 
 
 
 
Paula Overby Narrator   Andrea Jenkins Interviewer 
 
 
 
 
 
The Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies University of Minnesota 
November 16, 2015 
 
 
 
  

  
 
The Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story, while providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source material about the transgender community.  The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for current and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public. 
The Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300 individuals over the next three years.  Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and experiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality.  This project will be led by Andrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist.  Andrea brings years of experience working in government, non-profits and LGBT organizations.  If you are interested in being involved in this exciting project, please contact Andrea. 
Andrea Jenkins jenki120@umn.edu (612) 625-4379 
 
 
 
 
  
Andrea Jenkins -AJ 1 
Paula Overby -PO 2 
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AJ:  My name is Andrea Jenkins and I am the oral historian for the Transgender Oral History Project 5 at the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  Today is November 16, 2015, and Im at 6 the home of Paula Overby.  Paula, can you just state your name, state your gender identity, your 7 gender assigned at birth, and . . . yeah, introduce yourself? 8 
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PO: My name is Paula Overby.  Im female now, I was identified as a male at birth.  I sort of spent 10 most of my life trying to fill that role as best I could.  I guess Ive lost the questions. 11 
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AJ: Well you answered the question  your gender now, how you identify now. 13 
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PO: I identify as female. 15 
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AJ: And what was your gender assigned at birth?  You said you were assigned male at birth. 17 
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PO: I was assigned male at birth and I identify now as a female. 19 
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AJ: Great.  So, Paula can you just tell me whats your earliest memory? 21 
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PO: Of believing I was female or feeling that I was female? 23 
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AJ: It can be whatever memory . . . just your earliest memory in life.  It might have to do with your 25 gender identity or not. 26 
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PO: My earliest memory, actually, was when I was about . . . I must have been almost three 28 probably, it was at Christmas. My brother and I had gotten these pumpkins for Christmas that 29 shot plastic balls and, of course, we targeted the Christmas tree and broke one of the Christmas 30 bulbs.  I have a fairly vivid visual image of that.   31 
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AJ: How old do you think you were? 33 
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PO: It was at Christmas time . . . it must have been just before my 3rd birthday, so almost three.  35 About two and a half. 36 
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AJ: OK, wow.  Your birthday is in . . . December? 38 
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PO: February  end of February.   40 
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AJ: OK, cool.  Where did you grow up and go to elementary school?   42 
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PO: I went to elementary school in a little town north of Milwaukee called Grafton.   44 
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AJ: How do you spell that? 46 
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PO: G-r-a-f-t-o-n.  Some of the surrounding towns would be Cedarburg, Port Washington if anyone is 2 familiar with that area  about 30 miles north of Milwaukee proper.   3 
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AJ: So you were born in Wisconsin? 5 
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PO: No, I was born in Minnesota.  I was born in Redwood Falls, Minnesota, thats out in the 7 southwest part of the state.  My father was a teacher at that time in Wabasso, also out in that 8 area.  He changed careers shortly after I was born  he became an engineer and we moved to 9 Cincinnati, Ohio.  So I spent the first . . . thats probably when I was about 18 months, I guess.  10 We were only there for about a year, managed to break my leg though while I was there.  So 11 while I was there I was in the hospital in traction for six months . . . or six weeks, most of the 12 time I was there.  And then we were in a couple of apartments in Milwaukee, we moved to 13 Grafton when I was about four. 14 
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AJ: OK.  So you went to elementary school in Wisconsin, in Grafton? 16 
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PO: In Wisconsin, yes.   18 
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AJ: What was that experience like?   20 
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PO: It was great.  I had a great childhood, we were in a parochial school.   22 
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AJ: Catholic school? 24 
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PO: No, it was Lutheran.  So my early experiences of faith and religion too was based on a loving 26 God, a lot of song, and Christmas pageants, Bible stories.  I had . . . all my friends were girls, my 27 sister was almost three years younger than me, there were two girls that lived across the street 28  one was my age, one was my sisters age.  So we were pretty tight.  We were even, at that 29 time, already out to save the world.  We had a Blue Eagles Club and we sponsored penny fairs 30 and tried to raise money for charity and rescued injured animals.  So for the most part, in my 31 childhood, looking back on my childhood, I got to be a girl.  Nobody really noticed.  My brother 32 was older, almost four years older, and most of the boys in the neighborhood were his age.  And 33 quite honestly, at that time, as a child, I kind of perceived gender, I think, as a question of age 34 than sexuality. 35 
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AJ: Oh really, thats interesting.   37 
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PO: Yeah, the boys were the older ones and the girls were younger.   39 
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AJ: So you felt like you comported yourself as a girl.  Do you think other people perceived you as a 41 girl? 42 
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PO: I would guess not, certainly my mother never did.  No, I wore boy clothes, I hated the boy 44 clothes.  I had a butch haircut, a buzz cut, which was popular in those days  I hated that as well.  45 I never cut my hair after I got to high school  for many years I never cut my hair.  But yeah, I 46 
think people see what they want to see.  I think a lot of the focus in terms of the man of the 1 family, the boy, I think a lot of that focus was on my brother.   2 
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AJ: OK. 4 
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PO: Which kind of gave me a lot more freedom to just be who I was and I appreciate that.  They 6 wanted him to be a minister and . . . thats another whole story.   7 
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AJ: So you spent your whole childhood in Grafton or did you move to Minnesota? 9 
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PO: We moved when I was in 5th grade and we moved to Cudahy, a suburb of Milwaukee called 11 Cudahy.  That was, you know, pretty traumatic  kind of introduced me to the real world, it 12 separated me from all my girlfriends and now Im alone in a gendered environment.  Even there 13 I see, over time, how I found other girls and other girlfriends.  So I was just starting to get 14 adjusted to that in 7th grade, finally  I had a couple of girlfriends, we were pretty tight, and then 15 they moved me to New Hampshire. 16 
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AJ: Oh, wow. 18 
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PO: Oh wow.  And thats when I first started really, really understanding just how different I was 20 because they, at that junior high in Nashua, it was much more regimented.  I came from a 21 suburban high school, junior high, in Milwaukee where it was almost like a college campus and 22 here Im on this regimented junior high where they separated the boys from the girls and then it 23 became really clear to me that I was not with the right gender, I wasnt allowed to be with my 24 peers, that was very stressful.  I think that thats when I first really became aware of the trans 25 issues, I guess. 26 
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AJ: Did you experience any bullying?  Did other people recognize your gender confusion? 28 
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PO: Nobody ever seemed to.  I mean I didnt . . . in a lot of ways I was very visible, in fact I ran for 30 class president in my senior year.  I think everybody knew me and I was kind of the extremist  31 and it was maybe a little easier to get away with at that time, during the hippie movement.  We 32 had a sit-in at our school where girls wanted to wear jeans.  It maybe wasnt so obvious. 33 
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AJ: What year was this? What year did you graduate from high school?   35 
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PO: Late 1960s  1968, 1969, 1970.  So, at the height of the hippie movement, the anti-war 37 movement.  I wore stuff that nobody else would wear.  I was pretty well known for my people 38 pants  I had these pants, they were white with blue faces all over them.  I wore Nehru shirts, 39 which nobody wore.  So, I distinguished myself but not as effeminate, I guess.  So I dont know 40 that people really noticed that.  I wasnt into sports, I certainly wasnt qualified by that time to 41 even try-out for sports . . . I did, I tried out for baseball, that was a joke.  So I found other . . . 42 what shall I say?  Peripheral members of society, we found our own group.  We formed a 43 student theatre group.  We pretty much went outside our school, in our school there was 44 nothing but sports and sports was only for boys in those days.   45 
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AJ: So you sort of alluded to it, but when was the first time you really understood, I am not the 1 gender I was assigned at birth.  And maybe you didnt even have language like, Im a 2 transsexual, but when did you know, before you even developed that language.   3 
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PO: Clearly in junior high, but I never . . . I guess I never conceptualized it that way, as I can recall.  I 5 had a couple experiences with trying on womens clothes.  I hear other trans women talking 6 about thats how they knew, because they were attracted to womens fashions.  I guess I think 7 of gender in a lot deeper way.  I think of gender in a more fluid sense.  I dont know when . . . 8 when I really decided that I was not the gender I was given at birth, I was probably 50 years old.  9 Up until that time, I really felt that gender could be, and was, more fluid than that.  I think in 10 large part it has to do with the idea that I didnt really understand or recognize the intense 11 gender separation in our culture.  I never had to deal with that growing up.  I had the fluidity 12 and the flexibility to be myself.  13 
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AJ: So how did you define your gender prior to 50?  And then what gender did you determine you 15 were at 50?  How does that relate to how you identify your gender today? 16 
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PO: We kind of separate the idea of gender and sexuality, right?  So initially I kind of defined it in 18 terms of . . . I thought about it in terms of sexuality.  Ive always been attracted to men.  In 19 college, when I got in a little bit more liberated environment, I dated a guy.  I thought maybe I 20 was gay, gay language was becoming more common at that time.   21 
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AJ: Where did you go to college? 23 
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PO: University of Minnesota, here in Minneapolis.  So I came back to Minnesota when I started going 25 to college.  That went really badly.  He raped me, he beat me.  I spent quite a couple of years 26 trying to recover from that.  And so, I think that kind of separated me from the whole idea of 27 sexuality and gender.  I tried it again  I flirted with a guy a couple years later, I knew he was 28 gay.  The next day he killed himself in a very violent suicide.  I felt guilty about that.  But by that 29 time I knew that . . . I guess by that time I definitely knew that I was a female, I guess even then I 30 probably didnt think of myself as a female but I knew that I was suited to being a woman.  I 31 wanted to be like my mom, I wanted to be a housewife, I wanted to have a family.  But I knew I 32 wasnt going to be able to have those things unless I presented as a man.  After that friend killed 33 himself, within a year, I had a family.  Thats when I met my future spouse, she had a 3-year-old 34 daughter.  I fell in love with that.  So by that time, I knew I was pretending to be the man.   35 
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AJ: So you identified as a gay man for a little while. 37 
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PO: That would have been in my twenties.  I tried the gay man thing for a little while.   39 
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AJ: And then you sort of identified as a straight man. 41 
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PO: And then I did the straight man thing  yeah.   43 
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AJ: Even though you knew that you were sort of faking or pretending or trying to conform to 45 society.   46 
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PO: Yes.  Looking back on it, I never realized . . . I thought I was pretty good at it too, and I guess I 2 was pretty good at it, but people see what they want to see basically, and if youre sort of acting 3 male, theyll accept you as a male.  But looking back on it and talking with some of the people I 4 worked with years ago, I just never realized just how effeminate I was.   5 
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AJ: Oh wow.  So, when you were 50 you pretty much figured out this is who I am, a woman.  Do you 7 use the term transgender woman or . . .? 8 
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PO: I definitely identify as transgender woman.  Even today, I dont . . . I see myself not clearly on 10 either side of that gender divide.  Its not possible for me to reject the idea of sex and gender.  I 11 think its unrealistic, so I think in terms of the spectrum  there is female on one side, there is 12 male on the other side, theres the rest of us in between.  And so, I feel like Ive grown up in two 13 different cultures  Ive grown up in a male culture, Ive grown up in a female culture, and 14 theyre very different cultures.  And which is probably, I guess, why I identify as transgender 15 because I still see myself as in the middle ground between those two cultures, even though I 16 identify much more with being female and with being a woman.   17 
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AJ: What are some of the challenges that youve faced since you began to express your female 19 identity? 20 
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PO: You know its difficult to assess some of that.  I made a very strong commitment to playing that 22 male role, that heterosexual male role, when I chose to marry a woman and have a family.  That 23 didnt work out, in part because of the transgender issues probably but there were a lot of other 24 issues.  We dealt with a lot of very difficult issues.  25 
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AJ: How long were you married? 27 
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PO: Twenty-eight years. 29 
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AJ: Thats a long time. 31 
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PO: Its a very long time.  I was committed to that, I would have stayed with that, but she wanted 33 something else and so we divorced and thats when it was completely obvious to me that 34 transition was really the only option I had.  I thought about just eliminating myself for a while, 35 two years into the divorce . . . the divorce was really ugly.  A lot of accusations and allegations 36 and threats from the court and after two years of that I thought maybe I would just drink myself 37 to death, that was kind of my plan.  I say by the grace of God, just before the final papers, we 38 were going to sign the final papers, I was in a pretty serious car accident so I was in a lot of pain, 39 I went to my doctor, and hed been my doctor forever and I trust him dearly, and he said, You 40 can quit drinking or you can die.  And thats when my life turned around, thats when I 41 transitioned, thats when I decided I was going to live my life as a woman and Im going to be 42 who I am as a female.  How has it affected my life?  I lost everything before I transitioned and 43 thats when I transitioned.  44 
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AJ: When you say everything, like job, your home? 46 
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PO: Well they put me out of my house, I lost my son, the divorce was hugely expensive  it totally 2 disseminated any wealth that we had, which wasnt much to begin with.  I couldnt sustain my 3 career by the end of the divorce.  I was unemployed basically.  And so, I guess the way its 4 affected me is that in two years I havent been able to find employment.  Im an extremely 5 competent . . . I have a great resume, I have a lot of great experience.  I was a consultant for 10 6 years. 7 
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AJ: On what issues, what subject? 9 
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PO: Quality assurance, data analysis.  But Im just now, after two years, kind of the opinion that 11 nobody is going to hire an old woman in IT.   12 
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AJ: So you had an IT career? 14 
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PO: I had an IT career, yeah.  After I married, I took on that responsibility of the family and decided I 16 needed to make more money.  I started out in psychology actually, I spent several years as a 17 mental health counselor.  So now Im doing phone center work.  Its a low wage job.  I guess I 18 enjoy it and Im very customer oriented. 19 
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AJ: Are you able to work as yourself?   21 
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PO: Yeah.  I live my life completely as a woman, a female.  Ive been doing that for . . . well, thats 23 kind of ambiguous too because I spent so many years as a man in a dress, but certainly since the 24 decision I made during the divorce, that would have been in 2011.  So at least four years now.  25 Ive been on hormones almost that long too. 26 
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AJ: Rewind the tape.  Man in a dress.  What does that mean to you? 28 
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PO: Well, thats kind of how I coped.  When I decided to be this white heterosexual male, I was 30 taking on the image of my father really.  He was a great provider, I loved my father, but he was 31 rigid in a lot of ways too.  It was more difficult than I imagined it to be, I guess.  I still had all 32 these feminine feelings, I still had all these female feminine needs and so the challenge, of 33 course, was to figure out how to cope with that.  I needed girlfriends, I needed other female 34 relationships, I saw myself as a mother, I spent a lot of time with child care, I wanted to be with 35 other mothers.  And, of course, I was isolated from all that.  I dont know really how I really 36 decided this or why I decided this, but in around 2003, when I was just starting out a new 37 career, I decided that I would start wearing dresses.  And it worked really well for me, in part 38 because my spouse was really jealous, an extremely jealous woman, and so that prevented me 39 from having any kind of female relationships.  And so, as a man in a dress . . . I dont know why 40 even, but a lot of people perceived me as being feminine.  I had a lot of great conversations with 41 other women so it allowed me to . . . 42 
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AJ: So you just wore a dress?  Everywhere?  To work, in this new career? 44 
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PO: Everywhere but work and home.   46 
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AJ: Everywhere but work and home.  2 
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PO: Yeah.  It was crazy nuts in a lot of ways. 4 
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AJ: So you were a crossdresser? 6 
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PO: Well . . . yeah, technically.  But I wasnt presenting as a woman.  OK.  So I didnt wear wigs, I 8 didnt wear make-up, I had a mustache.   9 
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AJ: You just wore a dress. 11 
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PO: I just wore a dress.  I actually tried to frame it as a mens rights issue.   13 
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AJ: Oh wow, that is fascinating.  How was that perceived?  I mean people had to really kind of . . . 15 
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PO: It didnt go over really well.  Men dont want to wear dresses is what I finally figured out.   17 
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AJ: Im sorry.  So you didnt get a lot of guys on your side. 19 
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PO: No, I didnt get a lot of guys on my side.  I know, in part too, I was in a therapy group with men  21 male sexual offenders, thats another story  I dont know where it fits in here.  I had gone to . . . 22 I was trying to find, actually, a support group for partners of survivors, there were no services 23 for men.  Today there are still virtually no services for men.   24 
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AJ: So you were abused?  You were a survivor of sexual abuse? 26 
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PO: Well the rape in college but my . . . more to support my spouse.  And, of course, Im not going to 28 be able to talk about that.   29 
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AJ: No, thats fine.   31 
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PO: So in a group of . . . it was a sexual boundaries group so it was primarily men with convictions for 33 . . . sexual offenders, mainly sexual offenders.  And, of course, me being the female, the woman, 34 I actually was wearing dresses when I went to that group, during that man in a dress phase, it 35 did work.  I learned a lot about men.  I learned a lot about sexual abuse, child abuse, social 36 injustice, and I guess I was deciding at that point, or during that time, that sexual harassment, or 37 sexual exploitation, isnt just a womans issue.  Most of the men I was with had grown up in very 38 violent, very incestuous environments, and men are punished for that, not treated.  But anyway, 39 that was part of the man in a dress phase. 40 
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AJ: How long did that last?  42 
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PO: Almost seven or eight years, so 2003 until I transitioned in 2009, so whats that?  Six years at 44 least.  I mean one of the things that surprised me was . . .  45 
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AJ: And you said your divorce was in 2011, right? 1 
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PO: Well it started in 2009.   3 
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AJ: Oh, it started in 2009.  OK.   5 
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PO: So I guess the transition was really more toward . . . in 2011, so up through 2011  so about 7 seven or eight years.  It worked really well for me.  It allowed me to socialize as a woman, a 8 female, and maintain all those male roles as an employer, employment, a husband, and a father.  9 I didnt hide it.  My family knew me as a cross dresser, my children had seen me dressed in 10 womens clothing.  Ive done some performances as a woman. 11 
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AJ: What kinds of performances?   13 
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PO: The big one I did was Confessions of a Crossdresser.   15 
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AJ: OK.  Did you write it?   17 
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PO: Whats that? 19 
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AJ: Did you write that? 21 
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PO: I wrote it, yeah.  I performed it down at Patricks Cabaret and it was hugely popular.  It identified 23 some of the events in my life that turned me into being a crossdresser. 24 
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AJ: Do you still have the script? 26 
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PO: I still have the script, yeah. 28 
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AJ: You should donate it to our collection. 30 
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PO: Yeah, Id be willing to share that.  Sure.   32 
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AJ: Absolutely. 34 
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PO: OK.  So, I knew before I got married that I was a woman.  I guess I never . . . when you cant have 36 something, I guess, you kind of pretend that you dont need it or you dont want it, and I think 37 there was probably a lot of denial around that.  One thing that surprised me a lot about the man 38 in a dress stage was how many men offered to protect me.   39 
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AJ: Really?  How so? 41 
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PO: Yeah, so it gave me a little different impression of men as well. 43 
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AJ: Like how so?  Like walk you to your car or . . . when you say protect you, did you get in fights and 45 they . . . ? 46 
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PO: Yeah, well just let me know that they were there if there was any trouble.  I remember one night 2 in particular, I was out in Apple Valley and there was a Vikings/Packers game going on that night 3 and this very large, tall Black man came up to me and he said, I think youre in the wrong 4 place.  And so I said, Are you threatening me?  And he said, No, because I was wearing 5 purple, of course, he said, There are some Packers fans in there and theyre pretty rowdy. If 6 you have any problems you just come and get me.  So that was really cool.  White people, we 7 grew up afraid of Black people . . .  8 
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AJ: Well thats . . . tell me about that.  Why is that? 10 
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PO: I hate to say that but its the truth.  I grew up pretty much white and we do tend to internalize . . 12 .  13 
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AJ: Why are white people afraid of Black people though?  In your opinion.   15 
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PO: You know, I think its a lot of social propaganda, those prejudices. 17 
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AJ: So the way society has sort of created this image of Black people? 19 
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PO: Yes.  I see it now, really, as an issue of wealth.  The wealthy ruling class, they benefit from 21 creating prejudice, criminalizing behavior.  I mean to the extent now where we have for-profit 22 prisons.  Crime is a profitable venture. 23 
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AJ: Unbelievable.   25 
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PO: It is unbelievable and its not right.   27 
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AJ: In a society thats based on democracy and freedom, you can monetize taking away someones 29 freedom.  Thats quite something. 30 
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PO: And so I definitely oppose that.  I saw that same thing across the board  its gender 32 discrimination, its racial discrimination, any form of discrimination.  When I was in that therapy 33 group with men . . . I mean, Minnesota is dealing with it now with the Minnesota sexual 34 offenders program.  OK, some of those men have been in there since they were teenagers, 35 theyre not receiving any therapy, theyre not receiving any treatment, and clearly people can 36 recover from the kind of abusive environment that many of them grew up in.  They havent 37 learned any boundaries and theyve never been offered that opportunity, so its the same kind 38 of thing. 39 
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AJ: What are some of the positive things that have happened for you since you began to express 41 your gender identity?  42 
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PO: Well, I mean just the freedom, right?  I dont know how many trans women havent felt that.   44 
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AJ: You should see your face, its really happy right now. 46 
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PO: Yeah, thank you.  And that was the feeling . . . and most days I feel that way.  In the beginning, I 2 mean I can remember the day  its like, Im not doing this anymore, Im a woman and Im just 3 going to live my life as a woman.  It was so liberating.  I remember within weeks getting rid of all 4 those boy clothes and how liberating that was.  And to finally feel free from all that pretending, 5 all that pretentiousness, all that doubt.  In the beginning its like . . . of course, transitioning is . . 6 . physical transition is very much . . . well, I can only imagine what it was like for cis women and 7 boys, but I have to imagine its just like going through puberty, right?  And for me, and I think for 8 a lot of trans women I talk to, you feel that way  you feel young again, you feel like this bubbly 9 little teenage girl and you want to wear all that cute trashy stuff and be a teenager for a little 10 while.  And, of course, at 50 years old, youre just not dressing appropriately.  We see it now 11 with Caitlyn Jenner, shes in the news behaving like a little girl. 12 
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AJ: What do you think about Caitlyn? 14 
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PO: You know, I think its . . . I saw the first interview, I thought that was awesome, I thought it gave 16 . . .  17 
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AJ: The one with Leslie Stahl was it? 19 
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PO: Yeah, on 20/20.  I thought it gave a real accurate impression of what its like to be transgender, 21 to grow up transgender, the struggle that we deal with, the conflict. 22 
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AJ: I certainly related to a lot of things that she said. 24 
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PO: But I was really disappointed with the media presentation when she came out.  Shes still being 26 really ambiguous about what her gender identity is, not too surprising  thats part of transition, 27 its a process.  But, you know, to be on the cover of Vanity Fair in her first appearance as a 28 woman and in a virgin white corset, I just couldnt help recognizing all of the sexism involved.  29 Im very, very opposed to the sexual exploitation of women, all the rape and violence against 30 women in this culture.  Ive been very . . . I felt very positive and optimistic about the Black 31 women of color leadership that weve had in the transgender movement.  I think of the 32 transgender movement as crossing all boundaries, as offering hope to everyone that has dealt 33 with social oppression.  And, so then I see this image between someone like Laverne Cox or 34 even yourself, Andrea, and Caitlyn Jenner.  And its like, so OK, now were going to make it about 35 white girls wearing corsets on Vanity Fair and it just . . . it contradicted everything I envisioned 36 for the transgender movement.  I dont want people to be thinking about transgender as boys 37 becoming girls and thats kind of the classic media image and her transition just really reinforced 38 all of that.  I empathize with her, I know what shes dealing with.  Shes trans, I have no doubt 39 about that.  But just the media imagery was very, I thought, inappropriate.   40 
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AJ: Thats a great analysis, a great perspective.  But, she has created a level of visibility that I dont 42 know could be achieved otherwise.  One of the greatest athletes ever who transitioned to 43 female . . . I mean, that story is international.  Laverne Cox, shes pretty much well known in the 44 United States.  Andrea Jenkins, shes fairly well known in Minneapolis, but . . .  45 
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PO: Oh, give yourself more credit than that. 1 
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AJ: But Caitlyn Jenner is known all throughout the world and with the spotlight on transgender 3 identities.   4 
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PO: Well, true.  Im known throughout the world too, I get a lot of hits on my website every day from 6 all over the world.  But, we need . . . and publicity is good, awareness is good, but we need to 7 also consider the kind of messages were creating and, I think, maybe take that to the next level.  8 Laverne Cox was on the cover of Time magazine talking about the transgender tipping point. 9 
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AJ: Absolutely. 11 
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PO: Vice President Joe Biden described the transgender movement as a civil rights movement of our 13 day.  Lets make that happen.  And its not about protecting poor little helpless trans people.  I 14 want the movement to be much bigger than that, much more meaningful than that.  I really do 15 agree, I really do believe, that the transgender movement is like the civil rights movement of our 16 day because it crosses all boundaries and if we can create that kind of unity among all these 17 pockets of oppression, whether its gender or race or religion, that becomes a powerful grass 18 roots movement, thats what creates change  not politicians.   19 
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AJ: So Paula, to the extent that you feel comfortable, please tell me about any medical 21 interventions that you have had undergone or undertaken since . . . as part of your transition. 22 
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PO: They have the WPATH standards that tells us how we can . . .? 24 
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AJ: Whats WPATH? 26 
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PO: World . . . you use the acronym for so long you forget what it stands for.   28 
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AJ: I actually know . . . the World Professional Association of Transgender Health.   30 
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PO: Yeah, there we go.   32 
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AJ: I just wanted to make sure everybody who might listen, not that you know but that other people 34 know. 35 
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PO: Exactly.  And like I said, you use these expressions for so long you forget what they stand for.  So 37 yeah, World Professional Association of Transgender Health.  Years ago . . . when I first started 38 looking at my identity and trans issues, of course I went to the web.  I saw a lot of crossdresser 39 sites that didnt fit me.  Then I went to some of the literature, one of my favorite is probably 40 Transgender Warriors.   41 
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AJ: Oh, Kate Bornstein.   43 
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PO: Whats that? 45 
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AJ: By Kate Bornstein.   1 
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PO: Yeah, Whipping Girl is another one by . . .  3 
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AJ: Julia Serano.   5 
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PO: Julia Serano, really delves well into the issues of sexism and how that affects transgenders.  7 Some of the history around transgender . . . forgot the question . . . oh, what medical 8 treatments. 9 
 10 
AJ: What medical treatments have you undertaken? 11 
 12 
PO: Im very long winded, Im a politician you know.  I guess I forgot where I was going with that . . . 13 oh, the WPATH standards.  Yeah, and what it takes to transition.  So reading Kates book on 14 some of the history, we talked about the gatekeeper role and the time when transition really 15 meant that you really had to prove that you were, and generally to a male therapist, that you 16 were feminine enough to pass as a woman.  Those standards have softened quite a bit.  I 17 mention it because Ive started in therapy again, and thats part of the process of physical 18 transition.  So Ive been on hormones for almost four years now.   19 
 20 
AJ: OK.  Estrogen . . .  21 
 22 
PO: Whats that? 23 
 24 
AJ: Estrogen. 25 
 26 
PO: Estrogen, yeah.  Estradiol, I take Estradiol, and Progesterone, Spironolactone  which is actually 27 a beta blocker, it really inhibits the effects of testosterone, male testosterone, its not a female 28 hormone.  So Progesterone and Estradiol, estrogen is the main one.  Thats been fantastic.  I 29 have physically gotten substantial benefits from that, a little bit more shape . . . of course Ive 30 lost a lot of muscle mass.  Ive developed reasonably nice breasts, theyre not quite what I want 31 them to be but thats . . . I think thats kind of a gender dysphoria that just about every woman 32 experiences  whatever they were assigned at birth.  So the estrogen has been great, thats 33 been about four years.  It has had some benefits, I guess, in terms of body hair, not so much 34 with the beard  I had electrolysis, or not electrolysis but laser treatment. 35 
 36 
AJ: Oh wow. 37 
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PO: And that was very effective except some of the hairs . . . its really only effective with dark-39 colored hair.  So I still have to shave just about every day which I hate, of course, but thats not 40 uncommon either for women Im hearing. 41 
 42 
AJ: Yeah, many women across the gender spectrum need to . . .  43 
 44 
PO: Yeah, that spectrum.  Theres a lot more overlap than people realize.  45 
 46 
AJ: Absolutely.   1 
 2 
PO: And now, I definitely want . . . I prefer sexual re-assignment surgery.  I think a lot of the trans 3 women prefer gender confirmation surgery  thats what most of the public wants to know 4 about.  I dont know that Ill get to that point.  Im going to see a therapist now, thats part of the 5 process.  Is hugely expensive, its not covered by insurance. 6 
 7 
AJ: Well, theres been some changes.   8 
 9 
PO: Its changing. 10 
 11 
AJ: Medicare and Obamacare. 12 
 13 
PO: Im optimistic that I will have that opportunity.  It needs to be in the near future because Im not 14 getting any younger.  But the transition is . . . 15 
 16 
AJ: Unfortunately none of us are. 17 
 18 
PO: Yeah.  But the transition certainly made me feel younger.  19 
 20 
AJ: Thats good. 21 
 22 
PO: But thats basically it.  Ive always had really hot, sexy legs.  Its kind of one of the weird things 23 about being male, presenting male.  I have no hair on my legs. 24 
 25 
AJ: Wow, thats a bonus. 26 
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PO: Yeah, it is now.  It wasnt then. 28 
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AJ: It wasnt then, huh?  Looking back over your decision to really begin to fully express your true 30 gender identity, what were some pivotal moments that defined your new life and would you do 31 anything differently?   32 
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PO: Well, I mean, of course, just the decision to transition.  When I think about my life today and the 34 opportunities available to me, creating . . . Im really starting over and I feel like Im running out 35 of time, I guess.  Its clear to me, having spent so many years working as a male, that theres a 36 lot of discrimination against women in the workplace.  I think that a lot of people recognize that, 37 of course  were certainly aware of the economic inequality between males and females, and I 38 dont really have that opportunity anymore to work my way up and develop a new career.  I 39 think maybe thats a good thing because now Im focusing on writing a book, I can focus on 40 other things.  I dont have a family to take care of anymore.  I did what I felt was necessary, 41 looking back on it I think thats the only choice I had given the time, given the circumstances.  It 42 all worked out quite well . . . really well for me, actually, because I got to be a mom.  That wasnt 43 something I anticipated.  I mean I wanted a family and it wasnt something I anticipated when I 44 decided to be the heterosexual male.  But thats still the most valuable thing in my life.  I guess if 45 I was to change anything I wouldnt have that would I?  Probably not. 46 
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AJ: Maybe not.  Tell me a little bit about any sort of person or organization that has had a significant 2 impact on you related to your gender identity?  Is there a mentor, is there an organization that 3 you connected yourself with? 4 
 5 
PO: You know, Im going to give a shout out to the Mens Center.  When I was presenting as a man, 6 and I know even presenting as a transgender person, that if I had been presenting as 7 transgender or gender queer, there would have been no place for me.  That was the only group 8 in the community to take me in, so to speak.  A man in a dress, certainly there were no womens 9 organizations that would have offered me therapy.  And, that . . . I think I learned an awful lot 10 about gender, gender inequity.  I certainly learned a lot about sexuality, about gay men.  I got 11 training there on the Among Men Project, which is kind of an AIDS prevention project. 12 
 13 
AJ: Among Men? 14 
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PO: Among Men, yeah.  Its really an AIDS prevention project, and I actually worked as a facilitator 16 for that program.  I didnt really understand gay issues or the issues of sexuality until I really had 17 that opportunity to have those discussions.  They had a profound influence on my views and I 18 think the equity of my perspectives.  Im not just about transgender rights, I really do feel that 19 men need the same protections as women, men need the same opportunities as women.  I 20 recognize . . . 21 
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AJ: You dont think men have those? 23 
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PO: No, not today.  Not as much as they used to and I see it more and more in our culture, more and 25 more . . . 26 
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AJ: Thats a tough one to convince people about, Paula.  Ive just got to be really honest with you. 28 
 29 
PO: It certainly is.  More and more I view it as a stratification of wealth, and quite honestly, Andrea, 30 you know I hear it from the Black community as well.  People didnt want welfare, they wanted 31 jobs.   32 
 33 
AJ: Absolutely. 34 
 35 
PO: And, Black men were denied jobs, right? 36 
 37 
AJ: Absolutely. 38 
 39 
PO: So thats an example, in terms of racism, and thats an example of where men were denied the 40 opportunity. 41 
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AJ: But thats not about gender equality, thats about . . .  43 
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PO: All right, well let me expand on that then.  So more and more . . . so, I have no question about 45 the fact that our culture is entirely dominated by a white male ruling class. 46 
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AJ: So youre clear on that.   2 
 3 
PO: I am totally clear on that.  But, Im also very much aware of the huge migration of wealth in this 4 country.  People hear about the 1%, people are starting to believe in the 1%.  OK, this 5 realistically is the white ruling class  white male ruling class.  Obviously the primary 6 beneficiaries of that have been the white middle class and, to a larger extent, the white male 7 middle class.  But if I look at the evolution of our culture from World War II, OK, we had this 8 ideal of the housewife and the man was the provider  and its not a bad social model, 9 OK.  Theres a lot of obvious economic reasons why that doesnt work  and theyre economic 10 reasons, right?  I certainly would have been happy with that, thats what I wanted to be was the 11 housewife  that woman of the 1950s, those styles of the 1950s.  I loved it all.  I wanted 12 children, I love my children  I love children.  If Id have had a man to provide for me I would 13 have been perfectly happy with that.  But, that breaks down over time especially after the 14 children are grown and now it becomes exclusively an economic issue.  And so, socially, in terms 15 of social policy, we have failed in understanding how to distribute wealth.  And so, yeah, white 16 males still have the greatest opportunity in terms of establishing economic wealth but it avoids 17 the real issue of how do we sustain the social values of our culture.  Who takes care of the 18 children?  Who takes care of the sick people?  Who organizes our community events?  Woman 19 have traditionally done all those roles.  OK, now were saying, We dont really need that stuff.  20 Women can now get into science and technology and engineering and they can have the same 21 opportunities as men.  Thats only half the equation, thats the economic half of the equation.  22 But what about the social half of the equation?  We need somebody taking care of society.  We 23 need somebody filling that role that has traditionally been filled by women and traditionally on a 24 volunteer basis.  Now were saying OK we can do that on an economic basis, but those skills, 25 those roles still have no value.  Childcare workers, they make virtually nothing.  Even nurses and 26 teachers dont make nearly what . . .  27 
 28 
AJ: Professional athletes. 29 
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PO: Professional athletes or . . .  31 
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AJ: IT professionals. 33 
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PO: IT professionals, developers . . . 35 
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AJ: Judges. 37 
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PO: Upper management, CEOs.  Were valuing those things, that those things have a greater 39 economic value to our culture than a culture.  And to me, that is the disconnect, not that white 40 males have more opportunity.  OK, yeah, thats obvious.  But the fact that were focusing on that 41 and were making it an economic issue and were saying that we need to give women more 42 economic value  its like no, we need to start valuing what women do and make it attractive to 43 males as well.  Theres men that want to be in the health care professions and the caring 44 professions and the helping professions, they want to be parents perhaps  full-time dads, but 45 we make that unattractive.  We say, Thats womens work, that used to be womens work.  Its 1 like, Well, womens work is pretty damn important and its time we start recognizing that.   2 
 3 
AJ: I agree.  You mentioned a little earlier . . . 4 
 5 
PO: Have I convinced you at all, Andrea?   6 
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AJ: This interview is about you, Paula, its not about me.   8 
 9 
PO: You did challenge me in terms of the privilege of white males. 10 
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AJ: Right.  Well . . . we can have this debate at another time.  But, tell me, you mentioned earlier 12 that youre a politician and youre talking about these sort of social policy issues.  Have you been 13 elected to political office? 14 
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PO: Ive not held a political office. 16 
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AJ: Have you sought political office?  And if so, tell me about that. 18 
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PO: I ran for US Congress in the 2nd District, thats where I live.  Thats kind of the area south of the 20 Twin Cities, out toward Red Wing  almost to Rochester. 21 
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AJ: How did that go? 23 
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PO: I think it went really well. 25 
 26 
AJ: What year did you run?   27 
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PO: 2014. 29 
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AJ: 2014. 31 
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PO: We ran against John Klein, he was the incumbent.  Mike Obermueller was the DFL candidate.  I 33 initially ran for the DFL endorsement.  And in large part I separated with the DFL over a lot of 34 these issues of gender equity, racial equality.  I did outreach and inclusion for the DFL for two 35 years, I saw no real serious commitment to it.  And so, our campaign slogan, of course, is that 36 the power of a great campaign is in the message we create and the impact that we have on our 37 culture.   38 
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AJ: Thats what you had on your sign? 40 
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PO: Thats what we have on our webpage.   42 
 43 
AJ: Thats a long message for people to remember.   44 
 45 
PO: Its a long message  the short message is take the money out of politics and put the people 1 back in.  2 
 3 
AJ: There you go.   4 
 5 
PO: And thats what I was saying earlier in terms of whats grass roots movements versus 6 institutionalized social agencies  a huge difference in what they fight for and what they can 7 achieve.  It was, I think, a very successful campaign.  Of course it was my first, our first for those 8 people that were engaged and assisted me with that.  We learned a lot.  I think were definitely 9 going to do it again. 10 
 11 
AJ: Youre going to run again . . . in 2016? 12 
 13 
PO: 2016, yes. 14 
 15 
AJ: For the same seat? 16 
 17 
PO: For the same seat, yes.  It is, in large part, about building a movement.  Its about social change.  18 Id be the first one to say that its handy to have an alpha male around when you want to move 19 furniture but I looked at the Republican campaign  youre talking about the white male ruling 20 class.   21 
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AJ: You talked about that, I didnt bring it up. 23 
 24 
PO: Well you did challenge me, you said that . . . you talked about white privilege.  But anyway, to 25 see those 10 white, pretty obvious . . .  26 
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AJ: I think its more like 15.   28 
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PO: There were 16 altogether but they only . . . they showed six and then they did 10, it was two 30 separate events.  It was like a reality TV show, it was a circus, which is the nature of our politics 31 today.  Its a media circus.  You know, 10 alpha males on stage talking about war and building 32 fences around Mexico, these are their solutions.  Theyre not talking about social issues and 33 social solutions.  Theyre not talking about the inequality of wealth and how do we create equity 34 in this country.  Theyre talking about wealth and power and how to empower themselves, 35 theyre creating fear  the war on terrorism, the war on drugs, the war on immigration. 36 
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AJ: Lots of wars. 38 
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PO: Lots of wars, yeah  and its a war on our own people.  Who is giving us any other message?   40 
 41 
AJ: I applaud your willingness to step forward and represent this community and I think, even more 42 broadly, being willing to represent the transgender community by stepping up and stepping 43 forward.  Its commendable and I wish you good luck.   44 
 45 
PO: Andrea, I appreciate all that youve done as well.   46 
 1 
AJ: I wish you good luck on your future campaign.   2 
 3 
PO: You have been a model of leadership for the transgender community in the Twin Cities area for 4 a long time.  I appreciate that.  I appreciate your knowledge and your background on racial 5 issues and I definitely believe that, more than anything, that the transgender movement needs 6 to be multifaceted.   7 
 8 
AJ: I will say that my goals are very similar to yours in that I believe that the transgender movement 9 is a much broader movement for moving humanity forward.  So were on the same team.  What 10 do you think the relationship is between the L, the G, and then the T?  Should that all be 11 together?  Theres new campaign out, youre online a lot, theres this new campaign that was 12 started by a gay white man to drop the T from the LGBT.  What do you think about that? 13 
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PO: I think its a good plan.   15 
 16 
AJ: OK. 17 
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PO: And a lot of it has to do, not with so much the issues of sexuality and gender, but the issues of 19 politics and social activism and actual reform.  The GLBT movement is kind of marked, the 20 beginning was kind of marked, with the Stonewall riots in New York.  That was a grass roots 21 activist movement.  The trans people prefer to start with the Compton riots out in Colorado. 22 
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AJ: California. 24 
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PO: Where was that?  Was it California?   26 
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AJ: Compton. 28 
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PO: Yeah, Compton was in California  sorry.  But whatever, the transgender people have always 30 been intimately associated with the gay, lesbian community because it was a subculture that 31 was forced into being a subculture by the sexual persecution of the middle class, the ruling class.  32 But as time goes on, the gay rights movement, in my opinion, has become essentially a white 33 male, middle class socialized institution.  I look at . . . I look at groups like OutFront, theyre our 34 premier GLBT representation in this state, I see very little representation for transgender 35 people.  I see . . . I feel like everybody wants to coop the transgender movement today because 36 it has so much visibility.  I feel like a lot of us have really been kind of forced into the spotlight 37 rather than wanting all that public attention, but its here and were here and its time to move 38 on.  And so I really do believe . . . Im a firm advocate of a separate transgender rights 39 organization here in Minnesota.  Nationally we do have the National Center for Transgender 40 Equality, to me its about the only organization that really focuses on transgender issues and I 41 do believe that transgender issues are completely separate from issues of sexuality. 42 
 43 
AJ: Absolutely.   44 
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PO: And if you look at the gay, lesbian community, even in the arena of strictly sexuality, the 1 bisexual community is not well represented or supported. 2 
 3 
AJ: Agreed. 4 
 5 
PO: So its like the gay white men and then the lesbian women and then the bisexuals and then the 6 transgender people, thats kind of how I see it in terms of separation.  We are much more 7 closely aligned with the bisexuals, I would say, than with the gay men.  So, I think . . . yeah, I 8 think the gay rights movement has become institutionalized.  I see it as primarily an upper 9 white, middle class, male movement now.  I dont see that theyre fighting for any kind of social 10 justice really, theyre fighting for their own privilege.  Theyre fighting for gay marriage, they 11 actually . . . theyre fighting for legal protections which works against us.   12 
 13 
AJ: How so? 14 
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PO: Well because . . . take it back again to the Stonewall riots.  What were they rebelling against?  16 Police persecution, OK.  What are we rebelling against today?  Police persecution.  They provide 17 the mechanism for social persecution and were not . . . but were seeking protections from a 18 system thats persecuting us.  So if youre a wealthy white, middle class male then you benefit 19 from that.  If youre a poor transgender person, then you are being persecuted by that system, 20 right?   21 
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AJ: OK.  Wow.   23 
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PO: We need our own organization and then just in terms of movement, the transgender 25 movement, I was talking about the separate issues of gender and sexuality, in terms of 26 movement, its even more important for the transgender community to be separated from the 27 gay, lesbian movement. 28 
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AJ: Whats the transgender agenda?  What do you think it should be?  If we step out on our own, 30 we create our own organization, what should we be fighting for or advocating for? 31 
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PO: Social equity for everyone.  I think the transgender community can kind of coalesce around our 33 unique . . . the issue of gender, and expand that to all issues of discrimination and social 34 injustice.  I dont think that we need to have . . . I think transgender can be . . . the transgender 35 movement can be the focus of that rather than all of these groups battling for social justice that 36 are trying to coop the transgender movement.   37 
 38 
AJ: Wow. 39 
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PO: As are the gay white folks.   41 
 42 
AJ: Have you ever worked in an LGBT organization or transgender-specific organization as a 43 volunteer or as a staff person?   44 
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PO: I have not, no.  Well I did work on a project with Day One, with Cornerstone.  I dont know if 1 youre familiar with them. 2 
 3 
AJ: Cornerstone is a . . . 4 
 5 
PO: Its actually a womens advocacy group for . . .  6 
 7 
AJ: Domestic violence. 8 
 9 
PO: Exactly, domestic violence services over in Bloomington, and worked on a study called Opening 10 the Door.  It was all about improving access to domestic violence services for GLBT people.  11 Ultimately I dont think we achieved too much, unfortunately. 12 
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AJ: I know some shelters are now . . . womens shelters are now allowing trans-identified women to 14 be a part of their services. 15 
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PO: There are some, yes.  And, in part . . . the real big problem for transgender is not so much 17 people like me that transition, changed my sex and live as a woman, a lot of us  people like me, 18 we just integrate into society and we live our lives quietly, were not activists, we dont want to 19 be activists  we dont want all that drama in our lives, right.  20 
 21 
AJ: Right, and thats fine too.   22 
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PO: And thats fine, everybody has that right.  Some of us just need that peace and quiet in our lives, 24 maybe for once in our life.  But, the real challenge for the gender movement is the gender 25 queer.  People who arent strongly identifying as either gender  where do they go for services?   26 
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AJ: Sure, thats a challenge.   28 
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PO: Its a bold step to say that well take a transgender woman in our womens shelter.  But, it does 30 identify the fundamental problem with delivering services based exclusively on gender.  The 31 idea that sexual violence and domestic abuse is something that men do to women has become 32 so tightly engrained in our cultural thinking that we cant get past it  and its not real.  There are 33 plenty of men that are being abused and the more we separate the idea of domestic violence 34 and domestic abuse from the actual physical violence, the more ambiguous it becomes.  So I 35 dont doubt, I dont disagree with the statistics and the reality of the fact that men are typically 36 bigger and stronger and more aggressive, and women endure most of the injuries.  But when 37 you move up that scale and start talking about emotional maltreatment, emotional abuse, its a 38 lot more balanced.  And, I think that dealing with violence, that weve melded those together 39 and made it an issue of violence when really its not and its destroying families, its destroying 40 the family fabric in this culture.  Its driving increased criminalization and poverty and all of 41 those social issues.  We need better ways of evaluating violence and thats partly what the Open 42 Door Project was about.  Its like we need better tools, we cant just assume that one . . . its 43 more obvious when you have two parties from the same gender, right?  Its like, OK, now how 44 do you pick the abuser?  You cant just automatically assume that one is the abuser because of 45 their gender.  And so that kind of emphasizes the reality of heterosexual relationships as well  46 you cant just pick one because of their gender and assign them as the abuser, its not realistic.  1 It doesnt matter . . . you cant just say, Statistically, well, more often its the woman thats 2 going to be abused so were going to assign the male as the abuser.  We need better models of 3 domestic abuse, we need better models of assessment, we need better models of treatment.  4 And more importantly, we need better models of prevention.   5 
 6 
AJ: Wow, this has been a fascinating discussion, Paula, and I really appreciate you taking the time to 7 sit down with us and share some really personal and intimate details about your life and your 8 journey as a transgender woman.  Is there anything else you want to share about this interview? 9 
 10 
PO: Oh, yes, theres so much I want to share.  I talk too much. 11 
 12 
AJ: Tell me about . . . one thing I didnt ask you, and I would be remiss if you didnt have an 13 opportunity to talk about love and relationships.  Are you in a relationship at this moment?  Do 14 you desire a relationship?  And then, what is your sexual orientation?  You talked a lot about the 15 separation of gender identity and sexual orientation, whats your own personal sexual 16 orientation?   17 
 18 
PO: Well I talked about the gay man phase.  I guess . . . Im a female, I see myself as heterosexual 19 and in all the technical terminology, I like men.  Ive always liked men. 20 
 21 
AJ: But you were married to a woman for 28 years.   22 
 23 
PO: I was married to a woman, and thats why I said I assumed that male role so I could have the 24 kind of traditional family that I wanted or that I thought I wanted. 25 
 26 
AJ: So during that time you saw yourself as a woman so you were in a lesbian relationship?   27 
 28 
PO: When I look at our relationship now, I do see it as . . . I dont know a lot of lesbians but I would 29 say that my relationship with my spouse was really very  much of a lesbian relationship that 30 neither one of us really wanted.  I wasnt the man she wanted, clearly, but she wasnt the man I 31 wanted either.   32 
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AJ: Thats a good one, I like that line.   34 
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PO: Sex was always difficult.  I guess . . . people will disagree with me, of course, but I think of more 36 of the touching, intimacy part of sex as more feminine or female and if youve been on both 37 hormones you know why that is.  But as far as my relationships today, Im not involved in a 38 relationship.  After the divorce . . . I mean the divorce was so ugly I didnt even want to think 39 about another relationship for quite a few years.  After kind of the transition it was the . . . kind 40 of the fear of, I guess, sexual exploitation, this idea of the tranny chasers and the men that want 41 chicks with dicks or whatever that whole sexual fetishy-kind of image.  I was afraid of that.  And 42 its like I dont . . . why would I want a man that wants someone like me?  That self-effication . . . 43 whatever. 44 
 45 
AJ: Deprecation, I think is the word you might be looking for  self-deprecation.   46 
 1 
PO: Yeah.  And so, there were a couple men that I wish I had dated, but I was kind of fearful of all 2 that  fetishes and . . . and now, Im not actively seeking a relationship.  Im pretty comfortable 3 with myself, Im pretty . . . I have a lot of friends and relationships and activities that keep me 4 engaged.  It would be nice.  Id like to find a man, if theres any good men out there that are 5 watching this and they think Im attractive, then . . .  6 
 7 
AJ: 867-5309!   8 
 9 
PO: Thats right.  So I guess I now identify as heterosexual.  Im sure Ive been in all of those roles at 10 one point or another, or at least tried them out. 11 
 12 
AJ: Our lives are so fascinating.   13 
 14 
PO: And thats, I guess, one of the positive things.  I love being transgender.  To me its an awareness 15 that goes beyond most peoples understanding of gender and sexuality, even human 16 relationships in general.  I worked a long time on the marriage equity campaign, I did a lot of 17 faith outreach.  I know when I talked to women, and women got it probably more than men did.  18 Men are so isolated from their sexuality and feelings, thats kind of the repressive nature of our 19 culture too.  But when Id talk to women Id say, Well, youre heterosexual, youre attracted to 20 men, right?  But youre not attracted to all men, OK?  So thats your sexuality.  This is some set 21 of characteristics that youre attracted to and for you its always male characteristics, but its not 22 all men.  And so sexuality, gender and sexuality, is all infinitely more complex than we try to 23 make it out to be  oh, just theres men and women, pick one from this side and pick one from 24 that side, put them together in a house and theyll have a happy marriage.  We all know that 25 doesnt work.  What, 50% divorce rate in this country.   26 
 27 
AJ: Wow, thank you so much, Paula.  Its been a joy. 28 
 29 
PO: Thank you.  I definitely appreciate you including me in this project.  Im looking forward to 30 seeing some of the results.   31 
 32 
AJ: Awesome. 33 

