 
 
 
 
Chloe Alexa Landry Narrator   Andrea Jenkins Interviewer 
 
 
 
 
 
The Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies University of Minnesota 
 
 
 
 
 
  

  
 
The Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story, while providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source material about the transgender community.  The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for current and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public. 
The Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300 individuals over the next three years.  Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and experiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality.  This project will be led by Andrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist.  Andrea brings years of experience working in government, non-profits and LGBT organizations.  If you are interested in being involved in this exciting project, please contact Andrea. 
Andrea Jenkins jenki120@umn.edu (612) 625-4379 
 
 
 
 
  
Andrea Jenkins  -AJ 1 
Chloe Alexa Landry -CAL 2 
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AJ:  My name is Andrea Jenkins and I am the oral historian with the Transgender Oral History Project 5 at the University of Minnesota.  I am here today with Chloe Alexa Landry and were just going to 6 spend a little time together talking about your history and your life experience as a transgender 7 person in the upper Midwest.  Chloe, can you tell me your full name, your preferred gender 8 pronouns  how you prefer people to refer to you, as well as your gender identity, how you see 9 yourself, and what was your gender assigned at birth? 10 
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CAL: Gender assigned at birth was male and as a little kid, I accepted that until 1943  three years 12 old, at that time and my mother comes home with my sister.   13 
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AJ: You were three? 15 
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CAL: I was three.   17 
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AJ: OK. 19 
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CAL: She brings home Pat.  Patty was getting diapered one day so she was naked and I came up and 21 looked at her and when mom came back, I said, When do I get one of those? pointing to you 22 know what.  23 
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AJ: Her vagina? 25 
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CAL: Yes.   27 
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AJ: OK. 29 
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CAL: And whatever mom said, that little three-year-old boy understood never ask this question of an 31 adult again.  My mother wasnt too great at answering questions that didnt scare you and so I 32 put that aside.  Four years later in grade school, we had a very mean nun that became principal 33 there.  She, in turn, took one of the seventh or eighth grade boys that liked playing near the girls 34 all the time, she dressed him up as a girl  shoes, anklets, barrettes, and everything.  And I 35 thought, Im crying because I want to dress like that, why cant I?  And then I saw why.  She 36 was ridiculed by her peers, all the other boys, and when she, I use the term she because she was 37 looking good, when she came around the corner and the girls saw her, Id say they were worse 38 than the boys.   39 
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AJ: Really? 41 
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CAL: Yes.   43 
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AJ: So that traumatized you. 45 
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CAL: That meant that never share this with anybody else.  The sad thing is, through my life my best 1 buddy, I met him on the steps of kindergarten in 1945, he died in 1986 of AIDS, and Ive had a 2 number of other friends that they died in 1986 because of AIDS, but I never got to share it with 3 them.  I was part of the group and never knew it.   4 
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AJ: Oh wow.  Let me just go back a little bit, because you told me a lot already.  Where did you go to 6 grammar school?  Where are you from? 7 
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CAL: If you look out that window behind you, its the city of Minneapolis.  Were on the 21st floor and 9 as the crow flies, its not even a mile from the window here where I grew up  its on 10 Washington Street and Broadway in Northeast Minneapolis. 11 
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AJ: So you were born and raised in Minneapolis? 13 
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CAL: All in Minneapolis, and the school I went to was a Catholic school, it only had four rooms in it 15 and four teachers for eight grades.   16 
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AJ: Wow.   18 
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CAL: It was interesting and different. 20 
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AJ: Yeah, thats an interesting school.  You went to school in 1946? 22 
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CAL: I started in 1945-46, and when I started school we were taught in French and English.  But by 24 1947, everything was straight English.  All of the schools over in this whole area where ethnic 25 schools where they . . . 26 
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AJ: Can you say the name of the school? 28 
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CAL: It was Our Lady of Lourdes or Notre Dame, which is Our Lady in French.  The school is gone and 30 theres a senior high rise . . . high rise, all four floors.   31 
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AJ: Oh goodness.  What was your home life like?  Your mom sort of . . .? 33 
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CAL: Mom was . . . lets put it this way, I never could have a conversation with her about feelings.   35 
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AJ: Really? 37 
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CAL: Theres one event . . . we went to a movie back in 1946 or 1947 and it was that priest that 39 started Boys Town.  That night when we came home, I was crying in the bedroom and she came 40 in and I shared that . . . the priest and the stuff, it was just sad.  And she said, Thats just a 41 movie, dont do that.  But there was . . . as kids, myself and two sisters, could never share our 42 feelings with her, it was only her feelings that counted.  Other than that, my father  he really 43 took care of me, we were best buddies.  And unfortunately he died of chemical poisoning in 44 1956. 45 
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AJ: So you were fairly young. 1 
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CAL: Two days before my sixteenth birthday.   3 
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AJ: Oh boy.  So after that you guys lived . . . just mom? 5 
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CAL: Just mom. 7 
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AJ: Did she remarry? 9 
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CAL: Oh God, no.  She . . . well skip this part.   11 
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AJ: OK, thats fine. 13 
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CAL: That was things that she did, it was her life.  But we did our thing too.   15 
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AJ: How many brothers and sisters did you have? 17 
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CAL: I have two sisters.  Theyre both younger, were all . . . were three years apart to the first sister 19 and six years apart to the second sister.   20 
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AJ: OK, so three years . . .  22 
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CAL: And months at the same time.   24 
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AJ: How were they growing up? 26 
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CAL: We all felt about the same in many things, we jokingly refer back to certain nights and stuff.  My 28 two sisters, theyre very different and they . . . my first sister, Pat and I, we get along real well.  29 There was a time there that we didnt.  Right now, her husband passed a couple years ago and I 30 told her about what I am.  I lucked out in that case.  My youngest sister, her girlfriends daughter 31 is now her son and is a doctor and a lawyer in Hawaii . . . 32 
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AJ: Hang on, wait a minute.  You just kind of dropped a little bomb in there.  34 
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CAL: What was the little bomb? 36 
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AJ: You said, Your sisters daughter is now her son?   38 
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CAL: No, no  not my sisters daughter.  My sisters girlfriends daughter.  No, not my sister.  Her 40 daughter and I get along great  thats my niece.  And my niece and I talk for hours on the 41 phone, her mother and I . . . if the conversation lasts three minutes, its epic.   42 
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AJ: So who is this person again that lives in Hawaii? 44 
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CAL: It was the daughter of her girlfriend, she became a trans man and she is now a doctor and a 1 lawyer in Hawaii.   2 
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AJ: Wow, a doctor and a lawyer.   4 
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CAL: And a lawyer.  My sister understood that.  My first sister, Pat, she got it because she was an HR 6 person for some major corporations and shes helped people like me go through the transition 7 and be introduced into the workforce. 8 
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AJ: This is such a rich conversation, Chloe Alexa, but you did not tell us how you identify.   10 
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CAL: Presently? 12 
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AJ: Yes. 14 
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CAL: All right.  Chloe was hidden for years.  She dressed, albeit in many cases ashamedly, in wherever 16 I lived or worked with the door locked and barred.  I kept a box of clothes, the box was marked 17 Halloween clothes, and I would take them out when nobody was coming around and I had 18 work to do.  Id get high heels out, all the clothes, dress up, and put a bar on the door and go to 19 work.  I would work all day that way and then take them off and go back home at night.   20 
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AJ: Wow.  How long did this go on? 22 
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CAL: That went on up until . . . I went into the VA in 2010, prostate test in October and they said, 24 You have cancer.  I said, Great.  And well take care of it.  A week later there was a second 25 test for the colon and after I got off the table, the doctor holds up a picture saying, Do you 26 know what that is?  I said, Yes, youve got cancer and its ASAP, correct? Yes.  I said, The 27 surgical time is already allotted, its yours.  A couple days before Thanksgiving in 2010 they did 28 the colon surgery and 2011 was the year that Chloe learned how Chloe got to be.  Spent the 29 whole year on chemotherapy so youre not in very good condition to work or do stuff.  At that 30 time, I searched the internet for everything I could find and I read daily on it.  I became part of 31 replying to a number of different groups on there, which I still do. 32 
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AJ: About? 34 
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CAL: About being trans. 36 
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AJ: OK, she finally said it.   38 
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CAL: Yes.  In 2011 at the VA, the Veterans Administration here in Minneapolis, I met a trans lady 40 before when I was there for some medical stuff and we became friends. 41 
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AJ: Did she work there? 43 
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CAL: She was working there at the time and she was also, like me, a customer.  What we did is . . . I 45 called her up in 2011 and I asked her, Is the VA doing anything on trans people?  And she said, 46 
Yes, we just started a group.  This would have been February of 2011, I got into the group 1 shortly after it had started, and in there they ask you, Whats your name and what pronouns do 2 you prefer?   3 
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AJ: Really? 5 
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CAL: Yes.   7 
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AJ: In the group or at the VA? 9 
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CAL: The first day in the group.  I said, Chloe, and female pronouns.  And that started it, Chloe was 11 finally out.   12 
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AJ: Wow.  So, youve been living your life as Chloe Alexa since 2011? 14 
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CAL: 2011, yes.   16 
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AJ: Before then, was there any emotional drama for you?  Did you feel, in any way, depressed or 18 down or you just lived your life? 19 
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CAL: No, I lived it.  And Ive given a lot of thought to that too.  A couple things transpired in there.  21 Back in 1961 I seriously was looking into transition at that time  physically. 22 
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AJ: In 1961? 24 
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CAL: 1961.  I had the money to do it, I had the inclination.  When I did some research on the surgery, 26 thats the part that made me very leery.  It was not like it is today.  By 1969, I got married in 27 1969, and thats when Renee Richards and Lynn Conway went through their surgery, which was 28 a lot better than 1961.  And I thought, Missed the mark.  I was married 19 years and back a 29 year or so before I got divorced, I attempted to explain it to my wife what I was, the need for 30 dressing.  We didnt have the word transgender then, we had some other stuff.  She was a nurse 31 and a professor of nursing at the University of Minnesota.  That was one of the leading places 32 for this at one time.   33 
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AJ: Absolutely.  It still is pretty good. 35 
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CAL: It still is, yes.  But she cared nothing to find out or do that  just another thing.  Of course, we 37 were never friends.  What says a lot about me is the fact that I was always praying, up to the 38 end, for her to be my friend.  She was the woman I was with for 19 years and Im still looking 39 that she wants to be my friend?  It never happened.  But Ill tell you . . . 40 
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AJ: So you guys dont talk now at all?   42 
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CAL: We never talked when we were married.   44 
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AJ: Wow, for 19 years. 46 
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CAL: In the past . . . what, since we got divorced in 1987, we havent said but a couple paragraphs in 2 all that time.  Her husband is an old neighbor, they were shacking up a year before we got 3 divorced.  But hes still a friend, I talk to him for hours.  But for her, we dont talk, theres 4 nothing really in common.  But that goes back to what I didnt know about being trans.  The 5 young people today, they at least understand it.  I can remember an event back in 1956, I was 6 with the class valedictorian of Holy Angels, an all-girls high school here in town, I was sitting in a 7 brand new 1956 Chev, the hottest car on the road back then, out in the airport parking lot, 8 which was on 34th Avenue  not what everybody knows today.  And, I must have asked myself a 9 couple hundred times that night, Why cannot you kiss her?  And in a book called, True Selves, 10 the answer is, back in those days if youve got a female brain, women didnt make love to 11 women.  Simple answer.  Its sort of how I looked at stuff all through my life.  Its from the other 12 side.  Ive always thought that I had a female brain too, that came to me in high school.   13 
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AJ: There is this phenomenon called lesbianism where women do make love to women.   15 
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CAL: Yes, so when I was having . . . we can put this in there, it doesnt have to be cut, when I was 17 having sex with my wife, I was the woman  not the man.  And that went on all through the 18 marriage. 19 
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AJ: She was aware of this? 21 
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CAL: No.   23 
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AJ: This was in your own . . . ? 25 
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CAL: This was me.  And thats what has kept me alive and I didnt commit suicide or do anything like 27 that.  I could put myself into the position if I saw a picture of a girl . . . if I saw a beautiful girl on 28 the street, it wasnt that I wanted to poke her  I wanted to be her.  But that way, if you can 29 fanaticize that you are the part, it was a relief.  And then when I did come to my wife at that 30 time and attempt to explain it, I had also made query to Tri-Ess to see what that was like. 31 
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AJ: Tri-Ess? 33 
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CAL: Yes. 35 
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AJ: Is that an organization? 37 
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CAL: They have an organization here in town.  Its Society for the Second Self.  I met with them for 39 coffee and to me they looked at dressing up, theyre transvestites, and when I put the clothes 40 on, I am comfortable as can be because Im supposed to be wearing these clothes to begin with.  41 Theres a lady in the building here, shes 87 and a good friend, she says, Well when you walk 42 down the street, how do you feel walking in clothes like that?  I said, Well I get up in the 43 morning, I put them on and I go out.  Thats what Im supposed to be wearing.  Why should I 44 think about it?  Its a feeling that Ive always wanted and could never share and then I did it.  It 45 was something I wish I hadnt put off as long.   46 
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AJ: Did you and your wife have children? 2 
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CAL: We have two children  a son that is going to be 45 in one month, and a daughter that is 40 4 now. 5 
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AJ: Whats your relationship like with your children?   7 
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CAL: I havent seen my daughter for 25+ years.  That was a product of the divorce. 9 
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AJ: So her estrangement then was long before you came out? 11 
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CAL: Oh, very much so.  Her mother shared a lot of stuff with her that was . . .  13 
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AJ: Adult stuff between the two of you guys? 15 
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CAL: Yes.  And that was totally unnecessary.  They slept together for years too because . . . the last 17 five years or something in the house, Id sleep downstairs on the couch.  My son, we get along.  18 We got along a lot better but he changed.  In order to prepare him for my coming out, I sent him 19 some pre-information about transgender on there.  When I sent that to him, that sort of shut 20 him off complete.  What Ive learned later on is that he doesnt like surprises from friends of his.  21 He has two very good, close friends and hes not as close to them the way hes not as close to 22 me.  We all get treated the same, he doesnt share a lot about himself with anybody  me 23 included.  But we still text regularly, we email, and once in a while he stops by and we do coffee.  24 He does a lot of nice stuff. 25 
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AJ: Do you have grandchildren? 27 
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CAL: That will never happen because my two children grew up with the screaming me-mes for 29 parents.  There was an ongoing fight monthly and stuff.  My son understands what was going 30 on, my wife  she had an agenda and that was to get back at her mother.  She was an abused 31 child growing up, her mother used to lock her in a closet, and it was the maid that got her out all 32 the time and took care of her.  The maid was called Mommy Elaina and when I moved down to 33 Columbia with her, my Spanish became really fluent at relatives houses . . .  34 
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AJ: You lived in Columbia? 36 
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CAL: Oh yes, for over four years.   38 
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AJ: Really, which part? 40 
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CAL: Bogota, Columbia.   42 
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AJ: Bogota, Columbia  what did you do there?  What did you guys do there? 44 
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CAL: I met an American, we had . . . our kids went to the same Montessori school, which was right by 1 our house.  He wanted to start a restaurant making pizza.  I said, I can cook anything.  So I 2 made a pizza for him based on Broadway Pizza. 3 
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AJ: Oh wow, some of the best pizza in the country and now you took it all the way around the 5 world.   6 
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CAL: Yes.  I liked it, mine was better.  My father-in-law moved the mother-in-law into a nice high rise 8 apartment house and the old house was empty at the time except for two rental properties 9 under it.  What I did is, I turned the old house into a restaurant for pizza, it was called, La 10 Pianola.  The player piano.  The restaurant came and it started to bring in business, the people 11 loved the pizza, and the partner took the original 50/50 partnership and it was reduced in a 12 matter of weeks down to, You have to earn your way in as business was increasing.  At that 13 point I thought, Its time to revert back to the U.S.  Which I did.  The restaurant died within a 14 matter of a couple of weeks. 15 
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AJ: After you left. 17 
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CAL: They didnt know how to cook the pizza or anything in there.  So at that point, I did leave, we 19 came back here in 1975 and I found out that the one cook that was trained, that I trained how 20 to make the food, she was sought out by a restaurant person a couple blocks away from my 21 place.  She told him, and showed him, how I made my pizza, the ingredients and stuff.  He is a 22 multi-millionaire.  Hes the whatever, Ciceros of Columbia.  So made real money on pizza. 23 
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AJ: The godfather of pizza. 25 
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CAL: The godfather of pizza in Columbia  my pizza but I didnt get a dollar out of it.  Everything was 27 prepared to go on TV, on one of these soap operas and there was a movie . . . there were two 28 people that were going to make movies that would have used the restaurant.  None of that 29 transpired.  But we were back here, I went back to running the movies in the Walker Art Center 30 and stuff.  Over the years Ive taught photography, thats what I studied in Germany back in the 31 1960s, mid-1960s.  We traveled around Europe looking in the museums at other peoples 32 artwork.  33 
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AJ: So youre a photographer? 35 
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CAL: Yes, Ive taught it for a number of years too.  I taught photography, still photography, lab work.  37 Ive taught psychology of motion pictures, Ive taught the technical side of motion pictures.  And 38 I still teach my favorite subject which is steam and thats how to drive a steam locomotive as a 39 classroom course.  Three courses . . . it started out with four people, twelve people, twenty-four 40 people in three different runnings I did one year.  But the same complaint in all of them, theres 41 not enough classroom information that they can carry.  So I have a PowerPoint presentation 42 that will take and fill in the gaps and Ill restart the course again. 43 
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AJ: Where do you teach? 45 
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CAL: Roosevelt is one school that I taught at, but I teach for the Minneapolis Public School system.  I 1 did teach when I worked at the Walker, and there, that was motion pictures.  We taught . . . the 2 guys that made Fargo? 3 
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AJ: Yeah, the Coen brothers. 5 
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CAL: The Coen brothers, they were students at that time, at the Walker, for the course that we ran.   7 
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AJ: Oh my goodness.  So you taught the Coen brothers? 9 
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CAL: Yes, I was one of the people.  During that class session, we ran it for three years, I was picked 11 best teacher all three years.  What they did for was, for me, it was kind of ironic, we usually ran 12 about 200-some kids in there, 225, and whenever a teacher gave a lecture and stuff and they 13 had a Q&A, the kids would partially leave, only a few would say, the teachers would leave.  14 When I gave a class, none of the students left, the teachers left, I gave my lecture, the Q&A 15 started, and it was constant questions.  The teachers would come in screaming, The busses are 16 here, we have to leave now. They didnt want to leave.  We had a good thing going and I 17 enjoyed it.  Its the one thing, whatever I teach its something that I really enjoy and it comes 18 across. 19 
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AJ: I am really interested in your . . . you said you went to the VA, so that means you were in the 21 military.   22 
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CAL: Yes, maam.   24 
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AJ: Tell me about your service of this country, and thank you for your service to this country. 26 
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CAL: Youre welcome.  It was interesting because I didnt have any money at the time, So, Ill go in 28 the Air Force.  I went in, they put me in electronics, I have a problem with that in the fact that 29 when I get on to a problem and I cant figure it out, I dont go out for help and it bugs me  it 30 kind of causes a depression.  So, down there, I went to school in Biloxi, Mississippi. 31 
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AJ: Biloxi, Mississippi, right on the Gulf. 33 
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CAL: Yes.  And I failed the course  twice, it means youre out of the school.   35 
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AJ: Oh wow. 37 
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CAL: And when I met the board for the second time, the captain on the board . . . captain or major, 39 was my squadron commander.  I explained to him it was just something I couldnt do.  The next 40 day I was called into his office back at the building and he told me, he said, I know you know 41 the subject because weve seen you put so many of our students through the school, Im not 42 going to ask you why you failed it but I wish you luck in your new profession.  So as punishment 43 they put you into the medics, I was put in a class of food inspectors, I came out of 45 people in 44 the class in the top four, I got to pick the air base that I wanted to go to, and on the base the 45 sergeant there was constantly after me to study for tests after six months.  I told him, I said, Its 46 taken care of.  I passed it with the highest score in the Air Force, thats one job I did know but I 1 wasnt smart enough to keep doing it after I got out.  I could have retired at 55 with a big salary, 2 but I wouldnt be here probably.  But I enjoyed . . . what I did in my life, I enjoyed all of the 3 things.   4 
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AJ: So you were aware of your gender identity while you were in the military. 6 
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CAL: Oh yes.   8 
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AJ: How did you deal with it? 10 
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CAL: Surreptitiously.  I had a room . . . we had adapted two rooms in the office as bedrooms for the 12 two of us that worked in the office.  It was actually an abandoned old hospital from World War 13 II.  The new hospital was across the street in brick and mortar whereas this one was wood from 14 the time.  And in there, you could walk around for blocks, literally.  Id get dressed up and just 15 walk around in there.  There was no one that could come through if they were out doing their 16 thing. 17 
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AJ: So you had a stash of clothes . . . 19 
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CAL: I had a stash of clothes then and everything.  Youre very creative when youre a trans person. 21 
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AJ: This is true. 23 
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CAL: I didnt mix that much with . . . actually with kids when I was growing up or with guys in the Air 25 Force.  They would go out to drink and I met more wives with black eyes, running into 26 doorknobs, of course.   27 
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AJ: Running into what? 29 
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CAL: Doorknobs. 31 
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AJ: I dont quite understand. 33 
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CAL: The theory is that if theyre running on the floor they hit their eye into the doorknob, thats why 35 its black.   36 
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AJ: So you met more wives with black eyes, you said? 38 
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CAL: Black eyes, not with the color eyes, with black eyes. 40 
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AJ: OK. 42 
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CAL: And I thought, That is the lamest excuse I have ever heard.   44 
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AJ: Wow.  So there was a lot of domestic violence happening? 46 
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CAL: Domestic violence and drinking and I thought, I dont want to do that.  This whole 2 neighborhood over here is Polish and Ukrainian.  They drink.  Theyll drink most everybody else 3 under the table, theyre the only people I will drink with.  The Ukies were all college people in 4 there and we get into philosophical discussions, even after theyd lock the doors wed still be 5 there.  Wed leave at 2 or better.  Its just . . . and when I went to Europe, I never drank beer in 6 the service either.  We went to Europe, or I did, and my friends in Europe were all Ukrainian at 7 that time too.  So one night I get over there, Im living in the girls dorm and Iggy comes over and 8 he says, Youre drinking beer tonight because youre in Germany.  And from that night on, he 9 gave me the best beer and I was turned on.   10 
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AJ: So you like beer? 12 
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CAL: I like strong dark beers, yes.  Champagne is my preferred choice, but Id drink hard liquor years 14 ago just with friends but it was never a favorite. 15 
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AJ: So since youve been out, Chloe Alexa, what have been some of the challenges that youve faced 17 in your life as a transgender person  a transgender woman? 18 
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CAL: Actually, life has been very good in the fact that Im not hiding what I look like or anything from 20 anybody.  Im pretty well accepted on the busses or train.  I get into some good discussions and 21 we had a real great one one night coming here on the bus.  People didnt know anything about 22 it, they were talking about it on the bus, and I said, Ill give you an answer.   23 
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AJ: So they were just having a conversation about transgender people and you chimed in? 25 
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CAL: I said, Excuse me but Ill give you the answer.   27 
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AJ: Were they being respectful, were they . . .? 29 
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CAL: Oh very.  The only people that are not respectful are people that are not very educated  31 ignorant would be the word for it.  Other than that, weve had some great conversations.  Why 32 wouldnt they be great? 33 
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AJ: So you live in a senior high rise now? 35 
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CAL: Senior high rise now. 37 
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AJ: How is that?   39 
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CAL: Its been very interesting here.  Only two problems in the building  the first one was moving in, 41 there was a guy and he kept looking at my breasts  they really attracted him.  And he would 42 make comments.  Well, he made the fourth comment.  I stopped, turned, came back and told 43 him succinctly, If you say one more word, ever, about my breasts, were going to go see the 44 manager and youll be gone.  And that was at 9am and at 5 that night he met me at the mailbox 45 and apologized.  The other one is a lady in here from a race that demands respect.  She calls me 46 an it and last Sunday she started doing it numerous times to people on an elevator that she was 1 riding on, you could hear here again with the it word.  The manager knows about it and theyre 2 dealing with it. 3 
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AJ: Why was she referring to you in the first place?   5 
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CAL: Thats a very good question but what it comes down to is what she said on that Sunday, it has to 7 do with many of the Black people in the building are very religious, very Christian.  Most 8 Christians follow what the Catholic Church states and the Catholic Church got information from 9 a man, a psychologist retired from Johns Hopkins University, his name was Paul McHugh. 10 
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AJ: Paul McHugh? 12 
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CAL: McHugh, yeah.  M-c-H-u-g-h.   14 
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AJ: OK. 16 
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CAL: He hates trans people.  He worked with John Money, who really altered the intersex people 18 causing a friend of mine a very long life in the wrong gender.  In doing the thing that he did, he 19 told the last Pope that we dont need any medical medication for altering our bodies, like 20 hormones, and we definitely dont need surgery.  His peers rebuke him for that because its 21 1970 thinking, which has no place in this century.   22 
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AJ: Absolutely. 24 
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CAL: He has gone through a lot of stuff that way, anything he says  which the Wall Street Journal 26 wrote an article, its all a bunch of 1970 stuff, not honest. 27 
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AJ: So speaking of hormones.  To the extent that you are comfortable, tell me about any medical 29 interventions you have had.  Hormones?  Surgery?   30 
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CAL: Hormones.  You know what happens when we get hormones.  Starting in grade school I had 32 pronounced breasts already.   33 
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AJ: Really? 35 
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CAL: Yes.  In high school, if the team . . . when they played shirts and skins, that scared the heck out 37 of me because if they were to have called me for skins I would have died right on the spot.  38 Because once in a while when youre in the shower the guys would make mention or something 39 like that, and it was embarrassing to me.  But in the Air Force, either youre in first and out first 40 or last in and out last.  I watch it, but four years ago when I was at the VA, we have an 41 endocrinologist thats one of the worlds leading people in that  she and her husband, a Greek 42 lady, and she started the program there and they asked, Do you want to be part of that?  And 43 I said, Definitely.  Because another doctor had told me, prior to the colon surgery, that the 44 prostate can be handled with a shot of estrogen.  Estrogen gives you boobs, it also controls the 45 prostate.  Thats now known because from the prostate group, they in turn have been giving me 46 a shot in the left hip, six months later in the right hip for two years . . . three years.  The last time 1 we had a visit we held off on the shot to see if the estrogen held it in place because theres no 2 testosterone in me at all anymore   strictly estrogen.  It does hold the prostate in the perfect 3 place for it so were letting it go, no more shots.  Three years-plus on hormones.   4 
 5 
AJ: All right. 6 
 7 
CAL: You keep moving the patch around.   8 
 9 
AJ: Oh so you use a transdermal estradiol.   10 
 11 
CAL: Yes, estradiol. 12 
 13 
AJ: Wonderful.  Whats the effects like for you?  Are there any emotional effects?  Have the physical 14 effects been the way you hoped them to be?   15 
 16 
CAL: Ive cried since I was a little kid, like telling you about that movie.  I really can cry now a lot 17 easier.   18 
 19 
AJ: So theres a lot of emotional stuff? 20 
 21 
CAL: Thats much easier now.  I dont know what else, but when youre a trans person growing up 22 and youve got the wrong brain for the body youre in, youre very aware of when you drink my 23 little finger is always up and I have to remember that because every once in a while, Hey, why 24 do you hold your little finger that way?  I dont know why but I do that.  I walk like that quite a 25 bit and I always held back on that.  Theres a lot of things youre aware of that you do not want 26 to do feminine things because it gives yourself away to other people.  Now, I dont have to think 27 about it anymore  finally. 28 
 29 
AJ: Finally.  Has there been a specific moment or a specific person that had an impact on your 30 decision to live your life openly? 31 
 32 
CAL: Yes. 33 
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AJ: Who? 35 
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CAL: Sonya.  Sonya was a lady that I met at the VA with the group.  The first meeting I went to, she 37 was young  she was only 28 or 29 at the time, and she dressed very well, her presence was very 38 good, and I asked her for tea after the meeting.  And from that day on, shes out in Vermont 39 now, and we still talk.  She impressed me that if she can come out, I can come out too.  She was 40 more than helpful  not only to me but to a number of other people in the group.  That was 41 something, because that was the first time I met people like me, was going to the meeting that 42 day.  Were all the same  were different but yet same stories match in certain ways.   43 
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AJ: Thats very true. 45 
 46 
CAL: It was freeing, actually, is what it was, for the first time to meet people that were exactly like 1 you. 2 
 3 
AJ: So theres a big group at the VA?  How many people would you say? 4 
 5 
CAL: We have 19 altogether.  The lady leading it knew nothing about it and she shouldnt have been 6 there.  Of the 19 people in the group, only three graduated from the group and they were her 7 favorites.  But the rest of us were blatantly kicked out.  I called her on it because we came up 8 and at the end she kicked one of the people out of the group . . .    9 
 10 
AJ: So was it only a transgender group or was it an LGBT group? 11 
 12 
CAL: No, it was strictly transgender.  It said on the thing, Transgender Support Group, but after she 13 kicked a person out, I got on the internet and I found out what a group really was consisted of 14 and that it was a therapy group and not a support group.  So I called her on it, I got kicked out, 15 other friends got kicked out for other reasons.  But they were not a legitimate reason for a 16 support group, for their group  yes, she can kick us out.  But it never was a support group. 17 
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AJ: So you dont go to the VA for those . . . 19 
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CAL: No, we only did that for not even a full year because we were all gone by the end of the year. 21 
 22 
AJ: But you still get your medical . . .? 23 
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CAL: Oh yes.  I hurt myself when I was in the service, so I am service connected. 25 
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AJ: And the service, how do the doctors treat you there?  Nurses and . . .? 27 
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CAL: My doctor, she is great.  I am the first trans person she has ever met, we go through the medical 29 stuff fairly quick, then we talk about clothes and other things. 30 
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AJ: So shes become a friend? 32 
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CAL: Shes become a very good friend.  And all of the staff in the clinic that I go to, they really watch 34 over me there.  Walk in the door, Hi Chloe.  Everybody will come and say that.  People look, 35 but its just . . . its myself and another friend, hes intersexed  he comes in there.  Both of us 36 are treated really special because were friendly with everybody. 37 
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AJ: Yes, that goes a long way.  That goes a very long way.  Lets talk a little bit about relationships 39 and love.  Are you in a relationship right now?  40 
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CAL: No.  The relationships . . . Ill go back to the beginning, the first one.  Being that Im trans and 42 have a female brain, having relationships was kind of difficult through high school.  I was friendly 43 with all women, Im very comfortable with women.  There was a lady here, she was going to 44 marry a classmates uncle, 20 years older than she is.  We were at a party one night and I never 45 had anybody play footsie with me under the table.  She did and she came over to my lab at the 46 time, where I had one side that I lived in and the other side I had the business.  She said, Come 1 on, were going to do it.  And we did.  Now if I were to ask a person when, in your life, is the 2 happiest moment and where is the saddest moment and did they ever transpire at the same 3 time  yes!   4 
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AJ: So it was the happiest moment for you and the saddest moment. 6 
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CAL: The happiest and the saddest, because . . . 8 
 9 
AJ: What made it sad? 10 
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CAL: To feel what its like to be in a woman is the happiest, the saddest is that Ill never experience 12 that.  And that was all in one moment.   13 
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AJ: Wow. 15 
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CAL: Other than that, Id meet girls and I got married because she was foreign and she wanted to 17 marry me  what the heck?  What she really did on there was, again, with my brain not wanting 18 to rock the boat in any relationship, I always acquiesced to whatever their desires were.  Over 19 here on Central Avenue where it meets Hennepin and 5th Street NE, we were turning the corner 20 from Central Avenue onto 5th Street and in the turn she was saying, I think well go home to 21 Bogota for Christmas, well get engaged, and then well go back and get married in March.  My 22 answer was OK, and I kept driving down the street.  So it was not a big deal but that was the 23 start.  We were married 19 years.  After the divorce, I thought, Will I ever have a relationship 24 again?  Oh yes  every weekend.  Friends used to joke, Youre never alone on weekends, are 25 you?  No.   26 
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AJ: Were these women or men? 28 
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CAL: Oh, with women.  I am really a lesbian, no way the other way.  I have friends that they do like 30 guys, thats not my style.  Ive always loved women.  The fun part is pleasing them.  And Ive got 31 lesbian girlfriends, we grew up together  shes the same age I am and she has a partner out in 32 California.   33 
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AJ: Do you consider yourself a part of the LGBT community?  Do you have friends who are gay and 35 lesbian and bisexual? 36 
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CAL: Very much so.  Even before they knew I was a part of the group, I was a part of the group 38 because most of the people around town that repair pipe organs, theyre gay or many gay 39 friends.  Yeah, the first time I was with a group, we were down at the IDS top floor restaurant 40 and sitting at the bar waiting for a table.  There must have been about 12 of us there that night, 41 and a guy came up and sat next to me and put his hand on my knee and said . . . I cant 42 remember what he said, but I didnt touch him or anything.  I looked at him and said, You 43 know, thats not my choice but I really appreciate the compliment. And he excused himself.  It 44 was very nice.  All I ever heard about guys doing that was when you were in the Air Force, if I 45 met a gay guy like that hed beat the crap out of me.  I dont know why people would want to do 46 that but they did.  My best buddy, Todd, that I met on the steps of kindergarten, I didnt know 1 he was gay until I was 30 years old.  It didnt matter to me if people were different.  My high 2 school friends, I would say most of them were gay and never knowing it, never asked.  They 3 dyed their hair pink for certain stuff and green for Irish day.  I just thought thats kind of neat  I 4 still do.  And theres a group in town, the organ people, one of the guys in there I still kid him all 5 the time, When are you going to start dying your hair again?  But the theatre up the street 6 here is owned by a gay gentleman and Tom and I have been friends for 40-some years.   7 
 8 
AJ: Is that right?  OK. 9 
 10 
CAL: And when you go up there, its a lot of gay people. 11 
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AJ: So you have a deep connection to the gay, queer community? 13 
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CAL: Oh very much so, its been that way since my twenties  or high school actually.   15 
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AJ: What do you think the relationship is between the L, the G, the B, and then the T?  Does it really 17 fit? 18 
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CAL: There are separations amongst all of them, but I think we all belong together because . . . OK, 20 myself, Im a lesbian trans woman so Im still part of the group.  The T part and the L part.  21 Hopefully someday Im going to find a partner in there so that Chloe can share her life with 22 somebody else that appreciates Chloe.   23 
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AJ: I hope that for you too, Chloe.  Do you think theres an agenda for the transgender community?  25 You tell me that youve done a lot of reading and researching and writing on the internet, what 26 do you think the agenda is for the transgender community? 27 
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CAL: Im really wondering myself because what I would like to see and what Ms. Jenner didnt . . . in 29 any of her things did she tell people about our brain and how we became trans? 30 
 31 
AJ: Caitlin Jenner? 32 
 33 
CAL: Caitlin, yes.   34 
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AJ: I dont think she did, I didnt see any of that kind of information.   36 
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CAL: Thats the thing.  Whenever I talk to people I ask them how do you think we became 38 transgender.  Most people dont have an answer for it outside of choice.  Unfortunately, the 39 Christian group, its a forbidden thing by their religion, therefore its got to be bad and so forth. 40 
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AJ: What do you think the answer is?   42 
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CAL: Hey, its a birth anomaly.  Were born that way, it happened with hormones in the mothers 44 womb, its just something that happens  just like heart difficulties, blindness, deafness, 45 whatever  cleft palette.  I always compare it with that when I reply.  Its just I would like to see 46 people come out and explain that and Im dealing with one church that I occasionally go to.  I 1 dont go much now because I dont have transportation over there.   2 
 3 
AJ: Which church? 4 
 5 
CAL: Its Unity, its about by Courage Center.   6 
 7 
AJ: Oh yeah, Ive been there. 8 
 9 
CAL: Very nice.  The minister there is gay, his partner is there too, very nice people.  I voted for him 10 when it came time to choose him.   11 
 12 
AJ: Oh wow. 13 
 14 
CAL: And theres a lot of gay . . . the lady that plays the piano, Lori, shes definitely there. 15 
 16 
AJ: Lori Dokken? 17 
 18 
CAL: Yes.  And a number of other women are.  So, hey we all feel comfortable there  who cares?  19 
 20 
AJ: Yes, Ive gone there.  Its a comfortable feeling. 21 
 22 
CAL: Yes, it is  very. 23 
 24 
AJ: Have you ever worked or volunteered for any LGBT organizations? 25 
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CAL: Yes.  I go over to the capital when they need people. 27 
 28 
AJ: Oh, with OutFront Minnesota?   29 
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CAL: Yes, youve got to meet your senator and stuff  yes. 31 
 32 
AJ: So lobby day. 33 
 34 
CAL: Oh yes.  Im there. 35 
 36 
AJ: So you were a part of the marriage equality movement? 37 
 38 
CAL: Yes, I was there and a bunch of other friends I met there too.  39 
 40 
AJ: So there is some political activism in your life? 41 
 42 
CAL: Oh yes.  The idea is to be me as me because people will see what we are.  They know were 43 different, if theyve got a question Ill answer it just like Ill answer yours. 44 
 45 
AJ: So visibility is an important thing for you? 46 
 1 
CAL: Very important, yes.  Thats the one thing . . . now, being that theres more of us out, and Bruce 2 Jenner becoming Caitlyn, more people are aware of it.  Some have questions, a lot are afraid to 3 ask.   4 
 5 
AJ: Do you think Caitlin is a good thing for the community?  Coming out was a good thing? 6 
 7 
CAL: I think its a good thing, yes.  Its brought more to the front so . . . the women of color make the 8 biggest dent to me.  The two ladies on there, well actually theres more than two  theres about 9 four that Im really familiar with.  Caitlin really did it because shes white and shes got a name 10 and history.   11 
 12 
AJ: You mentioned women of color and Im not sure if youre aware of this but so far in 2015, 21 13 transgender women of color, almost all of them Black . . .  14 
 15 
CAL: Theres more. 16 
 17 
AJ: Theres more, youre probably absolutely right.  Why is this happening?  What do you think 18 about this?  How do you feel about it?   19 
 20 
CAL: If you look . . . I just wrote one this morning, a reply, in the fact that in three countries . . . you 21 have Christians, the two most Christian countries in the world are Brazil, Mexico, and the United 22 States.  If you take Brazil, theyve killed over 95 trans women this year, so far.   23 
 24 
AJ: Oh my God. 25 
 26 
CAL: If you get to Mexico, theyve killed over 55 trans women this year.  Weve killed something like 27 27 in the U.S.  Its the macho man person, they feel theyre doing a service by getting rid of us.  28 To me, the more people know that we were born this way, it was not a choice  although it 29 would be a good one, because its really nice.  When you really feel yourself, you feel the beauty 30 of it.   31 
 32 
AJ: So you think its religion and . . . patriarchy? 33 
 34 
CAL: Its religion that gets . . .  35 
 36 
AJ: Patriarchy, transphobia.   37 
 38 
CAL: Right.  And why its there is strictly because of ignorance.  Ive called the Pope a killer, the 39 present one, because he is killing people because of that.   40 
 41 
AJ: Because of not accepting . . .  42 
 43 
CAL: Not accepting us because of religious grounds.  And the religion does everything to hide that its 44 not a choice or stuff in there.  But I think the more people get to know us and talk about us . . . it 45 went from . . . what was it?  A very small number of people knew a trans person compared with 1 a gay and now the trans group is rising, more people know us. 2 
 3 
AJ: We are very much becoming much more visible.   4 
 5 
CAL: Hopefully  yes. 6 
 7 
AJ: And very recently too.   8 
 9 
CAL: Yes. 10 
 11 
AJ: Its been very recent, but very high profile.  Laverne Cox, Janet Mock, all of these famous people 12 who are out there in the world. 13 
 14 
CAL: Candace Cain, which people . . . she came and people forgot about her.   15 
 16 
AJ: Yeah, shes been around for quite a while but now that shes dating Caitlin Jenner, I think people 17 know a little bit about her now.  Theyre dating, you know? 18 
 19 
CAL: Oh, theyd make a cute couple.   20 
 21 
AJ: Well, I am just thrilled with this conversation, Chloe.  I guess, one last thing.  Has your gender 22 identity had an impact on your professional life at all? 23 
 24 
CAL: Not really. 25 
 26 
AJ: You didnt really come out until you were retired. 27 
 28 
CAL: Right.  Most of my friends that I deal with and stuff, they accept it.  Some have a hard time with 29 the name because theyve known me for 50-some years as another person. 30 
 31 
AJ: Right, exactly.  Which is understandable. 32 
 33 
CAL: Yes.  When I say its Chloe calling, they know who it is.  Other friends?  They flipped immediately 34 to Chloe.  A kid that I grew up with, our fathers grew up together and we grew up together, he 35 calls me Chloe.  A girlfriend that lived across the alley, she lives in Miami, she calls me CA.   36 
 37 
AJ: I can work with that.   38 
 39 
CAL: Me too.  Its kind of interesting, I like the nicknames theyre coming up with.   40 
 41 
AJ: Is there anything else you think that I didnt ask you about that you want to talk about?   42 
 43 
CAL: I dont know.  If you come up with some new questions, Im open.  All I know is that the journey 44 was hidden for too long and once you finally come out, its just . . . Im relaxed.  And moving into 45 this building, Ive really become relaxed with it.  Ive got other friends that are going through 46 different stages, theyre coming out and being themselves, Im there for anybody to give them a 1 hand with it.  I know a few people in the group, theyre kind of one-sided because . . . the one 2 thing I dont like to see is when people transition, some of us will go for the full surgery . . . the 3 name should be gender confirmation surgery and not sex reassignment.  But gender 4 confirmation is really nailing it right down to what it should be.   5 
 6 
AJ: Absolutely. 7 
 8 
CAL: And theres a bunch of us that, for many reasons, if I were to put a bikini on, wed have . . . we 9 could paint a road map with all the surgeries.  I thought, God I see some of these beautiful 10 women out there, they can do it and they look great.  Me, its all . . . about six or seven surgeries 11 in there.  But it just . . . its really relaxed to be yourself after all of that time.  I wouldnt trade it.  12 I wish I would have come out earlier and now Im really . . . Jazz is the best thing thats ever 13 happened to the young kids.   14 
 15 
AJ: So Jazz, tell me a little bit . . . some of the people watching this may not know who Jazz is.   16 
 17 
CAL: Jazz, when you look back in history, was a young girl that came out when she was about two 18 years old to her family and told them she was a girl, not a boy.  Now she has a TV program, shes 19 14-years-old, and she is doing a great . . . 20 
 21 
AJ: I think she was on Oprah when she was eight. 22 
 23 
CAL: Yes, she was on . . . whats that other lady  the older woman on CBS or something?  24 
 25 
AJ: Sally Jessie . . .  26 
 27 
CAL: Not Sally, but . . . a famous woman for interviewing people. 28 
 29 
AJ: Barbara Walters. 30 
 31 
CAL: Barbara Walters  yes, even younger there.  And Oprah  she was very good, shes a good 32 speaker when she comes out.  Nicole Maines is one from Maine, she won a $75,000 suit against 33 the Maine School Board because she was not allowed to go in the correct bathroom. 34 
 35 
AJ: Whats her name?   36 
 37 
CAL: I think its . . . theres Coy Mathis and a girl named Maines.  I cant remember her name, she is 38 going to be on a TV program coming . . . or its past already.  But her father stood behind her 39 and when they went to court, on the east coast, the lawyers stood behind her, the psychologist 40 stood behind, and state people stood behind her, doctors stood behind her.  They sued the 41 school and they won.  Theres another one in Colorado, I think that could have been Coy.  She, in 42 turn, they sued the school down there and they won also.  Its for use of the correct bathroom.  43 And now theres a senator in Wisconsin that wants to cut that off again.  And theres even one 44 here in Minnesota that wants to pull our rights to go into the bathroom.  It wont stop me, Ill 45 still go. 46 
 1 
AJ: Yeah, its kind of a human thing that everybody has got to do. 2 
 3 
CAL: We all have to go and I have been going for four years and I will never go back the other way.  4 Its been an interesting morning.   5 
 6 
AJ: There you go.  Well, Chloe Alexa, thank you so much for this wonderful conversation.  You are 7 delightful, you are beautiful, I love the sparkle in your eye  its really quite something.  You 8 seem very happy.   9 
 10 
CAL: Yes I am, for the first real time in my life, to be me.   11 
 12 
AJ: Thank you. 13 
 14 
CAL: Youre welcome. 15 
 16 

