 
 
 
 
Karl Meyer Narrator   Andrea Jenkins Interviewer 
 
 
 
 
 
The Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies University of Minnesota 
October 5, 2015 
 
 
 
  

  
 
The Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story, while providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source material about the transgender community.  The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for current and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public. 
The Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300 individuals over the next three years.  Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and experiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality.  This project will be led by Andrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist.  Andrea brings years of experience working in government, non-profits and LGBT organizations.  If you are interested in being involved in this exciting project, please contact Andrea. 
Andrea Jenkins jenki120@umn.edu (612) 625-4379 
 
 
 
 
  
Andrea Jenkins -AJ 1 
Karl Meyer -KM 2 
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AJ:  Hello, my name is Andrea Jenkins and I am the oral historian at the Tretter Collection at the 5 University of Minnesota Libraries.  I am here today on October 5, 2015, with Karl Meyer.  And so 6 Karl, I am going to ask you if you would introduce yourself, spell your name please, tell us what 7 are your preferred gender pronouns, and whats your gender identity now and your gender 8 assigned at birth. 9 
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KM: My name is Karl Meyer, K-a-r-l M-e-y-e-r.  My preferred gender pronouns are he, his, him.  My 11 gender assigned at birth is male.   12 
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AJ: And how do you identify now? 14 
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KM: I identify . . . well, Ive read the literature about the AGP transgenders.  I identify with that a lot. 16 
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AJ: What is AGP transgender? 18 
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KM: Autogynephiliac. 20 
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AJ: Oh, wow.  OK.  Talk to me about that.  Not too many people identify with that.  I know its been 22 a very controversial term in the trans community.  Can you give us a little background about 23 that?  24 
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KM: Yes, yes.  The AGP, autogynephilia stands for . . . auto means self, gyne means the female sex 26 organ, philiac  the love of and so AGP transgenders, I have read, are three in 100 of all male 27 births.  Boys who get excited sexually by imagining themselves as girls.   28 
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AJ: Oh, wow. 30 
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KM: That has been practically been my exclusive means of masturbation is to find womens 32 underwear or a leotard or something and to tuck my manhood between my legs, pretend, and 33 stimulate that and my nipples.  That always gets me off. 34 
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AJ: OK, all right.  So autogynephiliac transgender is how you identify? 36 
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KM: Yeah, except that I havent let the association between pleasure and being female drive me to 38 transition to female as so many. 39 
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AJ: Why not? 41 
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KM: Well, I feel that I would lose sexual pleasure if I did that, the orgasm is based in my male 43 genitalia.   44 
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AJ: Where were you born, Karl? 46 
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KM: Chicago, Illinois.   2 
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AJ: Is that where you grew up? 4 
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KM: No, I spent years 0-2 and 4-5 there.  My father was a surgeon at Rush Presbyterian Hospital and 6 then he was drafted into the Air Force where we spent the intervening years at Tucson, Arizona, 7 the Davis Monthan Air Base.   8 
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AJ: OK, so you kind of grew up all around then? 10 
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KM: Mostly I grew up in Faribault.  I spent . ..  12 
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AJ: Minnesota? 14 
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KM: Right.  I spent grades 1-12 there.   16 
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AJ: Did you ever experience any bullying growing up at all? 18 
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KM: Not for being feminine or gay or trans.  I was bullied for being a rich mans son.   20 
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AJ: Oh wow, so your parents are wealthy? 22 
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KM: Well, my father was a surgeon  that puts him in a special class, I think. 24 
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AJ: I think it does.  Its the upper class of our culture and society.   26 
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KM: Yeah, yeah.  We owned, as I was growing up, half of an airplane, a Beechcraft Bonanza.  And so 28 we would take airplane vacations and then after my father divorced and remarried, he owned 29 his own plane, a King Baron. 30 
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AJ: Where would you guys go on vacation?  Like what kind of places? 32 
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KM: Vail, Aspen.   34 
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AJ: Oh wow.  Skiing.  So you grew up pretty privileged. 36 
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KM: Yeah. 38 
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AJ: Able to go on nice vacations and that kind of thing.  How do you think that impacted your 40 gender identity at all? 41 
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KM: Well, being privileged didnt really impact my gender identity.  It was the attitudes of my parents 43 that impacted my gender identity.  My father is German-English, his father was German, so 44 theres a strong Germanic influence which is rather cold toward the male and male relations.  45 My sisters would get kisses and hugs good night, and I would get a handshake.  I noticed that my 46 
sisters could talk my dad into anything that they wanted, whereas my father plied me with a 1 very distressing and disturbing and destructive suggestion which was in order to get a college 2 degree, and in order to get enough money to pursue a career as a singer or an actor, I had to get 3 a college degree in a field other than music or drama.  So, he was trying to separate what I was 4 doing on a daily basis with my eventual goal, some 12 years out . . . he started doing this when I 5 was nine years old, in 4th grade, which coincidentally was when I first started masturbating.   6 
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AJ: So is that the time that you first recognized that you felt different from your gender assigned at 8 birth?   9 
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KM: Pretty much, yeah. 11 
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AJ: Fourth grade? 13 
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KM: Yeah.   15 
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AJ: So you were about 10 or 11 years old?   17 
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KM: About nine.  Nine-and-a half or ten.   19 
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AJ: So how did you describe yourself then and today you say you use the description 21 autogynephiliac transgender person, but how did you identify then and has that changed over 22 time?  Have you had different identities throughout time, Karl? 23 
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KM: Different identities? 25 
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AJ: Different ways of seeing yourself actually, or describing yourself to other people, I guess. 27 
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KM: Well thats the thing, I had three younger sisters and my father was absent much of the time, 29 having his own family practice with his brother and his father.  So my nuclear family was 30 dominated by females, the younger sisters and my mother.  And, when I would play with my 31 sisters, especially dancing with my sisters was something I enjoyed, I would see their faces and 32 forms and that was my feedback about who I was.  It was only when I looked in the mirror that I 33 would get the shock that I wasnt like them in some ways.   34 
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AJ: No, I personally experienced that myself.  So today how do you describe yourself? 36 
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KM: I describe myself as being . . . what did I say before?  You asked me . . .  38 
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AJ: Autogynephiliac . . .  40 
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KM: I havent transitioned so can I really lay claim to the transgender portion?  I am a gendered role 42 non-conforming individual. 43 
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AJ: I got it.  OK, gender non-conforming. 45 
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KM: I have decided to take from the female catalog of style, those styles which I enjoy wearing  1 leggings, high-heeled boots.  I even own a sports bra, but its so tight.  I bought it from Victoria 2 Secret online and its difficult to remove once I wear it.  I like to play that way.  3 
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AJ: What have been some of the challenges that you have dealt with because of your gender 5 identity?  Have you had any? 6 
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KM: Yes, yes.  The saddest moment in my life, again . . . I can name the date, March 2, 1965, 8 watching a panel discussion featuring male to female transsexuals on Channel 2 when my 9 parents ripped into these individuals as being indecent, inhuman, disgusting.  And I thought they 10 would hate me too if they knew how I felt.  And that was shocking to me that they could be just 11 so . . . I dont know, just cruel, cold.   12 
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AJ: Wow, that is a pretty tough day.  So what kind of challenges then?  You remember sort of 14 hearing about it, and you must have been pretty young at that point. 15 
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KM: Again, nine years old  in 4th grade.  This is just about the time when I engaged in my 17 investigation of the evidence that God endows me with an inalienable right to liberty from 18 school attendance, because the very next day, unlike every other day when I came home from 19 school, the door to my home was unlocked so I could go in  every other day it was locked.  I 20 was joined shortly by my classmate, David Swanson, who confessed to me that he was 21 homosexual.  Because my mother had asked me if I were homosexual that previous night 22 following the panel discussion with the transsexuals, I suspected that he was being used to 23 sound me out where my parents had already destroyed my trust with their anger.   24 
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AJ: Anger, cruelty.   26 
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KM: Cruelty.  Misunderstanding, I guess you could call it.   28 
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AJ: Sure. 30 
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KM: So anyway, that involved me doing most of the talking.  I made the mistake, I should have 32 sounded David out and said, Really, youre homosexual?  I didnt feel homosexual at the time, 33 I wasnt attracted to boys.  Im an AGP transgender and we, as a group, are attracted to females 34  to the gynophilic aspect, although we also can be attracted to men insofar as it makes us feel 35 like females ourselves.  I remember my first sexual experience with a male, and it was very next 36 day after my first sexual experience with a female . . .  37 
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AJ: Wow, thats pretty lucky. 39 
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KM: In college, yeah.   41 
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AJ: So you hooked up with a woman for the first time on one day and then the very next day you 43 hooked up and had a sexual encounter with a male.  44 
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KM: Thats correct. 46 
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AJ: Wow.   2 
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KM: And I have to tell you that, although I played the female role and was receptive, anal sex, that it 4 was gratifying to me to feel like a woman, to be . . .  5 
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AJ: Penetrated. 7 
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KM: Penetrated, yeah. 9 
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AJ: Made love to. 11 
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KM: Yeah.  Although I didnt have the orgasm that I had in my masturbations or with Johanna, who 13 was my first lover.   14 
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AJ: But it was gratifying though? 16 
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KM: Yes, yes.  It was kind of strange because my German background, I felt starved for male 18 attention, and so I had a boyfriend at the time, his name was Tom Palo.  He was an Italian boy, 19 he had a very rough beard, but he wanted more from me than just kissing and so he sent me to 20 his friend, Mohan Khoury, who was the individual who inducted me into anal sex.  He was the 21 son of the prime minister of Sri Lanka, and had had tea with the Queen of England due to his 22 diplomatic post.  Because Sri Lan, as it was also called, had once been a British colony.  Anyway, 23 Mohan . . . 24 
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AJ: Mohan was the person you had sex with right after Johanna, the first time? 26 
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KM: Yes.  Mohan was so fine.  Oh, so smooth and so sensual and so understanding.  And also, such a 28 different perspective than Tom had.  Tom viewed me as many Americans . . . as Mohan put it, he 29 didnt understand the terrible hatred Americans have of homosexuals or the desire of American 30 homosexuals to marry because in Sri Lanka or Sri Lan, sex between boys is common and 31 accepted because the girls are kept segregated by their fathers, and their parents, until a 32 suitable suitor, someone who has demonstrated sufficient standing in the world, comes along to 33 court them so theyre protected and sheltered.  So his position was that it was fun and, as I later 34 found out, similar is good, almost as good, as heterosexual coitus.  At least it gets me off.   35 
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AJ: Its not bad, I would say. 37 
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KM: So there wasnt any of the pressure, or the jealousy, that Tom would have had.  I never went 39 back to Tom.  So he sent me away and his bet was lost.   40 
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AJ: So Tom wanted to be your lover, he wanted to be the main person. 42 
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KM: My main squeeze  yeah.   44 
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AJ: But he opened up this door and let you fly away. 46 
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KM: Yeah.  But he never did stalk me or bother me, he never talked to me again.  I feel like he was 2 very understanding, and a true gentleman about what had happened and courteous and 3 respectful of my needs  above his own, perhaps.   4 
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AJ: Im glad to hear that.  Hey listen, tell me what is your relationship with your family now?  Do you 6 communicate with your sisters or your parents or how is that going? 7 
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KM: Well they did include me in a couple of emails I opened today.  My sister, Nancy, went to 9 Watertown where my mother grew up and visited her church and the cemetery where our 10 uncle, her brother, is buried and her parents.   11 
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AJ: Watertown, is that in Minnesota? 13 
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KM: Minnesota, yes.  Probably dozens of Watertowns across the United States. 15 
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AJ: I think there are lots of them, yes.  17 
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KM: Nancy is probably the closest to me.  We have very similar coloration.  In fact, it was 19 embarrassing for Nancy, she had hairier arms than I had growing up.  But, of course, she is much 20 more feminine than I am.  I have spent most of my life, especially growing up, affecting a 21 masculine demeanor and swagger, and I dont mind that at all.  I kind of view my body as a gift, 22 as a costume that I wear which has certain aspects that are more advantageous one way than 23 another.  I played to the advantages.   24 
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AJ: Do you have . . . or let me ask you, and please answer this to the extent that you feel 26 comfortable, Karl.  Have you had any medical interventions related to your transgender 27 identity?  Do you intend to ever have any medical interventions?  Hormones?  Surgery?  28 Anything like that?   29 
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KM: Nothing so drastic.  I was interested in hormones, cant get hormones because Ive been found 31 to be crazy.  Well, I have this diagnosis of schizo spectrum disorder, Kate Spencer . . .  32 
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AJ: Schizo spectrum disorder. 34 
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KM: . . . will not prescribe hormones for me.   36 
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AJ: Who is Kate Spencer?   38 
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KM: She is with the U of M Sexual Identity Clinic, across the river just off of Washington Avenue . . . 40 actually, were on the same side of the river, were across the freeway  its like a river, a 41 concrete river. 42 
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AJ: A river of cars  yeah.  So you would like to have hormones?  What about surgery? 44 
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KM: No, I dont think so.  I think that its a step too far for me.  As you have experienced sex with a 1 woman, and I cannot imagine that a vaginal prosthesis, as they call a penile inversion, could ever 2 be nearly as satisfying personally or to a lover as a genuine vagina  jayjay. 3 
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AJ: Well, you know, some people say it is.   5 
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KM: Thats something that I wanted to investigate when I went to college.  I wanted to find out more 7 about transsexualism and I searched through the biggest college library in the United States, the 8 Widener at Harvard, and they had nothing.  And so I went to the Harvard Medical School and 9 searched through their library and under perversions and other . . . I forget what key words I 10 used, but they had nothing.  The first information in a book that I could find on transsexuals, The 11 Transsexual Revolution, by Dr. Benjamin.   12 
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AJ: Harry Benjamin. 14 
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KM: I think so  yes.  So anyway . . .  16 
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AJ: The Transsexual . . . whats it called? 18 
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KM: Revolution.  And they had a picture of a candidate for transsexual surgery, before and after, and 20 I wasnt persuaded that the caption, which Dr. Benjamin labeled as a passing female . . . I forget 21 what adjective he used but didnt convince me that this individual, who he cited as his example 22 of a successful candidate for transsexual surgery, actually passed by my standards.  Its always 23 been very important for me if Im going to . . . it was important then, now I am 60 and Ive lost 24 my sexual mojo to age and disease  diabetes and high blood pressure.  I think that with the 25 lapse in my sexual desire and mojo, that theres also become a lapse in my desire to change 26 sexes or to have sex with anybody  male or female.  Im a much more gentle person now than I 27 ever was.  Im satisfied with hugs and kisses. 28 
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AJ: So, Karl, you mentioned this diagnoses  schizophrenia spectrum . . . is that schizo spectrum 30 disorder? 31 
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KM: Schizo spectrum disorder. 33 
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AJ: Youve had lots of interaction with the medical field and . . .  35 
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KM: Daily with my father. 37 
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AJ: Well that too. 39 
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KM: I couldnt just eat an apple to keep the doctor away, he kept coming home.   41 
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AJ: He kept coming back, kept coming home  thats pretty good.  How are you treated in the 43 medical or the educational or the criminal justice system?  Have you found discrimination based 44 on your varying gender identities?  Are people hostile to you?  How is that experience  45 particularly in the medical because thats where youve had a lot . . .? 46 
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KM: Not so much in the medical field at all.  I find that . . . well, my alternate name is Jessica. 2 
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AJ: Jessica  OK. 4 
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KM: Jessica.   6 
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AJ: Hi Jessica. 8 
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KM: And when Ive gone to the hospital and made it known that I had applied for a name change to 10 Jessica Joan Elise, they honored my wishes and called me Jessica.  However, my family . . . the 11 German side of my family comes from Hartum bei Minden Deutschland. 12 
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AJ: Youre going to have to spell that for me.   14 
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KM: Is that important, really?  Hartum H-a-r-t-u-m, bei b-e-i, Minden M-i-n-d-e-n, so I can go by 16 Mindy as well.  I think that flows off the tongue in a lugubrious manner.  When you say Mindy 17 Meyer, like Marilyn Monroe.   18 
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AJ: Oh Mindy Meyer. 20 
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KM: Its got the mm-mm good aspect to it.   22 
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AJ: Nice.  So, you havent experienced any challenges necessarily in the medical industry? 24 
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KM: No, not really, except for my father.  And I imagine his brother, also a doctor, and father 26 probably similar attitudes.  When my classmate, David Swanson, disappeared in 1965 after I 27 suggested that he cut his own penis off and become a girl and that by this act were married.  28 Nobody said anything to me about what had happened.  None of our classmates, we were in the 29 same class, and none of our teachers  when I asked our teacher, Where is David Swanson?  30 he said, David, who? As if he didnt exist.  But then two years later, I believe then it was the 31 same individual, David Swanson, was back in our school system, apparently unharmed and then 32 he had been used or used me and had tried to psych me out.  Years after that, in 1981, I was 33 introduced to a transsexual named Wendy Elise, thats where I take my name from, Elise  34 Jessica Joan Elise, and she was very angry with me and she talked about the same things that 35 David Swanson talked to me about when he confided his homosexuality to me, which was 36 basically a belief in astrology.  And so, its my conclusion that the David Swanson who graduated 37 with me from high school, went to school with me from 6th-12th grade, was a doppelganger, a 38 double  somebody that I was meant to believe was the same David Swanson who confessed his 39 homosexuality to me in 4th grade but because of my introduction to Wendy Elise and under very 40 unusual circumstances . . . how should I explain this?  I have to go back a little bit, excuse me if I 41 bore you.  But I told our teacher, Mr. Huberty, all right  from now on, after he told me, Dave, 42 who? as if the guy never existed, I told him, From now on I understand that when any teacher 43 in our school system asks me what I want to do with my life, Ill understand they dont mean 44 that  that they only mean for me to name a field other than music or drama, which is the 45 same suggestion I was getting from my father and I was also getting from my teachers, in 46 particular Mr. Huberty.  And I said, I will get a college degree in a field other than music or 1 drama, but I will refuse to apply it as an employee until I get a leading role in a major motion 2 picture.  So years later, after I graduated from college in geology, I was at the Hotel Chelsea in 3 New York City and I was offered $50,000 a year to work for the British American Petroleum 4 Corporation as an exploration geologist and I said, No, thank you, as I said I would do in the 4th 5 grade when I entered into this contract between the US government which compelled my 6 attendance at school and the state of Minnesota which compelled my attendance at school 7 under the terms of the compulsory school attendance contract for my 12 years of time in 8 attending their schools and getting a college degree in a field that met their specifications.  So 9 when I said, No, thank you, Wendy Elise was the consort of Mr. Stanley Holler, who made the 10 offer . . . 11 
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AJ: Stanley  whats his last name? 13 
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KM: Holler.   15 
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AJ: H-o-l . . . 17 
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KM:  . . . l-l-e-r, III.   19 
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AJ: Stanley Holler, III.  He worked for BP? 21 
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KM: BAP, British American Petroleum, not to be confused  a much smaller company. 23 
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AJ: British American Petroleum.   25 
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KM: Right. 27 
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AJ: So you believed that Wendy Elise . . .  29 
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KM: Wendy Elise came to visit me and then revealed that she was a transsexual, during the course of 31 intercourse with her, and because of the association of what I said in 1965 about not taking a 32 job and Davids disappearance that same day, in the eventual field of geology as it turns out, and 33 the appearance of Wendy Elise in 1981 at the same time I was made an offer in the field of 34 geology, I believe it was the same person.   35 
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AJ: Wow. 37 
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KM: However, Im tortured because I dont know what the truth is  of a certainty.   39 
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AJ: Wow, thats a lot. 41 
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KM: I made a promise to my friend, ostensible friend  I said if he needed to do this terrible act of 43 sacrifice and destruction . . . well, it had advantages for him because as a boy you had to attend 44 school seriously, you had to knuckle under and do the studies and get into college or else be 45 drafted into the Vietnam War.  If you were a girl, you were treated kindly, you were protected, 46 and you werent subjected to the draft so you could ignore your schoolwork and concentrate on 1 becoming a singer or an actress if you wanted because college didnt mean an escape from the 2 war for a girl, you were given a free pass.  So that was one of the main reasons I was particularly 3 interested in changing genders. 4 
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AJ: Is to get out of going to the war? 6 
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KM: Get out of going to the war, get out of school, be treated kindly.  My father told me I had to be a 8 girl in order to be a lead singer in a rock band and not also play an instrument.  So in order to get 9 my fathers fostering of my career goals in a manner that I saw fit, I had to be female  except 10 that he would never accept or support my changeover.  As far as I could see from my 11 examination in the mirror, I had very little prospect of making a successful transition, in my 12 opinion, although I needed to investigate, I needed to talk to somebody, I needed expert advice 13 from people who had conducted other patients from one side of the river to the other to see 14 what they thought my prospects were of being able to pass because just being a garden variety 15 cross dresser in public, Ive been beaten up by the police.   16 
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AJ: Oh no.  Are your folks still alive?   18 
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KM: My mother is alive, my father has passed. 20 
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AJ: Your father passed away.  Do you spend much time with your mother, do you talk to her?  Do 22 you communicate with her? 23 
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KM: Oh, unfortunately.  She makes me so angry, its just terrible.  I can hardly spend time with her 25 without becoming apoplectic.   26 
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AJ: Oh wow. 28 
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KM: She is so used to lying to me.  I dont know if she even realizes it, its just part of her nature is to 30 be creative with how she sees things and describes things.   31 
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AJ: So you got beat up by the police? 33 
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KM: Yeah. 35 
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AJ: When did this happen? 37 
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KM: In church. 39 
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AJ: OK. 41 
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KM: An off-duty police officer acting as a security guard, volunteer security guard, at Cedar Valley 43 Church, where I was a member at the time, felled me with one blow basically.  The church 44 leadership, meaning the family life pastor, Andrew Johnston, and the associate head pastor, 45 Roger Lange, had determined to trespass me, to bar me from attending the church, and when 46 Roger asked me to follow him to the east exit, I decided that that wasnt happening and I would 1 take the west exit.  The security guard put his hands on me at that point, and hed already been 2 very disrespectful during Rogers talk with me just previous.  I told him that he could get his 3 fucking hands off me and then the altercation broke out, I was struck on the nose, and bled 4 profusely for about an hour and a half.  This was a St. Louis Park police officer who struck me, 5 but it was the Bloomington Police, they treated me with respect except for the fact that they 6 dont really understand that church law and rules are different, and should be different, at least 7 traditionally, that members of the church do not go to civil authority to solve their internal 8 disputes, they handle it themselves because, after all, we march to a different drummer, a 9 higher cause.  We believe, ostensibly we believe, that God repays and that vengeance is his, not 10 something that we should parcel out to supposedly impartial arbitrators of justice because there 11 is no human arbitrator of justice who is impartial.  Only God knows a mans heart, only God can 12 judge for . . . truthfully and deliver a suitable punishment in his own time and manner for 13 criminal behavior.  Anyway . . .  14 
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AJ: Well Im sorry to hear about your experiences with the police.  I know that for many trans-16 identified people, interactions with law enforcement and churches and other institutions can be 17 challenging.  So Im sorry to hear about that. 18 
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KM: Thats really too bad, its the second church that Ive been ostracized  both were Assembly of 20 God and I really like the membership and the leadership too.  Why they dont like me is a 21 mystery.  I like me too, as well as them. 22 
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AJ: Are you in a relationship right now?  I know you said you kind of . . .  24 
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KM: No . . . sort of.   26 
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AJ:  . . . health-wise, some of the other challenges and age and things.  So, sort of . . . what does that 28 mean?  Do you have a FWB  a friend with benefits? 29 
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KM: Well, at the hospital . . . no, I wish I had the benefits.  For so long, especially in college, I had an 31 affinity for womens underwear.  I would find panties in the laundry, find them on the street, a 32 friend of mine gave me an entire laundry sack of womens clothing that had been abandoned in 33 his room and he wasnt a transvestite like I am.  So, I expressed interest and he gave them to 34 me.   35 
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AJ: So your friend knew about . . . ? 37 
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KM: This other friend that Im talking about, that youre asking about, Sarah, she liked my underwear 39  of course, Im wearing female underwear.   40 
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AJ: OK. 42 
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KM: And so, she saw my thong hanging up in the bathroom, in my room at HCMC and asked me for 44 them.  So shes my panty pal . . . my panty pal.  She now has two pair of panties of mine. 45 
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AJ: Shes a genetic woman? 1 
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KM: Shes a cis female, right.   3 
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AJ: Cis female c-i-s. 5 
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KM: Not sissy. 7 
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AJ: No, no, no.   9 
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KM: But yeah, shes so attractive.  Unfortunately shes almost twenty years younger than I am.  11 Weve gone to a bar and she gets carded and I dont, thats for sure.  I have shown my excess 12 twenty years of age.  Shes an artist and since we have this thing for frilly underwear . . .  13 
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AJ: Do you consider yourself an artist? 15 
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KM: Yes I do. 17 
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AJ: What art medium do you pursue?  What kind of art do you make?   19 
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KM: Im a storyteller.  Thats what attracted me to this opportunity so that I could tell my story.  Of 21 course, Im letting you guide the questions, interview me.  I have sort of my own . . . I wish my 22 vocabulary were better, my underlying motivation is to tell the story of how God acted on my 23 behalf and endowed my right to liberty, as I predicted he would, injuring the President of the 24 United States presiding in my 26th years in 1981, just prior to my introduction to Wendy Elise.  25 So it all tied in together.  After David Swanson disappeared, I had suggested to him that there 26 existed a force of magic in this world that he could rely on in making his decision and that 27 possibly even a magical transformation from male to female would be effected if he just 28 demonstrated the resolve that it took to cut his own penis off.   29 
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AJ: Thats a lot of resolve. 31 
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KM: Thats a lot of resolve, thats more faith than I had, but because we were being plied with 33 misleading suggestions from our parents and teachers, I felt it was important for him to 34 demonstrate his ability to reject misleading suggestions  especially that misleading suggestion, 35 because it seemed the impetus for it was so strong.  In my case, how could you not think when I 36 was rejected  how could I not think that because my parents could not love me as a boy, as I 37 needed to be loved as a boy, that maybe the solution for me would be to cut it off myself.  I 38 resisted that for a very long period of time, it was a very strong impulse for me, but I resisted 39 nonetheless because it seemed to me just obvious that that would result in disaster.  So anyway, 40 I plied David with this misleading suggestion and I had no idea, and I still dont have any idea, 41 that he placed such faith in me that he would follow my suggestion.  I suspected that he was 42 being used from the beginning, sought me out and that he wasnt being sincere in his confession 43 of homosexuality and that he wasnt attracted to me really, that he was playing on my psyche.  44 Where was I going?  Anyway, after I told my teacher, All right, Im going to reject the job, I 45 know the job offer will come because theyre not going to train me for 12 years and then shoot 46 me off the other end after having made this incredible investment in my career as, what has 1 now become known, as a geologist  that theyre going to allow me to walk away from that.  2 There will be an offer, I knew that was coming.  So in 1965 when I said to my teacher, All right, 3 Im not going to take the job, that wasnt enough for me.  I had suggested to David Swanson 4 that magic is in the arm and that in order to defend my sense of honor, I had to demonstrate 5 within my own capability a belief that magic exists in the world  and that belief, my belief as it 6 was delineated in the Declaration of Independence, that God endows me with an inalienable 7 right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in a self-evident fashion and I had to decide 8 what that would look like if the government decided to jilt me, decided to screw me over by not 9 paying me for the 12 years that they were asking for  by not advancing my interests as well as 10 their own.  My interest was, of course, to either be an actor or a lead singer in a rock band.   11 
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AJ: Well you were telling me about your art career.  You went somewhere and thats OK, but I want 13 to bring us back to the interview.   14 
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KM: You mean this hasnt been part of the interview?   16 
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AJ: It has been, but as you noted I have my questions and then you have your own . . . you have 18 your own motive, you said. 19 
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KM: Ulterior motives.  Thats the world I was looking for  ulterior.   21 
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AJ: Right.  So I want to know what you think about the relationship between the lesbian, the gay, 23 the bisexual, and the transgender community.  Do you ever think about that?   24 
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KM: I think about it a little bit, sure.  Its an uneasy partnership, isnt it? 26 
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AJ: I think so, but I want to know what your thoughts are. 28 
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KM: Well yeah, the thing is . . . I was reading in the paper that . . . no, it wasnt the paper, it was a 30 website, it was OutFronts website.  Ninety percent of Americans know someone who is either 31 gay or bisexual, but only . . .  32 
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AJ: Gay you use for men and women? 34 
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KM: It encompasses both female on female and male on male and theres action.   36 
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AJ: Right. 38 
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KM: But only 8% know someone who is trans or transgendered.  I have been running into trans 40 people left and right lately.   41 
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AJ: Really? 43 
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KM: Yeah. 45 
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AJ: Youre starting to see more people?  What do you think thats attributable to?   1 
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KM: Thats a good question.  I think that its become more acceptable to be trans. 3 
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AJ: So society is loosening up and people are coming out more.   5 
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KM: Yeah.   7 
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AJ: Is that an accurate statement for your feelings?  9 
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KM: Yeah, it seems that way. 11 
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AJ: Is that a good thing or a bad thing, in your opinion? 13 
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KM: Good for me.   15 
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AJ: Good for you.  Have you ever been involved in any . . . you said you went to OutFronts website.  17 Have you ever been involved in any gay or lesbian or transgender organizations?  If so, which 18 ones? 19 
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KM: I regularly attend the Southside Trans Support Group.   21 
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AJ: At Southside Caf? 23 
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KM: Yeah.   25 
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AJ: I see.  And you get along with the people there?   27 
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KM: Yeah, my attendance has been interrupted by stays in the hospital and those have been quite 29 lengthy at times  this last time was five weeks.  Five weeks of not attending and sometimes I 30 have just forgotten it was on Wednesdays, I had something else going on.  So Ive been 31 attending since . . . was it in November of last year was my first . . . I think so, the first time I 32 attended.  And then I was petitioned into commitment at HCMC and so I spent all of December 33 and a couple of weeks of January in commitment, then I was returned to the hospital for 34 another month or five weeks for a violation of my provisional discharge.  They found that I had 35 not violated my provisional discharge so I was released again, and then they again filed for a 36 violation of my provisional discharge  this time they decided that I had violated the provisional 37 discharge so I was held for another few weeks or maybe a month or so.  So this year has just 38 been months after months that have been taken from my grasp.   39 
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AJ: A tough year. 41 
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KM: So my attendance at the support group has been spotty.   43 
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AJ: Do you get along with the folks there though?   45 
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KM: Yes, I particularly enjoy dining with them afterwards at Jakeenos.   1 
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AJ: Oh nice.  OK.  Jakeenos is one of my favorite pizza places in the Twin Cities.  They have really 3 good pizza there. 4 
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KM: And it doesnt hurt to have a free cheese pizza with every regular pizza you order on 6 Wednesdays. 7 
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AJ: Is that right?  On Wednesdays, huh?  OK.   9 
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KM: So a good value for the dollar.   11 
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AJ: That helps, absolutely.  So, you know, were just about wrapping up, Karl.  Has your transgender 13 identity presented any challenges for you in your professional life?   14 
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KM: No, it has not.  Much of my professional life . . . I listed writer, researcher, and divine source 16 justice as my occupation.   17 
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AJ: So, divine source justice, what does that mean? 19 
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KM: The activity of God in defending my right to liberty from the numerous injustices that have been 21 . . . that Ive been pelted with by the courts.  When they have a charge, they dont let me face it 22 in criminal court where Im protected from hearsay testimony and protected by having a jury of 23 my peers, they always kick me out to probate court where they try to commit me.  So the 24 penalty is greater than I would face if I were facing a charge in criminal court and the 25 protections are less.   26 
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AJ: Wow.   28 
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KM: So I feel, and I have made this known to the judges that Ive faced, that those who kill police 30 officers serve the interest of public safety.   31 
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AJ: Hmmm, well, thats a tough statement, Karl.  I dont think I would say that to the police or the 33 court.   34 
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KM: Thats part of being an entertainer, being outrageous. 36 
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AJ: They dont like that kind of stuff.  So no impact . . . where did you go to college? 38 
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KM: Harvard.   40 
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AJ: You went to Harvard? 42 
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KM: Yeah. 44 
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AJ: In Massachusetts? 46 
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KM: Thats right.   2 
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AJ: What was your major? 4 
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KM: Geology. 6 
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AJ: Geology.   8 
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KM: You havent been paying attention.  I formed the Adams House Transvestite Table with Maura 10 Moynihan and Gaston Ormazabal. 11 
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AJ: Gaston Ormazabal. 13 
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KM: Ormazabal.  Isnt that a nice name?   15 
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AJ: My translator is going to email me and ask me how to spell his name.  So if you can spell it for 17 me now Id appreciate it.   18 
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KM: OK.  O-r-m-a-z-a-b-a-l.   20 
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AJ: Whats his first name? 22 
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KM: Gaston.   24 
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AJ: G-a-s-t-o-n.   26 
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KM: Yeah.   28 
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AJ: Gaston Ormazabal.  30 
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KM: However, I was dressed as a cis male at the inaugural meeting of the transvestites table, owing 32 to my underlying female identity.   33 
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AJ: Where was this?  Where did this happen?   35 
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KM: I was cross-dressed as a male in some respect. 37 
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AJ: Ive heard many . . .  39 
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KM: In the lunch room at Adams House at Harvard.  Theres the undergraduate . . . the freshmen 41 students all eat at the freshmen . . . I forget what its called now.  But once you get to be a 42 sophomore, then you go to one of the houses which are just . . . theyre not really dormitories, 43 theyre all encompassing.  They have meetings rooms and dining rooms.  Adams House had a 44 swimming pool and that was the closet one to Harvard Yard, so I had the least far to walk to get 45 to my classes.  If I had gone to Leverette or Quincy, I would have had to cross Mt. Auburn Street 1 and Holy Oak Avenue.   2 
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AJ: Cambridge is the word I was trying to look for . . . I kept trying to think of the little town that 4 Harvard is in.  I know its in Boston, but technically its in Cambridge.   5 
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KM: Correct.  Anyway, the lunch ladies didnt want me to go over and join Maura and Gaston 7 because Maura was dressed in her tuxedo and Gaston was cross dressed  those Irish Catholic 8 ladies that were serving our lunch were very conservative in their values.   9 
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AJ: Yes, Boston, Massachusetts  lots of Irish Catholics and lots of conservativism.  Well, this has 11 been a really interesting conversation.  Anything else you want us to know, you want the 12 camera to know about Karl Meyer? 13 
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KM: Sure, sure.  Ill plug my latest endeavor.  I have applied for fledgling assistance with the Phoenix 15 Theatre to tell my story and theyre due to make a decision come October 8th or so when my 16 application is presented to the board.  If they let me tell my story from the stage, there may be 17 song and dance.  I know that Eric Cohen who is one of the project managers at the theatre 18 wants me to spice up my acts so that there is more than just me, a chair, and a spotlight.  So 19 come and see the show. 20 
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AJ: Well, thank you, Karl.  I really appreciate you taking the time to sit down with us and opening up 22 a little bit about yourself and your life and some of the joys and some of the challenges.  Good 23 luck to you in everything.  Thank you for your time. 24 

