 
 
 
 
Spencer Fugate Narrator   Andrea Jenkins Interviewer 
 
 
 
 
 
The Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies University of Minnesota 
September 5, 2015 
 
 
 
 
  

  
 
The Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story, while providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source material about the transgender community.  The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for current and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public. 
The Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300 individuals over the next three years.  Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and experiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality.  This project will be led by Andrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist.  Andrea brings years of experience working in government, non-profits and LGBT organizations.  If you are interested in being involved in this exciting project, please contact Andrea. 
Andrea Jenkins jenki120@umn.edu (612) 625-4379 
 
 
 
 
  
Andrea Jenkins -AJ 1 
Spencer Fugate -SF 2 
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AJ:  Good afternoon.  This is Andrea Jenkins and I am the oral historian with the Transgender Oral 5 History Project at the University of Minnesota Tretter Collection.  Today is September 5, 2015, 6 and I am on the campus of Macalester College and Im here to interview Spencer Fugate.  7 Spencer, can you please state your name, the way it is pronounced  I think I may have 8 butchered it there, and your preferred pronouns, your gender identity, and your gender 9 assigned at birth. 10 
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SF: All right.  I am Spencer Fugate.  I was designated male at birth, my pronouns now are she/hers 12 or their/them and I am a trans woman or occasionally I identify as a trans fem person.   13 
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AJ: Well, thank you so much.  Spencer, can you tell me what is your earliest memory? 15 
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SF: I think my earliest memory was probably around the time when I was two or three my . . .  17 
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AJ: So your earliest memory. 19 
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SF: I think my earliest memory was probably when I was two or three, I know I was at my 21 babysitters house.  The other child that was in the nursery with me had just talked about her 22 great aunt who had passed away and I remember staring into the clouds outside thinking about 23 that great aunt.  Im not sure that there was any revelation but I just remember that happening 24 when I was like two.   25 
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AJ: Wow, thats an early memory.  Tell me about where you grew up.   27 
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SF: I grew up in Tracy City, Tennessee.  29 
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AJ: Which city? 31 
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SF: Tracy City, Tennessee.  Its actually not a city at all.  It was dreamed of being a city but it became 33 a dead mining town and now its populated by roughly 500 people. 34 
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AJ: Can you spell that for me, please? 36 
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SF: T-r-a-c-y C-i-t-y.   38 
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AJ: OK, Tracy City.  Got it.  So thats in Tennessee and its an old mining town? 40 
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SF: Yes. 42 
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AJ: Whats the population there, do you know? 44 
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SF: Its around 500 or 600.   46 
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AJ: And you lived there your entire life? 48 
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SF: Yes, until I came to Macalester. 2 
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AJ: Until you came to Macalester.  So you went to elementary school, what was that like?   4 
SF: I went to elementary school with the same, roughly, 20 children for my entire life, pretty much.  5 I knew every student, I knew their parents, their parents knew my parents.  It was just a very 6 large system of people who knew everything about me and everything that I was was already 7 defined, so that was always odd.  So I just went through small town elementary school with a lot 8 of people that I knew very intimately.   9 
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AJ: So that was a pretty good experience then? 11 
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SF: Ahh, elementary school was . . . I guess its hard to think of it as a good experience just because 13 its so hard to cogitate whether or not it was a good experience  whether I was satisfied or I 14 was just a child and able to really engage in small pleasures all the time.   15 
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AJ: What was your home environment like?   17 
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SF: My parents were much older than the standard fare for the small town, most peoples parents 19 were around 18 or 19 when they started having children and my father was 30 and my mother 20 was 25.  Which, it really shocked me coming to Minnesota and realizing thats more of the 21 standard age to have children.  They were as successful in this small town as they could be.  22 They were above the poverty line and that was successful  slightly above the poverty line but 23 thats as best you could do in a small town.   24 
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AJ: So you felt like you grew up in a pretty middle class household? 26 
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SF: I would say that from the place that I was in, a middle class household. But it was also the most 28 poverty stricken area in Tennessee, so we made $2000, the standard minimum poverty line, but 29 we had a house, which was so much more than so many of my other classmates.  So they were 30 like royalty compared to the rest of the world, or compared to the rest of my educational 31 colleagues  very much like a lower class.  My parents were fundamentalist Christians, and still 32 are, so a lot of who I was as a childhood was defined by going to church and lectures about 33 religion and such like that. 34 
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AJ: Are you still pretty actively involved in the church today? 36 
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SF: Not at all. 38 
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AJ: Not at all.  Do you consider yourself spiritual or any connection to a higher power? 40 
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SF: I think Im still driven by a primal . . . or maybe an uncalculated urge to want a higher power, but 42 I cant justify that with any actual personal connection with a higher power or any intellectual 43 connection.  I just feel like Im desperately seeking that and Im wondering if thats because Im 44 naturally a spiritual person or because I was told that that was the only way to have satisfaction 45 or a healthy life. 46 
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AJ: So youre still exploring and examining that? 48 
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SF: Yes.   2 
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AJ: Do you have brothers and sisters?  Siblings?   4 
SF: No, I was an only child.  5 
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AJ: An only child  wow.  When was the first time that you realized that you were not the gender 7 you were assigned at birth? 8 
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SF: I think looking back on it I realized that I was odd and much more prone to . . . I am much more 10 prone to only engage in activities that were designated womanly or such like when I was playing 11 with toys.  I didnt have the language for it until very late, but I always knew there was 12 something odd. 13 
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AJ: About what age would you say? 15 
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SF: Id say for four or five.  I remember one time that there was a party that I went to and the prizes 17 were . . . Im not sure what the designated male prize was but there was this tea set and I was 18 desperate to have the tea set.  I remember just a long argument trying to get that and then 19 crying a lot because my parents wouldnt let me have it.  I remember that. 20 
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AJ: And that was four or five or something? 22 
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SF: Yes.   24 
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AJ: Wow.  What terms do you use to describe yourself and how has that changed over time?   26 
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SF: Well I hadnt actually heard of trans until two weeks before I came to Macalester, so very late.  I 28 knew what queer and gay were and for a long time Id use those because I knew that something 29 was . . . well, I knew that I was queer and I understood that and I just assumed that everything 30 related to being trans was part of being queer.  So two weeks before I came to Macalester I 31 heard of non-binary people and I was like, Maybe thats me.  And then at that second I was 32 like, Im a non-binary trans person.  And then since coming to Macalester Ive started using 33 trans fem and trans woman as well because I do identify generally more with the admittedly 34 binaristic qualities associated with womanhood.   35 
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AJ: OK.  So its been sort of a progression of terminology that youve been using to describe yourself 37 and try to understand yourself.  What challenges have you faced since expressing your true 38 gender identity? 39 
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SF: I think a lot of it is just that Im not of a class or of a family background that allows me to pass all 41 that often.  So if I make any mistakes when Im going out into the Twin Cities, then I will get 42 harassed or assaulted, and thats happened multiple times. 43 
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AJ: Physically assaulted? 45 
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SF: A few times, yes.   47 
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AJ: Oh boy, Im sorry. 1 
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SF: Im kind of used to it at this point because I still . . . I dont like the ivory tower bubble and I dont 3 . . . when I engage in activism I want to go out in the Cities because I care about the people in 4 the Cities far more than I care about the people who generally can afford Macalester, not as 5 individuals but as a class and as a group.  So I want to still engage in the Cities but that is a 6 dangerous line because when I dont pass that means Im right as a woman and then Im right as 7 a trans so Im not right as a human. 8 
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AJ: What do you think about this idea of passing?   10 
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SF: I dont think that I would want to do a lot of the things that Im doing to pass if it wasnt so hard 12 to live as someone who was not passing.  So I wish that it wasnt required.   13 
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AJ: Do you think that people put too much value into this idea of passing? 15 
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SF: I do wish that it was all based on self-identity and I wish that people were allowed to define 17 themselves and allowed to find their gender in the way that fits them and not what fits society. 18 Passing is pretty anathema to that but I guess it does tie me to a larger trans history of people 19 who were oppressed for their gender identities and not passing.  So I do take some solidarity 20 from that.   21 
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AJ: So, describe your current relationship with your birth family.   23 
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SF: I dont talk to them all that often anymore.  Theyre still vaguely involved with my life and 25 theyre still occasionally . . . we have like phone calls once a month or so.  I know that Im out in 26 some way to them just because of living in a small town and trusting the wrong people in the 27 small town right before I came  that led to me getting outed.   28 
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AJ: So you were outed? 30 
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SF: Yes.  I know that Im out in some way to them but I dont know how much they understand.  I 32 think that thats a longer discussion that will have to be had and I dont know if well continue 33 our relationship past that longer discussion when theres actual honesty compared to deception 34 subterfuge.  35 
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AJ: So you havent talked with them about your gender identity very much? 37 
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SF: Not much more than basic, This is who I am and I can choose to do what I want.  But I havent 39 ever used the proper language and I havent ever really explained it to them.  So Im not sure 40 how much they understand or if they can even conceptualize that this is trans because I dont 41 think they really know what transgender is either.   42 
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AJ: How does that feel to be sort of . . . I wouldnt say estranged, but to have this wide gap between 44 you and your birth family? 45 
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SF: I definitely wish that it could be improved and I wish that I could talk to them about just who I 1 am.  But theres a lot of other circumstances that have pulled us apart over the years so this is 2 just one more thing added to what will pull us apart.  3 
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AJ: Sure. Have there been positive aspects of expressing your true gender identity?  5 
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SF: I think so.  Ive developed a lot of relationships within the trans community, very powerful and I 7 think theres just a connection there that is very hard to find otherwise.  Ive also . . . like 8 occasionally Im out in the streets and if people read me as not passing . . . like a few weeks ago 9 someone came up to me and said, Thank you for being so organic, and then muttered a few 10 things about their brother, who Im assuming is transitioning too.  Its beautiful to see that, so 11 there are definitely positive things related to the expression.  Im also happy with the way I look 12 which is something Ive never been.   13 
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AJ: Your hair looks gorgeous. 15 
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SF: Oh, thank you so much.   17 
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AJ: To the extent that you feel comfortable, Spencer, tell me about any medical interventions you 19 have undergone as a part of your transition. 20 
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SF: I havent yet done anything more than just discussion.  Every time that Ive gone into the 22 doctors office or the Health & Wellness Center at Macalester and actually talked about it, the 23 cost is just too high and my insurance doesnt cover it.   24 
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AJ: Oh boy. 26 
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SF: So right now Im just working on sexually transitioning and maybe if I ever have a stable job, 28 who knows if thats going to happen, Ill focus on the medical. 29 
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AJ: Well I think being a student at Macalester College is going to help you get a pretty decent job at 31 some point in time.   32 
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SF: I hope so. 34 
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AJ: So cost has been a big factor in you getting any kind of medical intervention  like hormones or 36 surgery or any of those kinds of things, huh? 37 
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SF: Yes. 39 
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AJ: Looking back over your decision to start this social transition . . . and can you talk just a little bit 41 about what social transition means for someone who may be watching this and not 42 understanding that term? 43 
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SF: So, what I consider socially transitioning is when I actively make a point to present as feminine 45 away from my designation.  When I use she as pronouns, when I wear clothes that are coded as 46 feminine, when I go through the process of talking in a . . . contouring my face and just giving 47 the appearance of looking like a cis woman.  Thats what I consider socially transitioning. 48 
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AJ: Which is, at least, as important as physical transition and some would argue maybe even more 2 important than physical transition.  Would you agree? 3 
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SF: I think so.  I think that hormones and such can change a lot of my body and maybe make it 5 better, but that wont change how Im read.  I do believe that so much of gender is a 6 presentation and manipulating my presentation is more important than manipulating my body 7 to me.   8 
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AJ: Sure.  So, you think about your decision to express your true gender identity, what have been 10 some pivotal moments that have defined your new life?  Would you have done anything 11 differently? 12 
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SF: Well, coming to Macalester was one, because of the Macalester website.  Theres one section 14 called, LGBT at Mac, which I read shortly before coming here and that was where I heard T 15 for the first time and heard about transgender people for the first time.  So that was very 16 important because I could latch on to that the second I read it.  Then the first time that someone 17 was throwing away all their feminine clothes and gave a few pieces to me  that was just 18 incredible to put on a dress for the first time and look in the mirror and not feel like such 19 dysphoria.    20 
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AJ: So the idea of someone throwing out all of their clothes is known in this community, its called 22 purging, which is somewhat of a common experience.  Do you know about this phenomenon or 23 have you ever experienced it yourself? 24 
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SF: I know a lot of people who have done purging and Ive benefited from that a lot. 26 
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AJ: Cool. 28 
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SF: I feel that I probably eventually will, the only thing that keeps me from purging my old wardrobe 30 is that I still do a lot of jobs that require physical labor and clothing thats considered neutral is 31 coded as masculine, but I have to wear the neutral clothing in order to function in those 32 capacities for physical labor.  So I still have a few things that are coded as masculine, even 33 though theyre mostly t-shirts and jeans, which are not really masculine but in society, neutrality 34 is masculine.   35 
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AJ: Thats interesting.  Have there been any specific persons or organizations that have had any 37 significant impact related to your gender identity?  So you talked about this person who was 38 purging and gave you some clothes, who is that person?  Or can you say? 39 
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SF: Yeah, a person named Ruth.  I knew Z from high school and Z is also going through a transition 41 process and Z and I are really close so we kind of went through the process together and they 42 just threw away their old wardrobe and that was good for me.   43 
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AJ: Yeah, thats pretty awesome.  Have there been any others who have had an impact  people 45 you may have read about or transgender people you may have met? 46 
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SF: When I came to Macalester I got involved with something called the Transgender Identity 1 Collective, which now Im facilitating this year  which will be fun.   2 
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AJ: Great.  Tell me about that organization.   4 
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SF: Its a small, private group for people who identify as trans whether or not theyre out as trans to 6 the larger community.  I started going last year and it was the first time that I engaged in a lot of 7 discussions and dialogue about gender and gender as a social construct and such.  And there 8 was just a very good support base because everyone there was trans so everyone had some 9 relation, if not . . . there were definitely very, very different experiences, but some relation to 10 the trans narrative.   11 
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AJ: So has that been the only LGBT organization that youve been involved with to date? 13 
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SF: Ive also been involved with some of the student organizations focusing on queer issues  Queer 15 Union is Macalesters largest.  Im a fairly active member and one of the co-chairs this year.  16 Thats a much larger organization focusing on celebrating queer and trans identities.   17 
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AJ: Wow, youve taken a lot of leadership roles.  What year in school are you? 19 
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SF: Im a sophomore.   21 
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AJ: A sophomore, and what are you studying? 23 
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SF: Im a classical language and English major. 25 
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AJ: Great.  Whats your thoughts for the future? 27 
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SF: I really want to be become a writer, thats my goal and thats always been my goal and dream.   29 
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AJ: Fiction, non-fiction? 31 
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SF: Poetry. 33 
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AJ: Poetry  wonderful.  Im a poet myself, I dont know if you know that. 35 
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SF: I saw you at Pride.   37 
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AJ: Oh, great. 39 
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SF: Yes, ver moot.   41 
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AJ: Yeah, thank you very much.  But, I was struck by the fact that youre co-chairing multiple 43 organizations and youre involved in the leadership.  What does leadership mean to you?   44 
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SF: I think its a combination of Im willing to try to share stories from marginalized groups, Im 46 willing to try to facilitate that and also willing to be vulnerable and open to both criticism and 47 sharing personal experiences. 48 
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AJ: Yeah, those are some good qualities for a leader.  Lets talk about romance and relationships.  2 How has that impacted your gender identity?  Are you in a relationship now?  And who do you 3 date?   4 
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SF: I guess I kind of fell into the polyamorous label.  Im not sure if thats . . . Im not really 6 connected to a lot of the politics surrounding polyamory and monogamy but I just ended up 7 dating multiple people for long periods of time at the same time, just because Ive lived in very 8 different worlds a lot of the time and Ive had romances that are very powerful but we just live 9 worlds apart so we cant have the same fulfillment  so we ended up keeping the relationship 10 on but still seeing others.   11 
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AJ: So theres an awareness of these partners that you are dating other people? 13 
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SF: Yes. 15 
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AJ: OK.   17 
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SF: For right now Im in a relationship with another Macalester student as one of my relationships, 19 and thats been fairly positive. I dont think Im great in relationships just because I generally 20 allow other people to subsume my personality, which I guess is good if people want to have a 21 partner that raises them up a lot but if someone begins to care about me then they generally 22 see that Im building myself off them.  I dont think Im that great of a partner if someone wants 23 a fulfilling relationship of equals because I generally . . . I will always take the subservient role 24 and thats hard.   25 
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AJ: Do you date male-identified people, female-identified people, genderqueer?   27 
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SF: Everyone.   29 
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AJ: Do you consider yourself pansexual?  Whats your sexual orientation?   31 
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SF: I use bi right now.  It just sounds better just because there are very different levels of attraction 33 and there are some people that Im very interested in just a physical relationship and some 34 people that Im very interested in an emotional connection and some people that I just want to 35 get to know better.  I think that I dont have a lot of belief in sex as a very personal thing, but it 36 can be a way to get to know people and a way to show that I trust people.  So like I use that as a 37 way to show that I trust people.  Theres just very different levels.  So I use bi but it doesnt 38 really capture why I date multiple people of multiple gender identities.   39 
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AJ: Wow, thats fascinating.  Whats life like here at Macalester College being a trans person? 41 
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SF: I think that its probably very . . . its a very good place to be a trans person.  The administration 43 works pretty hard on making it inclusive, at least for brochures and such, so there is a lot of 44 resources available for trans students.  A lot of the initiatives that are designed to promote 45 inclusivity, like saying pronouns at most events, etc., becomes a joke a lot of the times.  Most of 46 the trans people at Macalester are masculine or masculine presenting and there is very little 47 awareness of toxic masculinity within the trans community and thats hard to navigate. 48 
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AJ: Say more about that, you said, toxic male identity within the trans community. 2 
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SF: Toxic masculinity.  Theres just a lot of misogyny from trans masculine people who will talk a lot 4 about how people who are fulfilling whats designated as female or traditionalist oppressive and 5 . . . like actively seeking out their own oppression, and theres just a lot of trans masculine 6 people who are very comfortable taking up a lot of space.  Theyll occasionally acknowledge that 7 theyll silence and interrupt and talk over and ignore feminine people, cis and trans.  But then 8 they wont actually stop ignoring, talking over, or disregarding those people.   9 
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AJ: So, do you see yourself connected to this broader feminist struggle for womens rights at all? 11 
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SF: I think so.  And I think that my experiences more closely mirror that of a cis woman than a trans 13 masculine person, just because theres so much objectification and such that goes on with most 14 cis women and me and most other trans feminine people.  And that is an active, constant 15 oppression but its also an active constant experience where trans masculine people are read as 16 neutral most of the time, so they dont have the same constant oppression so thats harder to 17 connect on that level. 18 
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AJ: Wow.  Have there been any insensitive instructors or medical personnel that youve 20 experienced? 21 
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SF: Most of the counselors that Ive attempted, and I dont put much stock in counseling anymore, 23 have been very focused on using my narrative as queer as only related to sex and when I talk 24 about being trans it will always be brought back to who do I sleep with and why do I sleep with 25 them.  Thats, most of the time, useless and occasionally . . . occasionally when Im trying to get 26 past it, if Im talking about experiences with sexual assault or something, then Im like, Can we 27 please talk about why Im here, these trans issues, and theyll keep bringing it back to that and 28 thats actively harmful when its an experience I dont want to bring up.  So thats been an issue 29 with counselors. 30 
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AJ: Sort of erasing your feminine identity.   32 
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SF: Yeah.   34 
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AJ: Speaking of erasure, have you heard anything about this new Stonewall movie thats coming 36 out? 37 
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SF: Yeah. 39 
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AJ: What are your thoughts about it?   41 
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SF: Im not surprised that Hollywood had a cis white person as the primary representative of 43 Stonewall.  Im really disappointed, especially because people from Stonewall are still alive.  I 44 dont expect people to erase living people, but I guess they did.   45 
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AJ: How about the phenomenon that is Caitlyn Jenner?  Any thoughts about her coming out or her 47 role in the transgender movement and community? 48 
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SF: I think that she made transgender a household topic and I think thats very helpful.  I would have 2 loved if it was a household topic 13 years ago.  I do think that there are a lot of unrealistic 3 expectations that come with Caitlyn Jenner.  Shes absolutely gorgeous and shes rich enough to 4 do the transition instantly and now a lot of trans feminine people are expected to do that or just 5 not cis women, which very few people have access to the capital that Caitlyn Jenner has and it 6 takes a lot to do what Caitlyn Jenner did in as short of time as she did.   7 
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AJ: Sure.  You think she can be a powerful spokesperson for the injustices that trans communities 9 face? 10 
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SF: I hope so.  I hope that she is a powerful spokesperson for the injustices that trans upper class 12 white people face, but thats one way that Caitlyn Jenner can go.  But Im hoping that she will 13 speak for more than just her specific strata.   14 
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AJ: Are you familiar with Jazz Jennings? 16 
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SF: Oh yeah. 18 
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AJ: Yeah, what do you think about her?  She has a new reality show too. 20 
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SF: I havent heard about the reality show yet, but once again I think that celebrities have such a 22 powerful tool to encourage dialogue and to humanize us and Im very grateful for anyone who 23 does work to humanize us and I hope that it works to humanize everyone and not just a specific 24 strata, but every celebrity.   25 
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AJ: Sure.  So, you mentioned that you havent fully come out to your parents yet, but how about to 27 some of your friends?  Have you come out to your friends and what has that been like?  What is 28 your coming out story? 29 
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SF: So I think that just by the time I came out it was fairly easy for me to escape a lot of the negative 31 repercussions of coming out because it was right before I went to college and I came out the 32 second I came to Macalester.  So at Macalester, no one has not known me as trans.   33 
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AJ: Thats cool. 35 
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SF: At home there were only three or four people that I came out to as trans.  I had come out as 37 queer to everyone who I knew at school. 38 
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AJ: How did that go? 40 
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SF: it was probably as best as it could go.  I went to a boarding school so I was very disconnected 42 from my family there too. 43 
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AJ: In a different state? 45 
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SF: No, it was nearby but still just a different . . .  47 
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AJ: Your own little world. 1 
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SF: Yeah.  And it was also a very liberal boarding school compared to the sea of conservitivancy.  So 3 that went OK, it wasnt as horrible as many of the other people that had faced queer oppression 4 that I knew.  There were only three or four people that I came out as trans to but that was 5 because I had already left and there were only three or four people that I would continue having 6 a dialogue with actively compared to just seeing them whenever I went home.   7 
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AJ: So it was a fairly good experience coming out.  But you mentioned earlier that you were outed 9 to your family.  How did that feel?  Did you feel betrayal?  Did you feel happy that somebody 10 said it for you?   11 
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SF: I guess I felt betrayed but Im not actually sure who outed me, so Im not sure who did that.  13 Also . . . it was pretty terrifying because I just didnt know if I was going to end up disowned or 14 not, or kicked out at that moment.  That was fairly traumatic but just by being as passive as 15 possible, and also obfuscating the issue as much as possible, I managed to get through that.  I 16 think it probably created a lot of issues just because there was definitely a lack of honesty and 17 all they know is that Im not their son as they imagined.  But because they just dont understand 18 it and because I have the capability to use language that they dont really understand, it wasnt 19 as bad as it could be.   20 
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AJ: Good.  Can you tell me about the first time you ever met a trans person and what was that like?   22 
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SF: I think the first time I met someone that I knew was trans, who didnt come out until after Id 24 known them for a while, was when I came to Macalester.  The first Q meeting of the year, or 25 Queer Union meeting of the year, there was the go-around and someone that I met . . . we went 26 around with the go-around, like name and pronouns, and someone used they/them instead of 27 she or his, and I also used they when it got to me but that was a decision I made because of the 28 other person who said it and I read the other person as what I thought a trans person would be.  29 And then afterwards we talked and they invited me to join the Trans Identity Collective and that 30 was a very powerful experience to me, even though it was a very brief meeting, just because 31 there were so many people in the room but I knew someone and I could define my identity by 32 them and that was good.   33 
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AJ: Thats awesome.  Were you around when Janet Mock came to campus? 35 
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SF: No, that was the year before me. 37 
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AJ: Oh, you missed a treat.  She was really quite something on campus here.   39 
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SF: Laverne Cox is coming though  this year. 41 
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AJ: Is that right?   43 
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SF: Yeah. 45 
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AJ: When is that happening?   47 
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SF: Sometime later this fall, so Im really excited. 1 
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AJ: Well please keep me informed.   3 
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SF: Definitely.   5 
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AJ: What do you think the relationship is between the LGB and the T? 7 
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SF: I think that most of the times when Ive heard LGBT, its used as an effort to be more inclusive 9 but really just ignoring the trans people completely.  So many articles that Ive read are issues 10 the LGBT community faces and then it just talks about sexual orientation.  So I think that there is 11 a very big disconnect between trans and LGB.  I do think that there are generally more powerful 12 allies than cis gender heterosexual people just because by the virtue of being LGB theyre not 13 gender conforming in the straight sense of societal norms and I think that that is a bridge for 14 connection and a bridge for powerful collaboration. 15 
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AJ: Do you think that the L, G and B provide the level of ally-ship that is necessary to move the trans 17 community forward in ways that the LGB community has sort of progressed over time?   18 
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SF: I think that they have the potential to do so just because they are much larger communities, for 20 the most part.  I think that they could move forward trans rights, and especially if theres more 21 constant collaborations, just awareness of trans rights in general  like most people would take 22 up the mantle if they knew someone who was suffering from injustice to trans people.  I do 23 think its very, very easy for trans people to be such a rarity that most LGB dont even think of 24 them and I think that if they continue to . . . LGB people could easily consume most of the 25 resources and most of the how work is done for queer rights and leave behind trans people.  I 26 think it all depends on individuals who actively choose to include everyone who is in that much 27 larger umbrella compared to people who just focus on the sexual orientation aspect. 28 
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AJ: Well just the term trans itself is a pretty big umbrella in and of itself.  Do you think there is an 30 agenda for the trans community?  And what do you think that agenda is? 31 
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SF: I dont think thats there is one overarching agenda.  I think that almost every sub-category of 33 the trans identity has their own goals and such.  I think that thats hard and a lot of the times 34 harmful just because I think that a trans agenda that would be successful would be focusing on 35 the people who are most at danger within our broader systems and then working our way up.   36 
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AJ: Who would that be?   38 
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SF: Mostly the stock answer is trans women of color and I think that thats very true and its just a 40 very . . . theres so many sub-categories of oppression that attack so many people and I think 41 that if we focus on bringing everyone up compared to just bringing up the white upper class 42 trans man, then it would be much more helpful for our agenda than not.   43 
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AJ: Yeah, agreed.  Where do you see . . . well, before I ask this question, what has been the impact 45 of you being transgender had on your professional life.  I understand that youre still a college 46 student but you still need to work and earn some income, maybe as a work study student.  Has 47 your trans identity had any impact on your ability to get jobs at all? 48 
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SF: Ive mostly worked within the Macalester College or with other liberal arts institutions so I think 2 that that is a very unique area where my identity hasnt actively harmed me.  When Ive applied 3 for other jobs and such, there are times when Im not given an application or Ive seen people 4 just throw away my application before.  So I think it has defined what my career paths will be 5 and it has to be in a very specific strata if I want to actually have a career or job. 6 
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AJ: Wow.  Where do you see the trans community in 50 years, Spencer? 8 
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SF: Oh wow.  I do believe that more and more people are coming out as trans and there is more and 10 more awareness for the trans community, at least within the United States and Western Europe 11 and a few other places where its more safe to be trans.  I think that, for the most part, thats 12 very powerful and just the fact that Caitlin Jenner and Ruby Rose and a couple of other people 13 who do identify as trans are in the public consciousness and theyre actually talked about and 14 Miss Major is now actively talked about compared to ignored and pushed aside.  And I think that 15 that shows that the trans community is moving forward and I think in 50 years people will be 16 able to talk about trans people in the same way that people are able to talk about and 17 acknowledge gay people or lesbians or bisexuals within liberal America.  I do think that there will 18 be very big pockets of oppression, I do think that a lot of old world traditions will not ever 19 disappear, and I think that . . . 20 
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AJ: Old world traditions like . . .? 22 
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SF: I guess like southern traditions of just ignoring trans people and eventually theyll go away or 24 Christianity, fundamentalist Christianity . . . the constant dichotomy between fundamentalist 25 Christians and people who are queer and trans.  I dont think that those will ever disappear as 26 issues and I dont think that there will be strong bridges across differences there.  But I think 27 more and more people will start talking and accepting trans people and I think that there will be, 28 compared to colleges that are safe to be, there will be entire cities where trans people are safe 29 to live. 30 
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AJ: So you feel somewhat optimistic?   32 
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SF: Yeah. 34 
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AJ: You mentioned Miss Major, tell us who you think Miss Major is and what is your understanding 36 of who Miss Major is. 37 
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SF: I think shes one of the earliest figures that were captured.  The trans community as a force to 39 actually be recognized, I think just the fact that she and Sylvia Rivera were at Stonewall and 40 were leading so much of it was incredible.  I think that she is an early icon from trans history, 41 that if shes not ignored . . . when shes not ignored she speaks a lot for trans people of color 42 and trans people lower classes.  I consider her very important and someone to respect a lot 43 from the trans community.   44 
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AJ: Miss Major Griffin-Gracy.  A very powerful woman.  Is there anything else you feel a burning 46 desire to share about your identity, yourself, your college life?   47 
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SF: I do think that coming to Macalester was an incredible decision for me and I think that it has 1 been such a positive experience for exploring my identity and such.  So I think that there are 2 places where identity exploration is encouraged and it is safe to do so.  I think that I found one 3 and so its just important for me to acknowledge that there are places where I have been able to 4 grow as a person and feel safe and happy about doing it.   5 
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AJ: Thats amazing.  Thank you, Spencer, for spending this time and sharing your story.  We really 7 appreciate it.  Bye-bye. 8 

