 
 
 
 
Alonzo Wesley Narrator   Andrea Jenkins Interviewer 
 
 
 
 
 
The Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies University of Minnesota 
October 13, 2015 
 
 
 
 
 

  
  
 
The Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story, while providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source material about the transgender community.  The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for current and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public. 
The Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300 individuals over the next three years.  Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and experiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality.  This project will be led by Andrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist.  Andrea brings years of experience working in government, non-profits and LGBT organizations.  If you are interested in being involved in this exciting project, please contact Andrea. 
Andrea Jenkins jenki120@umn.edu (612) 625-4379 
 
 
 
 
  
Andrea Jenkins -AJ 1 
Alonzo Wesley -AW 2 
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AJ:  My name is Andrea Jenkins and I am the oral historian for the Transgender Oral History Project 5 and I am here today, today is October 13, 2015, and I am here with Alonzo Wesley.  But Im 6 going to ask you, Alonzo, to introduce yourself and tell us your preferred pronouns, your gender 7 identity, and your gender assigned at birth.   8 
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AW: My name is Alonzo Lee Wesley.  Im 44, I am male, I identify as transgender.  I was born female 10 but Ive always been male.   11 
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AJ: So he, him, dad, uncle? 13 
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AW: He, him, dad, uncle, grandpa.  My granddaughter actually calls me Papa. 15 
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AJ: Papa  wow.  Tell me about your earliest memory, Alonzo.  Whats your earliest memory? 17 
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AW: Well my earliest memory, I was four years old and I was raised in a huge family.  I have two 19 other sisters and I have three brothers.  Of them, being raised only with the two brothers and 20 two sisters.  My other brother died.  But I remember being about three or four and wanting to 21 be able to go to the bathroom standing up.   22 
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AJ: When you were three or four? 24 
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AW: Yup, and I didnt understand why I couldnt stand up to go to the bathroom.   26 
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AJ: Did you tell anybody about this?  Did you try to do it and people were like, Hey, why is there 28 pee all over the floor?   29 
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AW: I tried to do it and I peed all over the floor and my mom was like, How did you pee on 31 yourself?  Because my clothes got wet, everything got wet.   32 
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AJ: Right.  34 
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AW: I didnt talk back then and so I had all these thoughts in my head that I never verbalized.  My 36 family was quite judgmental, quite emotionally abusive, and often times physically abusive.  So 37 it was kind of like it was better to be seen but never heard.   38 
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AJ: Really?  Where did you grow up? 40 
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AW: South Minneapolis  off 40th and 2nd.   42 
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AJ: So you are from Minnesota, born and raised here? 44 
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AW: I was raised here.  My mom moved us up here when I was a month old.  My dad . . . how much is 46 this going to be shown?   47 
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AJ: Well, people have to come look for it.   1 
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AW: Well my dad . . . my mom accidently stabbed my dad and they took him to the emergency room 3 and the doctors were arguing about who was going to stitch this nigger up . . . 4 
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AJ: Oh wow. 6 
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AW: In 1971, and he bled to death in the emergency room. 8 
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AJ: What? 10 
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AW: Yup. 12 
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AJ: Where was this? 14 
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AW: Kansas City.   16 
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AJ: OK.  So your family moved here from Kansas City. 18 
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AW: Yes.  After that my fathers side of the family disowned us, wouldnt have anything to do with us, 20 and my mom moved us out of the state.   21 
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AJ: Understandably so.  What place in the family were you?  Were you the oldest?  Were you the 23 youngest?  Middle? 24 
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AW: I am the youngest.  I am the youngest of all, but I was the most mature of all my siblings.   26 
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AJ: Really? 28 
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AW: I was the first to move out on my own.  I was first to go to college, I was first to do everything in 30 my family.   31 
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AJ: So theres something to being the youngest person in the family.  You sort of created your own 33 path.   34 
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AW: Yes. 36 
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AJ: What was elementary school like over in south Minneapolis?  Which school did you go to? 38 
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AW: I went to Lyndale and my earliest memory about Lyndale Elementary School is a boy liked me 40 and I was in 3rd or 4th grade and he wouldnt stop bothering me and harassing me.  He punched 41 me in the face and chipped my front tooth.   42 
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AJ: Wow.  44 
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AW: I was always bullied in school, always.  I dont know, I was just different from everybody else.  I 1 have a picture of myself  it says 4th and 5th grade, it was a classroom picture, and my wife said, 2 Theres something about that picture and I cant put my finger on it.  And then she said, when 3 she finally figured it out, she said, Youre wearing your brothers clothes.  From top to bottom 4 I had on his shoes, I had on his pants, and his blue shirt and his brown belt buckle and I had a 5 smile from here to next year. 6 
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AJ: How old were you?  8 
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AW: I was nine at that point. 10 
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AJ: Wow. 12 
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AW: But my mom wouldnt let us wear anything but dresses to school so I had to sneak the clothes 14 out of the house. 15 
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AJ: Really?  So that was your sort of . . . I dont know, was it your first time sort of cross dressing, if 17 you will?  Or dressing in the clothes you felt most comfortable? 18 
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AW: No, I used to go down to the basement all the time and try on their clothes, all the time.  I had 20 just never ventured to do it in public. 21 
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AJ: And you did it on school picture day? 23 
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AW: On picture day.   25 
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AJ: What did your mom say when she saw the pictures?  27 
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AW: She had a fit.  She told me, I used to have those kind of weird thoughts in my head, but I knew 29 the right thing, so I did the right thing instead.  Im like, OK.  But, here I am.   30 
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AJ: This is the right thing for me.   32 
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AW: This is me.  From then on there was always events like when I was nine and my best friend, 34 Penny, from down the street, her brother caught me and Penny making out, at nine, and he told 35 his mom and they called my mom. 36 
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AJ: At nine you were making out with girls? 38 
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AW: Yes.  She taught me how to french kiss.  40 
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AJ: So basically you came out at nine years old? 42 
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AW: Yes. 44 
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AJ: You know this is National Coming Out Week, right? 46 
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AW: Yes. 2 
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AJ: Nine years old  but you were forced out basically. 4 
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AW: Yes. 6 
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AJ: Someone came and caught you guys and then told everybody.   8 
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AW: Right. 10 
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AJ: Did you ever go back into the closet after that?   12 
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AW: I never spoke about it after that.  I changed my name.  I stopped going by Karen and started 14 going by Lynn because everybody knew.  So people would come up to me and say, Is your 15 name Karen?  Id say, No, my name is Lynn.  And thats my middle name.  It took people a 16 long time to realize that . . .  17 
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AJ: Karen and Lynn was one in the same person. 19 
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AW: Right.  I did a lot of things to protect myself.  I never felt safe so I did lots of things to protect 21 myself back then.  22 
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AJ: Wow, that is quite a story.  How did your family members treat you?  They knew. 24 
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AW: They knew but they were in denial.  It was just a phase, I was going to grow out of it.  They all 26 were convinced that I couldnt really be gay because if I was gay they would know it because my 27 cousin, Michael, was gay and he got AIDS and died, but from the time he was a little boy he 28 dressed like a girl, he talked like a girl, he acted like a girl, and since the time I was little they 29 always dressed me in dresses and did my hair up in bows and so I must not be gay because I 30 conformed to what they expected me to do.   31 
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AJ: So, I guess . . . one of my questions here is tell me about the first time you realized that you 33 were not the gender assigned at birth and you talked about this memory at four of wanting to 34 stand and pee, which is some insight I guess.  And then at nine you wore your brothers clothes 35 to school picture day, but when did that light go off for you  to say, Im a boy.   36 
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AW: I knew when me and Penny, my best friend  the girl I got caught kissing, we talked about 38 everything and I told her I wanted to be a boy. 39 
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AJ: Really?  How old were you?   41 
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AW: I was nine.  I wanted to be a boy.  I wanted to stand up and go to the bathroom, I wanted a 43 penis, I wanted to be a boy.  I didnt want this body that I had.  44 
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AJ: So you and Penny stayed close friends after you got caught? 46 
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AW: No.  Her family, about six months later, picked up and moved out of the area.  We ran back into 2 each other when I was 19 and she had had her first kid by the time she was 12 and she was 3 raped through incest from her family, just horrible things that they were convinced they were 4 going to change her.  But when I ran back into her she was just coming back into who she was.  5 And so, in the end, it wasnt experimenting.  I was a boy, she was a girl, and thats the way it 6 was.  She was a lesbian and . . .  7 
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AJ: Wow.  Fascinating.  So what terms do you use to describe yourself? 9 
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AW: What do you mean? 11 
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AJ: Do you call yourself a transgender man?  Do you identify as gender queer?  I know Ive met a lot 13 of very masculine Black women who, on the surface, it would seem that they may be trans 14 identified but when you talk to them, they will tell you that they just identify as a butch lesbian. 15 
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AW: Im definitely trans man.  Often times I tell my kids, Im straight.  The older kids, they went back 17 and forth with it for a while, but they are my kids.  Mom is a boy, and Preston even, at 16, when 18 he was three years old, he swore I was a boy  he knew I was a boy.  It wasnt until society got 19 ahold of him when he started school, that his perception got . . .  20 
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AJ: A little changed or different or something. 22 
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AW: Right.   24 
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AJ: And youre comfortable with that?  26 
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AW: Yes, because Ive always been open with my kids.  And honest.  My kids whole lives . . . I started 28 doing cross dressing as a drag king when I as 16.  Id sneak out of the house and Id do shows, Id 29 sneak into clubs.   30 
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AJ: So youre a drag queen, where did you perform?   32 
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AW: I performed for Metro, I performed for . . . 34 
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AJ: Is that over in St. Paul? 36 
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AW: Metro was in St. Paul, Club Metro. 38 
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AJ: Club Metro.   40 
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AW: That was over in St. Paul.  I performed for many years through the Townhouse.  I started the 42 group over at Lucys.  43 
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AJ: I remember that, in St. Paul too. 45 
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AW: In St. Paul too.  Over in Wisconsin at the Androy, right next to the Androy there was a gay bar 1 and I performed there.   2 
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AJ: Whats the name of the place you named?  The Androy  A-n-d-r-o-y? 4 
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AW: Yes.  Its a hotel, but right next door to it theres a gay bar.  And so I performed there, I used to 6 go up to Hibbing every year to perform in their yearly benefit.  When I first started . . . 7 
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AJ: In Hibbing?  Minnesota?   9 
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AW: Minnesota.  They loved me in Hibbing.  I was called, The Barry White of the Twin Cities.   11 
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AJ: Did you make good money doing the performance? 13 
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AW: Yes.  I usually donated all my money to projects like . . . for the Townhouse, they have . . . its a 15 house for people with AIDS.  And, I donated my money to them and most of the time, if my 16 money didnt go directly back into my wardrobe I was donating it.  And so, it was never about 17 the money for me.  It was always about me being who I am.   18 
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AJ: Yeah, wow.  Thats amazing.  How long would you say you did drag performance? 20 
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AW: I did drag performance up until . . . I had my last show when . . . oh wow, about seven years ago.  22 So about . . . thats a long time. 23 
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AJ: Over 20 years. 25 
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AW: Over 20 years.   27 
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AJ: You had a long, long illustrious career as a drag performer.  How many kids do you have?  You 29 talked about these young people. 30 
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AW: I have nine kids and all at different ages.  The youngest is nine now, the oldest is 26.  Five of 32 them still live with me and four of them are out on their own.   33 
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AJ: Nine kids.  How in the world . . . are you married? 35 
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AW: Yes.  My wife is Selena Banks.  She is really big into the community.  She volunteers and she goes 37 to events and protests and rallies and volunteers her time to Feed My Starving Children.  She 38 just does many amazing things, shes an amazing woman.   39 
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AJ: Wow, it sounds like it.  And shes raising nine children. 41 
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AW: Yes, with me. 43 
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AJ: Are any of them your biological children?   45 
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AW: I have no biological children, she has a biological son.  And the rest of them are adopted and one 1 of them we have permanent custody of  the nine-year-old.  But its my goal to adopt her. 2 
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AJ: So, what our viewers cant see Alonzo is that you are assisted by an electric wheelchair.   4 
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AW: Yes. 6 
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AJ: Do you want to talk about that at all and how you came to be disabled and also how does your 8 disability play in your trans identity? 9 
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AW: What I found is that being trans, its almost like Im invisible anyway and the men that I deal 11 with, its like Im insulting their manhood and the women that I deal with are always a lot more 12 accepting of me.  Being a parent of nine kids, and being in a wheelchair, has taught me, through 13 them and their special needs, that anything is possible.  There is no limit set on you other than 14 the limits we put on ourselves.  When I couldnt get up anymore and walk to the bathroom, I 15 found a new way to get up and get to the bathroom.  Sometimes I crawl there. 16 
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AJ: So you were not born disabled?  You were performing and doing all this stuff. 18 
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AW: Ive had arthritis since I was nine, I was diagnosed when I was eight and for years before I was 20 diagnosed with arthritis, I suffered horrible pain in my joints and they kept saying that it was 21 growing pains.  Until my doctor was out one day and my mom couldnt take the crying and 22 screaming and I seen his partner and his partner said, Were sending you to the U.  So I was 23 diagnosed by the time I was nine with juvenile-onset rheumatoid arthritis.  So every time I 24 performed it hurt, it hurts to walk, to bend, to turn, to twist, move my head  it hurts, its hard.  25 But I learned that I have to keep going and that all of my kids have disabilities and Ive always 26 told them the only disability that you have is the ones we put on ourselves.  Were able-bodied, 27 you can do anything you put your mind to.  I have a going-out performance, one last 28 performance from the Barry White of the Twin Cities  its supposed to be coming in January of 29 this year. 30 
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AJ: Really?  Where is that going to be? 32 
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AW: Hibbing.   34 
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AJ: In Hibbing? 36 
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AW: Yes. 38 
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AK They love you in Hibbing. 40 
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AW: They love me in Hibbing.  I dont know, you cant see but Ive broken my left foot in several 42 places, and my right foot in several places.  So Im waiting for those bones to kind of heal up but 43 Im still practicing my songs. 44 
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AJ: Getting ready for your show. 46 
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AW: Getting ready for my show.  In the last several shows that I did, I actually did a couple of them 2 sitting down in the chair and one, or two, using my cane.  I have a hand-crafted cane, a very nice 3 one  it looks like a pimp cane.  4 
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AJ: So you made it a part of your act? 6 
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AW: I made it a part of my act.   8 
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AJ: I love it.  I love it, I love it, I love it.  Youve got to be sure to keep us informed when your 10 performance up in Hibbing happens.   11 
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AW: I definitely will. 13 
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AJ: In January, did you say? 15 
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AW: Yes.   17 
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AJ: Thats kind of a cold time of the year to go to Hibbing. 19 
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AW: Its cold but youd be surprised, they come out for a good benefit  and theyre real supportive.   21 
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AJ: Wow.  What are some of the challenges that youve faced since expressing your true gender 23 identity? 24 
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AW: People always call me Maam still.  I was on testosterone for three years. 26 
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AJ: So misgendered? 28 
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AW: Misgendered all the time.  The testosterone didnt work to deepen my voice because it 30 interacted with some of my other meds.  It didnt do what it needed to do.  But, even though 31 Ive had my top surgery and to me, I look at myself, and I dont see a girl or a woman when I look 32 at myself.  People still call me by the wrong gender and it drives me crazy  every day.   33 
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AJ: Does this happen in medical facilities and . . .? 35 
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AW: In medical facilities youre treated differently. 37 
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AJ: When you go to the kids school?   39 
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AW: Actually, I volunteered last week at picture day at my kids school, they go to a new school out 41 here in the Hopkins School District.  The principal, special education teachers, the office staff, 42 everyone referred to me as sir, everyone introduced me as my kids father, and even in the 43 middle of the day after volunteering for eight hours straight I had to go to the bathroom, and 44 they were like, Oh, the mens room is over there.  They never once questioned it and thats 45 the first time that Ive really got to feel its OK to be me.   46 
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AJ: Really?  Wow, after all these years.   2 
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AW: After all these years.  Just as recently as two months ago, I went to a doctor after being released 4 from the hospital, my doctor wasnt in so they had me see a different doctor.  I was in pain and I 5 had broken out in bumps all over my body.  She, the doctor  the worst bedside manner, but 6 she kept using these big terms and I was like, What does that mean?  Oh, its nothing, were 7 just going to run a test and make sure you dont have something or other.  I was like OK.  Well, 8 come to find out, she was running an AIDS test on me.  She put in her notes that she didnt know 9 what to call it, referring to me, and that . . . 10 
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AJ: Are you kidding? 12 
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AW: No, it was horrible.  I filed a complaint and cussed people out.  I was so indignified.  Ive been 14 with the same partner for 15 years . . .  15 
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AJ: Right.  Youre raising nine kids. 17 
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AW: Im raising nine kids and I dont expect to go to the doctor and be treated like a sub-human. 19 
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AJ: She said, I dont know what to call it? 21 
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AW: It.   23 
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AJ: Oh my goodness.  I hope you pursue some kind of action against this person. 25 
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AW: I did.   27 
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AJ: Nobody should be practicing medicine with that level of callousness in 2015. 29 
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AW: No. 31 
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AJ: What hospital was this  or clinic? 33 
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AW: This is a clinic  HCMC out here in Golden Valley.  Do not go there if you are gay.  They do not 35 like gay people, they do not like transgender people, they are not accepting  its horrible. 36 
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AJ: Have you ever had any interactions with police?   38 
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AW: You know, surprisingly enough Ive only had one bad experience with the police.  One police 40 officer pulled me over, driving out in Crystal, and told me I didnt belong.  He wanted to search 41 my car, he wanted me to sit in the back of the police car until he ran all my information.  No, 42 actually there was two, because after that event I was dropping my daughter off in Plymouth 43 and got pulled over and the woman wanted to see my ID.  Even though it says male on there, 44 she kept referring to me as female.   45 
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AJ: Really? 1 
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AW: Yeah, my drivers license says Im male and my name is Alonzo.  Well, she was just nasty and, 3 Well you need to do a breathalyzer.  Well I have chronic asthma so I had a hard time breathing 4 into the machine.  It took about 5-7 minutes to actually get it so I could actually register that I 5 had no alcohol in my system.  Through all the harassment, Ive never gotten a ticket because I 6 wasnt doing anything illegal, I was just being me  a Black man behind the wheel of a car and 7 being targeted. 8 
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AJ: In a white neighborhood  so, of course.  10 
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AW: Right. 12 
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AJ: So youve experienced a new sort of level of discrimination or bigotry and that is of a Black man.   14 
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AW: Right. 16 
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AJ: What is that experience like?  It seems as if youve been pretty out for a long time but do you 18 feel like there is a difference in how you were treated when people maybe perceived you more 19 as female and now that people perceive you more as male?  20 
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AW: Theyre more accepting of me being a lesbian than they are of me being transgender.  Theyre 22 just really not accepting of that. 23 
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AJ: What about your family? 25 
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AW: My wife . . . 27 
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AJ: What is your relationship like with your birth family?  Your brothers and sisters. 29 
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AW: My wife and kids are very supportive to me, 100%.  My sisters, my oldest sister is gay herself, 31 and so she accepts me.  My second to the oldest sister, she accepts me and says, I always 32 knew, I always knew you were a boy.  And my aunt, my favorite Aunt Judy, shes always telling 33 me these things I can do so people will see, when they look at me, that Im a boy and shes 100% 34 on board with supporting me. 35 
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AJ: In your corner, yeah.  Thats great.  Is your mother still in your life? 37 
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AW: My mother passed about eight years ago, but at the time she passed I was still doing drag,  I 39 hadnt changed genders yet but I was performing four to five nights a week as a man.  And even 40 when I didnt perform as a man I still dressed as one.  And she was fine with that, she didnt 41 question it anymore.  She, on her deathbed, let me know that she was sorry and would I forgive 42 her.  I told her I would.  It was OK. 43 
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AJ: What was she asking for forgiveness for, if you dont mind?  45 
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AW: My brother molested me and she called me a lying bitch.  It took years for her to come to grips 1 that I was a lesbian because she felt it was her fault.  She couldnt accept the fact that I was just 2 a boy, I was born into this body but I was a boy.  Id always have thoughts of . . . I was out there 3 playing football, tackle football.  When I asked for a bike, I wanted a dirt bike  I didnt want the 4 little girls bike with the little . . .  5 
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AJ: Flower seats and . . . 7 
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AW: Flower seats and things.   9 
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AJ: Well, Im really happy to hear that you guys were able to reconcile and that she showed love 11 and support on her way to the next phase of life. 12 
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AW: Thats right.   14 
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AJ: So you talked about some of the medical interventions that youve done.  So youve had chest 16 surgery, when did that happen? 17 
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AW: I didnt have my chest surgery until last year and the only reason it took me so long is because 19 last year they passed a law saying that Medicare can pay for top surgery.  And, I was the first 20 one in line.  I called my doctor at the U, Dr. Marie Claire Buckley and said, Medicare says theyll 21 cover this now, I want it done.  And when I went in she was like, I havent even heard of it and 22 if its true, then well get it taken care of.  I had my surgery less than six months later. 23 
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AJ: Wow, good for you.  Was that a part of the Obama Care? 25 
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AW: Yes.   27 
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AJ: So the Medicare piece is working for trans people, people can go access trans specific health 29 care.   30 
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AW: Thats right.  You just have to find a doctor that is willing to send the paperwork in.  Its just a 32 matter of getting it authorized.  They cant deny you because now its in their books saying that 33 this is a medical necessity.  34 
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AJ: And then you took testosterone? 36 
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AW: Yes.   38 
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AJ: But it just didnt quite, because of other medications, you were feeling that it didnt quite work 40 well.  Emotionally how did you feel about that? 41 
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AW: Im still very sad about it because I had grew facial hair, which made me ecstatic.  It wasnt real 43 dark and it wasnt a whole lot, but it was enough to distinguish me as male.  I went to the barber 44 and before you know it, he shaved off my sideburns and I was like, What are you doing?  But it 45 was too late  and it never grew back. 46 
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AJ: Oh really.   2 
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AW: Yes. 4 
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AJ: Thats sad. 6 
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AW: It is, because I cant go back on the testosterone because of the effects it was doing to my 8 kidneys.  I have a lot of health problems, my health is very delicate so I have to be careful of the 9 meds I take.   10 
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AJ: Sure. 12 
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AW: I had a hysterectomy when I was 19, I knew I wasnt having any babies.  It was not happening. 14 
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AJ: That was not the road you wanted to be down.  But you clearly wanted children in your life. 16 
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AW: Yes.  I asked my wife when I met her would she be the mother of my kids and she told me, Well 18 Im done with having kids.  I said, Its OK, Im shooting blanks anyway.  I was in full drag.  But 19 shes accepted me through the whole process.  When I met her she knew I was a drag king but I 20 wasnt going through my transition but she supported me because thats what she knew I 21 needed to become complete.   22 
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AJ: So looking back over your life, what were some of the pivotal moments that defined your new 24 life?  Or what pivotal moment made you decide I need to do these medical interventions to be 25 more congruent with my life. 26 
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AW: It was my kids.  I had had a breast reduction when I was 21 and they took them as small as they 28 could take them  and they grew back. 29 
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AJ: Wow. 31 
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AW: Theyre like, Well breast tissue continues to grow and yadda, yadda.  I didnt care about any of 33 that stuff. 34 
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AJ: I never heard of that. 36 
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AW: It does.  I never got back to be as big as I was, but they grew back so much that I was no longer 38 flat chested and that it was obvious that I wasnt male.  That just blew me away.  That was kind 39 of the . . . then my kids.  My kids were, Moms a boy.  And now theyre just like, Thats dad, 40 thats not mom, thats not a she.  They correct each other if one of the other kids makes 41 mistakes.  42 
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AJ: Do they correct people in public? 44 
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AW: Yes.   46 
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AJ: Thats sweet.   2 
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AW: It is.   4 
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AJ: Thats a blessing.  Would you have done anything differently?   6 
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AW: Nothing.  I wouldnt have changed a thing.  Only because . . .  8 
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AJ: If theres a magic pill that would make you be comfortable as a woman and I handed it to you, 10 would you take it? 11 
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AW: No. 13 
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AJ: You like who you are? 15 
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AW: I am who I am.  I am Alonzo and Ive always been a male, I just unfortunately havent always 17 looked the part.   18 
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AJ: OK.  Has there been a specific person that has had an impact on you expressing your true 20 identity?  Have you met anybody or read a magazine or saw somebody on TV that really inspired 21 you? 22 
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AW: The only person who really made me . . . the two people in my life that made me want to aspire 24 to be the person I truly am is my wife and my aunt.  I mean, my aunt  were going to go and get 25 tattoos that thicken my eyebrows and puts the sideburns in so that people stop mistaking me 26 for a girl.  But shes always coming up with ideas and things that, you know . . . I was wearing 27 metal mens glasses, she said, Those are too feminine for you, were going to pick you out 28 some new glasses.   29 
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AJ: Whats your aunts name? 31 
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AW: Judith Terry.  33 
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AJ: Judith.  Thats sweet, so supportive.  And clearly, I think, we can say that your drag identity and 35 all the work that youve done sort of supporting various charities and those kinds of things has 36 had some impact as well. 37 
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AW: Yes, definitely. 39 
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AJ: You told me about this amazing woman that youre married to, how long have you guys been 41 together? 42 
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AW: Fifteen years. 44 
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AJ: Fifteen years.  Had you been in other relationships with women prior to that or have you had 1 relationships with guys? 2 
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AW: Ive never had a relationship with a guy  ever.  And, all the women Id ever dealt with, I was 4 always . . . they used to call me a dog because I told every woman Ive ever met, There is no 5 woman on this earth that can make me settle down.  Im not going to commit, Im never going 6 to be the one, so you cant make me.  And my wife . . .  7 
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AJ: And then you met your match. 9 
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AW: She said, and she was so sweet about it, OK, thats fine, but I cant continue with this 11 relationship because I want more.  And Im like, Well, I was honest with you from the 12 beginning, I didnt want to commit and I didnt want that type of relationship.  So, I kept seeing 13 her because she worked for Over the Rainbow and I performed at Over the Rainbow and Id get 14 a chance to see her and there was just something that was about her that kept me wanting to 15 talk to her.  And so, when I finally decided that, you know what?  I really do want to go through 16 this, shes been the only woman who has been by my side to accept me 100% for who I am.  And 17 thats why I hadnt ever committed is because I couldnt find any woman out there that was 18 willing to accept the fact that Im a boy.  Im OK with being a boy and women say that theyre Ok 19 with it but then they want you to do things that are not masculine and that I dont perceive as 20 masculine.  I was like, Nope, cant deal with you  next.   21 
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AJ: So your gender identity is pretty rigid, its not fluid  back and forth.  What are some of the 23 things that you consider not masculine that they might ask you to do? 24 
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AW: Women are all about breasts - they like touching them, they like playing with them, I dont know 26 what their hang-up is but I didnt like them so there is no touching me.  I touch you, dont touch 27 me.  And theyre like, Well thats not fair.  These are the rules:  I like to give pleasure and I 28 dont like to be touched.  I dont mind my wife caressing my hair and now that Ive had my top 29 surgery, I dont even mind her touching my chest, but other than that Im the man and theres 30 no funny business going on.   31 
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AJ: OK, all right.  Its clear and its a pretty common theme that I hear from trans masculine 33 identified people.  When is the first time you ever met another trans person?   34 
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AW: I was 16, at the 90s, snuck in and met a woman . . . I cant remember her name but shes the 36 first trans person I had ever met.   37 
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AJ: Black woman?  White woman? 39 
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AW: Black woman.  And actually up until five years ago, I didnt ever think that I actually get what I 41 wanted which was to change my name and to be male.  I met this amazing woman in the 42 grocery store and her name was Andrea Jenkins.  I approached her and she said to me . . . and I 43 never approach anyone at the grocery store, I am so shy.  I asked her about how do you become 44 the gender you want to be  just honest with how to do the name change and how to . . . 45 different little things I could do, not big things.   46 
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AJ: Sure. 2 
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AW: But little things I could do to get the ball rolling.   4 
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AJ: Wow, this Andrea girl must be pretty cool! 6 
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AW: Very cool.  That, for me, was the pivotal change.   8 
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AJ: Wow, thats blowing my mind right now.  You can see my hat is coming off my head and 10 everything.  Oh boy . . . what do you think the relationship is between the L, the G, the B and the 11 T?  Is there a relationship?  Should there be a relationship?  How do you feel in the company of 12 gay or lesbian people? 13 
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AW: Im comfortable with everybody I deal with.  Straight, gay, transgender, lesbian, bisexual  Im 15 comfortable with it. But, as a transgender male Ive been ostracized from the gay community.  16 People in the gay community . . . Im considered privileged now because Im male even though 17 my disability, my blackness, all these other things still make me part of this minority group of 18 people and they dont understand it.  I think theres a huge disconnect between the gay, lesbian, 19 bisexual, transgender community because of that. 20 
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AJ: Yeah.  Were you involved at all in the movement for same-sex marriage? 22 
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AW: Yes I was. 24 
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AJ: Did you play a formal role or . . .? 26 
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AW: I petitioned, I did cold calling, I wrote my congressman, I sent letters out. 28 
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AJ: So even though you recognize that there was this disconnect, as you say, between the LGBT 30 communities, you still felt a strong desire to be on the right side of human history. 31 
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AW: Yes.  Even though I think theres a disconnect, I feel that as a transgender man, its my 33 responsibility to help open peoples eyes. 34 
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AJ: Wow, thats important.  What do you think should be the agenda for the transgender 36 community going forward? 37 
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AW: My aim is to get gender neutral bathrooms throughout the state, there should always be a 39 gender neutral bathroom.  I use the mens room, I dont have a problem with using the mens 40 room except for the fact that it kind of makes you a target because men, they look at you, and if 41 they dont see you as a man then somehow they feel like they have to puff themselves up and 42 to act on their masculinity because youre challenging their masculinity.  It has to do with all 43 about them, so I dont always feel safe going into the mens room. 44 
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AJ: Sure.  Have you experienced that kind of opposition going into the bathroom? 46 
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AW: Yes.   2 
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AJ: Wow.  What happened? 4 
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AW: I was accosted from some guys and theyre like, The ladies room is over there, you dont belong 6 in here.  I said, My drivers license says Im male, Im male  I dont know what youre talking 7 about.   8 
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AJ: And who cares?  Its one of the craziest things . . . Im sure when you go to the bathroom you go 10 into a single stall and you close the door. 11 
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AW: Exactly.  They dont understand  Im not trying to look at them. 13 
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AJ: And youve never been in a relationship with a man in your life?   15 
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AW: Exactly. 17 
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AJ: Yeah, thats a big one.  That should definitely be at the top of the agenda I think.  Safety, going 19 to the bathroom.  What else would you put on that list?   20 
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AW: I would think that there should be more open discussion in schools, not specifically about 22 transgender people in general, but that everybody is different.  There is a disconnect between 23 the Black community and the Somali community, theres disconnect between the transgender 24 community and the gay/lesbian/bisexual community.  And it doesnt have to be.  If everybody 25 accepts that America is a mixed race full of different cultures and different ethnicities and 26 different abilities, that were all united as one because of that, then we can learn to accept each 27 other and who we are and where were going to go in this life. 28 
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AJ: Wow, beautifully stated.  Have you ever worked or volunteered for any trans organizations at 30 all?   31 
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AW: I volunteered for a trans organization and I used to go to the trans support group on Wednesday 33 night, its over . . .  34 
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AJ: At Cafe South Side. 36 
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AW: Yes.  But Id be the only African American man in there and they literally . . . theyd skip over me 38 when it was my time to talk, or cut me off, and I was like, This place is no different, you guys 39 dont understand my struggles because you cant understand that as people we really are just 40 the same, were all going through our own struggles.  And they cant respect that.  41 
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AJ: Wow.  So my knowledge of the group, its primarily . . . its heavily female identified trans 43 people.  Is that accurate? 44 
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AW: No, theres two.  Theres one thats . . .  46 
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AJ: Two groups? 2 
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AW: Two groups.  One is women identified, one is male identified. 4 
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AJ: OK, so you were going to the male identified group and still feeling this sort of ostracism, if you 6 will? 7 
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AW: Yes.   9 
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AJ: Do you think thats related to your inability to take testosterone and other people in the group 11 are taking testosterone?  Is that a part of it at all?  Is it race? 12 
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AW: No because 75 . . . I think its race, because 75% of the men there still had breasts. 14 
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AJ: Sure, and you didnt. 16 
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AW: And I didnt.  And then even though the majority of them were on testosterone, they still didnt 18 look masculine to me, they crossed their legs very femininely.  I told my life once, Being a man 19 is more than just saying Im a man, its the way you walk, its the way you talk, its the way you 20 present yourself.  And a lot of their characteristics . . . 21 
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AJ: Its the vibe that you present to other people. 23 
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AW: Exactly.   25 
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AJ: So you think it was primarily sort of a racial . . . ? 27 
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AW: Issue, barriers.  Even though Roxanne is the facilitator and a wonderful person, theres still not 29 enough . . .  30 
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AJ: Yes, Roxanne Anderson. 32 
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AW: Yes.  Theres not enough minorities in the group and shes not always there because shes 34 running the business, so usually theres these co-facilitators and actually she had asked my wife 35 to head a group there for spouses and me and wife have a lot on our plate with so many kids.   36 
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AJ: Nine kids  yeah, I think youve got a little bit on your plate.   38 
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AW: But everything happens in its due time. 40 
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AJ: So you havent been very much to this support group then . . . recently? 42 
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AW: Not recently.  I tried going every single week, due diligently tried to go every week, but I felt so 44 out of sorts there. I was just like, Im not going back.   45 
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AJ: OK, wow.  Thats interesting.  Racism affects every part of our society, even within our 1 subgroups and subcultures.  Its sad, and its not to say that Im not sure if they are . . . its the 2 kind of discrimination that impacts your life like youve got to live in a certain neighborhood or 3 you cant get this job, but it is still discrimination nonetheless.   4 
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AW: Well that and . . . by them not being accepting, its hard to say, Accept us, but were not going 6 to accept you.   7 
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AJ: Right.  Its a contradiction.   9 
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AW: Yes.   11 
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AJ: Have you heard about these trans women of color that were just murdered  theres been over 13 20-plus trans women of color who have been murdered in 2015 alone?  What do you think is 14 going on?  What do you think about this issue?   15 
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AW: I think it boils down to theyre de-valued because of being who they are and so the people in 17 authority and in power dont support them and as long as people in power arent supporting 18 them as an important group of people, its hard to protect them.  They cant be protected 19 because this cop over here, his masculinity is challenged.  I feel that thats the same thing with 20 the Black community and the police  its going to keep happening until people get it through 21 their head that were all just people and we all deserve to survive and to live and to be who we 22 are.  And to practice our religions freely without any fear of consequences.   23 
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AJ: Are you a religious person, Alonzo?  Do you go to church? 25 
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AW: I stopped going to church a few years ago.  Im Baptist, I was sending my children to church 27 though still because I believe that there is a place . . . religion has a place in the heart of every 28 child and its our job because there are things that religion will teach your children that its hard 29 to get through to them otherwise.   30 
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AJ: Sure. 32 
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AW: With religion, its touchy because so many hypocrites are in the church.  I stopped into my kids 34 church when they had a whole week focused on gay people and the abomination of them and 35 they were going to hell.  My kids came back home in tears and just upset and Im like, Im 36 teaching my kids how to love people.  When I run across the police, I stop them and I said, 37 Well, Im just trying to give my son an opportunity to meet a cop that is not a bad guy, that is 38 here to protect him.  39 
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AJ: Thats a great strategy.  What do you think about Caitlin Jenner? 41 
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AW: Ohhh, I dont think much of her.  I dont think shes a real transgender person, I think that she . . 43 . 44 
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AJ: Why do you say that? 46 
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AW: I think that shes using . . . 2 
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AJ: You know, as yourself, it is not an easy thing to come out and say, Im transgender.   4 
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AW: Thats true.   6 
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AJ: People dont do that for fake. 8 
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AW: If I had the power and the privilege that she has, I would have had my surgery yesterday.  OK.  10 She never wants to have her surgery and to me, even though she says shes transgender, if you 11 have an opportunity to become who you really are and you dont take it, then theres something 12 more going on.   13 
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AJ: OK, fair enough.  What about the visibility that shes bringing to the trans community? 15 
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AW: But see, I dont think shes bringing as much to the trans community as other people making her 17 their symbol of what trans is.   18 
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AJ: Sure, got it.  Thats pretty interesting, everybody has got their own opinions about these things  20 thats why its interesting for me to ask this question.  Is there anything else you want to share 21 with us today, Alonzo, that I maybe didnt ask?  And actually there is one question that I didnt 22 ask, how has your trans identity impacted your professional life? 23 
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AW: Its made me realize that I have an obligation to educate people, to show them that I am more 25 than just a father, Im more than just a disabled person, Im more than just a husband, Im all 26 these things.  And because Im all these things, its my job to teach my children to be accepting 27 of everybody and for them to be able to go out and to pass that on, to be non-judgmental and 28 non-biased against people and to love people wholeheartedly  to give of yourself even when 29 you feel like you have nothing left to give.   30 
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AJ: Well this has been a fascinating interview Alonzo, I really appreciate you being willing to sit 32 down and talk to me and share some insights into what it means to you to be a trans-identified 33 man and to talk about your beautiful family and your resilience in overcoming so many 34 challenges, chief amongst them becoming comfortable with your truest identity.  Thank you, 35 thank you, thank you. 36 
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AW: Thank you.  This has been good for me. 38 

