 
 
 
 
June Remus Narrator   Andrea Jenkins Interviewer 
    
The Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies University of Minnesota 
 August 5, 2015 
 
 
 

   
 
  
The Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story, while providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source material about the transgender community.  The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for current and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public. 
The Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300 individuals over the next three years.  Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and experiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality.  This project will be led by Andrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist.  Andrea brings years of experience working in government, non-profits and LGBT organizations.  If you are interested in being involved in this exciting project, please contact Andrea. 
Andrea Jenkins jenki120@umn.edu (612) 625-4379 
 
 
 
 
  
Andrea Jenkins  -AJ 1 
June Remus  -JR 2 
 3 
 4 
AJ: So, hello June. 5 
JR: How are you this morning  or this afternoon?   6 
AJ: Im very well, thank you so much.  My name is Andrea Jenkins and I am the oral historian for the 7 Transgender Oral History Project and today I am here with Ms. June Remus.  We are in south 8 Minneapolis at All Gods Childrens Church.  Today is September 2, 2016.  June, how are you 9 doing? 10 
JR: Im doing very well. 11 
AJ: Wow, this almost feels full circle.  You and I have done this interview before and I think you 12 were . . . I was looking through my records the other day  you were the second person I 13 interviewed for this project and now, were sitting down again and were almost to interview 14 #100.   15 
JR: Thats an astounding number.   16 
AJ: So June, why dont you just introduce yourself.  State your name and how you spell it and state 17 your identity today, your gender identity today, your gender assigned at birth, and the pronouns 18 that you use. 19 
JR: OK, thats a mouthful.  My name is June Remus.  J-u-n-e R-e-m-u-s.  I am female, post-operative 20 transsexual.  Ive had the surgery.  I was born male and Im from Des Moines, Iowa.   21 
AJ: From Des Moines, Iowa. 22 
JR: Yeah, just a little country girl.   23 
AJ: What was it like growing up in Des Moines?   24 
JR: Hot.  It was hot, it was excruciatingly hot in the summers and it was extremely cold in the 25 winter.  But it was nice, it was a small country town type of atmosphere.  I attended Drake 26 University while I was there. 27 
AJ: Is that right? 28 
JR: Yes. 29 
AJ: Was it a challenge for you . . . or maybe I should even ask, did you come out in small-town 30 America?  And if so, what was that like? 31 
JR: Well I came out as a gay boy. 32 
AJ: OK. 33 
JR: Although I had hints of wanting to wear a dress but my mother wasnt having any of that.  But, it 1 wasnt that hard for me.  It was harder for me being a Black male there than it was for me being 2 a transgender there. 3 
AJ: Wow, why do you think that is? 4 
JR: Well, lets put it this way.  It was harder for me to be a Black male in the Black community 5 because of the color of my skin during those times, which was almost 60 years ago.  Being as 6 dark complected as I was then, I am a lot lighter now because Ive gained weight and stretched 7 it, but you just werent accepted.  I had a cousin and his mom treated him just as bad as mine 8 did.   9 
AJ: So there was sort of colorism. 10 
JR: Yes.   11 
AJ: Within the Black community, and even within your family? 12 
JR: Yes.   13 
AJ: Wow, you were the darkest person in your family? 14 
JR: Oldest and darkest.   15 
AJ: Really.  How many siblings?   16 
JR: I have five siblings and theyre all lighter, because I have a stepfather.  They were treated 17 differently than I was.  After I turned 13-years-old I decided I wasnt going to be treated badly 18 anymore.  Things changed, I changed them. 19 
AJ: What did you do? 20 
JR: I stopped some of the brutality that was inflicted upon me when I was 13-years-old. 21 
AJ: Emotional?  Or physical.   22 
JR: Physical.  Every morning at 4 oclock.   23 
AJ: Every morning at 4 oclock. 24 
JR: I got a beating.   25 
AJ: Really? 26 
JR: Yes.  And then I finally decided I wasnt going to be beat anymore and I told my stepdad if he put 27 his hands on me again Id cut his throat.  So those stopped.  Then my mother and I got along 28 pretty much.  She pretty much followed what he had to say, thats pretty much what women did 29 at that time.  I left home at 17, I got a job working in management for a chain of restaurants 30 there while I attended my first year at Drake.  Then I didnt finish, I left and I came here. 31 
AJ: So what time frame was this, June? 32 
JR: I came here when I was 18.  I graduated Des Moines Tech and I hopped the fastest thing leaving 33 town.   34 
AJ: So what year did you graduate from Des Moines Tech?   1 
JR: I graduated in 1966.   2 
AJ: 1966.  OK. So you were growing up in the 1950s and early 1960s in Des Moines. 3 
JR: Very much so. 4 
AJ: Was Des Moines impacted by some of the racial unrest that was going on in the country or the 5 civil rights movement?   6 
JR: Oh, a lot of it.  They had lynching, they had the Klu Klux Klan there.  Ive seen hangings, they had 7 hangings there.   8 
AJ: Is Des Moines, Iowa? 9 
JR: Yes.  I went to the first white high school there, there was eight of us that went there  four 10 boys and four girls.  It was Des Moines Tech, it was just being integrated at that time.  We didnt 11 have any problems though, they didnt do anything to us.  In fact, it was better being in school 12 than it was being at home. 13 
AJ: Wow.  That is fascinating.  So you integrated the white high school. 14 
JR: Most of the Black kids went to North High  just us went to Tech.   15 
AJ: Just eight of you.   16 
JR: Yes. 17 
AJ: Wow, thats pretty ground breaking.  Was your family involved in the civil rights movement at all 18 or were they just kind of living life and doing their thing? 19 
JR: No.  I think the only part of being involved in the civil rights movement was when I was in 2nd 20 grade.  My teacher came to me and asked me if I should be called Negro, Black, or Colored?  I 21 looked at her, and Id had all this understanding from my family all those years, and they all 22 referred to anybody that was Black as Colored, and I knew no differently.  I said, Colored, and 23 she said, Probably Negro would be better.  I said, Well, Ill ask my mom.   24 
AJ: Wow, the shifting language of racial identity. 25 
JR: But I liked her, she was my best teacher.  I loved her.   26 
AJ: You know, I want to ask you this question later . . . I was thinking I was going to ask you this 27 question later, but youve brought up this concept of language and how communities use 28 language.  I know in the transgender community there has been lots of controversy and 29 conversation around language:  How do we refer to ourselves?  How do other people refer to 30 transgender people?  And one of the words that I know, from my own experience, in the 1960s 31 and 1970s, probably more 1970s and 1980s and 1990s, was the use of the word tranny.  Now, 32 the younger generation has really risen up against the use of that word and Im just wondering, 33 from a generational standpoint, how you feel about that word?   34 
JR: When I decided I was going to be me, I knew about transvestites, and there were lots of 1 transvestites, but they werent interested in being women  they just liked wearing womens 2 clothes.  Transsexual was the only other word I knew.  When I came here, I applied at the 3 University of Minnesota because they had just started that program on having the surgery then.  4 I was only 19 then so they kicked me out.   5 
AJ: Really?  You were too young? 6 
JR: You had to be 21.   7 
AJ: Wow.  8 
JR: But Im not offended by tranny.  Im not tranny now  tranny refers to someone who is 9 transcending, someone who is going towards it.  Ive gotten there and Ive made my claim.   10 
AJ: So you claim . . .  youre a woman. 11 
JR: Im a woman now.   12 
AJ: So youre not offended.  Do you use that language in terms of referring to other people?   13 
JR: No.  I like transsexual because they have a goal, theyre working towards having a full life.  I 14 think tranny is slang, I dont like slang because it tends to slip into something else and would 15 cause me to be very ugly.   16 
AJ: Yeah, I mean . . . thats sort of the reason why a lot of young people are very against the use of 17 that term. 18 
JR: I think a lot of the terms are misused.  I was at a meeting in California and they were talking 19 about transsexual and the orator there asked us all to write down what we felt the name for 20 transsexual should be.  There were about 300 people there and there were 300 different names. 21 
AJ: Is that right? 22 
JR: So many people are still confused about it.  When I counsel anybody on being a transgender, 23 transsexual, I tell them you have to decide who you are, what you want to be and how you want 24 to be referred to.  Once you decide that the rest of the world will follow suit.  If you dont know, 25 they wont know either and youll get something you dont like. 26 
AJ: Yeah, its a very interesting conversation and dialogue.  Its sort of similar to the use of the N 27 word in the Black community.  A lot of people within the Black community have embraced, sort 28 of  or reclaimed the use of the word, particularly the younger community and hip-hop and so 29 forth and so on.  Im just wondering how . . . 30 
JR: How I feel about the N word? 31 
AJ: Well, yeah  how do you feel about it? 32 
JR: The N word does not bother me.  Its a derivative of Negro, which means Black.  If they want 33 to extend it to a lower level and use the word nigger, thats their prerogative, as long as they 34 dont say it to me.  But if they dont mind it, I dont mind it either. 35 
AJ: Is this only within Black community or . . .? 1 
JR: To anybody  to anybody.  I know many . . . my brother had a friend and he was white, between 2 them they used to use the word nigger, until he used it on me one day.  He wont do it again. 3 
AJ: OK, so there is a distinction between who is using the word for you. 4 
JR: Well Black people can be mean with using it too  not just white people. 5 
AJ: Absolutely. 6 
JR: Black people can say mean things and mean it.  I usually stop that kind of talk.  When I find 7 familiarity breeds contempt, I can be a most contemptuous person.   8 
AJ: It is a fascinating word.  It can be used in so many different contexts and terms of endearment 9 and terms of affection, but also destruction. 10 
JR: Ive never found that word affectionate  never did. 11 
AJ: There are uses, I think. 12 
JR: I think Ive found that as the races have begun to mix, Ive been with my grandchildren  theyve 13 got white girlfriends, white girls that run with Black girls, and they have been allowed to say the 14 n word a lot.  I dont allow it if Im in the house, they warn them about me.  But I think respect 15 me and Ill respect you  thats all I ask.   16 
AJ: June, Im really interested in this intersection that weve sort of stumbled on here.  Being Black 17 and being transgender, because you stated early on that it was more difficult growing up in Des 18 Moines for you to be a Black man than to come out as transgender, but now youre a Black 19 woman.  How do you think race has impacted your transgender identity or compounded your 20 transgender identity?  Is there any connections there for you?   21 
JR: For me, no.  But I do know lots of people that it does.  I tend to guide the people around me as 22 to how to refer or get my attention.  Im very honest and open with people, I dont have 23 anything to hide.  But, many young people are still hiding, even though theyve decided that 24 theyre going to be trans or whatever.  They just need some bolstering as to be the pride of their 25 relationship with life and family rather than being that black sheep that did not make it to the 26 market.  My children, all my children, are biracial.  All my sons have white wives and I dont have 27 a problem with it.  My grandchildren dont have a problem with it, my grandchildren all know 28 Im transgender.  They call me, Big Mama, but other than that, they have . . . Ive found that 29 my grandchildren have embraced the openness of our family unit and Ive found that I have 30 seven granddaughters that are lesbians. 31 
AJ: Really? 32 
JR: Yeah, really surprising to me too?  Because they all have kids, they all have kids. 33 
AJ: That is quite fascinating.   34 
JR: So when I look at them, I have pride that they had the stamina to do what they wanted to do 35 and they knew there wasnt that stigma that would follow them, that judgmental thing that 36 
some families will put on children.  I dont allow that.  I talked to their mothers when they were 1 little, Ill talk to them when they get big and their children are growing.  You dont bring it to the 2 table if its not something that you want to eat.   3 
AJ: Wow, good advice.  So were sitting here in All Gods Childrens Church and I know that for some 4 time this has been your church home.  How have you been able to reconcile some of the church, 5 and Im not speaking specifically of this church because I know that this is an open and affirming 6 church, but the broader concept of church has been very hostile to lesbian, gay, transgender, bi-7 sexual people, and particularly to transgender people.  How have you been able to reconcile 8 those two dichotomies and what role does faith and spirituality play in your life? 9 
JR: Well, for one I was raised in the church.  I was raised in the Church of God In Christ, which is a 10 rather strict church.   11 
AJ: They call it Holy Roller Sanctified Church. 12 
JR: Thats it.  My last husbands grandmother was a pastor of a Methodist Church, this was in 13 Chicago.  They were very open and accepting of me.  I was married to him for 20 years, but any 14 church I go to, I do speeches at churches.  Ive had churches contact the church here and ask me 15 to come out and talk to their membership about transgender or LGBT subjects.  I have been to 16 Hennepin Church over in . . . I guess its Columbia Heights . . . not Columbia Heights, anyway 17 they have had me over there a couple of times and Ive gone to churches in Richfield and 18 Bloomington here, just explaining what transsexual is.  Its better that they have a better 19 understanding of what it is, not what they hear on the street  but they hear it straight from the 20 horses mouth.  My whole thing is to make that transition from family a much better thing for 21 young people.  Ive found if youre more honest with your parents in the beginning instead of 22 just having it pop up, theyre a little more understanding.  I tell my children, Do not try to 23 explain it to your parents because you dont even know, have them go to somebody who does 24 know.   25 
AJ: Yeah, thats pretty good advice.   26 
JR: I have a lot of parents contact me.  Ive had, I guess youd say partners or wives or husbands, 27 who have contacted me because they didnt understand what was happening with their partner.  28 I can give basics of transsexualism, I cannot tell whats in ones heart, but I can always help them 29 through those hurdles at first.   30 
AJ: What are some of the basics? 31 
JR: Some of the basics is people want to be accepted, it does not happen.  You have to work at it, 32 like anything else.  Ill tell them if they believe that youre a male and you decide to change, the 33 people that thought you were a male are still going to think youre a male.  I had . . . when I go 34 back to Iowa and I see family, occasionally Ill get someone who will slip through the crowd and 35 will want to get into a corner with me and theyll say, Youre the man, arent you?  And Ill look 36 at them and Ill tell them, No, but I could be if you dont get out of my face.  But the idea is if 37 you seem weak theyll chase you, if you seem strong theyll leave you alone.  And Im the 38 strongest person youll ever see.   39 
AJ: So one of the basics of being transgender is to be confident. 40 
JR: Thats it  confident in what you do and what you say, and never lower your standards.  1 Standards are a real big thing with transgenders.  I try to talk to the young people that I work 2 with and getting a job, a real job . . . I dont care if its at McDonalds, you can start at McDonalds 3  you can start out being a hamburger person and then end up being a manager and then going 4 on to some other restaurant.  You can build a life, but young people tend to want to have the 5 easy one  it does not work, you always end up in jail or on drugs or something like that.  I 6 buried my sister from that.  My sister was transgender too. 7 
AJ: You have a transgender sister? 8 
JR: Yes.  Her name was DeDe and she died at 33.   9 
AJ: Oh boy.   10 
JR: She had been stabbed seven times and been left on Lakeshore Drive.  She had been beaten and 11 her jaw broke, skull crashed in, teeth knocked out.  She lived through that.  She was a working 12 girl, she worked the streets and she caught AIDS and died.  13 
AJ: Oh goodness, thats a horrific story. 14 
JR: But you know what?  She loved the life.  Nothing could have changed her, I did everything I 15 could.  I gave her training in getting a job, I got her a job, but she just wanted that transgender 16 gay life really.  17 
AJ: Wow, so I mean in my mind, thats sort of where this intersection again, of being Black and 18 being transgender, comes to play.  I mean racism makes it difficult for any Black person to be 19 employed and be a part of our society and then you add to that being transgender, and thats 20 why so many transgender people of color, particularly Black feminine-identified transgender 21 people, face much higher unemployment rates than the broader population, much higher 22 incidents of violence like the one you described with your sister, DeDe.  She was 33 years old, 23 Im assuming this was quite some time ago. 24 
JR: She died in 1988.   25 
AJ: 1988, and so these issues are still with us today.  I think as of today, September 2nd, there have 26 been 19 transgender people of color murdered in the United States. 27 
JR: In my lifetime Ive buried 12 transgender females because their families had rejected them, they 28 had no one in their last hours, and thats been my whole goal in life is to be there for them in 29 their last hours. 30 
AJ: Wow.  Do you do that through an organization . . . ? 31 
JR: No, they contact me  word of mouth.  Or theyll see me somewhere  here at church Ive had 32 people come to me here at church that have passed, that are not even transgender  they are 33 LGBT, they are just interested in somebody being there.  Death is a very lonely thing and to be 34 buried without anyone to mourn you is the most horrific thing I could ever see happen to 35 anyone.  So I do my very best.  I have three others that Im working with now that are close  36 and Im making my plans.  Im 70-years-old.  Ive got to make plans. 37 
AJ: Youre so beautiful. 38 
JR: But I have a sister, I have a sister who has got the same mind I have.  My mother was a very 1 loving person but she could just not understand transgender life.  My sister is different - she is 2 very open to everything.  Shes married, shes got children and everything, and shes guided her 3 children in understanding how their auntie is.  I took care of them . . . when my sister and her 4 husband would go to work, Id get up in the morning  we lived in a duplex, and Id go up there 5 and Id go, Get the hell up, its time for you to go to school.  And my nephew would call down, 6 Well Im hungry.  He knew I didnt cook and he said, Well take us out to breakfast.  So I had 7 to end up taking them out to breakfast every morning before I could get them to go to school  8 but they went to school and they both graduated.  I did lose one of my nephews to violence and 9 thats something I had to step in and take care of because my sister was too distraught at having 10 lost her child.  But I found that you have to be there, that stabilizing influence when horror and 11 violence come in your door.   12 
AJ: Hmm, wow.  So June you mentioned that you started at the University of Minnesota, I believe in 13 the Program in Human Sexuality.  14 
JR: You mean the initial 21? 15 
AJ: Right. 16 
JR: Yes. 17 
AJ: And they kicked you out because you were 19.  When did you go back? 18 
JR: I did not go back until I was 30.  I went and I put a $30,000 check down on the counter and I 19 said, Im next. 20 
AJ: Wow.  Did you go through therapy then or . . .? 21 
JR: No, I had a psychiatrist. 22 
AJ: Do you had already done that therapy? 23 
JR: They had refused me because I had a private psychiatrist, they had just told me no.  I had not 24 gone through their program, they werent going to do it.  So I got a lawyer, had him send them a 25 nasty letter, and two days later they called me and told me they had an appointment with me 26 with the gender clinic there.  They did tell me if anybody in that clinic said that I was not 27 acceptable, it only takes one, that they wouldnt give me my surgery.  I said, Fine. Id already 28 been to New York, California, Colorado to check on who is doing what and what the surgery was 29 and what the results were.  I found that the doctor that was here was doing all the corrective 30 work of the ones that were . . .  31 
AJ: That didnt work out in other parts of . . . 32 
JR: And his name was Dr. Markland.  33 
AJ: Dr. Markland.  OK.   34 
JR: And so I went to see him and he said, Well, OK, and he did an exam.  The thing that stopped it 35 was the skin graft.  I was not interested in a skin graft because being a Black person, Black 36 peoples keloid and so if they took a big section of my leg skin off, Id have a big scar on my leg 37 and I didnt want that.  And so he said, Well, no we wont do that.  I think youve, pardon the 1 expression, got enough to do it with.   2 
AJ: Oh wow, OK.   3 
JR: And he did it.  He called me down to his office three days after the surgery and he says, The 4 operation was a success.  I said, Oh yes, thank you.  And he said, Now, Im going to change 5 you back.  I said, Oh no.  But he was a really sweet guy.  The things that the U did for me 6 emotionally and mentally  oh, it was really wonderful.  I think that their screening was a little 7 rough because they did tell me things that would frighten anybody else. 8 
AJ: Like what? 9 
JR: Well, they told me that I wouldnt be a real woman, Id just have a hole with a flap over it.  And 10 they told me, Did I enjoy climaxing?  And I said, Yeah.  They said, You wont get that 11 either.  Im saying, Ahhh, thats not good.  Then I went home and I thought about it and I 12 said, Well, you know, my life has been good, God has been good to me.  If I werent supposed 13 to have it, I wouldnt have the money, I wouldnt have a way to do it, I wouldnt be so set in my 14 lifestyle that I can do it, so Im going to do it.  I called my mother and I told her I was going to 15 do it, as she hung up on me . . . she hung up on me, she slammed the phone down so bad I think 16 she broke that phone.  And then I said, Well, Im still going to do it. The day before I had my 17 surgery the phone rang, I was getting ready to go to the hospital then, and it was my mother 18 and she said, Are you still going through with it?  I said, Yeah.  She says, OK, come get me.  19 I said, Come and get you?  You live in Des Moines, Im not driving all the way down there.  She 20 said, No, Im here at the bus station, come get me.  I cant let my child go through this without 21 me. 22 
AJ: Wow.   23 
JR: From that day she never, ever uttered my male name again  even when she was comatose, she 24 called me by my female name.   25 
AJ: Is that right? 26 
JR: Yes.  I was really surprised because my mother is a Gemini just like me.   27 
AJ: Wow, thats amazing. 28 
JR: It was. 29 
AJ: So the doctor said the surgery was a success.  How did you feel about it? 30 
JR: And I agreed with him.  I havent had to have anything else done.  There are a lot of people that 31 have had three or four surgeries.  I had the initial one and I never went back.  Ive been married 32 seven times so it cant be that bad.   33 
AJ: OK. 34 
JR: And Im engaged to be married again. 35 
AJ: Wow, thats a beautiful ring, can I see that?  Oh my goodness.  When did you get engaged? 36 
JR: A few months ago. I let him hang around for a while. 1 
AJ: What is he like? 2 
JR: Hes white  and cute.  And I like him  I like him a lot. 3 
AJ: Is he good to you? 4 
JR: He has to be. 5 
AJ: Thats a pretty big rock youve got on. 6 
JR: Its all right, Ill get a bigger one.  The idea is to be treated well.  I give him what he wants in his 7 treatment of people.  Im not talking about sex, anybody can have sex.  But I treat him the way 8 he wants to be treated and he treats me the way I want to be treated.  My family loves him.  9 Whenever they talk to me they ask about him.  We travel a lot.  Weve been to Vegas, been to 10 California.  He goes to Iowa every time I go down there with me.  Hes supposed to go down this 11 month, but he cant because hes working.  But everybody knows him, everybody accepts him. 12 
AJ: Im so happy for you.  Congratulations.  When are you guys going to get married? 13 
JR: I dont know.  Hes got to get a divorce.   14 
AJ: Details, details. 15 
JR: Details.   16 
AJ: Wow, so talk to me a little bit about your professional life.  How has being transgender impacted 17 your ability to get a job, to hold a job?  I know youre retired now. 18 
JR: Yeah, Im retired.  My first 10 years actually up here, I worked as a stripper down on Hennepin 19 Avenue. 20 
AJ: A stripper? 21 
JR: Yeah.  I was doing my transition. 22 
AJ: You took off all your clothes? 23 
JR: Well they didnt let you do all that.  You had to wear pasties and I didnt have breasts  you 24 didnt get to take your bra off back in the 1970s. 25 
AJ: So it was not totally nude. 26 
JR: No  until I moved to St. Paul.  Then they had topless, bottomless dancing, but I didnt dance 27 then.  I was running the club. 28 
AJ: Is that right?  What was it called, do you remember? 29 
JR: It was called the New Gaslight Lounge. 30 
AJ: The New Gaslight Lounge.  I dont think that exists anymore. 31 
JR: Oh no. 32 
AJ: Where was it? 1 
JR: It was on University Avenue and . . . theres a U-Haul there right now where it used to be.   2 
AJ: OK.  New Gaslight Lounge.  And you were the manager there? 3 
JR: Yes.   4 
AJ: So what was it like working in nightclubs? 5 
JR: It was wonderful . . . it was wonderful.  Id work the nightclub scene . . . you know, working on 6 Hennepin Avenue, but I enjoyed it there because there was so many people.  I got to associate . 7 . . its not like working down at one of the bars where you B drink and you hustle champagne 8 and all that.  You didnt have to do that.   9 
AJ: Wow. 10 
JR: But I enjoyed it, oh God I was enjoying it.  I met a lot of nice men.  Ive never been one to go to 11 gay bars.  I do occasionally go but I prefer straight bars.  I dont have any problem . . . I guess 12 they either are afraid of me or they just dont bother with me.   13 
AJ: Or they could think youre extremely beautiful. 14 
JR: That too, but trust me  theyre afraid of me. 15 
AJ: Thats the answer and youre sticking with it.  Yeah.  Im just so fascinated by all of this story that 16 youre sharing and that youve been able to seemingly have a continued relationship with your 17 family and you talk about your grandchildren and . . .  18 
JR: Great grandchildren.   19 
AJ: Great grandchildren.  Seven of your grandchildren are lesbian identified.  Do you guys ever go to 20 Pride together? 21 
JR: I did not go but I think three of my granddaughters went.  I went to church at Pride this year, I 22 went last year too.  Im not one for crowds outside  Im not an outdoorsy person.  But they 23 seem to have liked it.  My sister liked it.  I didnt go to the fair- Im not an outdoorsy person. 24 
AJ: What do you think of the concept of Pride though in terms of . . .? 25 
JR: Well, it gives young people an identity and thats what they need, something they can be proud 26 of  and Pride is just what it sounds like, something you can be proud of.  Theyve got many 27 things that express the meaning of being LGBT.  But other than that, I dont even go to Valleyfair 28 or any of those. 29 
AJ: State fair, which is happening right now  you dont go there? 30 
JR: No, Ive been by there.  Ive dropped the kids off a couple of times but thats all. 31 
AJ: Its not your scene? 32 
JR: No, like I said Im just not an outdoorsy person.  My dad used to force us to go fishing and I used 33 to hate that.  Now I dont fish, I dont hunt . . . well, maybe I hunt a little bit.   34 
AJ: Well you can stop hunting now, youve got the big ring. 1 
JR: I havent got him to the altar.  My luck with men has not been that good, four of them are dead. 2 
AJ: Four of your past husbands are deceased? 3 
JR: Yes.  So my luck hasnt been that good.  I like bad boys.  They were bad boys. 4 
AJ: Really?  Wow, well thats quite fortunate to have been in so many relationships.  Many 5 transgender women just dont have those opportunities at all. 6 
JR: They have them, they dont take them out of fear.  Im confident in who I am.  If I meet a man, 7 we talk, we discuss.  If I think I want to be with him, Ill tell him.  If I dont want to be with him, I 8 wont tell him.  And if he sticks around long enough and if he aint smart enough to figure out 9 who I am and what my personality or my being might be, hes dumber than a box of rocks  10 especially first thing in the morning when I look a wreck.   11 
AJ: You make me think of Beyonce, I woke up like this, I woke up like this.   12 
JR: I used to  I used to go with the full face . . . eye lashes, wig, everything, go to bed.  And then I 13 said, Oh, no  this is too much.  And back then they didnt have those shake-out wigs that look 14 good.  You had to take them to the shop if you went to bed in them. 15 
AJ: Oh really. 16 
JR: Trust me, it can get expensive.  I had a girlfriend of mine come over one night and she said . . . 17 she had a boy with her and she said, Were going to shower, can I borrow one of your wigs.  I 18 said, OK.  Well I had just got my hair back from the shop  she took it and took a shower in it, 19 she come out and she said, Oh, I dont even like this wig.  I could have killed her.  But, you 20 know, our friendship lasted a long time just because she knew who I was, I knew who she was, I 21 knew what she was dong, she knew what I was doing.  There was no secrets.  Ive never had 22 girlfriends that I had to keep secrets from  thats one of the things that has made life so much 23 more livable for me.  I dont have to live with secrets.  I listen to girls saying, I hope my friends 24 dont know anything about me.  If youre ashamed of what youre doing, you shouldnt be 25 doing it.  And I tell them all, Youre pretty . . .  I think youve met Mia. 26 
AJ: Yes, I have met Mia.   27 
JR: Shes my goddaughter, shes trans.  I met her and I didnt even know what the hell she was.  I 28 asked her, I said, Do you want to talk to me or something?  Yes, Id like to talk to you.  29 About what?  Because Im looking at her and Im thinking shes just a little girl. 30 
AJ: Just a little girl. 31 
JR: She said, Well Ill talk to you . . . because Im busy running around the dining room down here, 32 so I went and sat down and she says, Im a trans.  I said, Trans what?  She said, Im a boy.  I 33 looked at her and I said, Youre kidding me.  She was 19. 34 
AJ: Shes beautiful, Ive met her. 35 
JR: And Im saying, OK, what do you want from me honey?  She says, I want to learn to be a 1 woman.  I said, Well honey, youre off to a good start, you look real good, but there are some 2 things you cannot do.  Ill give you the basics and you take it from there.  I encourage them to 3 get a job, I dont care how menial the job is, getting a job is the first thing you do when you want 4 to be out on your own so you dont have to be dependent upon anyone  especially a man.  She 5 got jobs, she went back to school, shes coming to your meeting on the 22nd.   6 
AJ: Wonderful, wonderful.  And we should talk a little bit about that  the Transgender Equity 7 Summit, which you have been . . .  8 
JR: You had asked me about doing something with that, but you didnt say anything else about it. 9 
AJ: Well we can talk about it, I want you to have a role and be involved in it. 10 
JR: We enjoyed the last time we were there. 11 
AJ: Yeah, its a beautiful thing to bring the community together and talk about the issues that are . . 12 .  13 
JR: And thats the only way I find out about the issues because Im here at the church but there 14 arent that many transgenders here.  Theres a couple that are post-operative, but theyre not 15 the kind that communicates. 16 
AJ: Theyre not out. 17 
JR: Theyre out, but they dont talk.  They dont want anyone to know too much about them. 18 
AJ: Sure. 19 
JR: I dont know how far through the surgery they are, Ive never asked them  never cared.  But I 20 told them if ever they need me they can always call me.  My phone is answered 24-hours a day 21 and Ive had many of them call me.  Ive gotten out of my bed at 3 oclock in the morning when 22 theyve been put in jail.  I went to Edina when one of my girls hit a city bus. 23 
AJ: Wow  in a car or . . .? 24 
JR: She had a truck, she was driving a truck.  She called me  she didnt have her ID with her.  She 25 had this gorgeous Siberian Husky in the car and she said, This policeman wants to talk to you.  26 I said, OK, and so I talked to him and I told him who she was.  And he said, Well she doesnt 27 have her drivers license with her so can you come and drive her car and Ill let her go.  So my 28 boyfriend at that time and I went and picked her up and I drove her truck and we took her 29 home.  I told her to stay home for the rest of the day.  But, you know, its just to know . . . for 30 these young people to know theres someone who is going to come out there for them that 31 nots going to be judgmental and say, Well you shouldnt have done this, you shouldnt have 32 done that.  I dont have a reason to tell them what they shouldnt have done, because theres a 33 lot of things that I shouldnt have done but I wouldnt have ever learned everything I know 34 without having done some wrong things  nothing to put me in jail, but they were wrong things 35 that my mother wouldnt have agreed with.  She used the law  she didnt agree with it, but it 36 was the law broken.   37 
AJ: Wow.  So can you climax June? 38 
JR: Yes.   1 
AJ: All right.   2 
JR: Ill tell you that story one day. 3 
AJ: OK. 4 
JR: Well Ill tell you now.  I met a lovely young man  before I even thought about having my 5 surgery, a gorgeous man.  He was a DJ at KMOJ and we were friends, but he told me that he 6 could not sleep with me because I was a male.  He said, But if you ever decide to have the 7 surgery, call me.  I called him my third day out of surgery.  I said, Its over, Im a woman now.  8 He said, Ill be out there.  He came out, brought me roses  everything.  Brought his wife with 9 him too. 10 
AJ: OK. 11 
JR: And thats all right.  And we talked and when I got out, I was out for about a week and he had 12 called me and he said, How long do you have to wait?  I said, Well they told me I have to wait 13 six weeks.  He said, Oh.  I said, Thats what they said, come on over.  It was unbelievable, 14 but I didnt climax because I was still sore.  But I did meet another young man about six or eight 15 months later and I had put it out of my mind that I would ever reach that point in my life.   16 
AJ: Sure. 17 
JR: All of a sudden I started seeing stars and I said, Oh, what is this?  I said, Oh, Lord  yes.  Since 18 then its been very, very active.  Like most of the kids that have the surgery, they go through a 19 lot of emotional affairs with people trying to find that Mr. Right. 20 
AJ: Sure. 21 
JR: And I did  with all those husbands.  I had mandatory rules. If you want this youve got to go 22 through the rules.  If you didnt go through the rules, you didnt get it.  So I got married a lot.  I 23 think the school was the one that paid the most  my sons school in Chicago called me at work 24 one day and the principal asked me what my last name was.  And I said . . . at that time I was 25 married to my husband, Odell, and I said, Its Lark.  And he said, Well, what is your sons 26 name.  I said, Same name thats on his records.  He said, Well, you know, you have so many 27 names down here I thought he might have changed his name.  And, of course, I said nasty 28 things to him and I did apologize but I said, Dont call up here and ask anything.  You got the 29 records, thats all you can do.  You call me again, Ill come up there and see you and you wont 30 like me.  He graduated too.  I was really afraid he wouldnt get to graduate  he had my 31 disposition.   32 
AJ: Which is? 33 
JR: Im a very stalwart person  demanding, I get what I want.  If you dont get me what I want, put 34 you on the back burner and find something else.   35 
AJ: Keep it moving. 36 
JR: Yeah  next.   37 
AJ: Whos got next?  June, whats your favorite swear word? 1 
JR: Bitch.   2 
AJ: Yeah. 3 
JR: And its not really a swear word because its a female dog but I feel a lot of people are like that.  4 They should be dogs. 5 
AJ: Wow, thats a good one.  Its very well used in the community.  Its kind of like the n word  6 people can use it as a term of endearment or it can be used as a derogatory term as well. 7 
JR: Thats the one  thats the one I like.   8 
AJ: OK.  All right, I see  your sons disposition . . . its all starting to come together for me now.   9 
JR: Oh yes, he was bad.  My youngest son was bad for a long time but now hes pulled himself 10 together.  He has eight kids, but hes working a good job.  He gave up the gangs and things like 11 that  because when we lived in Chicago, he was involved with the gangs.  When he came back 12 here he was involved in the gangs here for a long while, but now hes settled in. 13 
AJ: Hes got his life together.  Boy, you . . . I want to shift a little bit and talk about the broader sort 14 of transgender movement.  You had your surgery in . . .  15 
JR: 1977. 16 
AJ: 1977 . . . at that time the transgender community was still very much in the closet, very much 17 sort of underground.  Today, in 2016, transgender people have been so visible in movies, in 18 reality TV shows, with Caitlyn Jenner and books.  My friend, Janet Mock, has a best-selling book 19 on the New York Times list, the New York Times Best Seller List, and so how has the movement 20 been, in your eyes, from 1977 until today. 21 
JR: I cant count on 1977, I have to go all the way back to 1966. 22 
AJ: All right, lets do that.   23 
JR: Because Ive worn this dress a long time and Ive done everything I ever wanted to do.  You can 24 be who you want to be as long as you respect the people around you and they respect you.  Ive 25 never had trouble with, as I said, being transgender, its always been the color of my skin.   26 
AJ: So racism is a bigger issue than transphobia is to you. 27 
JR: Bigger for me.  I think one of the problems in the trans world is that security.  A lot of them have 28 not gotten that security in who they are and what they can do.  When I think about Renee 29 Richards and I think about . . . I forget the lady that was first. 30 
AJ: Christine Jorgensen? 31 
JR: Yeah, they all had hearts.  You had to have a heart in order to do things.  When I decided to do 32 it, I knew I had to do what I needed to do and be strong about it.  When youre ashamed of 33 something it comes out in your pores, it comes out in your disposition, it comes out in what you 34 do in your daily life.  Ive always had management positions, Ive always been a food service 35 director, Ive always been a named dancer when I did it  well a couple of times I was second in 1 the room, I wasnt always . . . I was a professional after I got my degree in taking my clothes off 2 on stage.  You know, youve got to be proud of who you are and what youre doing.  I knew that 3 I was going to have to raise my children and I didnt want them to have to run and peak and hide 4 and play those games with people.  I didnt want them to come over and say, Well, such and 5 such said such and such about you.  Id say to them, What do you say to them when they say 6 something like that to you?  And theyd say, Hmmm, let me see.  Ive got new Jordans.  7 Hmmm, I got a new bike  they have nothing, so maybe theyre jealous of me.  I said, I dont 8 know about jealousy but youll always get what you want, because I mean for my children to 9 have what I did not have.  And so my children dont have a problem with who I am or what I do. 10 My granddaughter told me one day, she said, Big Mama?  I said, What baby?  She said, You 11 know, you remind me of Madea.  I said, No baby, Madea reminds you of me.  Madea is 39, Im 12 70 honey  I know I was here first.   13 
AJ: Youre talking about from the Tyler Perry movies, Madea? 14 
JR: Yes.  I was out to the mall one time with my grandchildren and I heard somebody screaming, 15 Madea, Madea.  And my grandson said, Hes calling you.  I said, I dont know him.  Hes 16 calling you Madea.  I said, Im sorry about that.  And then I was in Uptown one day and I was 17 going to get in my car and somebody is screaming out the window, Madea, Madea.  I gave up 18 wearing white hair because they kept thinking I was Madea.   19 
AJ: You should have said, Heller.   20 
JR: It was not insulting.   21 
AJ: Good mornting.   22 
JR: I said no, its not insulting  I like being me, being the age that I am, the things that Ive done, 23 the things that I intend to do  all those things will come out when Im gone.  Theres very little 24 about me that my family does not know and if they dont know it, they never will  trust me.  25 But they know I havent always been as forthright as some people would want me to be, but 26 youd have to understand what I did with my life.  I didnt do anything, I didnt hurt anybody, I 27 have physically beaten somebody but Ive never killed anybody, I never stole any money, I never 28 did drugs  those things.  But Ive been me  Ive always been me.  Ive gone to the roughest of 29 places in Chicago and here.   30 
AJ: So you lived in Chicago too. 31 
JR: I lived there for 12 years.  That was when my sister was sick and Id had her flown back home, 32 because she wanted to go back to Chicago the last time she got beat down.  I said, Lord, I have 33 to go up there all the time to see her, Ill just move.  I waited her out until she passed on and 34 then I got a notification that my grandchildren were in foster care here and so I came back, 35 because they wouldnt let me take my grandchildren to Chicago, I couldnt cross the state line.  I 36 came back, bought a house, moved my grandchildren in and I went on with life.   37 
AJ: Wow.  Im just so fascinated with your story, June, with your leadership in the trans community 38 and your stature.  Youre a hero to some of these young people out here.  How do you feel 39 about that? 40 
JR: I dont think Im a hero, I think Im a mother.  When Im at Walmart and I hear somebody saying, 1 Big Mama, I know its one of my children or one of the grandchildren.  I look around and I may 2 not know them, but they might be one of my grandchildrens friends from school that Ive seen 3 at a party or theyve been over to the house or something.  Theyll come up and say, You dont 4 remember me.  And theyll tell me which one of my grandchildren they were with and Ill say, 5 Oh, hi baby, how you doing?  I want you to meet my mom.  And theyll call their mom over. I 6 like that.  I like them to be proud to know me, not what I am  but who I am.  When I get that . . 7 . Ive walked into church and people start to whisper and I say, Hmm, OK, I wonder what 8 theyre going to say afterwards, you know  when everyone gets together.  But then people 9 start to move towards me.  Or if Im at a funeral, everybody wants to talk to me, wants to find 10 out what the world is about.  Youd be surprised how many people have people in their family 11 that are transgender, that are just coming out, and they want to know what the life is like.  Is 12 their child safe?  What can they do to make it better for them so they dont have as horrible of a 13 time?  And some of the stories that have come out about transgenders, and Ive heard lots of 14 stories  Ive just never had them done to me, I wouldnt allow it.  But Ive heard of them being 15 thrown from cars, Ive heard of them being beat down, my sister being stabbed, being 16 overdosed  all those things.  But if you dont have street knowledge and know how to fend off 17 that kind of thing, I dont mind knowing those people but I dont have to do what they do  I do 18 what I care to do and what is beneficial to me.   19 
AJ: Right.  Wow.  Well, June, is there anything that I havent asked you that you want to share or 20 you want people to be aware of? 21 
JR: I just want people to understand, dont be judgmental, treat your children like you love them 22 and not like you own them.  If you can do that, that transition will be a lot smoother, a lot safer 23  because those children will be in your home, they will be in their beds rather than out on the 24 streets being taken care of by unruly people.  If my grandchildren want to run away, they better 25 run to my house and Ill let them. 26 
AJ: What would you tell a young person who was considering coming out as a trans person but they 27 might be a little scared? 28 
JR: Its scary, its a new thing  its just like stage fright.  If youve never been on the stage and you 29 walk out there, youre scared to death.  The first time I took off my clothes, I was scared to 30 death.  But there was a cute boy down front and I decided I was going to take my clothes off for 31 him.  But the idea is all these children are afraid when they come out, but they learned to 32 survive  they learned to survive the hard way and they shouldnt have to.  When I meet with a 33 mother thats got a child thats going to be either a lesbian or a gay guy or something and they 34 say, What can I do to change him?  Nothing  you cant do anything to change them.  I was 35 seven years old and I knew I liked boys.  If I can know at seven, other people know too  they 36 just dont tell you.  I do give them a recipe for what they need to do when they suspect 37 something  you have to encourage them, you have to give them the ability to know that youre 38 not the enemy  that youre there for them.  You may not agree with it, I dont think anybody 39 should agree with anything they dont want to agree with, but I think that you have to have a 40 broad enough mind to help this child through this traumatic portion of their life.  If you do that 41 youll always have that child in your life and it wont be by way of going to jail to see them, 42 because theyre out there prostituting themselves because they had nowhere to live.  Ive never 43 had one of my girls turn out like that.  I do talk to the girls that worked up on Lake Street 1 occasionally  its not necessary.  You can go get a job.  When I was young, girls used to get 2 together  four or five of us and get an apartment.  You know youd all be working at McDonalds 3 or something, but you could always pay the rent, you could always pay the rent.  Now its just a 4 little harder for them  just a little harder for them, but I think they could make it.  The 5 education is so good.  Children arent, shall we say, attacked verbally, mentally in schools like 6 they were when I was going to school  they didnt attack me. 7 
AJ: But it was happening around you. 8 
JR: It was happening.  And I would hear them crying and saying, Why is it happening to me?  I 9 would tell them, Honey, it doesnt have to happen to you.  If youre out there and youre 10 trying to struggle, there are too many agencies out there now that are willing to help them.  11 There are young people agencies in Brooklyn Park  if you have no home, if youre under 21, 12 theyll take you in.  Those kinds of things.  And most of the young people that are out there are 13 19 or 20 years old, they should have shelter.  They can come to my house  I have dinner, I have 14 no problem with them.  Come to my house, spend the night, spend a couple days . . . I dont 15 want to live with anybody because aint nobody going to pay my rent, but I want them off the 16 streets where theyre safe and then Ill do everything I can to find them a place to stay.  And if 17 they have not decided whether they want to be transgender or not, if theyre just thinking about 18 it, Ill tell them to go on thinking about it  theres no rush, you can always think about it 19 tomorrow, you can always decide tomorrow.   20 
AJ: Wow.  That is a perfect way to end this conversation, June. I want to thank you so much for your 21 openness and your willingness to sit down with me for a second time for this trans oral history 22 project.  Its been delightful, as usual.   23 
JR: It will be educational.  It will help someone that will go through the University and see 24 everything that is going to be there about life past and the things that are going to go on after.  25 Its not all that ugliness that people say that its going to be, its only ugly if you let it be. 26 
AJ: Wow.  Well you certainly have not let it be ugly for you and were really happy about that.  Until 27 we meet again, my friend.  Bye. 28 
JR: Bye, sweetie. 29 

