I think, in inches  bits and pieces thats defined as you go.  So I came to realize 19 by the time Curt and I ended at the end of 1992, I think it was, that I was mostly attracted to 20 women.  I still liked guys OK but I was mostly attracted to women, and I was especially attracted 21 to other trans women.  When I thought about it, that made perfect sense  how could I expect 22 someone to be attracted to somebody like me if I wasnt willing to do that?   23 
AJ: Hmmm.  I have been out for a very long time and I have never thought about it like that.   24 
DG: Well, I dont know if I still see it that way or not but theres a piece of it that will always be true.  25 Its an extension of the argument that feminists used to support lesbians in the early days of 26 second-wave feminism in the late 1960s and early 1970s. If you want somebody to love you, are 27 you willing to love somebody like you?  Thats a good question.  Im not saying everybody has to 28 have the same answer but its a good question and it needs to be recognized.   29 
AJ: I think thats a great question.   30 
DG: So coming to terms with that was a big moment and then coming to terms with the idea that I 31 could have a career, that I could have something financially stable, that I could have a 32 conventional life was a big moment, and that came when I went back to school and finished my 33 degree  my first degree.   34 
AJ: So how do you define yourself, your sexual identity? 35 
DG: If I had to say just one word, Id probably say lesbian but I dont think that fully describes it.  I 36 mostly like other women.  I like trans women but its hard to find a functional relationship  37 well, with anybody but . . . its mostly theoretical the last couple of years since Jenny and I broke 1 up.  Its been seven, eight, nine years now  Jenny and I were together for 10 years.  Jenny is a 2 non-op trans woman and she currently lives in Eau Claire and we keep regular contact and we 3 still love each other dearly.  We just couldnt be together.  It wasnt because we didnt love each 4 other and it wasnt because we didnt care for each other, but we were holding each other back 5 in ways that we didnt really know how to deal with.  And ultimately we wanted such different 6 things out of life that, even though were very comfortable with each other, it just didnt work.  7 It was compounded by a couple things.  She started getting sicker and I wasnt dealing with it 8 well  physically sicker, in terms of having chronic fatigue, and in terms of just getting consistent 9 regular ailments as an extension of that.  And psychologically she was starting to get abhorrent, 10 for want of a better term  just getting more and more screwy and I couldnt deal with it.  And 11 instead of just saying, Look, this is more than I can handle, lets do something about it, I ran 12 back to a guy I dated briefly for a little while and, of course, that was nothing because how could 13 it be anything else at that point.  But, we parted ways  she moved back to Eau Claire to be near 14 her family.  A couple years later she was talking to her mom one afternoon and she stood up 15 and she looked very dizzy and very confused and she started spouting a couple sentences of 16 gibberish and she fell down.  9-1-1 was called, the ambulance rushed her to the hospital and 17 they found out that for the last six years shed had progressive Lyme Disease, which was a 18 contributing factor to her psychological deterioration.  Once she was cured of that, she was 19 almost the same person she was when we first met, and almost the same person that she was 20 when our relationship was at its best.  Weve talked a number of times about do we want to get 21 back together and the conversation always ends with no because I think when youre with 22 somebody for a long time, you end up being the same person with them after a while no matter 23 how you want things to be different.  And I think thats the way it is with us.  She comes to visit 24 every once in a while, Im not really in a position to travel to Eau Claire  besides, I like her 25 family but I dont really want to spend a couple days with them.  But, how do I define?  I pretty 26 much like everybody.  But mostly, theres a few guys that Id still be interested in, but mostly I 27 think guys are scratchy and they smell funny.  Mostly I like other women and I like trans women.   28 
AJ: So lesbian is the label you . . .? 29 
DG: If I had to pick one Id go with either lesbian or bi. 30 
AJ: Great.  I have a question here about relationships and love and how that has been impacted by 31 your gender identity, but youve talked quite a bit about that.  Is there anything else you want to 32 add? 33 
DG: Yeah, I want to talk about Curt.  Curtis Stanley Guard.  I met him when I was managing the 34 theatre in Madison, he worked for me for a little while and that was when I was just coming out.  35 I actually transitioned on that job.  He quit shortly after the transition, shortly after I transitioned 36 and a few months before I moved on.  About a year later I got a phone call from him asking if Id 37 give him a job reference because he was applying for this other job.  I said, Sure, Ill be glad to 38 give you a reference, do you want it in writing?  Sure.  So I wrote him a little letter and sent it 39 off to the address he gave me.  He called me a couple more times after that and then he called 40 to come to visit once, and I said, Sure.  We started talking about music, because we both like 41 Frank Zappa and we had some similar tastes and a few similar experiences, we knew some of 1 the same people.  There was a lull in the conversation and I said, So whats on your mind?  He 2 said, You.  I said, Really?  He said, Well what do you think?  I said, Well I thought so, but I 3 dont know.  So I said, Are you gay? Because most of the guys who have been interested in 4 me have been either gay or bi, and he said, Well, no, I dont think Im gay, but dont you see 5 yourself as a woman?  I said, Yeah, but Im not stupid enough to deny a reality, I havent had 6 surgery.  And we started necking and we started fooling around and . . . he had this vision for a 7 very full life and I was very unsure of myself, so I asked him, Who do you think you are 8 anyway?  I figured nobody really knows the answer to that, and he said, This is my name, I 9 have two-year degrees in these three areas, I currently work in this field, Im interested in this 10 and this and this.  I like this, I dont like that, and I want to own a house and I want to be 11 married.  And he had such a complete and precise answer for, Who do you think you are? 12 and I was impressed by it enough that I just took it for granted that he was right about stuff.  He 13 stuck with me through surgery and he was my first after surgery and even though there were 14 some things about him that were kind of harsh, and some of the things he said struck me as a 15 little rude and occasionally sadistic, I stuck with him because he said he loved me and because 16 he said nobody else would have me.  And I bought it.  And then I did all that soap opera stuff 17 with Alita and Sarah, who forgave me for it all which I was grateful for when it was all said and 18 done.  And I moved in with him.  I moved back to Madison from Minneapolis to live with him 19 with the intent of being married to him.  Within two months of moving there, he was having my 20 mail forwarded to a post office box that only he had access to.  I had to sign my social security 21 checks over to him as a condition of living there and he kept close records of the finances and I 22 could always see those records, so that was perfectly fine.  There was nothing wrong with that.  23 If I needed money for anything I had to ask him.  I remember asking him for money so I could 24 get him a birthday present.  And hed take the phone with him to work, not the body of the 25 phone but just the speaker and the cord.  This was the way I lived.  So he was shutting me off 26 from my friends, he was shutting me off from my family.  One of the things he said to me early 27 in the relationship that didnt sink in on me at the time was, Im going to teach you how to 28 think.  He was a big champion of logic.  He was also quite a rage puppy.   29 
AJ: Logic  l-o-g-i-c? 30 
DG: Yes.  He thought logic was the be all and end all and that emotions were an impediment.  He 31 understood that he had them and had to deal with them, but he didnt like them.  And not liking 32 something is an emotion but I didnt bring that up to him.  We went back and forth for about a 33 year and a half while I lived with him, we were together for five years altogether.  Everything 34 had finally settled down right around Christmas time of . . . Im pretty sure it was Christmas time 35 of 1993 and things were starting to get a little normal.  We were looking at the tree and he said 36 something about, Well, we should get another Enterprise ornament, because were both big 37 Star Trek fans.  And I said, Well, well get one next year.  And he just looked at me a little 38 funny, like, You really think theres going to be a next year?  I didnt think about it because I 39 assumed that sooner later  you know, wed actually looked at rings a little bit and done stuff 40 like that and hed said things like, Youd really look great in a wedding dress, and all this other 41 stuff.  He did actually ask me to marry him once but that was just when he thought Id given him 42 AIDS and as long as we both had it we might as well be married and suffer the rest of our lives 1 together.  He was a childhood-onset diabetic whose health was failing.  And the other reason 2 that he chose me was that he knew that I couldnt get pregnant so he thought I couldnt lie to 3 him.  Hows that for a barometer of trust?  In fairness, some of the stuff that I did after we got 4 together didnt exactly merit trust  the stuff with Alita and the stuff with Sarah.  But I think I 5 was starting to realize what was really going on with him at that time and it was kind of in a way 6 the same as with Jenny, I wasnt willing to face it so I did an end run.  Now Ive talked to my 7 friend Kim about this a lot and she says Im too hard on myself on this.  Maybe, but thats the 8 way I see it.  So, long and short  after all that, were sitting around the house one day, watching 9 something on TV  I dont remember what it was, because we watched a lot of TV.  Wed had 10 supper and the dishes were done and the phone rang.  He goes and picks it up and says, Hello, 11 hello.  And comes back in and I said, Who was it?  He says, I dont know, they hung up.  I 12 said, Oh, OK.  What do you mean?  What?  He said, What are you doing?  Im not doing 13 anything, what are you talking about?  This phone call is some kind of signal, isnt it?  This is 14 some kind of bizarre game youre playing, youre trying to trap me, arent you?  Um, no.  He 15 says, Well, Ive had it with you, I want you out of the house.  I didnt say anything, I went to 16 bed and he went to work the next day.  I was trying frantically to figure out what was going on, I 17 did what I could to call a few friends to see if they could bail me out  this had happened before 18 and I knew who I could count on.  One of the people I called was my ex, Linda, my ex-wife.  And 19 she said, You guys have been through this a lot, why dont you just wait to see what happens?  20 Well he got home from work that night with some friends of his who were visiting from out of 21 town and we had a fairly pleasant evening.  We had a nice little meal, smoked a little bit, and 22 they left and he left with them.  He came back an hour later and I looked at him and he looked 23 at me and he started watching TV and ignoring me and I laid down.  A couple minutes later I got 24 up and I went into the living room, or went into the hallway by the living room, and I said, I was 25 hoping we could talk.  His response was, Fuck you, get out of my life, and he threw an ashtray 26 at my head and it shattered right behind me into a thousand glass pieces all over the floor.  I got 27 very sarcastic and said, Once again, I find myself very swayed by your logic, and I turned 28 around and walked back into the bedroom and I was trembling.  He came in after me and said, 29 Youre not welcome in my bed anymore, get out.  I said, Fine, Ill sleep on the couch, I own 30 the couch  thats my couch.  He said, No, youre not welcome in this house anymore.  Get up 31 and get dressed, youre leaving.  And this whole time Im thinking he has a gun, he made a big 32 deal of having a gun  his gun was a big deal to him.  He showed me how to use it for protection, 33 he loaned it to me for a little while when I was living in Section 8 housing.  He didnt actually pull 34 the gun but he did come close to physically assaulting me.  He was doing this bizarre thing 35 where I was trying to get dressed and he kept walking into me and pushing me with his body.  36 And during this he kept saying . . .  37 
AJ: Intimidating you. 38 
DG: He kept saying, Please push me back, Id love an excuse to beat the shit out of you.  I just kept 39 saying, Whats wrong with you?  Whats the matter?  Why are you doing this?  And he just had 40 this strange sadistic grin on his face.  So I got dressed and I left and I called the cops because I 41 wanted to . . . it was late December in Madison. 42 
AJ: Freezing out. 1 
DG: Yeah, and all I had was the clothes on my back.  He made sure I didnt have any money in my 2 purse, he went through my purse and took all my money before this all started.  I went to a 3 homeless shelter for the night, found my way out to a job that I was just fired from a week or so 4 before that, got my last paycheck and went to the bank and cashed it.  Stopped at the post 5 office and picked up whatever mail was in the box, filed a forwarding address to my friend Kims 6 house, got on the bus to Minneapolis and crashed on her couch for about three weeks to a 7 month while I found a place to live and started over.  The last time I saw him was a few months 8 after that when I testified against him.   9 
AJ: In court? 10 
DG: Yes.  His lawyers and the district attorney all agreed that my gender history shouldnt be an 11 issue for the trial, I think he was ashamed.  But I also think that aside from the fact that he used 12 it as a tool against me, I think it was irrelevant to the matter at hand which was that he abused 13 me  emotionally and it was starting to get physical.  Emotionally, psychologically, and 14 ultimately physical.  If I would have stayed, one of us would have killed the other one  he 15 probably would have killed me.  But he would have had to do it quick.  I looked him up over the 16 course of the next few years and didnt find anything for more than a decade until just about 17 two years ago when I found his obituary.  It turned out that he died just less than a year after we 18 split up.  The obituary didnt specify cause of death but given his health its reasonable to 19 assume it was complications of diabetes.   20 
AJ: So much like the relationship with Jenny, there could have been some residual sort-of 21 psychological challenges. 22 
DG: Possibly.  Curt came before Jenny.   23 
AJ: OK.  But similar to that. 24 
DG: Jenny and I met when we were both coming off abusive relationships and we agreed not to do 25 that to each other and I think we succeeded. 26 
AJ: No, I wasnt comparing the relationships but just more or less thinking about how you stated six 27 years later the Lyme Disease became a realization that there was some mental health stuff that 28 was being caused by that disease and maybe . . . because I know that diabetes can impact our 29 mental faculties as well. 30 
DG: He was also a drinker and aside from the fact that boozers, in general, are not particularly nice 31 people most of the time, alcohol is five carb and sugar molecule.  Its probably not a good idea 32 for a diabetic to have a lot  not that its all that great for anybody.  I have no real moral 33 aversion to it, I dont do it very often but I do take a drink once in a while. 34 
AJ: Have there been times when someone has been really helpful or insensitive related to medical 35 personnel and the criminal justice system or educational institutions? 36 
DG: Ive been sneered at by firefights who were called in an emergency when a friend was pushed 1 down the stairs and her head was cut open and I called them to get help.  I got some snide 2 remarks about my . . . apparently it was pretty obvious to them about my gender, from one of 3 the firefighters.  I havent had any real adverse reactions from medical personnel aside from one 4 dentist at Northpoint Health Center.  I used to go get Novocain shots in my upper lip so I could 5 go get electrolysis without . . . because thats where its the worst  oh boy.  One time there was 6 a substitute dentist and I explained what I was doing and he got this look on his face like Id 7 contaminated him somehow.  He gave me the shots but they hurt a lot more than they usually 8 did.  I saw a note they put on the charting which said, Please do not schedule me for these 9 anesthetic shots [in quotation marks] anymore.  I thought, Fuck you.  I thought about 10 reporting him but I thought Id probably never have to deal with this guy again and I let it go.  In 11 retrospect I should have reported it.  Theres probably been a lot of stuff thats happened that 12 Ive been oblivious to but for the most part, I think people have pretty much treated me with 13 respect, probably more than Ive given myself at times.  Maybe that sounds harsh but again 14 thats just the way I see it.  When I was first going to MCAD for my bachelors degree, one of the 15 first classes I had to take was a Foundation 3D class and there was a woman named Sam who 16 was working in the shop and she was showing everybody how the equipment worked.  I was 17 there, I was all eager and just wanted to know  because I thought it was pretty cool that in 18 order to get a degree in Comic Book Art I had to learn how to weld.   19 
AJ: I would have never thought that. 20 
DG: Yeah, who knew?  The reason it comes to mind is that I ran into her at PI Bar six years later and 21 she said, Youll never know how much . . . I want to tell you how much you meant to me.  I 22 said, What did I do?  I was miserable, I was trying to come to terms with my sexual identity 23 and you were standing there out and proud and smiling in the middle of everybody.  It just 24 inspired me to start to come out.  And I started to make like, Oh, thats nothing, I didnt really 25 do anything. And she stopped me and said, Dont.  Dont diminish that, that was a really big 26 thing for me and you were the one that did it, so thank you.  OK.   27 
AJ: Wow, thats a beautiful story. 28 
DG: Yeah, it was a beautiful moment.  You get a few of those.  This stuff hasnt all been misery, I feel 29 a lot of it has been pretty good.  Im just rehashing some of the more difficult parts right now. 30 
AJ: Yeah.  When is the first time that you met a trans-identified person? 31 
DG: Oh, boy  thats tricky.  Let me think about that.  There may have been something before that 32 but the first time I remember was in the waiting room at PHS when Linda and I were there 33 waiting for my first therapy appointment.  There was this blonde woman who was about 61 34 and just under 200 lbs. and she looked all right.  We later became roommates for a long time, 35 we got really close for a while emotionally.  We werent that close physically because she mostly 36 likes guys and I wasnt that into her that way anyway.  But anyway, I saw her and was like, 37 Yeah, all right, good for you.  She was wearing this really nice tailored skirt, her make-up was 38 well done, had the nice nails, decent figure.  I found out later that she had puberty-onset 39 gynecomastia so her boobs were all her, more power to her  which must have been big fun in 1 high school. 2 
AJ: Thats kind of tough actually. 3 
DG: Yeah, I havent had the pleasure, not for that part anyway.  But she was filling out some forms 4 and the receptionist asked her a question and she looked up and she smiled and gave this chirpy 5 little answer.  There was this guy there with his spouse and when he saw her he turned to his 6 wife and said, Im going out for a cigarette, and he looked at her and said, I may not be back.  7 I remember thinking, You mouthy jerk.  I chickened out, but I almost said, Well you better be 8 mad at me too because Im here for the same thing, but I didnt.  I wasnt quite ready to be that 9 public yet.  But I think that was the first time I actually met somebody.   10 
AJ: And you guys became friends, huh? 11 
DG: Yes, we ended up in the same therapy group and we started talking and hanging out.  We 12 shared a place for three or four years, first in Plymouth and then in South Minneapolis.  That 13 was around the time that I started coming into my own a little bit and around the time that my 14 finances started to cave in.  And that happens to a lot of us. 15 
AJ: Absolutely. 16 
DG: I havent always behaved with integrity around money and Ive got to own that too. 17 
AJ: You say you havent always? 18 
DG: No.  My financial history is very spotty.  I had to file bankruptcy in order to get surgery and 19 circumstances led me to file bankruptcy again about six years ago.  Historically, Ive been 20 chronically either unemployed or underemployed.  A couple years ago when MCAD didnt have 21 a lot of classes for me and I couldnt find any other work, my gross income for the year was 22 $11,000.   23 
AJ: Which is just a tad bit above the average for transgendered people in the country according to 24 the . . .  25 
DG: And a skoch below poverty line, how about that? 26 
AJ: And just a skoch below poverty line.  What was your coming out story like to your family and 27 friends? 28 
DG: Different facets.  I told my mother I was a cross-dresser first, and showed her pictures.  She 29 thought I looked good and that was fine.  Things kept progressing and I told her on the phone 30 that some things had changed and she said, Are you planning a trip to Sweden?  Because we 31 both knew about Christine Jorgensen and I said, No, these days its mostly Colorado.  And she 32 took a breath and she said, Youre my kid no matter what.  Later on she wrote me a letter that 33 said, This seems right, but be careful.  Sometimes the relief over having made a big decision can 34 be confused with it being the right decision.  And she said, Im not saying that this is wrong for 35 you, Im saying you need to think about that a little.  I thought that was really good.  And we 36 worked together on telling my brothers and sisters.  My older sister was fine, my younger sister 1 said, Oh my goodness, and then she was fine.  My older younger brother didnt really care, he 2 was the one that we always fought when we were kids anyway.  And my younger younger 3 brother, the one that was really close to me, he took it hard. He came around but he took it 4 hard.  He just didnt understand.  I wrote him a letter and said, Look, we dont have much 5 choice in this.  This is the way it is and its been screwing up my whole life and I have to deal 6 with it. He got it.  Its taken some time but theyve come around, probably more than I gave 7 them credit for at the outset, but theyve come around.  I told my dad in a letter about a year 8 after I came out and I got a postcard back from him and Audrey saying, Jesus loves you and so 9 do we.  And then he started his campaign of trying to change my mind  sending me Bibles with 10 my old name on them.  And he knew that I was so invested in respect that I wasnt going to say, 11 The hell with you.  I ended up just giving the Bible away, because I already had a Bible anyway 12  what did I care?  I almost sent it back and said, If you really want me to read this, put the right 13 name on it.  But I chickened out because my dad was starting to get sick at that point, the 14 smoking was starting to get the better of him, and he died within two years after that.  He did 15 get to see me as me once.  I went to visit.  They were in Atlanta, Georgia and I went down to 16 visit and I was subdued until my last day there.  I wore my hair back and lighter make-up and 17 wore slacks, but the last day there I wore a dress and proper make-up and he was kind of 18 shocked.  I gave him a goodbye hug and told him that I loved him and his response was, God 19 love you.  Actually he said, God love you, son.  On his death bed he still thought it was wrong, 20 he still thought I was going to hell and I was being chased by the devil.  He thought thats what it 21 was really all about  that the devil was inside me and making me do this.  People must not have 22 a very high opinion of humanity if they think were that easily manipulated.   23 
AJ: Right.  What do you think the relationship between the LGB and the T is like? 24 
DG: Better.  Its still not good but its better.   25 
AJ: OK. 26 
DG: I learned a lot about the history from talking to people and from reading books by Leslie 27 Feinberg and stuff like that.  Historically, the way the gay and lesbian communities had used the 28 trans community for a long time was to take our labor and then throw us the hell out.  We were 29 often vilified  Im thinking of people like Sandy Stone, Janice Raymonds book, Mary Dalys 30 stuff.  All the 1970s vehement anti-trans rhetoric.   31 
AJ: Right. 32 
DG: And how were supposedly, especially male to female transsexuals, are supposedly subverting 33 female identity and female space.  And then all the garbage in the 1990s with the Michigan 34 Womens Music Festival, which just is having its last year this year.   35 
AJ: It is this year, its the last one. 36 
DG: Yeah.  Apparently there was only one trans woman who was ever actually excluded from that so 37 even though it was a valid issue, it was kind of a tempest in a teapot.  I think it is starting to 38 come around to the point now where there is something closer to acceptance.  I dont think 39 were fully there yet and I think part of that goes on us because we take such a beating in the 1 process that we dont always have the strength to keep fighting.  Full props to people like Kate 2 Bornstein who have been in the trenches for decades and are still fighting the good fight. 3 
AJ: Absolutely. 4 
DG: But, not everybody has that in them.  Im always reminded of the scene in Monty Pythons Life 5 of Brian where the rivaling factions meet in the catacombs of Jerusalem and start beating each 6 other up and one of them shouts, Brothers and sisters, we should be struggling together.  And 7 somebody else says, We are.  I think its up to us to make it better but weve been at it long 8 enough that its starting to happen on a substantial level.  I think that genuine acceptance by all 9 parts of the gay communities is never going to be there.  And some of that is their bias and some 10 of that is that we cant get it together to accept ourselves, so its kind of the same thing.  If you 11 cant accept yourself how do you expect somebody else to do it? 12 
AJ: What do you think the agenda should be for the transgender community? 13 
DG: This is tough, because in order for there to be an agenda you have to tell somebody else how to 14 live their life and I dont think thats right.  I think we have to decide that we want to be a 15 community first of all and we have to stick to it.  We have to decide that that means 16 encouraging people to stick around and helping people to overcome the things that stop them 17 from sticking around.  And we have to be willing to let them go when they dont want to instead 18 of pillaring for them  otherwise were just doing the same things that put us down.  Im 19 reminded of . . . do you read comics at all? 20 
AJ: I havent for a long time. 21 
DG: Oh, theres so much work to do.  A really great writer named Neil Gaiman, whose prose novels 22 have been on the New York Times best seller lists for . . . 23 
AJ: I know the novelist, yes.   24 
DG: Yeah, he got his big break in writing with a comic called The Sandman, which is about the lord of 25 dreaming, the personification of dreams, he was in charge of the realm of dream.  One of the 26 stories he has is called A Dream of a Thousand Cats.  This kitten sneaks out of its house to go to 27 this big meeting with all these other cats . . . Im going somewhere with this, so stick with it.  28 And at the meeting this matronly cat gets up and makes a speech.  She talks about how her 29 kittens were taken from her and drowned because they werent purebred and how it left her 30 feeling completely powerless and in no control of her own life.  And she went on a pilgrimage to 31 meet the lord of dreams and ask why this was so.  And the lord of dreams, in the cats world, of 32 course, is a cat.  So she meets the lord of dreams who tells her, Well it wasnt always this way, 33 it used to be the cats were huge and people were small, about the size of mice relatively, and 34 people would groom cats, cats would play with people and cats would hunt people.  It was a 35 very rich, full life and cats ran the world.  Until one night one of the men got a thousand other 36 men and women to dream a different world and when everybody woke up it was the way it is 37 now and the only way to get it back is to get a thousand cats to dream of the old world.  And 38 shes on this mission to go around talking to different cats getting them all on board with this.  39 After the speech, the kitten goes up and says, Yeah, I believe.  The matron says, Well then 1 theres hope.  And the kitten is talking to one of the other cats there and the other cat says, 2 Well the day you can get a thousand cats to agree on anything . . .  And thats the kind of the 3 way I see us.  We dont agree, and maybe we dont have to  we have to agree enough that we 4 can survive and that our lives can get better.  The question is, do we have . . . and this is a 5 question I put to Gail Jorgensen, a publisher at TNT News, when she came to visit.   6 
AJ: What is TNT? 7 
DG: Its a trans information and politics magazine that came out around the same time as 8 TransSisters.  It ran about eight or nine issues and I was a cartoonist for that too.   9 
AJ: Do you know when that . . .? 10 
DG: Mid-1990s.  Ive got them in the other room, I can dig them out.   11 
AJ: Great. 12 
DG: But the question is what makes a community?  Is just having trans identity enough of a 13 commonality to build a community and enough to sustain a community?  I dont know.  I think 14 its enough for gay people because there are enough gay people, and even then there are plenty 15 of gay people that dont identify with community, dont want anything to do with it, and just go 16 about their lives.  But when the numbers get smaller, a percentage that doesnt want anything 17 to do with it makes a bigger difference.  So Id like us to have community and I come and go on 18 it, and part of it is that the issues for an individual change too.  When I get together with young 19 trans women who are just starting their journey, its all eagerness and enthusiasm.  I recognize 20 that and I remember that, and its infectious.  But its electrolysis this and hormones that and 21 androgen blockers and the other  and come on.  I get it, its important to you, but Ive been 22 there and Ive got other things to worry about.  Ill do what I can to help but I dont know how 23 much stamina I have to revisit something that was that tough.  Right now, it seems to me in my 24 life, that aside from some issues I had with insurance that stopped me from taking them for 25 about a year, stuff like hormones is pretty trivial.  I get it that its crucial to you right now but 26 peoples goals change, peoples ambitions change, and what people need in their lives changes.  27 And in that respect I think were no different than anybody else, its just that other people are 28 able to build community around that a little more readily, I think, than we are.  I dont think its 29 impossible but I think its tough.  I think that there has been some progress made  a lot.   30 
AJ: Great insights. 31 
DG: I mean, look how far weve come since Comptons  my God.   32 
AJ: Comptons? 33 
DG: Oh, you dont know . . . thats so cool.   34 
AJ: Well I know, but I want you to tell our listeners. 35 
DG: Comptons Cafeteria is . . .  36 
AJ: Late 1960s, Los Angeles. 1 
DG: Using the terminology of the day, a tranny hangout in San Francisco.   2 
AJ: San Francisco  right. 3 
DG: And it predates Stonewall by a year and a half.  It was a community that was being routinely 4 harassed and physically beaten by the cops and one night they just decided theyd had enough.  5 They tore the hell out of the place and they tore the hell out of the cops and they made it their 6 own.  There was this sense of real power and real empowerment that came out of that and it 7 was the beginning of something  the beginning of something substantial, the beginning of 8 something tangible, the beginning of something real.  People standing up and saying, Were not 9 going to take it.  And Stonewalls great, Im glad people celebrate Stonewall and PRIDE and all 10 that, but come on  we were there first. 11 
AJ: And many of those women were trans women of color  at Comptons. 12 
DG: Yes, exactly so.  And at Stonewall too.  Look at Sylvia Rivera. 13 
AJ: Absolutely.  Marsha P. Johnson. 14 
DG: Yes. 15 
AJ: There were many, many women of color who were at the forefront of this movement and as 16 you noted even prior to Stonewall.   17 
DG: Yes, and I think that plays somewhat into some of our issues around shame because I have a 18 really hard time with hag drag.  I get it that thats on me but at the same time, I dont want to be 19 identified with someone who I perceive as mocking the nobility of womanhood.   20 
AJ: So what is hag drag? 21 
DG: Hag drag is also sometimes called gender fuck.  Its an individual who adopts some of the 22 characteristics that are culturally associated with the opposite gender in an extreme and 23 caricatured way while maintaining a very clear basis in their cis identity.   24 
AJ: So a man in a dress with a beard. 25 
DG: A man in a dress with a beard, heavy make-up, and fishnets and just hands way over the line.  26 The stereotypical screaming queen in drag not even bothering to try and hide.  Theres 27 something very powerful and very noble about that, but as trans identity I see it as 28 counterproductive.  I recognize that its part of it and I get that, but I think . . . this all sounds so 29 bigoted when I put it this way and I dont mean it to, but I really think that that stuff is of more 30 use in a radical fairy conference.  And that sounds sort of like, Oh, go be in your corner, and 31 thats not what I mean.  I guess its personal because I feel like Ive worked hard to be authentic 32 and I feel like somebody just being flamboyant and ostentatious is ridiculing that effort.  I dont 33 think thats what they mean to do but thats the way it comes across to me.   34 
AJ: I totally get it.  Have you ever volunteered or worked for a trans or LGBT organization?  I know 1 you talked a little bit about your work at the program with human sexuality. 2 
DG: There was that.  I started a community-based support group through Sabathani Center, at the 3 time it was called Out Front, I think.   4 
AJ: It is Out Front.  The gay, lesbian . . . 5 
DG: What was it before Out Front?  Before it was Out Front it was Quorum and before that it was 6 something else  back in the 1990s. 7 
AJ: I cant remember the name but I think it was like the Gay, Lesbian  GLCC or something like that. 8 
DG: Yeah, that sounds about right.  I started a group through them, I did some speaking at fund 9 raisers for different political candidates.  I marched PRIDE parade the year that Norm Coleman 10 decided not to sign the proclamation because it was trans inclusive and I got to stand on stage 11 behind Paul Wellstone in response to that, which was a really interesting experience because he 12 was very supportive.  But at the same time I saw him for just a minute afterwards and it was just 13 him and me and I wanted to shake his hand and thank him and there was this incredible fear in 14 his eyes.  I just figured, Your heart is in the right place, Paul, but youre not quite there yet with 15 us.  And I figured, OK, either hell come around or he wont.  And well never find out now, 16 more is the pity, because I think Paul would have done some really good work for us if he would 17 have toughed it out and made it all the way through and not had the audacity to die.  After that, 18 the PHS stuff, the group stuff, my cartooning on trans issues for trans publications.  I was a 19 volunteer layout artist for a paper in Madison called Feminist Voices that outed me as trans and 20 wanted to kick me off the paper and I said, The hell with that.  It turned into a big discussion in 21 the paper and about one-third of the letters they got were, Well, of course, this is a women 22 only space, this person cant be there.  And the other two-thirds were, You guys should be 23 ashamed of yourselves.  I only stuck with it for a little while  thats when I was with Curt and I 24 was trying to re-establish some form of connection with something.  I volunteered to layout the 25 paper because it also kept my design and illustration chops current at a time when I wasnt 26 working. 27 
AJ: What year was that, do you remember? 28 
DG: 1993.  1992 or 1993, it was the year before I moved back here after Curt and I broke up and I 29 was homeless for a little while. 30 
AJ: So now youre an artist and illustrator, youve talked about that.  Tell us a little bit about your 31 artwork. 32 
DG: I write and draw comic books.  Every now and then I do other stuff but mostly I write and draw 33 comic books.  Im not as prolific as Id like to be but thats just because Im not always that 34 motivated by own work.  I teach about comics. I just finished teaching a class on comic book 35 writing last night, which was too much fun. 36 
AJ: And you teach at the Minneapolis Community . . .  37 
DG: I teach wherever theyll take me and mostly thats been MCAD, mostly thats been Minneapolis 1 College of Art and Design, but Ive also taught in private for-profit colleges, Ive taught in 2 community centers, Ive taught in Jewish Community Centers.  Ill go wherever theyll give me a 3 class, pretty much.  Im not as aggressive about pursuing as I used to be because its hard to 4 make a living doing that, as I eluded to earlier.  In terms of my own work, Ive self-published 5 three books, I was published professionally in a 1990s comic called, Gay Comics, issues number 6 18 and 25.   7 
AJ: All right. 8 
DG: I had a strip called Tranny Towers that ran in Lavender magazine when Lavender was first 9 starting up for about a year and a half.  When I didnt want to be known as a transsexual, which . 10 . . OK, I didnt for a while.   11 
AJ: Thats quite all right. 12 
DG: Well I hope so because it is the way it is.  People would ask me, Well, whats your comic 13 about?  Id look them dead in the eyes and say, Its about a transsexual skunk.  OK.  And the 14 notion was, you know, to people that dont read comics the notion of the funny animal comic, 15 the animal with human characteristics or the human with animal characteristics, is so absurd 16 that it just got a smile out of them and they didnt look beyond that  because most people 17 dont know much about comics and most people dont care.  Its taken me a long time to accept 18 that because comics are pretty much my life.  I love comics, I always have.  My current big 19 project, BIG project, is a graphic memoir.  Ive been doing it in short chapters, which I work in 20 short stories and theres a resolution to each chapter with the hope that theyll all breach 21 together.  Ive done three or four of them so far and Ive just . . . I poke at it a little bit now and 22 then, its going to take me awhile to actually decide to get it together.  I think whats going to 23 make me do it finally is if I get a grant for it because then I have an outside impetus and a 24 deadline and I need that.  But the last one I did was called, Get a Job.  I was approached by 25 one of my comic scholar peers who was running an LGBT film festival in Russia and wanted some 26 comics for a book they were putting together to accompany the festival.  So I did a seven-page 27 story, a very abridged version of my job history since coming out.  And the beauty part of it was 28 that it was published in English and in Russian  Ive been published in Russian.  So its not 29 something Ive made a lot of money at and Ive resigned myself to the kind of work I do Im not 30 going to make a lot of money at it, but I might make a couple bucks and Ive got no problem 31 with making a couple bucks, which is something I didnt always used to believe.  I was raised to 32 believe that . . . I dont know if I was raised to it but I grew to believe that money was an 33 inherent evil and that there was something noble about poverty.  No theres not, theres 34 nothing noble about it.  Poverty just makes you hungry. 35 
AJ: Yes, agreed. 36 
DG: Poverty is so overrated  been there too many times.  So yeah, comics  I write and draw 37 comics, occasionally I write prose.  Ive also done a fair amount of academic and scholarly 38 writing on comics, and on comics and queer issues.  One of my more successful articles  well, 39 theres two.  There was one that was published in an anthology on Comics in the 1950s, which 40 was about homoerotic subtexts in EC horror comics in the 1950s.  And there was one I did called 1 Cops and Queers Everywhere which was about GLBT subtext in underground comics in the late 2 1960s and early 1970s.  My hope at one point was to do a book on GLBT comics history but 3 somebody else has already done that book now.  I felt kind of left out because I did the first 4 trans comic strip by a trans woman and I wasnt included in the book.  I called the editor on it 5 later and said, If this stuff comes up again I want to know about it.  Because Im making a 6 documentary now on the history of GLBT comics.  And he said, Well, I dont have much to do 7 with that and heres the person who does.  Well see.  I just dont . . . Im proud of that strip 8 and it deserves a proper collection and thats on me to finish it and do the kick-starter and blah, 9 blah, blah.  Ive got about a year and a half worth of strips.  Right now if I put everything 10 together its about sixty pages.  Do one more story just to let people know where everybody 11 ended up, the cast of characters, and then do it as a proper book.  That would be nice.  The 12 Tranny Towers, the Ultimate Edition.  The name came from the Section 8 building that I lived in 13 when I was on welfare.  There were eight of this in this 15-unit building and the neighbors called 14 it Tranny Tower and they did not mean it as a compliment.  But we owned it.   15 
AJ: And you wrote a strip about it. 16 
DG: Well, it was funny animal stuff.  The straight post-op was a skunk, the lesbian post-op was a 17 raccoon, the straight pre-op was a beaver  you know, people that just happened to look a little 18 bit like critters.  For the last strip I was thinking about doing something where the tails just all 19 fell off and they were just them.  But I didnt, I just left it open-ended so that there could be 20 another story if there needed to be. 21 
AJ: Well Diana, this has been fascinating being able to spend time with you and hear about your life 22 and hear about your work and some of your thoughts about the community.  Is there anything 23 else you would like to share? 24 
DG: Without sounding preachy, I think . . . 25 
AJ: Preachy is OK. 26 
DG: No, its not . . . well, I guess theres a reason to preach to the choir.  You preach to the choir, 27 because if you dont preach to the choir, the choir is not going to sing.  If the choir doesnt sing, 28 the collection plate goes now, church closes up  youve got to preach to the choir, it doesnt 29 matter if they already believe you or not.  In spite of everything, or maybe because of it, I still 30 have hope.  Theres some things I wish I would have done differently, a lot of things I wish I 31 would have done differently, mostly around money.  If there was one thing Id encourage young 32 trans people to do it is watch your pennies.  Start a 401(k) and stick with it  take whatever work 33 you can, put those pennies aside because youre going to need them and odds are youre going 34 to have to cash it all in a couple times, youre going to have to give up a couple times.  And 35 coming back from that is really tough.  It doesnt mean it cant be done, but its really tough.  If 36 you want to have that full life, youre going to need the money.  But youre going to need to be 37 full spiritually too, youre going to need to be awake to who you are and awake to the 38 possibilities of existence.  But I think maybe thats what it really all is.  Susan Kimberly, former 39 deputy mayor of St. Paul, profound woman  I havent talked to her for a long, long time.  I used 40 to be in a support group that she ran and we were pretty close friends for a little while, kind of 1 lost track of her because we travel in different circles.  But in her memoir, which I was privileged 2 to read part of as it was a work in progress, she describes the coming out process as a 3 conversation with the world in which you say to the world, Look, Im not the person you 4 thought I was but this is who I am and Im still a good person.  And ideally the world responds, 5 Well, of course, youre a good person and thank you so much for clearing that up.  Id really 6 like to reach the point where thats the conversation we have.  Of course were good people, we 7 just need to clear this up. 8 
AJ: Exactly. Thank you.  9 
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