 
 
 
 
Oliver Schminkey Narrator   Andrea Jenkins Interviewer 
 
 
 
 
 
The Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies University of Minnesota 
August 18, 2015 
 
 
 
 
 

  
  
 
The Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story, while providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source material about the transgender community.  The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for current and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public. 
The Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300 individuals over the next three years.  Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and experiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality.  This project will be led by Andrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist.  Andrea brings years of experience working in government, non-profits and LGBT organizations.  If you are interested in being involved in this exciting project, please contact Andrea. 
Andrea Jenkins jenki120@umn.edu (612) 625-4379 
 
 
 
 
  
Andrea Jenkins  -AJ 1 
Oliver Schminkey -OS 2 
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AJ:  Hello, my name is Andrea Jenkins.  This is the Transgender Oral History Project and Im the oral 5 historian.  Today is August 18th and I am here with Oliver Schminkey.  Would you please state 6 your name, and maybe spell it because I think it might be hard for my transcriber to know the 7 exact spelling, your preferred pronouns, your gender identity, and your gender assigned at 8 birth? 9 
OS: Im Oliver Schminkey, thats S-c-h-m-i-n-k-e-y for Schminkey.  Ive already forgotten the other 10 questions.   11 
AJ: Your preferred pronouns. 12 
OS: My pronouns are they, them, their.  My gender identity is non-binary transgender, sometimes I 13 use words like gender queer.  I was assigned female at birth. 14 
AJ: Great, thank you.  So Oliver, can you please tell me what is your earliest memory? 15 
OS: My earliest memory, I think, is when I was about three or four years old, me and my best friend, 16 his name was Jacob, this was back when my parents still lived in East Bethel.  We painted these 17 little tiny rocks and put google eyes on them and confetti and stuff, and my dad yelled at us 18 because we were smashing them all over the wooden handles on the couches.  So I think thats 19 probably one of my earliest memories. 20 
AJ: How old do you think you were? 21 
OS: Three or four maybe.   22 
AJ: OK.  Great, thats funny.  Tell me about where you went to elementary school. 23 
OS: I went to elementary school in Pine City, Minnesota, which is just a small little shit town like an 24 hour and a half north of here.  Public school, small town  a small town with not a ton of 25 resources.  I dont know . . . yeah. 26 
AJ: Were you a popular kid, were you sort of a bookish kid?  How would you describe yourself in 27 elementary school?   28 
OS: I was a very nerdy kid.  I was always a weird kid  I was such a weird kid.  And I know that 29 everybody says that they were a weird kid but I feel like I was exceptionally weird.  I was a very 30 emotional child who grew up to be a very emotional teenager and a very emotional adult.  31 There is just a lot of . . . I dont know what the medical diagnosis would be or anything, but Ive 32 always had a lot of weird brain shit and I think that that even started for me in elementary 33 school.  I read a lot of books, I studied a lot.  In 5th grade I was the fastest reader in our entire 34 class.  Yeah.  I liked to play in the dirt a lot.  Thats the kind of kid I was. 35 
AJ: Cool.  What was your home environment like?  Your parents?  Your siblings, if you had any? 36 
OS: Well, I have one sister, shes two years older than me.  My parents, without disclosing too much 1 I guess, my dad has been unemployed as long as I can remember; my mom is an elementary 2 school teacher  she teaches 3rd grade.  Shes the sole income of our family.  Ever since I can 3 remember my dad has been an alcoholic, obviously stressful for families, especially because he 4 wasnt bringing in an income.  My mom has always had . . . she has a seizure disorder and so 5 shes always had health issues.  Now more recently my dad has developed congestive heart 6 failure so he has a lot of severe health issues.  Health issues have always been a thing in my 7 family alongside with just a lot of emotional stress and dealing with all of that  not to mention 8 just growing up with two teenagers sometimes I feel like can be hard enough.  Me and my sister 9 were never super close, were flat opposites in pretty much everything.  Religious household, 10 my mother is very, very Catholic, my dad is the kind of guy who reads the Bible but doesnt go to 11 church because he doesnt need to go to church to know God  that kind of person.  So that was 12 my family environment.  Very Catholic  I was very Catholic for a long time and then now Im a 13 very staunch atheist.   14 
AJ: Really? 15 
OS: Yeah. 16 
AJ: When did that shift happen?   17 
OS: I think it happened . . . it started happening after I was in a really sexually and emotionally 18 abusive relationship in high school, I think.  It started happening after that, and I think that really 19 got solidified once I came to college.  Just being around like-minded individuals  a lot of whom 20 are also atheists, but just seeing people living happy and fulfilled lives without a religious center 21 that I just was never taught was possible.   22 
AJ: OK.  Do you have any sort of spiritual or meditative practices now in your life?   23 
OS: For the most part, no.  I dont believe in souls or heaven or hell or God.  I do believe in sending 24 good vibes, I believe in feeling out energies in a room and giving off positive energy and things 25 like that.  I dont really do many things . . . I feel like the closest thing to church for me is doing 26 poetry and/or hanging out in rooms with lots of trans people because I feel like thats the . . . 27 thats where I get my family/God vibes.  28 
AJ: Thats great.  When was the first time that you realized that you were not the gender you were 29 assigned at birth?  Or that something was different about your gender versus how most people 30 born in the gender that you were assigned at birth feel?   31 
OS: I think that I didnt figure it out for a long time, which I feel like is not a story that most people 32 get to hear.  I feel like most of the trans people that Ive talked to are like, I was sure from the 33 time I was four, and that was definitely not the case with me.  I remember once when I was in 34 kindergarten we were coloring in these little cutouts and one had a dress shape for all the girls 35 and one was just a regular stick figure for the boys and we had to color these in.  I asked my 36 mom, Really?  Is that it?  Are there only boys and girls?  Are you sure?  And, of course, she told 37 me yes and that kind of went away for a while.  I was always somewhat gender non-conforming 38 presentation-wise throughout high school and I think I was allowed to do that also because I 39 was a goth kid and I feel like the gender roles in alternative fashion are a little bit less strictly 40 
defined.  I think the first time that I knew for sure that I was non-binary was my first year of 1 college or right before I went to college.   2 
AJ: So youre in college now, youre about to graduate. 3 
OS: Yes, last year.   4 
AJ: Last year, 2016.  So you started college when? 5 
OS: I started college in 2012.   6 
AJ: What made you decide to go to Macalester? 7 
OS: Well, I didnt get into Yale first off.  Secondly, Im the type of person who has spread sheets, I 8 had an Excel spreadsheet of all of the different colleges I had checked out and all of their pros 9 and cons and at the end of the day, I showed up to Macalester and the vibes felt right and they 10 offered me the most money and so I ended up here. 11 
AJ: Thats great.  So great.  Have you had any challenges since you began to express your truest 12 gender identity, which is non-binary?   13 
OS: Many challenges.  Yes, I mean like everything from my parents and my family to transphobic 14 professors to trying to get jobs to dating people who just dont understand things to walking 15 down the street  just simply people mis-gendering me when Im getting breakfast at a caf.  16 There have been a million challenges.  I feel lucky that I get to bypass a lot of challenges that I 17 feel like a lot of other trans people face, especially because I am college educated, I am white, 18 my parents didnt kick me out.  I come from a fairly middle class background.  So I feel like 19 theres a lot of stuff I did get to bypass even though there is a lot of shit I still have to deal with. 20 
AJ: Do you have sort of a story of a professor that really created problems for you? 21 
OS: Yeah.  I mean, like, I go to Macalester, which is one of . . . I would argue possibly the most liberal 22 college in Minnesota and one of the most liberal colleges in the United States.  And Ive worked 23 with administration to do a ton of activism on campus from bathrooms to education work.  And 24 so, some of my professors dont even know how to use gender neutral pronouns, but one 25 professor in particular, I was taking a Womens Health and Reproduction class, and I sat down 26 with my professor on the first day of class and I said, Is this class going to be only about cis 27 women?  If you want to talk about womens reproduction go ahead, but if youre not talking 28 about trans women when youre talking about womens reproduction, youre doing it wrong.  29 And if youre not recognizing that there are a ton of people who have the anatomy that youre 30 talking about that arent women . . .  And I was talking with her about trans inclusion and 31 intersex inclusion and she just fought me every step of the way.  We just had many, many 32 uncomfortable conversations, one of which ended up just me being in her office, at one point 33 she asked me why I was trans.  Almost every day after her class I would just go to my partner 34 and be just like, Natalie, this is so awful.  And she would just hold me and sometimes I would 35 have to cry.  It was just a really bad time.  I think it was just something about microaggressions 36 adding up and erasure and invisibility adding up to the point where it was just a really toxic 37 environment to be in.  Yeah, that was terrible. 38 
AJ: Well thats great . . . I mean, that youre sharing that, not that that happened to you.  Thank you.  1 What have been some of the more positive aspects of your current gender expression? 2 
OS: Oh, there have also been so many positives, Im so glad that we can talk about the positives.  I 3 feel like, especially growing up in Pine City, I didnt feel like I had a really super strong center of 4 like-minded individuals or people who are like me.  I felt really alone.  I didnt meet a single 5 transgender person that I knew of until I was 20, until I went to college . . . so maybe 18.  I just 6 didnt know that trans could exist.  And now, because Im trans and because I finally have access 7 to this community of people, I feel like I have a shared history and a group of people who are 8 supportive despite our differences, because, of course . . . no homogenous group.  But Ive 9 gotten to do things through my poetry and through my identity  like just last February, I was 10 invited to speak and do poetry at a conference with Miss Major.   11 
AJ: Wow. 12 
OS: We got in the same car off the airplane and just hung out on the ride over.  It was just like one of 13 those things where Im like, Oh my God.  Do other people get to meet their idols?  Do other 14 people get to do this?   15 
AJ: Thats incredible. 16 
OS: Yeah, so I feel like stuff like that that just would not have been possible, I just feel like theres 17 such a power and a fierceness and a resilience that I can find in community with other trans 18 people that I think is just phenomenal.   19 
AJ: Wow, I love Miss Major.   20 
OS: I do too.   21 
AJ: Ive met her a few times and she is this iconic hero to me.  Kudos.  Whats your current 22 relationship with your birth family?   23 
OS: Its OK.  I feel like its complicated because . . . so my dad has congestive heart failure and so his 24 heart only functions at about 10%.  He was diagnosed maybe a year or two ago and they told 25 him that he would need a heart transplant in order to survive.  He said, Fuck no.  And 26 somehow hes still alive.  I dont know how, but hes still eking it out.  That is really tremulous, 27 especially because my mom . . . I dont know, my mom still has clots in her brain, right?  And so 28 she could theoretically have a brain aneurysm anytime.  So living with parents that not only 29 dont exactly share my views, but are also quite ill in pretty serious ways, I feel like it makes it 30 really hard to have a lot of conversations that I want to have, especially because I feel like . . . 31 like my mom especially, she knows that Im trans and she does try, I think its just such a 32 different world view for her especially because she still lives in a small town.  And its difficult 33 because when she gets really stressed out, she has to take medicine or shell have seizures.  So 34 doing the work to really feel like Im connected to my birth family is really hard because then I 35 feel like Im killing my parents and that is not a thing I want to do.  I dont know.  Things with my 36 sister are all right.  She tries very hard and shes a pretty good advocate to try to smooth out 37 things when I do try to talk to my parents.   38 
AJ: Thats helpful. 39 
OS: Yeah, Ive at least got one on my side.   1 
AJ: Do you have a chosen family that you relate to? 2 
OS: I do, I do.  I found a lot of my chosen family through theatre and actually through The Naked I.  3 And also through college, Im also a community organizer.  I run a bunch of different things and I 4 feel like mostly through art.  There are just . . . like I feel like I have a network of people where 5 like even for practical stuff, like if my parents happen to disown me, which they havent yet  6 yay, Ill count that as a plus!  There are people of even like different generations than I am that 7 would help me move or who have the financial stability and will help me co-sign on loans if I 8 needed that.  I feel really lucky that somehow I have access to an intergenerational support 9 system in which to have those connections. 10 
AJ: Thats cool.  So, you mentioned The Naked I.  What is that?  Tell me about it. 11 
OS: So, The Naked I is this awesome show put on by 20% Theatre Company thats just like a 12 collection of transgender, non-conforming, queer people telling our stories.  This summer I 13 actually got to be an intern for 20% and The Naked I show.  So basically, a bunch of queer and 14 trans people get together and put on this kick-ass two and a half hour long show, all written by 15 us, for us.   16 
AJ: Awesome.  And how long has that been going on, do you know? 17 
OS: The first Naked I was six years ago, I think were in the fourth installment.  Yeah, the first one I 18 participated in was the last one, which was two years ago.  And fingers crossed, Ill be in the 19 next one.   20 
AJ: Well good luck.   21 
OS: Yeah, thank you. 22 
AJ: To the extent that youre comfortable, please tell me about any sort of medical interventions 23 you have undergone to help you feel more comfortable in your gender expression. 24 
OS: Well, right now I am at the point where I do not have the necessary funding . . . eventually I do 25 want to get top surgery and maybe start a low dose of testosterone, but Im not completely firm 26 on that yet.  But, I mean . . . the process, to me right now, seems really daunting of first I have to 27 have the time and money to go to therapy so that a therapist can sign off on my surgery.  And 28 then I have to have approximately $8000 and be able to fly to Florida to get top surgery and be 29 able to take time off work or school or whatever Im doing.  Right now, it is just not financially 30 possible for me to take any of those steps.  And so, thats just kind of where Im stuck.   31 
AJ: But that doesnt appear to have changed your identity, who you feel that you are?   32 
OS: No, not really.  I think that in my relationship with my body - that has been very complicated.  I 33 feel like, for me, gender is very much so internal and there are different things about myself that 34 I want to change  mostly just for the sake of navigating through the world because having 35 people see me somewhat as who I actually am would be very affirming.  But things that Ive 36 actually done, I stopped shaving  that was a great choice.  My wardrobe underwent a little bit 37 of a flip.  I still have a lot of feminine clothing that I do wear a lot but I had to kind of do a purge 38 and then a re-build, which included digging in a lot of thrift stores because revamping your 1 wardrobe is expensive. 2 
AJ: Yes.  What prompted the purge?   3 
OS: I feel like right at the beginning after I came out  I mean, first I came out to myself and then . . .  4 
AJ: Which is important. 5 
OS: Yeah, it was really difficult.  So after I came out to myself and I started coming out to other 6 people, I feel like I finally learned that  oh, you can go into the mens section of H&M and pick 7 out whatever you want, you can literally wear whatever you want  you dont have to wear 8 clothes that are gendered a specific way and you dont have to gender your body a specific way.  9 I feel like then I was like, OK, if Im not going to be able to get people to recognize me as a non-10 binary person, maybe someone somewhere will at least think Im not a woman.  So trying to 11 settle for this next best thing never really worked out for me.  I think Ive been called sir 12 exactly once, but, for a while, then I at least felt like it wasnt my fault if people mis-gendered 13 me because it was like, Hey, Im trying.  And I feel like what ended up happening is that I 14 ultimately sacrificed a lot of femininity that I actually loved and that is actually a really important 15 part of who I am as a person.  And now I feel like I finally have a solid enough core and a solid 16 enough support system where I can allow that femininity to come back.  And thats exciting. 17 
AJ: Thats awesome.   18 
OS: Thank you. 19 
AJ: Thats very exciting.  Has there been a specific moment or person or some organization that has 20 had a significant impact on you related to your gender identity?  I know that you mentioned 21 Miss Major but are there others? 22 
OS: Yes. 23 
AJ: Or what was the impact Miss Major had on you?  Or maybe you should say who Miss Major is.  I 24 know, but someone watching this videotape or reading these transcripts, they may not know 25 about Miss Major. 26 
OS: OK.  Miss Major is so cool.  For an official bio Id say check the internet.   27 
AJ: But who is she to you? 28 
OS: To me, Miss Major is . . . shes just one of . . . Im just so in awe.  Shes a trans woman of color 29 who has done so much radical, important activist work and just meeting her, even though she 30 wasnt centering her work on white non-binary trans kids.  But shes still part of the reason that I 31 have access to a lot of different resources, especially because we were talking and she was 32 telling me about how when she was in high school there werent trans support groups, there 33 werent any of those things.  I restarted the Trans Identity Collective at my college and so Im 34 like, Shit, shes done so much work to be able to get to this point where Im even allowed to be 35 pissed off about my professors not completely listening to me about trans stuff because I didnt 36 get kicked out of school.  So as a person and as the legacy of Miss Major, I just feel like she has 37 done so much work that I am so grateful for.  I dont know.  So it was really cool to meet Miss 38 Major.  I met her in February and so I feel like a lot of my personal gender stuff happened before 1 then  and Im still learning and still growing constantly.  I feel like mostly I have just learned the 2 most and changed the most from interacting with my trans friends and people that Ive dated  3 especially trans people that Ive dated, and especially all of the trans women in my life who have 4 put up with all of my learning process bullshit, especially because I feel like a lot of the resources 5 I had access to early on were about trans masculine folks and I come from small town 6 Minnesota, I had a lot of unlearning to do, I had a lot of internalized transphobia and trans 7 misogyny and theres still a lot of stuff that Im unlearning because I feel like Im never done 8 unlearning.   I feel like there were a lot of people who had enough patience and grace to sit 9 down with me, take my intentions as good, and work through it.  I dont know if that answered 10 the question or not.   11 
AJ: Oh, it was great.  What is trans misogyny?   12 
OS: Trans misogyny is the hatred and violence toward trans women specifically.  So like this really 13 awful intersection between misogyny and transphobia that is just very, very violent.  I feel like 14 90% of the time in media and news and stuff, when there is transphobia it is actually trans 15 misogyny also.   16 
AJ: Hmm.  Tell me a little bit about romance, relationships, and love and how might that have been 17 impacted by your gender expression? 18 
OS: So all throughout high school I dated a bunch of cis gender dudes, back when I thought I was cis 19 and straight, of course, because there were no other options for me.  I dated a lot of cis dudes 20 who were not very good to me, I was in a lot of abusive relationships.  And then I got to college 21 and I started becoming part of the queer community and I learned a lot about consent and 22 having good relationships. Now I am polyamorous, Ive been polyamorous for about three years 23 now, so Ive dated a lot of people.  Most of the people I date are trans  theres just a lot less to 24 explain and its just so much easier to date trans people and I love being polyamorous, I love it.  25 Its my favorite, its the perfect thing for me.   26 
AJ: So how does polyamory work in your life?  Is it . . . you have one sort of specific partner and you 27 guys have people join into your relationship?  Or are you in multiple relationships that all are 28 sort of at the same level?   29 
OS: Yeah, so polyamory, for me, has looked many different ways just because of opportunities and 30 sometimes you meet someone you like and sometimes you meet five people that you like, and 31 sometimes you cry alone in your dorm room.  So thats kind of a change for me.  I dont consider 32 myself having like a primary relationship.  I dont rank my relationships, I dont rank any of my 33 relationships though.  I define relationship as any interaction between two human beings and 34 whatever that happens to be is whatever it happens to be, especially when . . . because I also 35 date a lot of people who have like a million different sexual and romantic orientations.  And 36 especially dating asexual folks or other folks who dont want to have sex and are not necessarily 37 interested in typical displays of affection or romance.  I also come back to the question, What 38 actually is dating?  I consider that Im dating someone when we sit down and say, Hey, do you 39 want to call this dating now?  And then we call it dating if we want to call it dating.  So all of 40 those relationships are so different.  Right now Im dating a cis woman, who is lovely, who Ive 41 been dating for a year and a half, and then I just met some folks in Oakland last weekend.  Its 1 just all over the place, but I feel like having those relationships and being able to be intimate 2 with people on such a personal level has done wonders for my personal growth and feeling a 3 sense of community, and even just feeling attractive in this body that Im often at odds with, I 4 feel like is really, really important to me.   5 
AJ: So what was happening in Oakland?  Tell me about that. 6 
OS: Oakland.  Well, I was at the National Poetry Competition and in terms of romance, there is one 7 of my partners, question mark?  She lives in Oakland, I got to see her again, thought it was really 8 great.  I hosted a transgender open mic . . .  9 
AJ: Wow.  Nice. 10 
OS: I met a lot of really cool people, and, of course, we were the coolest people in the entire 11 tournament.  Theres nothing like being in a room of trans people and being like, Hey, yall, can 12 we just yell, Fuck cis sexism, at the same time?  And we did and it was so beautiful.  So thats 13 what was happening in Oakland.  I dont know, was that specific enough? 14 
AJ: Oh yeah, that was great.  So youre a poet and a writer and a spoken word artist.   15 
OS: Yeah. 16 
AJ: Do you want to say anything about the kind of work that you create? 17 
OS: Sure.  I create a lot of . . . how to describe my work?  Im pretty politically radical, I write a lot of 18 very intense work especially about trauma in my life and about oppressions that I face.  Right 19 now for my honors project, Im actually working on a book on the intersection between being a 20 non-binary trans person and a sexual assault survivor.  Especially because sexual assault is so 21 prevalent among transgender people, or against transgender people, and I have just . . . I have 22 never read that book and so Im going to write the book.  I do slam poetry so I do a lot of yelling 23  a lot of intense yelling, a lot of passionate yelling.  Slam is an interesting space to be trans 24 though because we are not the majority by any stretch and so often I am the only trans person 25 who gets on the stage in a slam.  I feel really lucky because my arts and trans communities 26 happen to overlap a lot so I do have a lot of trans friends who are also really into spoken word 27 and slam poetry, which is really great  just to be able to have a gripe session, even at the end of 28 the slam to be like, Wow, we were the only two trans people here, that was shitty.  But I feel 29 like ultimately poetry has been a fantastic tool and a very necessary thing in my life, especially 30 because it has . . . it can reach in ways that I feel like academia doesnt reach.  I just remember 31 watching Andrea Gibsons poems and just like to have that little bit of spark, little bit of 32 something to grab on to, to be like, Wow, even though I grew up in Pine City feeling really 33 alone, Im not alone.   34 
AJ: Yeah.  Who is Andrea Gibson? 35 
OS: Andrea Gibson is a super-rad poet.  I think Andrea goes by they, them now, I dont know.  They 36 were just like the first poet that I ever saw to actually write about gender questioning in an 37 accessible way  like as an 18-year-old, sitting in my parents basement, I watched Andrea 38 Gibsons poems and that was the first time that Im like, Wow, theres different ways of being 1 and thinking and feeling that are also valid.   2 
AJ: Thats great.  How was your coming out experience with your family and your friends and 3 others? 4 
OS: Well, I havent come out to my dad as trans.  He probably knows because hes . . . I feel like 5 sometimes parents know things, especially like mail addressed to Oliver gets sent to their house 6 sometimes, hes got to know  my family talks.  I actually didnt intentionally come out to my 7 mom, really.  I put a poem on the internet, and this was even just a couple of years ago  just 8 before poetry was not the huge You Tube thing that it is now.  Im not that old, but back when I 9 started poetry, it was like some poets put their stuff on the internet but maybe 1,000 people 10 watched it.  And now its just . . . I have videos that have hundreds of thousands, which is just . . 11 . what?  Point being, it was not the same, but I put a poem on the internet thinking that no one 12 was ever going to see it and my mom happened to find it somehow.  Maybe I posted it on 13 Facebook  who knows?  And she talked to me about it after Id asked her . . . because she 14 wanted to buy me new clothes for the start of the school year and Im like, Oh mom, thats so 15 sweet.  And she was like, How about this?  How about this?  Im like, Actually, I just want a 16 button-up from the mens section.  And then it exploded.  So, I mean, of course there were 17 tears, of course there was Bible quoting, of course  there were a lot of things.  I also didnt plan 18 that one out because, for some reason, after it was out that I was trans and queer, I was like, I 19 should also come out as polyamorous and an atheist.  It just snowballed and my poor mother.  20 It was a lot, it was a lot for her.  Since then . . . I feel like there was this huge explosion and now 21 were patching it back up and she is putting in a lot of work.  I just bought a copy of Trans 22 bodies, Trans selves and that is such a fantastic resource and Im thinking of just sitting down 23 over coffee and just being like, Hey mom, heres a great section to read that has the answers 24 that I might now have, and then it kind of takes the pressure off of me to be able to explain it 25 perfectly because that shit is hard.   26 
AJ: It is. 27 
OS: Yeah.  I mean, like with my sister I cant even remember coming out to my sister so it was 28 probably no big deal.  Most of my friends are pretty supportive.  I knew from pretty much the 29 second I moved into my senior year of high school that I would not want to talk to anybody from 30 my high school ever again.  There are a couple of people who I wouldnt mind seeing but a lot of 31 my high school friends I just never came out to and they found out through the internet or 32 didnt find out.   33 
AJ: Im really glad to hear that you and your mom are sort of pulling the exploded pieces back 34 together again. 35 
OS: Its a slow pull, but its happening. 36 
AJ: What do you think the relationship between the L, the G, the B, and the T is?  Broadly, and then 37 tell me about your own experience too.   38 
OS: Well, I think . . . its very interesting being in a room full of trans people versus being in a room 39 full of cis GLB people.  I think that with the whole gay marriage movement, the HRC completely 40 fucked us over.  Gay rights have been fucking over trans people forever.  Even just looking at the 1 Stonewall movie that they made that completely erases all of the trans women of color who did 2 the majority of the work and its just like . . . I think that relations are not good and I think the 3 trans people are justifiably pissed, especially because gay, lesbian, and bi-, when people are 4 talking about it, it usually applies to cis gender gay, lesbian, and bi- people.  I know tons of trans 5 people who are lesbian, gay, bi-sexual, pan, as, everything.  And I feel like this thing happens a 6 lot where you . . . when you look in transgender history, which I dont know a ton about, and if 7 you look at the gay rights movement in history, there were a lot of like drag queens and trans 8 women working with a lot of gay cis men to get this work done back at the beginning when it 9 was a little stickier than it is now.  I feel like a lot of conflations ended up happening that have 10 not disappeared, so conflations between gender presentation and sexual orientation, and sexual 11 orientation and gender identity, and all of these things that are still really sticky that I feel like 12 are . . . the cis gender gay community has just not put in the time or the energy to actually 13 center trans people or to actually do things that benefit us, especially trans people who are 14 disproportionately affected along the lines of race and class.  And so I think its just very 15 indicative that the HRC, who I feel like kind of represents the whole cis gay movement, chose to 16 focus on marriage, which benefits mostly white cis gay men and allows the most privileged in 17 the LGBTQ+ community to assimilate and have greater capitalistic benefits and kind of just fucks 18 over everybody else.   19 
AJ: Wow. 20 
OS: Yeah, so thats how I feel about that.   21 
AJ: Thats pretty explicit, thank you.   22 
OS: Yeah. 23 
AJ: I feel like you really sort of hit a nerve when you mentioned the Stonewall movie.  Do you want 24 to say more about that?  I know the movie hasnt even premiered yet, its only been a trailer but 25 it has generated a lot of conversation in the community.  Just share a little bit more about that. 26 
OS: Yeah, I dont plan on seeing the Stonewall movie because I dont want to give my money to 27 something that has completely whitewashed the entire revolution, right?  But basically, from my 28 limited understanding, because Im not on Facebook very much because it stresses me out, is 29 that this movie has not paid homage to people like Sylvia Rivera.  Instead, this movie has, 30 surprise, given credit to whites as gay people for all of this work that trans women of color have 31 done.  I am just not about it.  It also has done some, from my understanding, some sketchy shit 32 in terms of the way that it represents interactions with the police.  I dont know, a lot of my 33 really radical anarchist friends talk about how Stonewall was a riot in response to police 34 brutality.  The fact that I feel like that is not being fully acknowledged in this movie, or in most 35 representations, is just . . . I am continually horrified but unsurprised.  36 
AJ: Well, just a little bit of history.  Miss Major Griffin-Gracy was at Stonewall that night, June 28th, 37 when it was Marsha P. Johnsons birthday and so they were all a part of that initial riot that was 38 against police brutality.  Its quite fitting that you lift up the voice of Miss Major in this interview, 39 so thank you for doing that.  What do you think the agenda should be for the trans community 40 going forward?   41 
OS: My logic  I think about this a lot, as an activist, especially as a white, mostly able-bodied, 1 college educated activist, like is what is my role in different struggles and what can I do, and 2 what is actually accomplishable?  And so, a lot of my friends would say dismantle the state, find 3 some other way other than police  like all of these super radical reforms.  Im not sure if I think 4 thats possible yet, but I think that definitely starting by considering and centering the needs of 5 the most marginalized people in our community would make a lot of sense.  Now I feel like 6 whats happening is were centering . . . well, I dont know who we is.  I feel like the 7 conversations that are happening in mainstream society are about the most privileged people in 8 our community, so I would like to see . . . like marriage whatever.  Im polyamorous, Im not 9 going to . . . I dont care about marriage.  But I think  like lets talk about things like murder, 10 incarceration, homelessness, access to health care, access to jobs  like all of these things that I 11 feel like . . . it makes sense to me to focus on basic survival needs first.  What do you need for 12 your body to literally be alive?  I think that you can do more than one thing at one time, I just 13 think that . . . I dont know, go to the center of the violence and tackle that.  Even though its a 14 big question, its a huge question  its a huge problem, its not as easy to tackle as changing a 15 law so people can get married.  But I think that its so important and I dont think that the type 16 of revolutionary change that were looking for is going to happen without it.  They keep saying, 17 Well get to trans people next, well get there next, and whens it coming?  When is it coming?  18 I just finished reading Janet Mocks book and she says a lot . . .  19 
AJ: Redefining Realness? 20 
OS: Yeah.  She says a lot, No one was going to do it for me, so I did it myself.  And I think Miss 21 Major said something very similar, No one else is going to do it for us, Bamby Salcedo, People 22 dont give a shit about trans people except for trans people, weve got to do it ourselves.   23 
AJ: Wow.  Have you ever worked for or volunteered at a trans specific or LGBT organization?   24 
OS: Well, I feel like a lot of the things that Ive done . . . Ive done a lot of college activist work for 25 different things.  I feel like I havent been as involved as Ive wanted to be because I feel like Im 26 already stretched very thin.  And so, Ive worked on a lot of smaller projects  like I created an 27 educational zine I distributed to all the faculty at Macalester.  Right now Im currently working 28 on a project writing trans inclusive workplace tips to go on the State of Minnesotas job posting 29 board.  So a lot of smaller projects like that . . . yeah, Im involved in a lot of things.  I run a queer 30 and trans open mic. 31 
AJ: Where does that happen? 32 
OS: It happens at the Fox Egg Gallery on 38th and Chicago.  Yeah, and thats a really cool space.  So 33 things like that.  I feel like a lot of the spaces I go that I work with or for, like 20% Theatre 34 Company, is a lot of just finding community and activism through art.  I would love to actually do 35 more other types of activism.   36 
AJ: What kind of issues would you involve yourself in?  37 
OS: I would really love to join a coalition and support the shit out of a coalition, especially for the 38 Black Lives Matter movement that is tackling police brutality but also with a trans inclusive 39 focus.  Because I feel like most movements do not have a trans inclusive focus and I feel like 40 thats just something that I would really love to devote a ton of energy into, especially because I 1 do not have . . . I do not have a lot of perspectives necessary for conversations, especially 2 around race and police brutality, but I do have friends who can show up to protests, I do have a 3 college with a lot of money, I do have . . . there are still ways that I feel like I can push resources 4 and I want to push those resources in the right direction.   5 
AJ: Sure, thats great. 6 
OS: I do have a body.  I do have a body that can march, I do have a body that can make fliers and 7 email representatives.  I can do that work. 8 
AJ: Has there been any impact of your trans identity on your professional life up to this point?  I 9 know youre just about to graduate from college so you havent really jumped out into the 10 professional world yet.   11 
OS: Yeah . . . 12 
AJ: Have you been able to get employment to date and do you see yourself being able to access 13 employment opportunities in the future? 14 
OS: I am thinking already, going into my senior year of college, I want to make sure that I have a 15 future that is sustainable, a financially stable future is something that I do want for myself.  I 16 think that my transgender identity, and actually my alternative identity, are the two most 17 present for me when thinking about job searches because initially I was thinking about being a 18 professor.  I have never even heard of a single non-binary trans professor  anywhere, ever.  19 And the fact that Macalester currently has one visiting professor who was just hired this 20 semester who is trans.  I have never been taught by a trans professor, that I know of, at 21 Macalester.  I have never even met an openly transgendered employee, besides fellow students.  22 And so I had a conversation with one of my professors a couple years back about is it actually 23 feasible for me to become a professor or am I going to spend years and years getting my 24 masters and applying in an already competitive job market just to be faced with an institution 25 that doesnt know how to support me and isnt willing to support me because were just not 26 quite there yet.  And it didnt seem like there was a ton of hope.  I mean, she told me that a lot 27 of things can change in 10 years and so maybe in ten years if I choose to get my Ph.D., or 28 whatever, there will be space.  But I dont think Im willing to take a 10-year gamble.  I think 29 there are some things where Im like, Yes, I will be the first non-binary trans person to ever do 30 this, but sometimes I dont really want to be a pioneer, I just want to be a person.  So thats 31 definitely affected stuff.  I think in terms of . . . Ive been applying to a lot of major jobs, but Ive 32 definitely been in job interviews, even at my liberal college, which I think terrifies me the most 33 because I expect them to be the best, where I was in an interview and I happened to mention 34 that I was trans and the person interviewing me said, Oh, well just so you know, you might 35 have to deal with some transphobia from clients and we just want to make sure that this is a 36 good fit for you.  They were trying to be nice and be like, Hey, Im preparing you, but what I 37 ended up hearing was, Because our clients are not suited to respect your identity, you are not 38 suitable for this job.   39 
AJ: Did you get the job? 40 
OS: I did not get the job.  And so its one of those things where I dont know . . . I dont know if they 1 didnt hire me because I was trans, but I feel like there was something very legitimate about the 2 fear and the what if, and every time I step into a job interview, its the what if, the what if.  And I 3 feel like for me, personally, being a non-binary trans person there is no way for me to get basic 4 respect, like pronouns or bathroom use, if I dont disclose that Im trans.  In some ways I want 5 my interviewer to know right off the bat that Im trans because I would rather know that theyre 6 transphobic before Im stuck in the job than after Im stuck in the job.   7 
AJ: True.   8 
OS: But I mean, other than that mostly just bosses being bad about pronouns, bosses and co-9 workers not being conscious of what theyre saying and just base level transphobia and sexism 10 that people have just internalized and learned and most of them dont even recognize that 11 theyre doing it.  Still harmful but . . .  12 
AJ: So, 2045, 30 years from now, where do you see the transgender movement?   13 
OS: Oh goodness.  I know where I want to see it.  Hopefully at that point . . . 30 years, it feels so long 14 and also so short.  I really think . . . I have hope in the transgender movement, hopefully by that 15 time there will at least be transgender professionals in far more occupations.  I think at that 16 time access to trans health care will have improved  I dont think that it will be perfect because 17 the medical establishment is awful.  I think that will have improved, I think that there is a lot of 18 great work, that I think people underrate sometimes, going on on the internet  like Tumblr.  19 Tumblr has provided like . . . probably 75% of the resources that Ive had access to, even just 20 links to positive media representation of trans people, which matters so much.  So I think that 21 the work is still pushing through and I think that there are a lot of radical trans folks who are 22 centering on a lot of the things that I think are really important  like incarceration, like 23 homelessness.  I really hope that we can gain the momentum to actually tackle some of those 24 things in a really significant way. 25 
AJ: Wow.  Thank you, Oliver, this has been a pleasure and a deep honor.  Thank you. 26 
OS: Thank you.  Thanks for having me.  27 

