 
 
 
 
Andrew Ahl Narrator   Andrea Jenkins Interviewer 
    
The Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies University of Minnesota 
 July 1, 2016 
 
 
 

   
 
  
The Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story, while providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source material about the transgender community.  The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for current and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public. 
The Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300 individuals over the next three years.  Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and experiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality.  This project will be led by Andrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist.  Andrea brings years of experience working in government, non-profits and LGBT organizations.  If you are interested in being involved in this exciting project, please contact Andrea. 
Andrea Jenkins jenki120@umn.edu (612) 625-4379 
 
 
 
 
  
Andrea Jenkins  -AJ 1 
Andrew (Drew) Ahl  -AA 2 
 3 
 4 
AJ: Good afternoon.  My name is Andrea Jenkins. I am the oral historian for the Transgender Oral 5 History Project at the University of Minnesota.  Today is July 1, 2016, and Im in St. Louis Park, 6 Minnesota and Im here today with Andrew (Drew) Ahl.  How you doing, Drew? 7 
AA: Im doing pretty good, doing pretty well. 8 
AJ: Hey listen, why dont you state your name, spell it for our transcriber, and tell me what is your 9 gender identity today, what was your gender assigned at birth, and what pronouns do you use?   10 
AA: All right.  So my name is Andrew Ahl, A-n-d-r-e-w, Ahl is A-h-l.  I go by Drew.  So I identify as 11 male, or as a trans man.  I was assigned female at birth and I prefer he/him/his.   12 
AJ: Cool.  Drew, whats your earliest memory in life?  Whats the first thing you remember?  Dont 13 try to wrack your brain to come up with a gender story, although if your first memory is around 14 gender thats absolutely fine and perfectly acceptable.  I just want to know whats the earliest 15 thing you remember.   16 
AA: It was around four and I was living in Tulsa, Oklahoma at the time.  My parents had split, 17 recently split, and I remember playing outside with the kids, I have a brother who is four years 18 older than me, and I remember being faster than him.  I remember being this little speedy guy. 19 
AJ: Was that a race? 20 
AA: Yeah, wed just race around and chase each other and play tag and I could beat my brother 21 almost every time.  That didnt last long, but yes. 22 
AJ: And you were four years younger than him? 23 
AA: Yes. 24 
AJ: Wow, so you were pretty fast.  25 
AA: Used to be, yes. 26 
AJ: Things have slowed down a little bit now? 27 
AA: Yeah, Im not as in shape anymore.   28 
AJ: So did you say Topeka? 29 
AA: No, sorry  Tulsa, Oklahoma. 30 
AJ: Tulsa, Im so sorry.  So you were in Tulsa.  Is that where you were born? 31 
AA: No, I was born in Arcata, California  so about as north as you can get in California.  Humboldt 32 County. 33 
AJ: Arcata? 1 
AA: Yeah, Arcata. 2 
AJ: A-r-c-a-d-a? 3 
AA: T-a.  So A-r-c-a-t-a.   4 
AJ: Oh, t-a.  OK.   5 
AA: Yeah, I was born there.  Shortly after I was born my family picked up and started moving and Ive 6 pretty much been moving my whole life. 7 
AJ: Wow, why did you guys move so much? 8 
AA: Initially we moved so that my dad could go to school in Tulsa.  He ended up going to seminary 9 there at Oral Roberts University.  And then when my parents had split, I went to live with my 10 mom in California, in the Napa area, along with my older sister and older brother.  And then in 11 4th grade, I went to live with my dad who had, by that time, joined the Army as a chaplain . . . 12 after he became ordained.   13 
AJ: Wow. 14 
AA: So I moved around then because I was an Army brat and then I did time in the Air Force, so I 15 moved because of that, and now Im here in Minnesota.  Ive been here for eight . . . nine years.  16 And Im staying. 17 
AJ: Yeah. 18 
AA: Yeah, Ive found my home. 19 
AJ: Youve found your home  wow.  So you traveled all around the country.   20 
AA: Yes. 21 
AJ: And I would suspect the world, if your dad was in the military. 22 
AA: I did get to go to Germany.  When I was in middle school I lived in Germany for two-and-a-half 23 years.  Did some traveling while we were there and went down to Italy and got to visit Greece 24 and ancient Turkey and Ephesus and Austria and stuff like that.  So that was a pretty amazing 25 experience  to be able to do that at that age. 26 
AJ: Wow.  Elementary school had to be sort of a trip then if you were going to different schools 27 almost every year or so? 28 
AA: Yeah, when you add it all up I went to 13 different schools between kindergarten and graduating 29 high school. 30 
AJ: Is that right?  Wow. 31 
AA: Yeah.  So grade school was a little bit easier because I didnt move quite as much.  I had first, 32 second and third grade all in one school, so that was nice.  But then fourth grade I was in a 33 
school and then fifth grade went up to a different school and then we moved . . . so theres a lot 1 of different schools.  2 
AJ: Was school sort of a bullying place for you?  Or was it a place where you had just really great 3 friends?  What was your school experience like? 4 
AA: It was kind of a mix.  When I was younger, nobody really messed with me  which was kind of 5 nice.  I was a tough . . . at the time, they knew me as a little girl, but I was a tough cookie.  I was 6 really athletic, played sports, and I was smart.  I did really well in classes and I loved school.  It 7 wasnt until . . . 8 
AJ: So you were kind of a popular kid in the early grades? 9 
AA: Yes, if a first or second grader could be popular . . . yeah, kind of popular.   10 
AJ: You werent shunned. 11 
AA: No, not at all.  Fourth grade was when things started to get tough because I cut my hair short 12 and my birth name, Ill go ahead and share it = it was Joy and so I got called Joy Boy a lot.  But 13 keep in mind, I went from living with my mom up to this point, to living with my dad where 14 there were certain expectations of how a girl was supposed to act in the home and in society 15 and me knowing that I didnt really like that . . . that was tough.  I didnt want to wear dresses, I 16 didnt want to stand like a lady  whatever that means.   17 
AJ: Who was more sort of imposing these . . . your mother or your father? 18 
AA: It was definitely my father and my stepmom.  They made me take home schooled Miss Manners 19 classes.   20 
AJ: Really?  Wow. 21 
AA: Yeah. 22 
AJ: So they werent feeling the whole tomboy thing? 23 
AA: No, no.  My dad liked it that I played sports because he played sports but I still remember being 24 on the softball field, loved softball, and I think it was my junior year and I would warm up with 25 my hat backwards.  There was nothing dainty about me and my stepmom would be like, Why 26 cant you just stand like a girl out there?  And I was like, Because Im playing ball, what are you 27 talking about?  So I think they had these preconceived notions of who I was supposed to be and 28 I felt those, and I felt them in school too.  Each year of high school I was in a different school, if 29 you count being homeschooled my 10th grade year.  That was really hard because I couldnt 30 make those connections.  So I wasnt necessarily bullied as much as I just was kind of an 31 outsider.   32 
AJ: So, Im pleased to hear that it wasnt a serious traumatic experience for you.  When did you 33 begin to express your true gender identity?  Or maybe a better question is when did you realize 34 that you were not the gender you were assigned at birth? 35 
AA: I think it was really hard for me to really kind of nail that down, mainly because I lived in a 1 bubble really.  I barely even knew what gay and lesbian was, let alone that transgender people 2 even existed.  So I remember . . . 3 
AJ: Which is not uncommon. 4 
AA: Right.  When I hit puberty I would pray every night that I would wake up a boy.  And then, of 5 course, I would go through . . . because Im a little bit of an analytical mind, and be like, Well 6 how is that going to work out when I walk downstairs in the morning?  But I would pray every 7 night.  I knew that I was attracted to women and that that wasnt OK in my household.  So not 8 only did I know my attraction but I also knew that I didnt feel right in my body, but I couldnt 9 tell anyone.  I didnt tell a soul for years.  So high school, while I wasnt bullied in school, I was 10 still struggling with a lot of self-hate and anger and stress and anxiety.  I mean, there wasnt a 11 week that didnt go by where I didnt think about killing myself, to be honest. 12 
AJ: Oh boy. 13 
AA: I didnt know how to handle everything that I was feeling but I had no outlet.  So, I feel lucky to 14 be here in some ways. 15 
AJ: Were lucky and thrilled that you are here. 16 
AA: Thank you. 17 
AJ: So, how did you cope with that? 18 
AA: I think sports helped, it was an outlet  it was a physical outlet to let out the internal aggression 19 that I was feeling.  I also knew that I wasnt going to live in that house forever and that, at some 20 point, I would be able to get out and figure things out for myself.  I made it, I didnt tell anyone 21 until the end of my junior year and that was the first time I told someone, and that was my 22 stepmom.  I told her that I had homosexual feelings and she . . . they immediately put me in 23 counseling, Christian counseling.  I was like, Well this isnt going to help me really, what theyre 24 trying to do.  And I fought it.  I fought the feelings for a long time.  But yeah, that was the first 25 time I told somebody and then I just shut about it again because I went, Well, that didnt go 26 that well so why am I going . . . I shouldnt tell anyone else.  Yeah.  27 
AJ: And this was a pretty conservative . . . your dad was a chaplain in the military? 28 
AA: Yeah, and he was technically non-denominational but it was a very charismatic Pentecostal  29 like laying on of hands, praying in tongues. 30 
AJ: Oh wow. 31 
AA: Wiping down the pews. It was legit. 32 
AJ: Snakes  were there snakes. 33 
AA: No, no.  I think that was a Baptist thing.   34 
AJ: Pentecostal . . . but certain strains, I guess.   35 
AA: No, we didnt do that.  So yeah, there was very much this . . . I learned early on that 1 homosexuality was a sin and that homosexuals were going to hell.  So I was battling that as well 2  so battling who I am and trying to reconcile that with my faith and my family and society.  As a 3 kid trying to figure that out, it was impossible.  4 
AJ: When you went to live with your father and his new wife, did your brother come along as well? 5 
AA: He did.  So my older sister stayed with my mom but my older brother . . . 6 
AJ: Oh, there was an older sister? 7 
AA: Yeah, I have an older sister  shes eight years older than me.  My older brother, who is four 8 years older, he went with me to live with my dad and stepmom in upstate New York, at Fort 9 Drum.  So he was around through most of this and then he graduated when I was in 8th grade.  I 10 was on my own for high school.  11 
AJ: So he didnt really play a role in, sort of, your adolescent years, if you will? 12 
AA: No.  We were really tight and close until he left and then once he left the house, he joined the 13 Army and then eventually made his way to West Point. 14 
AJ: Oh wow. 15 
AA: I think that he has . . . he had his own stuff that he was dealing with and I think that he didnt 16 understand why I couldnt just keep my head down, do what I needed to do, and just get out of 17 the house  and why I had to rock the boat, even though I didnt actually rock the boat that 18 much.  But yeah. 19 
AJ: It sounds like it was a pretty regimented environment. 20 
AA: Oh yes.  Get up, read out of the Bible, pray for 15 minutes, get ready for the day, go to school.  21 Yeah, you definitely had a schedule. 22 
AJ: Where are you with your faith now? 23 
AA: I am an atheist.   24 
AJ: Do you want to talk about that? 25 
AA: I could.  It took a while to get to this point.  I think I had a hard time because my experience with 26 Christianity wasnt the best.  The idea of faith and prayer just brings me anxiety. I know it brings 27 a lot of people peace and comfort, it doesnt bring any of that to me.  The more I learned about 28 science and the more I learned about people in the world and nature around me, the more I 29 went, I dont need . . . I dont need a God.  I dont need to believe in a book that was written 30 hundreds to thousands of years ago that I just . . . that was, to me, personally their fairy tales 31 can be a little rough of a word to use, but in my mind I look at them as parables  I think 32 parables is the right word.  People use them to learn how to be good people and how to live a 33 good life, but I dont need a book to tell me how to do that.  So thats kind of . . . yeah, I dont 34 know.  I came out as atheist for the first time publicly after the Orlando shooting, actually  so 35 this is really recent that I came out publicly as an atheist.   36 
AJ: Yeah, you bring up the Orlando shooting, that was just two weeks ago.   1 
AA: Yes.   2 
AJ: For viewers who may be watching this 30 years from now, it was a massacre. 3 
AA: It was.   4 
AJ: Forty-nine LGBT-identified people of color in Orlando, Florida, at the Pulse nightclub.  What 5 prompted you to come out as atheist as a result of that? 6 
AA: There were a lot of comments on Facebook about, My thoughts and prayers are with you, but 7 these are the same . . . people say that almost willy-nilly.  Its like its this . . . OK, Im doing what 8 I can  my thoughts and prayers are with you, but there is no action behind it, theres no 9 speaking up for the community, there is no voting so we can have equal rights, theres no true 10 support behind some of that.  I know some people, by all means, they dont have the capacity to 11 do more than that and thats fine, but I felt like I needed to share that, (1) Im an atheist so I 12 dont necessarily believe in your prayers, but then (2) it was explaining to them that because of 13 my upbringing and my experiences, your prayers and the fact that people . . . people wanted to 14 pray so I wouldnt be me for years, I dont want any prayers  I want your action, I want your 15 support.  I want you to go out and do something for me and for my brothers and sisters in this 16 community.  I want people to welcome us not just say were in their thoughts and prayers.   17 
AJ: Thats powerful. 18 
AA: I need more. 19 
AJ: Wow.  So, you say its hard for you to pin down when you first realized that you were not the 20 gender you were assigned at birth. 21 
AA: Right.  I mean in 8th grade I definitely . . . thats when I started doing the praying.  I didnt put the 22 word transgender to who I am until I was 22.  I was serving in the Air Force, I was an intelligence 23 analyst and I was stationed in Hawaii  poor me.   24 
AJ: Im playing the little violin right now.  Poor Drew. 25 
AA: Right. 26 
AJ: Stuck in Hawaii. 27 
AA: I regularly would go to the drag queen shows with friends, now keep in mind this was during the 28 time of, Dont ask, dont tell.  It was a little dangerous to go to these clubs but I was like, Im 29 going because I need to go out and be around my people. 30 
AJ: So you were already identifying as . . .  31 
AA: As a lesbian at the time. 32 
AJ: OK, but not openly in the military. 33 
AA: Correct.  I had friends that knew but I couldnt be out.  I would have been kicked out. 34 
AJ: Commanding officers and all of . . .  35 
AA: Right.   1 
AJ: What years were you serving in the military? 2 
AA: 1999-2005. 3 
AJ: OK.   4 
AA: So I had gone to a drag night and they had an amateur kick-off and two of my friends, both 5 female identified, were performing as drag kings and I was like, Whoa, what is this? And they 6 told me a little bit about it and I had never heard of this.  The thing that still kills me is that I 7 knew about transgender women but I knew no transgender men.  I dont know why my brain 8 didnt think that if you can be a transgender woman then why cant somebody be a transgender 9 man  it just didnt click.  So after that drag show, I was moving soon thereafter  in the next few 10 months, to the DC area.  So I looked up, and I was looking for drag kinds in the DC area and I 11 found the DC Kings, which is a well-known troupe.  They had a resources page on their website 12 and so Im looking on that and there was F to M something or other, and Im like, Whats this?  13 So I click on it and it comes up and Im reading the page and I just stop and Im like, Holy crap, 14 that is me.   15 
AJ: Wow. 16 
AA: Thats me. 17 
AJ: You discovered yourself online. 18 
AA: Yes.  Seriously, thank God for the internet because I probably wouldnt even have known until 19 years later.  I needed that discovery when I got it.  So yeah, I looked at that and I was like, 20 Wow, theres other people like me and there are things that I can do to become more 21 comfortable in my body and to express myself.  So yeah, that led to my first time going out as 22 me, which was when I was still in Hawaii where I bound my chest, I put on a shirt and tie.  It was 23 a hideous shirt and tie.  I look back on it and Im like, Ohhh, the early 2000s new.   24 
AJ: OK.  25 
AA: But that was also my first experience of discrimination within the LGBT community. 26 
AJ: Yes, thats a thing. 27 
AA: Yup.  I walked into . . . we didnt even have our own bar, it was a lesbian bar one night a week on  28 Friday nights down near Waikiki and I walked in and I got some dirty looks, I got some snide 29 comments like, Why are you dressed like a guy?  All this stuff and I was like, Whoa, OK.  But 30 then I had a couple of friends that . . .  31 
AJ: Had you been going to this club prior to your . . .? 32 
AA: Yes, I had, so they knew who I was. 33 
AJ: Right, so they knew you and they just disregarded your whole gender presentation. 34 
AA: Yes. 35 
AJ: Not only disregard it, disrespected. 1 
AA: Yes, yes.   2 
AJ: Were these mostly women or guys? 3 
AA: Yes, it was mostly women.  There werent very many guys actually who went to that club at the 4 time.  So yeah, that was kind of tough to handle but then I had a couple of good friends there 5 that said, you know, basically, screw them, dont listen to them, be you.  So, yeah.  But then, 6 keep in mind I was still in the Air Force and realizing Im transgender and I still had three years 7 left to serve.  So I had to make a decision, Am I going to raise my hand and out myself and get 8 out of the military?  Or, Am I going to honor the commitment that I originally made and stick it 9 out?   10 
AJ: Sure. 11 
AA: And put off any sort of transition and me trying to become myself for three years.  I ultimately 12 decided to stick it out and honor my commitment and finish my six-year enlistment. 13 
AJ: Wow, thank you for your service. 14 
AA: Thank you. 15 
AJ: Particularly under duress.  I know the struggle of being a trans-identified person and thats some 16 pretty intense internal turmoil. 17 
AA: It was.  I think in some ways it ultimately ended up being a really good thing because it gave me 18 time to process before jumping into anything and allowing me to just really become comfortable 19 with my identity in a lot of ways.  I know some people that it clicks for them and theyre full-20 bore, straight ahead and Im like, Whoa, are you talking to anyone?  Theres things to think 21 about. 22 
AJ: No, just want my hormones. 23 
AA: Exactly.  I think it was good for me to be able to really have time to process that.  So while I was 24 still serving, when I moved to DC I joined the DC Kings, I was a drag king. 25 
AJ: Really? 26 
AA: Yes, my stage name was Oliver Town.   27 
AJ: All Over Town or . . .? 28 
AA: Oliver Town.  My character was kind of a promiscuous gay boy.   29 
AJ: Wow.  Do you have any photos from that experience? 30 
AA: I do, I have a few out there that are really embarrassing.  I can never run for public office. 31 
AJ: Oh, I think you probably could. 32 
AA: I dont want to.  But yeah, that was actually kind of a lifesaver for me, to have that outlet to 33 express myself where I couldnt during my daily life  I had that.  And through that I was able to 34 find other trans guys and start to learn more about resources in the area and people and kind of 1 what the whole transition process could look like.   2 
AJ: So you moved to DC?  Or you were stationed there. 3 
AA: I did.  I was stationed at Fort Meade, Maryland.   4 
AJ: Because youre doing this intelligence analyst you said.  What do they do? 5 
AA: I cant actually get into that too much.  But my first duty assignment when I was in Hawaii, I was 6 monitoring missions.  It was very tactical.  You have three minutes to get a report out.  It was 7 pretty intense.  And then when I was in the DC/Baltimore area I was at Fort Meade and I was 8 working at the National Security Agency doing counterterrorism, which was much more 9 strategic and I cant say . . . 10 
AJ: NSA, wow. 11 
AA: Yeah.   12 
AJ: Thats pretty high level stuff, Drew. 13 
AA: It was pretty interesting work, pretty rewarding as well.  But when my six years were up, I was 14 ready to get out. 15 
AJ: Are we doing a good job?  Are we tracking whats happening around the world? 16 
AA: I have nothing to do with any of that anymore.  I do like to try and keep up on whats going on in 17 the world but Im so far removed from that job. 18 
AJ: Is it a professional agency?  Are people really into their jobs  theyre doing their thing? 19 
AA: Yes, absolutely.  The people there . . . it was actually pretty interesting because I worked for 20 civilians even though I was in the Air Force, and that was pretty cool because they didnt care if I 21 was a lesbian or if I was trans or whatever.  They were like, Whatever, youre good at your job 22 and thats all we care about. 23 
AJ: So you were able to express yourself once you began to kind of connect with the DC Kings.   24 
AA: Yes. 25 
AJ: I want to ask you, because this has been an issue that has been sort of publicly discussed and 26 debated as well as its just been a question for me personally because . . . I came out in the drag 27 community and that was sort of my place for comfort and learning and growth and 28 development and community.  But there is a pretty strong vocal movement to a) remove drag 29 identity, drag culture from the transgender umbrella . . . sort of starting with the . . . I dont 30 know how I want to phrase this . . . debasement or disavowment of RuPaul and Drag Race and 31 she-male and tranny and all of this language, but its an interesting phenomenon to me and Im 32 just wondering how you feel having sort of grown up in the drag community.  Do you think drag 33 identity or drag culture belongs under the transgender umbrella? 34 
AA: I think that they are two separate . . . I think they are two different things because even as a 1 transgender person who is performing in drag, drag is, in my opinion, its just an over the top 2 expression of masculinity or femininity or whatever youre trying to . . . its totally over the top. 3 
AJ: Sure. 4 
AA: So Ive known of troupes that were trans inclusive, Ive known of troupes that were not.  Ive 5 known troupes that have had performances that I thought were very disrespectful to the trans 6 community.  So I think that there is a way where you can still have drag and still have it be 7 respectful to the trans community.  I am not a fan of the term tranny, I think its horrible, and so 8 when weve got drag queens, or kings  in my experience it tends to be  more on the drag queen 9 that Ive noticed this, where these are not trans women, these are drag queens that are using 10 tranny-this and tranny-that . . . not OK.  So what I think it . . . I have a hard time because this also 11 ties into the other idea of there are people on the LGB that dont think the T should be on there 12 and people in the trans community that dont feel that we should all be lumped together either. 13 
AJ: Yeah, absolutely. 14 
AA: I think this all kind of gets woven in together and its hard to separate all that.  I think were 15 stronger together, personally.  I do.  While gender identity and sexual orientation are two 16 different things, I know that I felt like I had a home within the LGBT community.  I felt like 17 people understood what it was like to be ostracized and to be put down for who you are, 18 whether its your sexual orientation or your gender identity.  I feel like we can come together to 19 try and accomplish goals. 20 
AJ: Well and the broader community doesnt distinguish, right? 21 
AA: Right. 22 
AJ: They see a trans man and they call you a dyke or they see a drag queen and they call him a 23 faggot.   24 
AA: Right. 25 
AJ: Or a trans woman. 26 
AA: Right. 27 
AJ: In fact, I would argue that a lot of the violence that happens to the LGBT community happens 28 because people are transgressing gender norms. 29 
AA: Yes. 30 
AJ: Much more than who they are sleeping with. 31 
AA: Absolutely. 32 
AJ: Basically nobody really knows who youre sleeping with unless you tell them.  But if a guy is sort 33 of swishing down the street then he, and he is dressed sort of flamboyantly or not how men 34 are expected to dress in our culture and society, then they become targets.  So . . . yeah.  35 Theres a strong case for stronger together.  But I want to go back a little bit to the club in 1 Waikiki because you were ostracized by the lesbian community. 2 
AA: Yes. 3 
AJ: How did that eventually play out?  Did you just stop dressing when you went out to this club?   4 
AA: Yeah, I didnt bind anymore.  I always dressed on the masculine side but I had taken it . . . 5 apparently I had crossed a line.  I dont know.  So I stopped doing that.  I went, Well, Im almost 6 out of here, Ive only got a few months left, Ill deal with this when I get to DC.  But even there, 7 because I joined the DC Kings it wasnt really an issue there, but I remember after I stopped 8 performing and I had gotten out of the Air Force and was working at this little hole-in-the-wall 9 bar that was redneck by day and gay by night. 10 
AJ: Oh wow, thats interesting. 11 
AA: Bizarre. 12 
AJ: And you worked there? 13 
AA: Yeah, I was bartending.  There were two lesbians that had come up from DC and they didnt 14 understand why I couldnt just be a butch dyke and Im like, Well, thats not who I am and Im 15 not actually that good at being butch.  So I was like . . . I had to convince them that I am 16 legitimately who I am and that is ridiculous.  But I was like, You know what?  Im going to take 17 the time to explain this to them and Im going to hopefully convince them that no, not all the 18 young butchies are turning trans, thats not whats happening and that they need to be able to 19 accept peoples identities when they express them.  By the time the conversation was over, they 20 looked at me and went, OK, we get it.  For me  now I dont know how they reacted to any of 21 the other trans guys after that, but for me  they believed me.  I was like, Wow, that took a lot 22 of work, I dont want to have to work that hard to convince somebody that I am who I am.  But 23 I have, on occasion, had to do that. 24 
AJ: Really?  Wow.  Well, good on you for doing that.  Im just not interested in that anymore.  Its 25 like, This is who I am, if you dont believe me I have no energy and time to convince you.  26 
AA: I think now my outward expression, people generally identify me how I identify anyway and so 27 that helps  I dont have to have those conversations as much anymore.  But back then . . . I had 28 just started testosterone. 29 
AJ: Oh, I completely understand the conundrum of being a baby trans person and . . .  30 
AA: Yes, its a hard space.   31 
AJ: Sort of that in-between world, if you will. 32 
AA: Yes.   33 
AJ: So, speaking of which, to the extent that you are comfortable, talk about medical interventions 34 that you have been on. 35 
AA: Sure.  So, as soon as I got out of the Air Force, I was working for Noodles & Company, thats a 1 restaurant.  I wasnt making a whole lot of money so I went to Whitman-Walker in DC, which is a 2 community health center.  They had a womens center that had therapists that would work with 3 trans people, so I was able to start that.  So prior to any surgeries or hormones I went through 4 the proper steps and saw a therapist.  After three months, shes like, Check  youre good, you 5 can start hormones.  So Ive been on hormones since summer of 2006, so 10 years actually.  I 6 just hit my 10-year mark. 7 
AJ: Its working, man.  The beard thing is pretty cool. 8 
AA: My Amish beard?  I cant grow anything here but a bad teen mustache.  My wife is like, Dont, 9 just dont.  So I wanted desperately to do top surgery for a long time but the money wasnt 10 there and my insurance didnt cover it.  And so I was . . . this is kind of random, but I ended up 11 being diagnosed with thyroid cancer.  I had been diagnosed with Hashimotos while I was in, 12 which is a thyroid disease, when I was in the Air Force.  They missed the cancer.   13 
AJ: Hashimotos . . . do you know . . .? 14 
AA: Hashimotos, its a . . . oh crud, Im trying to think of the right term.  Its where the body attacks 15 itself.  I had nodules and a goiter.  I had an enlarged thyroid, I was having potential health issues 16 because of that.  So when I moved here to Minnesota, a doctor was like, You should go get that 17 checked out.  So I get it checked out, this is a long story  sorry. 18 
AJ: No, thats fine. 19 
AA: I ended up getting it removed because they found cancer.  So I had my thyroid removed.  Well I 20 then was like, Well, Im going to submit for VA compensation because the Air Force missed 21 this.  I had cancer for at least five years and didnt know.  So I submitted through the VA and 22 they gave me disability because of that and some other stuff.  The first year they gave me 100% 23 and its been knocked down to 20% now that Im on a maintenance program.  But that money 24 that I got for that first year with that disability paycheck paid for my top surgery. 25 
AJ: Because its sort of a retro, right? 26 
AA: Right, it was retroactive.  Yes.  So from the time that I had applied.  I wouldnt have had my top 27 surgery otherwise.  So the VA essentially ended up paying for it, which I kind of like.  I thought 28 that was kind of a nice little twist of fate.  So I had my top surgery with Tholen here in 29 Minnesota and that was . . .  30 
AJ: T-h-o-l-e-n, Dr. Tholen. 31 
AA: Correct, yes.  And that was in . . . crap, when did I have that?  It was 2009, I think.  Yeah  it was 32 2009 . . . or 2010.  No, spring of 2010.  And so Ive had that.  I need some revisions but overall 33 love it.  It was one of the best things that ever happened to me, just being able to feel 34 comfortable in a shirt and being able to walk into an interview and know that Im not bound and 35 uncomfortable and summers are way easier. 36 
AJ: You can actually breathe. 37 
AA: Right.  So Im actually looking at bottom surgery as well. 38 
AJ: Really?  OK. 1 
AA: Yes, my wife and I are having discussions around that.  Im not 100% certain exactly what Ill do.  2 Im leaning towards RFF, which is Radial Forearm Flap Phalloplasty. 3 
AJ: Radial Forearm Flap? 4 
AA: Yes.  5 
AJ: Describe that. 6 
AA: So, essentially . . .  7 
AJ: I know what it is but . . .  8 
AA: Fair enough.  Essentially what they do is I would have to have laser hair removal on my forearm 9 and then they would graft, they take skin and tissue off my forearm to them create a phallus 10 and then within that they can do erectile devises in there, they can lengthen the urethra, they 11 can do testicular implants.  And then, obviously, as part of that I would do a vaginectomy and 12 get rid of all the stuff I dont need and dont want.  The thing with that though is its expensive  13 for me its not, my company actually has really amazing trans-inclusive health care. 14 
AJ: What? 15 
AA: Yeah. 16 
AJ: What company do you work for? 17 
AA: For Target. 18 
AJ: Is that right?  And they cover fully . . . trans related . . .? 19 
AA: Yes, with no lifetime max.  They cover everything from what Ive just described, they cover facial 20 feminization surgery.  Basically if your doctor and you decide that you need this as part of your 21 transition, theyre pretty much going to cover it. 22 
AJ: Wow, thats pretty incredible.   23 
AA: It is.  I worked with a few people there to really push for increased coverage.   24 
AJ: So you helped to bring this . . .  25 
AA: I was one of the people, yes.  Ive done a lot of work there to educate people on trans issues and 26 trans health care and things like that. 27 
AJ: Thats incredible.   28 
AA: Its been a passion of mine and Ive loved it.  Its helped me, actually, in my career there as well. 29 
AJ: How long have you worked at Target? 30 
AA: It will be six years in September. 31 
AJ: Wow, thats pretty amazing that that corporation is willing to be a leader on these issues.  I sort 32 of know how corporate culture works  33 
AA: Right. 1 
AJ: And once a really major employer, and sort of corporate leader like that, goes down that path 2 other corporations tend to follow. 3 
AA: Absolutely. 4 
AJ: And there was another big announcement about a big agency that is now going to cover 5 transgender related health care, that is the United States Military. 6 
AA: Yes.  The Department of Defense has finally lifted their ban on transgender service members, 7 which is amazing.  I remember when Dont Ask, Dont Tell was lifted and people were like, Yay, 8 LGBT people can serve.  And Im like, No, T  transgender people still cant serve.   9 
AJ: Yeah. 10 
AA: And theyre like, Oh . . . oh.  Like they didnt even realize.  And so, yeah, now that this has 11 happened, I think about all the people . . . if you were to actually look at . . . I dont know the 12 actual statistics, the numbers, but a significantly higher percentage of trans people are veterans 13 than the regular public, than the average public.  I think twice as many percentage wise, if I 14 remember correctly.  So I know that a significant amount of trans people serve or have served 15 and so for that to be open to them now, to be able to openly serve, it actually lets them serve 16 with more honor than they were ever able to before  which is one of the leading tenets of 17 being in the military is honor and service before self and all these things.  When you cant be 18 who you are its hard to feel like youre being truly honorable when youre hiding. 19 
AJ: Wow, thats powerful. 20 
AA: So for people to be able to do that, I cant even imagine what my life would be like if I had been 21 able to do that when I was in.  I love my life now, dont get me wrong, but I wonder  what 22 would my life have been like if I could have transitioned while I was serving. 23 
AJ: Yeah, because you spent a lot of energy and time hiding who you were. 24 
AA: Oh yes, absolutely.  Im excited, I think its great. 25 
AJ: Thats certainly energy that could have been expended elsewhere. 26 
AA: Absolutely, absolutely.  27 
AJ: Wow, well its a pretty historic moment. 28 
AA: It is. 29 
AJ: I had no idea about the statistics that you stated.  Can you just repeat that so Im clear? 30 
AA: Yeah.  So if you look at the population of transgender people, significantly more of us have 31 served in the military than if you were to look at the average US population and how many of 32 them have served. 33 
AJ: Oh, so the percentage of transgender people is higher than the broader population who serve in 34 the military.  Is that accurate? 35 
AA: Sort of.  Lets try one more time  just to make sure that we got this right.  So say . . . Im going 1 to make up numbers here, but say 10% of the public served. 2 
AJ: Right. 3 
AA: Twenty percent of transgender people have served.   4 
AJ: Thats what I was thinking you were saying. 5 
AA: Yes. 6 
AJ: Well the broader population is so much larger than the transgender population. 7 
AA: It is. 8 
AJ: But a higher percentage, per capita, of transgender people serve in the military. 9 
AA: Yes. 10 
AJ: Wow, I had no idea.  What do you think that is all about? 11 
AA: I know that just . . .  12 
AJ: I think economics is a part of it, I would probably suspect.   13 
AA: I would say too that there is . . . and these are stories that Ive heard and read so Im kind of 14 drawing from that.  I know for trans women that come out later in life, they were fighting it for 15 so long and they thought, Im going to go do this Oorah,  Like be a Marine, be a Ranger in the 16 Army, whatever, be a Navy Seal.  Theyre trying to just shut it all down by being as masculine as 17 they can possibly be. 18 
AJ: Absolutely, yes. 19 
AA: And then realizing its still not changing who they are.  As far as trans men, I was naturally 20 attracted to it because I was raised around the military but then also I kind of like the idea of 21 being Oorah and being able to go out and do fun . . . well, I thought it was kind of fun being out 22 there.  It actually allowed for some masculinity in my life that wasnt allowed otherwise.  So 23 yeah. 24 
AJ: Get to fly drones and all that. 25 
AA: No, didnt get to do that. 26 
AJ: All right, just a little humor to keep things light.  Wow, that is a fascinating stat that I hadnt 27 really heard of.  But I think its a huge victory for the trans community generally because so 28 much of American life is sort of shaped by what happens in our military. 29 
AA: Absolutely.  I mean . . .  30 
AJ: Racial segregation was sort of first abolished in the military, women being able to serve in the 31 military, the internet comes from the military. So many facets of American life, the leading edge 32 has sort of come out of the military.  And so you have to think that that is going to create some 33 more positive inroads for the transgender community as a whole. 34 
AA: I would think so.  Even when you look at gay marriage, same-sex marriage, that happened after 1 Dont Ask, Dont Tell was lifted.  So you have people  gays, lesbians, bi-sexual people, serving 2 openly in the military and realizing that that is OK.  And then we get this ruling . . . so theyre 3 definitely . . . the military, yes  absolutely plays a role in what is acceptable in society. 4 
AJ: Its one of our most conservative institutions that we have as an American culture and society. 5 
AA: Yes. 6 
AJ: Wow, thats a big deal. 7 
AA: It is, its huge. 8 
AJ: June 30, 2016.   9 
AA: Yes. 10 
AJ: The day trans people are allowed to openly serve our country.  Yeah.  So I heard you say a 11 couple of times youre married. 12 
AA: Yes. 13 
AJ: Talk to me about love and relationships.    14 
AA: Yeah.   15 
AJ: Youre married to a woman or a man? 16 
AA: A woman, a cis gender woman.   17 
AJ: So do you identify as heterosexual?  Queer?   18 
AA: Queer, Im so queer.  Theres not a straight bone in my body.  I dont know, I kind of look at 19 people and think . . . people are beautiful and to me it doesnt matter what your gender is, its 20 the person.  It was actually interesting because my wife . . . when I met her, at the time, wasnt 21 my type.  Shes a little more feminine than I would usually go for and she just knocked my socks 22 off.  She was amazing.   23 
AJ: Past tense, was? 24 
AA: No, she is  shes amazing, sorry.  Shes amazing.  I was still living in DC and she was out there 25 visiting a mutual friend and we were hanging out and hit it off and I was like, I like this woman.  26 She had her shit together, I was like, All right.  She was fun, shes gorgeous, shes intelligent  27 pretty much everything I was looking for and I was like, All right, but she doesnt live here . . . 28 oh-oh.  And so I kept calling.  She flew back up here to Minnesota, she was born and raised 29 here, and I kept calling and shes like, Why does this guy keep calling me?  That was 30 Thanksgiving of 2006 when we met, I flew up here in January 2007 to visit.  Thats how she knew 31 I was serious  because I came to Minnesota in January. 32 
AJ: You came to Minnesota in January . . . yeah, you had some intentions. 33 
AA: And I didnt own a proper winter jacket so it was like, Oooh.  And we decided to give it a go 1 and I moved up here that following June, transferred school and job.  Yeah, weve been going 2 strong ever since, got married five years ago. 3 
AJ: Wow. 4 
AA: Im still a little surprised she said yes.   5 
AJ: Well congratulations.  Thats awesome, thats a great story.  6 
AA: The best thing that ever happened to me. 7 
AJ: Wow.  Because, as you know, I mean, many trans people really talk about the difficulty of 8 finding a love relationship. 9 
AA: Yes.   10 
AJ: How do you think that came about for you?  Is there anything that you did, was it about your 11 confidence?  What was that about, if you have any thoughts about it? 12 
AA: I think one, it helps that she also identifies as queer.   13 
AJ: Yeah, that helps. 14 
AA: That definitely helps.  I had already started my transition even though Id only . . . Id only been 15 on testosterone for five months at the time but there was no surprise there.  I was also . . . I was 16 looking to make a move in my life and a change.  I wanted to better myself and I think she saw 17 that in me.  I dont know . . . its hard, its hard to say why something works.  We made it work.  18 Weve turned into this great partnership and its . . . yeah.  Its taken a lot of work, it hasnt been 19 easy.  Everybody has their own baggage that they bring and they have to work through.  Im in 20 therapy and honestly, if I hadnt been in therapy, it may not have worked.  But when you deal 21 with your own stuff and you work together to work towards the same goals . . . yeah. 22 
AJ: Yeah, you kind of have to want it. 23 
AA: Yes, yes.   24 
AJ: Wow.  So, I think you maybe have alluded to this a little bit but was there a specific moment, 25 person, organization that had a significant impact on you related to your gender identity?  You 26 talk about the DC Kings. 27 
AA: Yeah, theres two  for different reasons.  Early on, I would say definitely the DC Kings.  That is 28 how I got to start expressing myself, got to be surrounded by people like me.  I got to go through 29 that roller coaster of trying to figure out everything I wanted to do and things like that  like 30 how far do I want to go with this transition?  I had that group that was safe, I had that safe 31 space.  And the second would actually be Target.   32 
AJ: The corporation that you work for?  Wow. 33 
AA: Yeah, which feels a little weird.  They dont know Im doing this so . . . when I joined, I didnt 34 know if I would come out.  When I got hired there I wasnt sure if I was . . .  35 
AJ: So you transitioned at the job? 1 
AA: No, I transitioned while I was at Noodles & Company.  So I had already transitioned. 2 
AJ: So you were hired as a man. 3 
AA: As a man, yes.   4 
AJ: And you could have just remained stealth and nobody would have known.  5 
AA: Yes, I could have. 6 
AJ: OK, now Im clear. 7 
AA: And very early on I decided to come out and I have been welcomed with open arms, I have been 8 given so many opportunities to grow both personally and professionally.  I honestly dont know 9 that I would be where I am now at Target if I had remained stealth  and just being able to 10 watch how theyve brought me in on trying to understand the transgender community and what 11 they can do to support us and allowing me to have that voice, has really helped me kind of come 12 into my own as an adult and as a person.  I mean, I know Im in my mid-30s now but I really 13 didnt feel like I came into my own as an adult until I had this job and Ive started doing all this 14 work.  I feel like I am where Im supposed to be, which I didnt anticipate in the corporate world.   15 
AJ: Wow, thats pretty fascinating.  Im an activist and I hang around a lot of activists and 16 corporations dont get a lot of shout-outs.   17 
AA: They dont, they dont.   But they have backed me up every time and helped me find my voice.  I 18 am forever going to be grateful for that. 19 
AJ: Wow, thats great.  When was the first time you met another trans-identified person? 20 
AA: And knew it, right? 21 
AJ: And knew it  yes.  Like I know this person is trans, I need to go talk to them.   22 
AA: It would have been with the DC Kings.  I didnt realize that I had known a trans person, a trans 23 guy, while I was in Hawaii  that I had met someone, but I didnt realize that they identified as a 24 trans guy.  I was under the impression that they were a lesbian but then I found out that at work 25 they presented as male.  I was like, Oh.  I didnt know that until like two years later.  But yeah, 26 it was the DC Kings is where I met . . . 27 
AJ: What has been some challenges that you have faced since youve come out? 28 
AA: Well, Ive come out in two different ways.  First I came out as a lesbian and I was kicked out by 29 my family. 30 
AJ: Wow, Im sorry to hear that. 31 
AA: So that was really tough.  I was . . . so I had done a year of college, lost my scholarship so I was 32 back home losing weight to join the military and I had met this lesbian while I was working.  We 33 had gone out on a date, nothing serious happened, but I had written her a letter.  Now keep in 34 mind Im living back home with my dad and my stepmom, who this is not OK for me to be doing 35 any of this, and they found out about it.  I had come home from work at 11 oclock at night and 1 Im like, Why are the lights on?  Whats going on?  I walk in and I see the letter that I had 2 written to this woman.  I was 19 at the time and I was like, Oh, oh no  somethings going to go 3 down.  So I went and sat down and my dad and my stepmom wanted . . . theyre like, Whats 4 going on?  What is this?  Youve been lying, youve been going around our backs, yada, yada, 5 yada.  I didnt even know what to say, its not like I could have been honest with them before 6 that  it wouldnt have gone over. 7 
AJ: You tried and it failed. 8 
AA: Right.  And so they wanted to send me to a Christian Rehabilitation Center so that I could be 9 fixed.  I said, No.  And they kept trying, my stepmom finally gave up, walked off, and my dad . . 10 . so I havent mentioned these siblings yet.  I have two little siblings, a younger sister and a 11 younger brother, theyre adopted by my dad and my stepmom.  So my little sister, at that point, 12 was four.  She was in preschool and it was right before Thanksgiving and they . . . you know how 13 in school theyll have a leaf and it says, Im thankful for . . . And then the kid says and the 14 teacher writes it down and my dad hands me the leaf and my little sister had written me.  Hes 15 like, Youre willing to walk away from this just to go live in sin? That was essentially what he 16 said.  I was like, Wow, OK.  I dont feel like I have a choice because the therapy that you want 17 me to go into is not going to be objective and I need to figure this out for myself.  And so, he 18 gave up, went to bed.  The next day I get up, go to my first job, come home between my two 19 jobs, and all my stuff is packed.  I pull up, now this is a military base, so all the housing . . . its all 20 lined up right next to each other and so people are out in their yards watching this whole thing 21 go down and theyre like, Pull your truck up, were loading it up.  I didnt even get to go in and 22 see if theyd packed all my stuff.  It was just all in the garage.   23 
AJ: Oh my goodness  wow.   24 
AA: So we loaded up and my little sister had no idea what was going down, my little brother was like 25 one-and-a-half so he had no clue.  And my stepmom, my little sister wanted me to say goodbye 26 to my stepmom and I just got right there and was like, Have a nice life.  My dad is crying and 27 Im like, Seriously?  So he tries to hug me and it just felt piteous at some point because I was 28 just like, Fine, why should I hug you?  But Im like, Argh.  Hes like, I know you dont have a 29 whole lot of money but I dont want you to end up on the street, so heres the number to the 30 Salvation Army homeless shelter.  And that was that.  I got in my truck and I drove off.  I dont 31 have a relationship with them now.  So that was my biggest hardship was coming out as a 32 lesbian and that whole thing with that side of my family.  Now keep in mind my mom and my 33 sister, my older sister . . . I had visited them the summer prior and had told them I was dealing 34 with homosexual feelings but, Im fighting it because its bad.  And they just looked at each 35 other like, Ummm . . .  And then they looked at me and theyre like, We love you no matter 36 what.  Whatever you decide, if youre happy, were good.  And that was the first time in my life 37 that Id ever felt unconditional love  was when I was 19.  I think that gave me the strength to be 38 able to say, No, Im not going to go into rehab for this, I need to figure this out for myself.   So 39 my mom has been amazing.  My older sister, my niece  theyre great. 40 
AJ: Awesome. 41 
AA: So then when I came out as trans, I did tell my dad.  I called him and told him.  He didnt get on 1 his pulpit, his soapbox, as much as I expected, but he cried a lot.  He tried to figure out why.  He 2 wanted to know was it something he did, was it because they let me wear boyish clothes, and I 3 was like, No, I wanted to wear boyish clothes because of this.   4 
AJ: Right, clothes did not make this happen. 5 
AA: Exactly.  So yeah, that was what it was.  But I think thats been the hardest  knowing that I 6 dont have that side of the family.   7 
AJ: Thats a big challenge. 8 
AA: It is, but then I am so fortunate because I do have the other side thats been super supportive.  I 9 let my mom rename me.  I had veto power but I let her rename me.   10 
AJ: Really?  So thats how you came to this name? 11 
AA: Yes. 12 
AJ: Was it a name that she thought, If I have a boy, Im going to name . . .? 13 
AA: Kind of, yes.  Because I had called her up and I was like, All right mom, its time for a different 14 name.  You named me the first time, I want you to play a part in this.  And she was like, Well, 15 your dad wanted to call you Eddie, Jr.  And I was like, Hell no.  And then shes like, We both 16 liked Mark.  I was like, I know too many Marks, no.  I dont care what he wanted, what did you 17 want?  And shes like, I always liked the name Andrew.  And so I was online at 18 babynames.com or something because I wanted to know what it meant. I started crying and she 19 was like, Ohhhh, Oh God, whats wrong, whats wrong.  And on that particular website it said 20 it meant, Conqueror of men.   21 
AJ: Wow. 22 
AA: And I went, Thats it, thats my name.   23 
AJ: Andrew, conqueror of men.   24 
AA: Ive seen slightly different versions of it but its essentially pretty similar.  So that was when I 25 came up with my name  well, she came up with my name.  So I feel really fortunate to be able 26 to have that.  My sister, when I came out as trans to her, shes like, Oh yeah, I thought youd 27 already decided . . . already knew and just decided that wasnt for you and moved on.  And I 28 was like, What?  I didnt even know this was a thing, why didnt you tell me.  So yeah. 29 
AJ: What about your brother?  Any relationship with him? 30 
AA: Yes. We get along.  We lived in different states for years but . . .  31 
AJ: But you send cards and . . . 32 
AA: We see each other on vacation here and there, yes.  I dont think he understands it but he 33 doesnt . . . hes like, I dont need to understand it if youre happy and youre not hurting 34 yourself or anyone else.  I dont care  be you.  And he respects my name and my gender.  He 35 introduced me to his kids as their uncle so Im like, All right, youre on board.  Im being 1 respected.  And thats pretty much . . . at a minimum, thats what I want.   2 
AJ: So you and Nicki are legally married? 3 
AA: We are.  We are legally married, I got all my documents changed . . . I havent done my birth 4 certificate, I need to do that, but I had all my documents changed when I did my legal name 5 change.  And so when it was time to get married it was a piece of cake. 6 
AJ: Piece of cake, no questions. 7 
AA: No, and we got married in California too. 8 
AJ: Oh well, yeah.   9 
AA: We went out there because my family is out there.   10 
AJ: In the pretty part of California . . . well, its all pretty but you were up in Napa. 11 
AA: Yeah, we got married in Sonoma.  We found a historic estate that we were able to rent.  It was 12 the best day of my life  amazing, absolutely amazing.   13 
AJ: Sweet.  Lots of wine, I suppose. 14 
AA: Oh yeah, lots of wine.  There was gardens everywhere and vineyards . . . yeah. 15 
AJ: Grapes all over the place.  You know you talked earlier about the relationship between the L, the 16 G, and the B and the T, which I thought was very, very insightful.  What do you think the agenda 17 for the trans community should be going forward?  Theres no right or wrong answer, just your 18 opinion.  19 
AA: Yeah, I think . . . right now I think that just based off of what is currently out there and what 20 were trying to have happen politically, we need equality.  We need legal protections and I know 21 that the last time I checked the Equality Act would do a pretty good job with that.   22 
AJ: And its trans inclusive. 23 
AA: Yes, it is trans inclusive.  And so, we need to make sure that people arent being fired for being 24 trans or kicked out of their housing or being unlawfully detained, or put in the wrong detention 25 facility if they are.  Things like that.  We need to make sure that we have these legal protections, 26 its really important.  When those legal protections happen, because they usually happen 27 sometimes before society is ready, it helps push society to start to accept.   28 
AJ: Yeah. 29 
AA: I know for myself, its been interesting to watch the next generation of trans people come up 30 because Im finding a lot more gender queer people, different pronouns  like they and them 31 and ze.  Initially I remember I had hang-ups around that, Im like, Why do I have hang-ups 32 around this?  Im trans, theyre trans, I should be like totally helping.  It took a little while, I 33 think, for me to try and wrap my head around it because I think we all get stuck in this very 34 binary world because thats what our society and culture has propagated forever. 35 
AJ: Eons.  Its a pretty powerful societal construct. 1 
AA: It is, and I think that the more we can open peoples minds to that, that there is more out there, 2 I think that more people are going to be able to learn to accept - whether if that means us 3 patricating other people.  Now Im not saying everybody needs to do that because one, not 4 everybody is equipped to do that but then also a lot of people dont want to, theyre tired.  They 5 dont want to have to sit there and educate people on transgender issues  go Google, go read, 6 do your own homework, right?  But I also know that we still need people out there that are 7 willing to sit down and have those conversations and meet people where theyre at and try to 8 bring them along and find that common ground to start changing hearts and minds.  And 9 schools, schools are so important.  I think the Obama administration has been doing a lot of 10 amazing things and the more we can get schools to start educating in the classrooms about 11 trans issues and trans rights and how we are people and we just want to use the bathroom 12 safely.  The more we can do that, the next generation is going to change it for us.  The next 13 generation is going to be more accepting and then society is going to have to get on board. 14 
AJ: Wow.  Fifty years from now, Drew, where is transgender? Is it a word, is it a thing? 15 
AA: Wow.  I dont think its going to be a thing anymore by then . . . I hope, honestly.  I hope that its 16 just we all are just who we are.  Honestly, Id be pretty ecstatic if we just got rid of gender norms 17 and gender identity stuff in general.  Why does everything have to be male or female, why cant 18 it just be a toy?  Why do we have to . . .? 19 
AJ: Your company is actually doing work around that. 20 
AA: We are  we are, yes. 21 
AJ: Talk about that. 22 
AA: Actually Im not a part of that so I have to say this on camera, this is my opinion, Im not 23 speaking for Target.  They actually did get rid of the gender identifiers in the toy section, theyre 24 doing some of that in the clothing section and the kids bedding.  Theyre just like a toy is a toy is 25 a toy.  It doesnt matter if its pink, a boy can play with it.  It doesnt matter if its a Tonka truck a 26 girl can play with it. It doesnt matter  a kid can play with whatever toy.  So theyre really trying 27 to break down those barriers.  I was actually really surprised when they did that, because I didnt 28 know that was coming down.  When I saw that, that was one of those moments when I went, 29 We are doing good work here and I know we are going to be on the right side of history. 30 
AJ: Theyre also leading in the bathroom, they are taking some pretty big risks in support of the 31 trans community. 32 
AA: It was really interesting when people freaked out about the fact that Target said, Our policy is 33 that transgender guests and team members can use the bathroom that is congruent with their 34 gender identity.  Weve had that policy for years, it wasnt anything new.  It was more of a, We 35 are reiterating this so that people in North Carolina, because of the law passed there.   36 
AJ: Yes, HB2.   37 
AA: Yes. 38 
AJ: Hate Bill 2  no House Bill 2.   1 
AA: Hate Bill, yeah.  So that particular bill was actually really difficult for people in North Carolina, 2 especially trans people, to know where they could go because it didnt demand that you 3 discriminate, it just said if you choose to discriminate youre covered, nothing can happen to 4 you.  So if I were to visit North Carolina, which is actually where I graduated high school.  If I 5 were to visit North Carolina and I were to go to a bathroom in one store and use the mens 6 restroom, I could be fine.  But then go into another one and use it and somebody could call the 7 cops.  So you dont know where youre safe.  Personally I thought it was really important that 8 Target let people know we are a safe space for you.  And then people blew it all out of 9 proportion and tried to make it this whole safety issue.  Its not an issue.  They are worried 10 about men dressing up as women and going in there and Im like, OK, so what you really want 11 to talk about rape culture, not about trans issues.  So lets have that conversation but they 12 dont want to have that conversation.  But it was hard reading some of those comments. 13 
AJ: Yeah, I can imagine.  Drew, I am just so thrilled to have this opportunity to sit down with you 14 and learn more about your life and your struggles, your joys.  Is there anything that I didnt ask 15 that you want to make sure the world knows about Drew?  Or the thoughts that you have about 16 the community? 17 
AA: I think . . . theres two things that I kind of think about when I think about my journey and even 18 some of the journeys of my friends.  One is I was worried when I came out as trans that I would 19 have to live on the fringes of society.  Im not doing that and it feels good, for me. 20 
AJ: Im in your home and you live pretty nice, my friend. 21 
AA: I married up  lets be real, I married up.  But I look at it and I think this idea of not being able to 22 be a part of mainstream society, its not true.  We can be and we are.  I think its important for 23 the next generation to know that.  I think that they need to be able to see that people . . . you 24 can be whatever you want to be, regardless of what your gender identity is  its like, Go and 25 do it, theres nothing stopping you.  And then something that I realized recently that I think is 26 more common for people that came out when I was coming out  so 10, 15, 20 years ago, the 27 narrative around transgender identities has changed over the years and people are talking about 28 . . . I wasnt born in the wrong body.  Some people arent saying that anymore and things are 29 changing.  What Im realizing is that there were a lot of people when I was coming out, we all 30 had the same story because that was the narrative you had to tell so that you could get through 31 the medical process so you could get your hormones.  How many of us bought into that 32 narrative without actually thinking about is this truly me?  Now years later, Im thinking about 33 that narrative again and I question some of that narrative and I dont know where I land 34 necessarily on all of it but I think its really important that we remember that each trans person, 35 each individual, their journey and their narrative is going to be unique and that were not all 36 going to have the same story.  Its really important to be respectful of that and just because 37 somebodys experience is different than yours doesnt mean its not valid and we need to 38 support the entire trans community.  I know that even within the trans community there is 39 hierarchy sometimes and we need to be there for everyone regardless of their story.  So thats 40 something that Ive been recently kind of thinking about over the last year. 41 
AJ: That is the absolute most powerful way to end this conversation. 1 
AA: Thank you. 2 
AJ: Drew, thank you so much. 3 
AA: Thank you for allowing me to do this. 4 
AJ: Until we meet again. 5 
AA: Yes, thank you.   6 

