 
 
 
 
Anne Hodson Narrator   Andrea Jenkins Interviewer 
    
The Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies University of Minnesota 
 May 19, 2016 
 
 
 

   
 
  
The Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story, while providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source material about the transgender community.  The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for current and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public. 
The Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300 individuals over the next three years.  Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and experiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality.  This project will be led by Andrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist.  Andrea brings years of experience working in government, non-profits and LGBT organizations.  If you are interested in being involved in this exciting project, please contact Andrea. 
Andrea Jenkins jenki120@umn.edu (612) 625-4379 
 
 
 
 
  
Andrea Jenkins  -AJ 1 
Anne Hodson  -AH 2 
 3 
 4 
AJ: So, good afternoon. 5 
AH: Hello. 6 
AJ: My name is Andrea Jenkins and I am the oral historian for the Transgender Oral History Project 7 at the University of Minnesota Tretter Collection.  Today is May 19, 2016.  Im here on campus 8 at the University of Minnesota with Anne Hodson.  Hello, Anne. 9 
AH: Hello, Andrea.   10 
AJ: Anne, can you just state your name, spell it for our transcriptionist so that we make sure we 11 have all of that right, as well as state your gender today, your pronouns, and your gender 12 assigned at birth.   13 
AH: My name is Anne Hodson.  A-n-n-e H-o-d-as-in-David-s-o-n. I identify as a transsexual woman, I 14 was born male bodied, and what was the other question? 15 
AJ: What pronouns do you use? 16 
AH: What pronouns  I go by she/her/hers. 17 
AJ: OK, wonderful.  Im so glad that youre here with us today, Anne.  I just want to kind of point out 18 that this is actually a milestone interview  this is interview #75.   19 
AH: Thats amazing, thats wonderful.   20 
AJ: Its amazing that I have had the opportunity to sit down with 70+ trans and gender non-21 conforming people and hear their stories and their journeys, their trials, their tribulations, their 22 joys, and accomplishments.  Its just been a really amazing process thus far.  So thank you for 23 being here with us today, Anne.  I do want to point out too that Anne, youre a member of our 24 Advisory Committee for the Transgender Oral History Project. 25 
AH: I am. 26 
AJ: Whats that like for you? 27 
AH: Well, I believe in this project. This project is such an important opportunity for our community 28 to tell our stories and to tell the individual stories that are unique to us.   29 
AJ: Yes. 30 
AH: We each have our own variation of the transgender story and gender non-conforming story that 31 needs to be told separately so that in the future people have a better understanding of the 32 diversity and the wide variety of people that we are.  Just like any other group we have a huge, 33 wide, diverse population with an incredible range of experiences that has brought us to where 34 we are in this very moment where were sitting down and chatting with you. 35 
AJ: Yeah, well I absolutely agree and one of my own personal goals in this project has been to really 1 commit myself to being able to attract and identify the broadest range of diverse voices, 2 whether thats ethnicity, age, abilities, identities, and so Im really proud to have been able to, I 3 think, accomplish some of that up to this point. 4 
AH: Thats great, thats great.  And thats certainly something that as part of the Advisory Committee 5 we were looking for, as broad a cross-section as you could possibly gather.  Its incredibly 6 important that you get as wide a range as possible to really show how different we all are and 7 yet how the same we may all be.   8 
AJ: Yeah, theres definitely some shared experiences. 9 
AH: Arent there though. 10 
AJ: And philosophies that happen, but they also range very broadly.  So, Anne, can you just tell me 11 what is your earliest memory in life?   12 
AH: My earliest memory in life or my earliest memory in life that is transgender-related? 13 
AJ: Its interesting that you say that because I usually start that question with it does not have to be 14 transgender-related but its OK if it is, but honestly I really want to hear about what is the 15 earliest thing you remember and if it does relate to your identity, and in many cases it does, 16 please share that, but it doesnt have to. 17 
AH: Im not sure I can remember . . . (laughs) remember my earliest memory.  Im not sure what my 18 earliest memory is, I have a number of really early memories.  But Im going to go with the 19 earliest transgender memory that I have.  I was in the basement of what was then Daytons 20 department store in downtown Minneapolis, and we were in . . . it was at that time the Bargain 21 Basement and we were in a section where there was, I believe, bath linens  it was towels and . . 22 .  23 
AJ: Sheets and . . . 24 
AH: Yeah, and there were these tables that were white square, they were about 4 by 4 across and 25 about 2 high with the stacks of linens piled on them for the sale purposes.  And, I remember 26 looking over to my side and I used to remember whether it was left or right, but I remember 27 looking to my side and seeing a young woman there that . . . I just looked at her and I thought, 28 Im going to be like her when I grow up.  But I also remembered thinking that I better not tell 29 my mother this because I grew up when gender was incredibly tightly policed and it was just . . . 30 the rules were very strict and while, I think, for a lot of people they still exist that way today.  For 31 me, I felt very much like those gender rules and roles were firmly fixed and not to be messed 32 with.  I had a young friend when I was a kid and she was . . . shed play the rough and tumble 33 sports and she would play with all the toys that the boys had and she just fit right in with the 34 boys.  I remember my mother saying something about her being a tomboy and I asked her to 35 explain what tomboy meant and she did and then I asked her, Is there a name like that for boys 36 that want to play with more feminine-role things?  I remember her reaction was incredibly 37 firm, that, Absolutely not  no, no, there is no such . . . no, uh-uh.  38 
AJ: So she didnt even tell you sissy was the word? 39 
AH: No, no  never went there.  It was like there would be no discussion. 1 
AJ: Like dont even think about it. 2 
AH: The answer is no, move on.   3 
AJ: OK. 4 
AH: And so I remember thinking, again, that this was a very strictly enforced role and rule of gender.  5 I felt very early on that I better not mess with this, I better not express anything different.  I also 6 remember my parents wanting to give my niece, who was my same age, a present for her . . . I 7 think it was her birthday or Christmas or something, of this little plaid skirt and they were 8 wondering if this was going to fit her.  One of my parents thought that I was about the same 9 size, that they would try that on me and I remember putting up an incredible fight, that I didnt 10 want them to see me in that because I was fearful that somehow they would figure it out.  And 11 so, I threw a fit and would not try on that dress.  12 
AJ: Wow. 13 
AH: I dont remember if I ever secretly snuck off and tried it on because I wanted to know or 14 whether I just let it go.  But I remember later seeing a picture of me and my niece and she was in 15 that skirt. 16 
AJ: Oh, wow. 17 
AH: I still see that once in a while, I come across that photo and . . . I remember that skirt. 18 
AJ: So, a couple of questions about the early memory.  Did you identify that woman as transgender 19 or . . .? 20 
AH: No, no.  I identified her as an old lady which probably meant she was about 20.  No, she was 21 actually young.  I do recall that she was younger than my mother, that she was a young woman.  22 She was probably early 20s or something. 23 
AJ: So you identified with her  just beautiful and femininity. 24 
AH: Yeah, very pretty and very feminine and younger than my mother, and I think that was probably 25 part of it too was that I could see growing into that identity because if she had been my 26 mothers age or older then I would probably have never identified with her that way. 27 
AJ: And then, how old were you, do you think, at this point in time? 28 
AH: Im thinking I maybe was . . . it was before I started kindergarten. 29 
AJ: So maybe four? 30 
AH: So Im thinking four.   31 
AJ: Hmm, wow. Where did you grow up, Anne? 32 
AH: I grew up in North Minneapolis. 33 
AJ: Is that right?  Born and raised? 34 
AH: Born and raised in Minneapolis.  My great-great grandfather was the second white settler in 1 North Minneapolis.  Hed staked his claim in 1851 on the corner of 4th and Hennepin and went 2 up north to . . .  3 
AJ: Right where the Gay 90s is. 4 
AH: Right where the Gay 90s is, I could own the Gay 90s, how ironic.  He staked his claim there and 5 then he went up north for the winter to log and he came back and somebody that Ive only ever 6 heard of as Old Man Stemson, not Stinson as in Stinson Blvd, Stemson.   7 
AJ: S-t-e-m-s-o-n.   8 
AH: Yeah, but it could be . . . it might be the same person, I dont know, it depends on how names 9 get convoluted over history.  Anyway, hed jumped his claim and so my great-great grandfather 10 threw his ax over his shoulder and packed his bag and he followed the river north and he came 11 across a small creek coming into the river from inland a bit, and he staked his claim there of 160 12 acres, I believe it was.   13 
AJ: How does one stake a claim? 14 
AH: Well, I dont know how you do that.  Apparently you just put your flag down and say, This land 15 is mine.  Youre basically stealing it but I think the government was allowing claims at that time, 16 this was not even a state yet.  He staked that claim and had what became . . . the claim started 17 at 40th Avenue N. and it went past the creek and it went as far west as Humboldt, I believe, from 18 the river.  So east boundary was the Mississippi River, south boundary was 40th Street, west 19 boundary was what became Humboldt and then north boundary Im a little bit unsure of at this 20 point. 21 
AJ: Thats a lot of land. 22 
AH: Thats a good chunk of land.  And the creek ran through it and they named the creek for him, 23 they called it Bohanon Creek.   24 
AJ: Oh wow. 25 
AH: And the Farnham family had a . . .  26 
AJ: So your great-great . . . did you say your great-great grandfather? 27 
AH: Yeah. 28 
AJ: Is . . .? 29 
AH: John Campbell Bohanon. 30 
AJ: Oh wow. 31 
AH: The Farnham family had a lumber mill upstream of this creek and they kept losing all of these 32 little wooden roofing shingles and so the creek became known as Shingle Creek by default. 33 
AJ: Wow.   34 
AH: It was originally named Bohanon Creek but he lost that name. 35 
AJ: That is just a fascinating little Minneapolis historical gem.   1 
AH: Yeah. 2 
AJ: Because now theres a street, Shingle Creek Parkway. 3 
AH: Theres Shingle Creek Parkway, and, of course, Shingle Creek itself, and you have the Shingle 4 Creek neighborhood and everything.  What he has left now is Bohanon Field, which is a small 5 city park north of Shingle Creek.  So thats about all that is left of his name in that area where he 6 lived.  He donated the land for North United Methodist Church, which is the church that I grew 7 up in. 8 
AJ: Where is that located? 9 
AH: 44th and Fremont.   10 
AJ: North United Methodist Church. 11 
AH: Yeah.  So, he was one of the early pioneers of Minneapolis. 12 
AJ: Where did you go to school, Anne? 13 
AH: I went to McKinley Elementary School, which was on 37th and Colfax and was torn down in the 14 late 1970s.  I then went to Olson Junior High, which is now a middle school  same thing, just 15 different titling.  I think the grade shift is a little different.  It was on 48th, I think, and Irving, 16 something like that.  And then I finished at Patrick Henry. 17 
AJ: Patrick Henry. 18 
AH: Patrick Henry, on . . . 41st and Morgan. 19 
AJ: Patriots. 20 
AH: Thats right. 21 
AJ: Yeah.  Did you experience any hostility or bullying in school at all? 22 
AH: Yeah, I did.  I kind of kept to myself a little bit.  I didnt . . . I tried to repress this gender identity 23 stuff and tried to make it go away, I hoped it would go away.  And so, every time I would have 24 these feelings or thoughts about my gender identity, I would just push it down.  I would repress 25 it.  I tried to make it go away as best I could, I tried to . . . I was never into sports but I tried a few 26 things a few times and it was . . . my heart wasnt in it and I didnt want to be in it.  So, I kind of 27 stayed to myself a bit.  I think there was a few bullies, of course.  I think every school has bullies 28 and bullying shouldnt be, but it is, kind of a part of life.   29 
AJ: Shouldnt be . . .  30 
AH: It shouldnt be, but it is.  I just basically tried to steer clear of them all.  My best friends in school 31 were girls. 32 
AJ: Really? 33 
AH: Yeah, and I didnt really want to hang out with the boys.  So, I just felt more comfortable and . . . 1 I dont know if I felt more a part of that community but I just felt more comfortable there and 2 nobody seemed to mind that I was there. 3 
AJ: What was home life like? 4 
AH: Home was pretty good.  As I said, I had a . . . I mentioned my niece, I had a half-sister who was 5 considerably older than me and we have the same father but different mothers.  She lived a 6 block away from us and she had nine children of her own. 7 
AJ: Wow, pretty prolific. 8 
AH: Yes, and three of them were older than me.  One was the same grade that I was in.  So we were 9 all kind of in a similar . . .  10 
AJ: So you grew up with those kids. 11 
AH: I kind of grew up with them, not an awful lot but certainly they were at my house and I was at 12 their house.  We knew each other.  Later on, when I got into North Hennepin Community 13 College, my half-sister and I, I think, got a little bit closer.  I had a little bit more flexibility and 14 freedom and I would often stop by her house if I was driving by and I saw the lights were on.  I 15 would stop by and I would sit there and we would just chat into the wee hours of the morning 16 and we would watch Johnny Carson and Tom Snyder and drink RC Cola and eat potato chips. 17 
AJ: Wow, I remember that era.   18 
AH: And we would watch Tom Snyder and discuss . . . he was an incredible interviewer and really 19 had some amazing topics. 20 
AJ: He was pretty . . . a little controversial. 21 
AH: He was, he pushed the envelope.  He did some really interesting interviews.  So we would 22 discuss that as we were watching . . .  23 
AJ: Were there ever any transgender episodes that you guys dug into? 24 
AH: I dont recall one . . . no, I dont recall one at all.  Im not sure he ever interviewed anyone that 25 was transgender, at least that I saw with her.   26 
AJ: Yeah, you might have had to watch The Phil Donahue Show for that. 27 
AH: That was Donahue. 28 
AJ: Which was the same era as well. 29 
AH: Yeah, I remember watching Caroline Cossey on Phil Donahue a couple times. 30 
AJ: Yeah  oh wow.  So no other . . . so you had the older half-sister, any other siblings in your 31 household? 32 
AH: No, no other siblings.  No.  So, I pretty much grew up an only child and so did my sister, which 33 was interesting.  My father grew up on the farm and was a farm boy from way back.  Eventually 34 
through a number of different jobs, ended up being a labor organizer for the United Mine 1 Workers, he was a union organizer.  2 
AJ: So Bohanon was your mothers . . .  3 
AH: Bohanon was my mothers side and she was a church organist at North United Methodist 4 Church where I grew up.  So I grew up knowing that history of being on the north side and being 5 a long-time resident of Minneapolis, the family.  During the Civil War, my great-great 6 grandfather would help escaping slaves that stopped in Camden as they were traveling up the 7 river and he would offer them food and shelter. 8 
AJ: So do you think that was an official part of the underground railroad? 9 
AH: I dont know that it was official, I dont know how official anything was by the time you got this 10 far north. 11 
AJ: Right, it wasnt like they had . . .  12 
AH: They werent in the middle of the war, the war wasnt being fought here so I dont know how 13 official the underground railroad stations were by this point. 14 
AJ: But thats part of your familys story and history. 15 
AH: Part of my family history that I think is amazing and Im particularly proud of that. 16 
AJ: Sure. 17 
AH: Back in the 1860s he was doing that. 18 
AJ: They were on the side of righteousness and justice. 19 
AH: They were on the right side of history, I believe.   20 
AJ: Yeah. 21 
AH: Yeah, and I think thats probably some of where I get my drive to work at social justice issues 22 and looking at the intersections of all the aspects of our identities and how they come together 23 and help us be who we are as a person. 24 
AJ: Wow, that is fascinating.  So, not only did your family play a pretty major role in sort of the 25 founding of the city, they also played a role in really sort of creating liberation for escaping 26 slaves from the south. 27 
AH: There was one family, the man was so impressed with my great-great grandfathers hospitality 28 and help that he asked him if he could change his name to John C. Bohanon.  So on his way to 29 Canada, my great-great grandfather agreed and allowed that, and somewhere up in Canada is 30 an African American, African Canadian family named Bohanon that probably has no idea where 31 that came from  how did they get that name? 32 
AJ: Wow, that is fascinating.  33 
AH: I would love to meet up with them.   34 
AJ: Ancestry.com  1 
AH: Absolutely.   2 
AJ: So when is the first time you realized that you were not the gender assigned at birth?   3 
AH: Probably that moment in that department store when I was around four or five years old.  But 4 Im not sure I understood it or could figure it all out.  I didnt have the words . . . 5 
AJ: Yeah, thats pretty hard to . . .  6 
AH: Its pretty hard and, you know, in school we didnt talk about this stuff.  We didnt talk about . . . 7 you know, Christine Jorgensen hopped off the plane in December of 1952 to headlines in the 8 Daily News of Ex-GI Becomes Blond Beauty.  And that was probably the first big public sort of 9 awareness of transgender identities and I dont know that much about all that she did after that.  10 I know she made a few chat show appearances and was a little bit in the public eye . . . 11 
AJ: She apparently made an album, Ive seen the album cover. 12 
AH: Oh cool, I should look for that.  But it was not something that was talked about at my dinner 13 table.  And so . . .  14 
AJ: Well, and its pretty old history by the time you were . . .  15 
AH: Well, I was born in 1954 and she did this in 1952. 16 
AJ: Oh wow, OK. 17 
AH: I dont know, like I said, what her history was, her chronology of public appearances but it 18 certainly must have been in the news a little bit once in a while, although I think she was 19 probably more east coast popularity than around here. 20 
AJ: Yeah, and there was no social media. 21 
AH: No, there was no social media, there was just what the newspaper and the television, and not 22 everybody had televisions even when she first came out.  It was newspapers and magazines 23 back then.  We didnt subscribe to very many magazines, we took the Minneapolis Star, which 24 was the afternoon newspaper.  I certainly dont recall seeing anything in it about her and I dont 25 recall any discussions about it.  But not only was it not at my breakfast table or dinner table 26 discussion, it was not anything that was ever discussed in school.  When we got to sex ed, which 27 was in junior high, it was taught by the gym teachers and those poor guys, all they could do was 28 get heterosexual sex out  they were sweating bullets trying to talk about sex to a bunch of 29 teenagers. 30 
AJ: And Im pretty sure they didnt even get that right. 31 
AH: I dont think they got that right either, no.  And they certainly werent going to discuss same-sex 32 attraction, they were not going to discuss gender identity.  I dont think they had the tools for it, 33 I dont think they had the understanding of any of that.  They barely had an understanding of 34 heterosexual identities.   35 
AJ: So when did you begin to express this gender . . .? 36 
AH: I repressed this for such a long time.  I was probably in my early 40s when I really decided I 1 needed to figure out why I kept thinking about this, why I kept wondering what it would be like 2 to be female and trying to figure out how do I deal with this identity because I really had hoped 3 and felt that it was going to go away.  That given enough time, given the right circumstances, I 4 could repress this enough that I would 20 years later suddenly go, Hey, I dont even think about 5 that anymore, and just kind of go, Oh, OK, and then walk on with my life.  But I had tried all 6 of these things, and I think to further confound things for me as I was growing up, as I was a 7 teenager and in my early 20s, I always felt that I was attracted to women and I didnt 8 understand same-sex attractions either.  And so, I didnt understand that I could have an 9 identity that was female as well as an attraction to somebody that was female.  I always felt like 10 if I identify as female then I have to be attracted to men and if Im not attracted to men, then I 11 must not be female.  So I think that added to my sense of this is going to go away, Im going to 12 be able to push this down, Im going to be able to repress this.  I tried to do things that were 13 expected of guys.  Like I said, in high school I tried sports but didnt really like it and I wasnt all 14 that great at it because my heart wasnt in it.  I felt that I needed to prove to myself and 15 probably to others, mostly to myself, that I was this guy and I joined the Marine Corps. 16 
AJ: You were in the military? 17 
AH: I was in the military.  I joined the Marine Corps the summer I graduated from high school and 18 they had a program that was similar to an ROTC program and the ROTC program was called PLC, 19 Platoon Leaders Class.  It was a program that you could be in while you were in college.  And so, 20 I went to summer camp at Quantico, Virginia, and did all the things that were expected of me.  I 21 didnt really like it and it didnt fit and it felt like it was a big mistake and it was the wrong thing 22 to do. 23 
AJ: But you stuck it out? 24 
AH: Well, being in the college program, there was not a commitment unless you took money for 25 college. I knew that I didnt want to make that big of a commitment, so I intentionally didnt 26 take money for college and that didnt obligate me to do active duty service.  27 
AJ: Got it. 28 
AH: And so I felt that I was . . . I would not have been happy had I stayed in, that would have been 29 probably someplace I would not have felt comfortable at all.  So I was very thankful that I was 30 able to tell them, Im not coming back.   31 
AJ: So how long did you do it? 32 
AH: Well I was actually in for almost two years. 33 
AJ: Oh wow. 34 
AH: But it was while I was in college so it wasnt like I was doing active duty. 35 
AJ: Full-time, yeah. 36 
AH: No, no  it was just summer camp for basic training. 37 
AJ: So two years at Quantico. 38 
AH: Quantico, Virginia.  Yeah, which is where they do the officer training. 1 
AJ: Good. 2 
AH: So I did all these things and then, as I said, I found myself very attracted to women and that 3 confused me because I didnt understand how you could be attracted to women and want to be 4 one.  It just didnt make sense.  And so, it aided in my repression of this. 5 
AJ: Makes sense. 6 
AH: So I pushed it down.  I married somebody.  I had just turned 22, we had both just turned 22, and 7 I actually think I thought that that would make it go away  that that would help this repression 8 of this identity, that I just needed to be married and that would make this go away.  Later we 9 tried to have children, I think I also thought maybe that would help make it go away  all of 10 these different steps that I would try, one of those was going to be the trigger to make it go 11 away and it would completely be gone.   12 
AJ: Right. 13 
AH: So, by the time I got to my early 40s and I started realizing it hadnt gone away yet and I needed 14 to do something with it, thats kind of when I started doing more research.  By then the internet 15 had been kind of up and running for a bit and I could start doing some research on the internet, 16 although when you type in the word transsexual there is that little three letter s-e-x in the 17 middle of it . . . 18 
AJ: Yeah, you get some weird stuff. 19 
AH: There were some things there that were not helpful.   20 
AJ: Porn essentially. 21 
AH: Porn, yeah.  And thats not what I was looking for.  What I did find, though, that was helpful was 22 I started finding other peoples stories and I started reading stories by people that were similar 23 to me, that grew up in a similar situation, had tried the military, had tried all of these things of 24 sports.  And as a photographer for a profession I used to do some aerial photography and Id sit 25 on the sill of the helicopter with my feet hanging out and leaning out over the open door taking 26 pictures and I found that other people were doing similarly high-risk activities in their jobs or as 27 hobbies or something.  I think, again, that was part of that effort to try to show to myself, 28 probably prove to others but also prove to myself, that I was this masculine guy.  I understand 29 that all of these things are things that women can do but it was a stereotype that I was trying to 30 fit.  There isnt a single thing that I did then that I cant do now as a transgender woman, and 31 that I couldnt have done if I had been born biologically female.  All those things are there, but I 32 think some of it really had to be with the idea of proving masculinity or an identity. 33 
AJ: Sure. 34 
AH: I started going to the Minneapolis Public Library and I would check out . . . well not check out, I 35 would pull off the shelves all of these books that I could find on gender identity and transgender 36 identities.  There was not a lot of them back then like there are today, but what I would do is I 37 would grab them all and I would sit at one of those study carrels that has the three walls and I 38 would . . . so nobody was seeing what I was looking at, and then Id kind of hunker down and 1 read these books and Id stack them with the spines against one of the back walls so that 2 nobody could see what the book said.  3 
AJ: At least until after you left anyway. 4 
AH: Well no, then I learned the Dewey Decimal System and I restacked the books on the shelves 5 instead of putting them at the end of the shelves, because I didnt want anybody to say, 6 Theres somebody coming in every day and theyre looking at all these books on transgender, I 7 wonder who that is?  And I didnt want anybody trying to figure out that it was me.  So I re-8 stacked all of those books because I didnt want anybody to know that I had been looking at 9 them.  The thing that was interesting about all of the study that I did, the research that I did 10 online and as I studied those books, is that I started finding that there were people like me and 11 up until now, all I had seen on television and magazines and things like that, were really drag 12 performers, many of which probably didnt identify as transgender because drag is 13 performance.  They were presenting this feminine persona as entertainment and it was for 14 entertainment purposes and it wasnt always necessarily a part of their real identity.   15 
AJ: True. 16 
AH: And so while some drag performers, many drag performers, I believe, can be transgender and 17 are transgender, not all of them are and so it was not an example that worked for me.  When I 18 would watch, you mentioned Phil Donahue earlier, when I would watch his show and hed have 19 a panel of six or eight people, I dont remember.  Maury Povich had one of 10 or12 people and 20 two-thirds of them were female impersonators and drag queens and the other third were 21 somewhat masculine women or body builders, women that were body builders or something, 22 and the game was . . . it was just so demeaning.  The game was, Can you Tell Which One was 23 Born Female? because thats what they did back then, thats how trans people were presented 24 to the world  as, Can you tell?  I remember seeing these and all of these were the men that 25 were dressing up as women, they were all gay, and I didnt feel that that was a representation of 26 my identity.  Its like I dont find myself represented there, so I didnt have any role models for 27 such a long time, until I started finding these books and finding these stories online and starting 28 to look at really the lives of people that werent performing  more of everyday people and their 29 lives and realizing that there were people like me and that they were living ordinary lives and 30 they werent living their lives out on stage.  Theres nothing wrong with any of that stage 31 performance and everything, its just that it didnt fit for who I felt I was.   32 
AJ: Sure.  I would state that I think some of . . . because we didnt have language around 33 transgender and transsexual, I think some of those people had those feelings and lived their 34 lives, but also worked as drag performers and that was the . . . that was the language so thats 35 what people used. 36 
AH: Yeah, and it was also a way to make ends meet because the challenges of any sort of a trans 37 identity is a challenge.  Its difficult to make a living. 38 
AJ: But I dont want to negate your assessment because I think its totally accurate and I think that 39 there are drag performers today who still, thats performance and it is not an identity, per se, 40 that people live on a day-to-day basis. 41 
AH: Yeah, and then there are many that are.  And so thats why . . . there are people that say that 1 drag does not belong under the transgender umbrella. 2 
AJ: Yeah, talk to me about this. 3 
AH: And I totally disagree with that because I know far too many transgender people that have done 4 a great deal of performing, that drag has been very much a part of developing who they are as a 5 person.  And so, I think its wrong to discount the idea that drag and trans, true trans identity  if 6 you want to call it a true trans identity, I dont know how youd . . . that those two cant be the 7 same. 8 
AJ: Co-exist. 9 
AH: Yeah, they cant co-exist, because I do believe that transgender, for many people, does include 10 drag. 11 
AJ: Yes. 12 
AH: It is a part of that gender non-conformity and that is a part of their identity.   13 
AJ: Right. 14 
AH: And whether or not . . . its like somebody that cross dresses once or twice a year, I still believe 15 they have a transgender identity, that that is a part of that.  16 
AJ: And even whether intentional or not, the drag performance put this notion of gender . . . whats 17 a good word for it?  Gender transgression into peoples minds. 18 
AH: Yeah, right.  Right.   19 
AJ: So it makes people think about . . .  20 
AH: It does, it helped spark the national dialogue on transgender identities.  And while drag is not 21 something that necessarily represents all of us, it certainly is something that does spark that 22 discussion. 23 
AJ: Yeah.  So, Anne, and this is fascinating, Im so glad were delving into some of these issues.  24 What challenges have you faced since you have begun to express your true gender identity? 25 
AH: I think its changed in the 17 years or so since I first came out and started working on this, and I 26 think Ive changed a lot in that 17 years as well.  I think the world is more aware of transgender 27 identities now than we were before.  Were more aware of transgender identities than ever, and 28 part of that is its an incredibly volatile time right now as the bathroom issue is at the forefront 29 of rights. 30 
AJ: How so? 31 
AH: Well, Target Corporation just said that they are going to be inclusive of transgender people and 32 gender non-conforming people using whatever bathroom they choose to use, the bathroom 33 that they would prefer to go into.  And what that has done is there is a huge backlash against 34 that as well.  We have, just earlier this week, an organization that has announced that they are 35 going to be parking a truck in front of every single Target store in the state of Minnesota with a 36 billboard on the side of it that is created to strike fear into peoples hearts and minds and make 1 them fearful of transgender people. 2 
AJ: Wow, thats quite a commitment to hatred. 3 
AH: Yeah, and its a picture of somebody who is not trans, but a man who is at least 6 tall or 4 something, standing with his back to the camera looking at a young girl coming out of a 5 bathroom stall and she has a horrified look on her face. 6 
AJ: Wow. 7 
AH: I dont recall what the tagline is but its something about Target will now allow men in the 8 womens bathroom.  Theyre approaching this from the idea that all trans people are pedophiles 9 and thats the whole reason that were even going in the bathroom is not to simply do our 10 business but to prey on young children.   11 
AJ: Sure. 12 
AH: All of this is based on fear and hatred of something that they dont understand. 13 
AJ: So Target is . . . they didnt just come out to say, Hey, everybody can come use the bathroom of 14 their choice, it was a response to legislation and . . .  15 
AH: It was in response to legislation in North Carolina and Mississippi that has . . .  16 
AJ: And I just want to clarify because somebody might be watching this 30 years from now and they 17 dont know what youre talking about.  So yeah. 18 
AH: Welcome future, how is it 2116?  Let me know, send me a message.  Im dying to see what it will 19 be like 100 years from now.  But yeah, legislation in North Carolina earlier this year, and the 20 state of Mississippi as well, that . . .  21 
AJ: And there have even been bills here in Minnesota that have been discussed. 22 
AH: Bills have been proposed here in Minnesota and they failed this year but those of you viewing 23 this in the future will have a better idea as to how that fared and what happened, because we 24 have no idea.  Honestly, we dont.  And we dont know which way this pendulum is going to 25 swing, how far its going to go.  And actually theres two pendulums, there is one pendulum 26 going one way and one pendulum going the other way and theres also a greater . . . I think what 27 Target did is an example of this pendulum going the other way, because theyre trying to say, 28 No, everybody is welcome. 29 
AJ: What we would call the right way. 30 
AH: What we would call the correct way, yes, on the correct side of history.  And the wrong side is 31 how we would view the actions of North Carolina, Mississippi, other states and organizations 32 have been taking a look at it.  At one point in 2016, there was close to 200 anti-LGBT bills being 33 proposed in state legislative bodies and at least a quarter of them were anti-transgender bills 34 that would restrict bathroom rights, that would restrict locker rooms, that would restrict schools 35 . . . the state high school league had a thing a couple years ago where they made a ruling that 36 would allow trans people to use bathrooms of their preference, that they felt were the correct 37 ones for how their identities were.  And some of this is growing from that and I think were also 1 seeing some backlash from all of this.  I think, also, that it stems back to the marriage equality, 2 the right-wing conservative movement did not prevail in marriage equality and they pretty much 3 have very little ground to stand on on that, theres been a few people that have tried, like Kim 4 Davis in Kentucky, to restrict access to marriage licenses.  There was a judge in Texas that said 5 he would never perform a same-sex marriage and interestingly enough hes so well-known and 6 conservative that nobody has ever asked him to perform one and probably never will, but he 7 just made a statement about it.  So theres very little recourse and I believe that the right-wing 8 haters are looking for something to latch on to and the transgender identity and the growing 9 visibility of the transgender community is that thing for them to grab a hold of right now and try 10 to protest, in part, I think, to marriage equality.   11 
AJ: I agree.  And I think those are challenges that are really facing the broad transgender community 12 but Im really interested in have there been any personal challenges for you? 13 
AH: Well, I had a job a few years ago that I was not allowed to keep.  I had a contract . . .  14 
AJ: So you were fired? 15 
AH: Well, I had a contract that was a fixed-term contract and it was not renewed.  No explanation 16 was given as to why that contract was not renewed.  I spoke to several people afterwards that 17 knew this person and knew this persons history that was the manager that was in charge of 18 that contract for me.  Their take on it was that this person was very homophobic and very 19 transphobic and this was an opportunity for them to get rid of me in a way that they didnt have 20 to look for other ways to do it, they could just simply say, Were not going to renew your 21 contract.  It was not something I was expecting and it was not something . . . it was at 22 someplace that I was very much in love with and wanted to stay.  They were very smart about it, 23 they didnt do it in a way that gave me any legal ground to file a suit of discrimination against 24 them. But I will probably go to my grave believing that I lost this job because I was transgender.  25 
AJ: Because of your transgender identity? 26 
AH: Because of my transgender identity, yeah.  And, its very painful because I loved that place, I 27 loved that job, I loved what I did.  I felt I had a purpose in life and all of that was taken away 28 from me.  Unfortunately, thats the reality for far too many transgender people in 2016, is that 29 we as a community have a much harder time of finding work, of keeping work, of getting paid 30 what were worth.  Ive known people in the past that were transgender that had Ph.D.s that 31 lost their jobs because they didnt want a trans person, somebody in the company did not want 32 a transgender person there in the company.  Ive heard of people that suddenly were moved 33 from the front of the establishment to the very back where they were not visible, where they 34 couldnt be seen.  So many horrible experiences for transgender people around employment. I 35 believe that I have first-hand experience and knowledge with that discrimination. 36 
AJ: Wow, Im sorry that you had to experience that.   37 
AH: And its been very difficult for me., its been very difficult for me. 38 
AJ: Yeah.  What have been some of the joys since youve begun to express your true gender 39 identity? 40 
AH: I think some of the joys have been just being able to be myself and feeling that for that first 44 1 years of my life, I was hiding my true identity.  I would walk into a store before I transitioned and 2 somebody would take one look at me and say, Can I help you, sir?  And while they were 3 certainly theoretically correct in that assessment, it felt like a kick in the teeth by an Army mule, 4 it felt absolutely horrible and I thought, Ahh, you dont know who I am, you have no idea and 5 youre making an assumption, youre using sir to address me and you dont have any idea how 6 painful that is.  And so while my voice hasnt changed to a point where I feel like I can pass if I 7 open my mouth, in particular, I still feel like at least theyre not seeing this guy that they used to 8 see.  So, there is that sense of feeling like I am expressing to the world who I am as a person and 9 Im no longer hiding or pretending that I am somebody else.   10 
AJ: Right. 11 
AH: So, getting to be who I am has been probably the most important part and along with that has 12 been an acceptance by others of who I am as a person too.  And while most of those moments 13 of acceptance come from within our LGBTQ community, we have a large enough community 14 that that feels important, it feels good.  Ive returned to school, Im working on a masters 15 degree in LGBTQ Studies and its a program where you get to write your own degree. 16 
AJ: Right.  Where are you doing this at? 17 
AH: St. Marys University of Minnesota, with their graduate school and professional studies program 18 in south Minneapolis. 19 
AJ: Oh wow.  OK.   20 
AH: I just received a scholarship and I found out that . . .  21 
AJ: Congratulations. 22 
AH: Why, thank you.  And it was through PFund and I just found out that there was 59 applicants for 23 this scholarship that I got. 24 
AJ: Wow, congratulations. 25 
AH: Im humbled. Im a little bit . . . almost embarrassed. 26 
AJ: Oh, goodness. 27 
AH: Oh my goodness. 28 
AJ: Thats community support. 29 
AH: It is, and it feels good.  It makes me feel like Im not lost in the world and I think, for a lot of 30 people, that lack of community makes it very difficult to be out and about and who you are.  31 And I feel sorry for people that are living in a part of the world where they dont have that sense 32 of community, they dont have somebody that they can just simply call on the phone and say, 33 Can we just have coffee?  They dont know that there is a coffee shop down the street where 34 they can go and they know, that as an LGBTQ or specifically as a trans person, where they can 35 walk in the door there and feel that they are more than accepted, that theyre in a community 36 coffee shop  and we have that here and I feel very blessed to be living in a part of the world 1 that has that sort of acceptance.   2 
AJ: Sure. 3 
AH: We were talking about North Carolina and Tennessee earlier, and Mississippi and Texas and 4 various parts of the country, I dont think I would feel as safe and I dont think I would feel as 5 accepted and as a part of the world and a part of the community in those parts.  How does 6 anybody in North Carolina safely feel that they can just walk down the street?  Not that any of 7 us can do that anyways anywhere, we always have to be looking over our shoulders no matter 8 who we are or where we are.  But, I think theres an additional level of fear that I would have in 9 a place that I didnt feel like I had community.   10 
AJ: Sure.   You speak of community and support, how is your relationship with your family now? 11 
AH: My relationship has been pretty good.  My mother has . . . she was very accepting when I first 12 came out and she was very understanding and she tried very hard to get a grasp of what I went 13 through growing up and spent a lot of time reading about it and talking with others and was 14 very accepting.  She now . . . shes now 101-years-old. 15 
AJ: Wow. 16 
AH: And lives in a nursing home and has vascular dementia, so she has had a number of strokes and 17 it has affected her cognitive abilities.  So, Im just happy that she even recognizes me at all.  So 18 the discussions arent there anymore about gender identity and acceptance or anything.  Shes 19 just happy that we come and visit. 20 
AJ: Thats just a reality. 21 
AH: Yeah.  That we come and visit on a regular basis and that she feels loved, and thats what I want 22 for her  is that she still feels that she has family, even though she probably cant remember our 23 names, she can recognize us when we talk into the room, when we get within about six feet of 24 her.  She has macular degeneration that has affected her vision quite dramatically.  Her hearing 25 is quite bad, so its a real challenge to have conversations with her.  But I know that she really 26 did accept who I am and was actually quite proud of what it took to go through all that I did.  My 27 father passed away before I came out, so I never got to have a discussion with him.  My sister 28 also passed away before I came out. 29 
AJ: Oh, the half-sister? 30 
AH: The half-sister, she passed away before . . .  31 
AJ: She is deceased now. 32 
AH: Yeah, she died . . . I think she was around 54-years-old, so she died quite early.  Her nine kids, 33 she has eight left, one of them passed away before I came out.  We had a discussion about it, 34 they seemed to be pretty good.  I was happy with how theyve treated me. 35 
AJ: Theyre all adults now? 36 
AH: Theyre all adults, yeah  scattered around the country, I hardly see them all, hardly ever.  We 1 had a birthday celebration for my mother when she turned 100 and I think three or four of them 2 showed up  so, a few of them I see from time to time and theyve been pretty good.  Im still 3 married, or I married again I should maybe say. 4 
AJ: Oh wow. 5 
AH: One of the things I did, as I said earlier, is I got married right after I turned 22.   6 
AJ: Right. 7 
AH: And that marriage lasted until I came out and so we made it 25 years. 8 
AJ: Wow, thats a long time. 9 
AH: Until I came out to her, and then at that time we decided that staying married was probably not 10 going to happen.  She very much identifies as heterosexual, she was not interested in being in a 11 relationship with someone who identifies as female and so we agreed to divorce fairly early on 12 after I came out.   13 
AJ: OK. 14 
AH: Instead of going our separate ways as we thought we were going to, we went as far as separate 15 bedrooms in the house. 16 
AJ: A long ways away. 17 
AH: A long ways away.  We continued to do the same activities, we continued to go on vacations 18 together, and I began my transition.  It was a little bit difficult for her at first  she didnt even 19 want to see me as Anne.  Eventually she thought this is silly, Im hiding half my life, Im not going 20 to do that anymore and she said, Well, its time to see you.  Then we just kind of went back to 21 the way we were and then after marriage became an option for us again as a same-sex couple, 22 she said, I think we should get married again, both as an expression of how much we still love 23 each other and want to be together and also the legal protections that go along with that as 24 well. 25 
AJ: That is an amazingly beautiful story.   26 
AH: So we re-married and so now we have been . . . weve each been married twice and Ive been 27 married to the same person both times with me as a different person two times and shes been 28 married to, I suppose, the same person but not the same person  theyre two different people.  29 
AJ: I think theres a novel in there somewhere.   30 
AH: Its a whole different . . .  31 
AJ: What did you guys decide to do about names? 32 
AH: We just kept our last names.   33 
AJ: Really? 34 
AH: We always did.  When we first married she changed her name to my last name for only a very 1 short time and then she switched back to her birth name, her maiden name, I guess, is the old-2 school term for it.   3 
AJ: Sure. 4 
AH: So she kept that.  By the time that we were divorced, that was not even a part of the concern  5 changing names.  We just have kept our names, our last names.  We dont bother with the Mrs. 6 and Miss.   7 
AJ: So sex is good? 8 
AH: Well, we dont have that sort of a relationship. 9 
AJ: OK. 10 
AH: We dont have a sexual relationship; we still have separate bedrooms. 11 
AJ: So still separate bedrooms. 12 
AH: Yeah, she still identifies as straight, as heterosexual.  So its a different sort of relationship. 13 
AJ: Is it an open relationship then?  Are you guys having sex with other people? 14 
AH: No, weve never tested that, either one of us.  Weve never approached it and Im not sure that 15 it would probably work all that well for us.   16 
AJ: Yeah.  But youre happy in the situation? 17 
AH: We are.  People say that when youve been together for 40 years, sex pretty much doesnt exist 18 anyways. 19 
AJ: Im not quite sure about that. 20 
AH: I think if we probably still were . . .  21 
AJ: Human nature is a pretty strong thing. 22 
AH: I think if we were a heterosexual couple wed be having sex, but we dont.  We value the rest of 23 the relationship enough that we are willing to forgo a sexual relationship in order to have 24 everything else that we have, because its that important to us.  Its so important to have that 25 sense of family.  We are each others family.  Weve known each other for 42 years now and its 26 been 40 years coming up in another month or two since we were married the first time.  We 27 know each other better than anybody else would ever know us.  We have no secrets now, 28 obviously my transgender identity was a huge secret.  We have no secrets and we just want to 29 be with each other, we like each other, were so compatible, we have the same interests in 30 music, we have the same interest in food, we have the same interest in travel, we have the 31 same interest in friends, we have the same interest in just about everything.  And, when I came 32 out to her family, they also were quite accepting of this identity. 33 
AJ: Oh good, that was going to be my next question. 34 
AH: Yeah, I figured it was because I do interviews too.  I know where this is going.  I came out to 1 them, one of them has a cabin up in northern Minnesota and we were sitting out on the deck 2 with my wifes two brothers and her sister and all of their spouses except for one.  By that time, 3 wed already announced that we were getting divorced but nobody really knew why.  And so, 4 we decided it was time to tell people why we were getting divorced.  So I started explaining 5 everything to them about who I felt I always should have been and that I would probably be 6 transitioning and that I just felt that it was important for them, as family, to know all of that.  7 And that we didnt know where that was going to go.  Rachel and I would divorce, we didnt 8 know if we would be splitting and really going separate ways eventually or not.  But my oldest 9 sister-in-law turned and said to me, she goes, Well, youre not getting out of this family that 10 easy, which kind of scared me.  Had I married into the Norwegian mafia?  You sleep with the 11 lutefisk.  Or, were they just going to be that accepting, and they actually were that accepting.  12 They had children and grandchildren and over a period of time everybody was informed of this 13 and, of course, the little kids . . . their grandchildren, my great nieces and nephews I guess, on 14 my in-laws side, they were quite young at the time and, of course, I was a curiosity at the next 15 few family gatherings and theyd kind of come up and kind of do a . . . take a look at you and 16 then run off.  And its all been fine.  Ive not felt that anybody has treated me wrong or poorly 17 because of my transgender identity. 18 
AJ: Wonderful. 19 
AH: Im still just a part of the family.   20 
AJ: So . . .  21 
AH: Can I tell the story about coming out to my mother? 22 
AJ: Absolutely. 23 
AH: Because when I came out to my mother, I sat down with her and I wanted to explain to her why 24 we were getting divorced and what was going on in my life.  I explained it all to her and when 25 she finally spoke up she said, Oh, Im so relieved, I was afraid this was going to be something 26 serious. 27 
AJ: Oh my goodness. 28 
AH: And then she said, Well, not that this isnt serious, but I was afraid you were going to tell me 29 you had some fatal disease and six months to live or that you were moving to the opposite end 30 of the world and Id never see you again.  My son or my daughter, youre still my kid and I love 31 you. 32 
AJ: Ohhh, thats sweet. 33 
AH: That was her reaction and I just . . . 34 
AJ: I love that. 35 
AH: It just made me feel so much better. 36 
AJ: Yeah. 37 
AH: That she cared that much and that she was accepting.  I didnt know, she was a church organist 1 in a United Methodist Church for 70 years, and I thought, I dont know.  I didnt know how she 2 was going to react to this.  I didnt know what influence outside information would have on her 3 about transgender identity.  I had no idea how it was going to go and so I was very pleased that 4 she was open and accepting of that.  So I had some pretty good coming out stories with the 5 people closest to me.  I lost some people, I lost some friends.  I had a really good friend that, at 6 the time he moved to Las Vegas with his wife for work reasons  he was one of my best friends, 7 and when I came out to him he, I think, was a little bit stunned and he acted like it wasnt a big 8 deal but the reality was I never really could communicate much with him after that.  He stopped 9 answering emails, he wouldnt answer the phone because Caller ID would show it was me.  Id 10 leave messages and hed never call me back.  Some years later . . . he had had a website, he was 11 a teacher and also another photographer, and he had a website and I went out to look at his 12 website and it was no longer there.   So I wondered what happened and I started doing some 13 more research and I found an obituary for him, that he had passed away six months before I 14 found that out.  I contacted his daughter-in-law here in Minnesota and I asked, Well, what 15 happened?  I never heard anything or knew anything.  They said they tried to get in touch with 16 me but, honestly, my phone number hadnt changed, at that time, in 20 years, my address 17 hadnt changed in 20 years and there was absolutely no reason they couldnt have gotten a hold 18 of me if theyd really tried and wanted to. 19 
AJ: Sure. 20 
AH: So I felt very hurt and very saddened by that, that we never stayed connected and I think it was 21 because I was trans.  I dont think he was able to deal with that very well, and so I lost him as a 22 friend and that was very painful for me.  There was other people that just are not a part of my 23 life because . . . one person said, I just cant deal with . . . its always in my face this transgender 24 stuff.  Well, how is that in your face?  I rarely even talk about it but I think just the very act of 25 my being there was there.  And it was funny because he was always able to, in this group of 26 friends, talk about what he was doing and all the things that were important to him in his life, 27 but I never felt like I was allowed to do that.  In fact, I was always very careful to not talk much 28 about it because I didnt feel that it was something that that particular community of friends . . . 29 I mean, everybody had a different take on it, but a number of them werent that accepting of 30 who I was as a trans person.  They always got pronouns wrong, there was always that.  And I 31 thought . . . and I would correct them on it once in a while.  I would say, Could you please work 32 on that?  Well, were trying, youre just not accepting of it.  I said, Its been 10 years, dont 33 you think you could get it right by now.   34 
AJ: Right.  Wow.  Boy, 10 years of the wrong pronouns.  I think I may have dropped those friends. 35 
AH: Well, we ultimately did drop them.  It came to a head when one of them was going to be 36 running in a 5K for benefit of the Salvation Army.  And somebody suggested that this group of 37 friends volunteer to help out with the 5K and asked, What do you all think of this idea?  And I 38 took that as an opportunity and I responded and I said, I dont think its a good idea at all and 39 Im not going to do it and Ill tell you why and its because of the history of the Salvation Army of 40 discrimination and hatred and causing . . .  I mean the horror stories of peoples experiences 41 that are LGBTQ with the Salvation Army  trying to find shelters, there was a case where a trans 42 woman in Texas died because she was not allowed into the womens shelter  they told her she 43 had to go to the mens shelter and she didnt feel safe there so she slept on the front sidewalk in 1 front of the doorway of the womens shelter and they had an unusual cold snap for Texas and 2 they found her dead the next morning.   3 
AJ: Oh no. 4 
AH: And it was because of the policies of the Salvation Army to not allow her in as a trans person.  5 There was two guys in Kentucky that were told they had to break up as a couple, they couldnt 6 access shelters if they were a couple.  And another was a public relations officer saying that all 7 LGBT parents should . . . I forget what a horrible fate he wanted for them, but he went on the 8 radio and said this, on public radio.  And so, I expressed concerns about being a part of that and 9 it kind of blew up.  One person told me that they couldnt be in the same room with me 10 anymore and it was just that I . . . was a person they couldnt be around.  All right, you dont 11 have to be  Im not going to be. 12 
AJ: Yes. 13 
AH: So broke off with that whole group of friends, which was unfortunate because I felt like while 14 we didnt agree with everybody on everything, it was still a group activity that was fun to be a 15 part of. 16 
AJ: Right. 17 
AH: So I lost friends. 18 
AJ: Thats unfortunate, their loss. 19 
AH: Thank you.  Its everybodys loss. 20 
AJ: To the extent that you feel comfortable, Anne, can you talk about any medical interventions you 21 have undergone in your gender journey? 22 
AH: Certainly.  I went through the transgender program at the University of Minnesotas Program on 23 Human Sexuality.   24 
AJ: Here? 25 
AH: Here, PHS.  Went through therapy there.  I worked with a physician there and went through 26 hormones, was on hormones for 10 years and went off of those after 10 years.  She actually 27 wanted me to go off at nine but I somehow like that number 10  its a magic number, I dont 28 know why.  Went off of hormones for medical . . . just because its not something she would do 29 is to keep somebody on hormones that long because of the opportunities for damage to the 30 liver and other body parts and functions.  So I went off of hormones, I had the SRS surgery, the 31 gender confirmation surgery coming up on 11 years ago now.   32 
AJ: Oh wow.   33 
AH: I had breast augmentation done and I have done a little bit of . . . Ive done laser for hair 34 removal on my face  and I need to go back and do more of that.  It doesnt last.   35 
AJ: Oh really. 36 
AH: Yeah, laser is not the same as electrolysis and over time our body regenerates new hair cells and 1 so its something to do again.   2 
AJ: At least on certain parts of our body. 3 
AH: Yeah, on certain parts of our body.  Hormones put an end to a lot of the body hair, but in terms 4 of facial hair, that seems to be the area where it seems to want to regenerate the most.   5 
AJ: You talked about this level of increased visibility and such, the horrible legislation thats 6 happening in many states, when you look out 50 years from now, where do you think the 7 transgender community is going to be and will the broader LGB community be a part of that?   8 
AH: Hmm, those are two really good questions.  Excuse me, Im coming off a big cold. 9 
AJ: Oh, Im sorry.  But Im glad youre feeling better though. 10 
AH: I am feeling better but Im hoarse.  Well, 50 years from now, I hope and, of course, thats all it 11 can be is hope, we cant really see where were going.  My hope is that we are more accepted, 12 that we become more understood, that we have this acceptance of the reality that this is how 13 people are born.  I think we still, in 2016, have a lot of people that believe that this is a choice, 14 its a lifestyle choice.  The word that we so often use about sexual orientation and gender 15 identity is its a lifestyle rather than life.  This is a life, its not a lifestyle  its a life.  My hope is 16 that there will be this much broader understanding by a lot more people in the world that this is 17 a part of how people can be just as being right-handed or left-handed can be, having blue eyes, 18 having brown eyes, having different colors of skin, having any number of physical and 19 psychological attributes just as some people are born with diabetes, some people have cancer, 20 some people are tall, some people are not as tall, some people have blonde hair, some people 21 have brown  hair, some people have black hair, some people have . . . all these things that were 22 born with that make us different, are what sets us apart and yet if you peel all of that away, we 23 are all the same.  We are all a human being and thats what I want people to see.  I want that to 24 be the most important part of all of our identities is that were human beings. 25 
AJ: Right. 26 
AH: Instead of being known as a transgender woman, I want to be known as a human being first and 27 foremost.  I think that gets taken for granted, that gets forgotten, that gets missed too often 28 when people start looking at differences.  They forget that at our core identity we are all human 29 beings and we have hopes and we have dreams and we have feelings.  We all express these 30 differently.  I express mine differently than you do and you do yours differently than somebody 31 else does.  We all have these variations in the identity of being a human being.  And so my hope 32 is that this difference, this thing of being transgender, being something unique and different, is 33 not what it is today and that someday, I mean if I really am dreaming big, were seen as having 34 had unique experiences that are valuable.  That to have an understanding and to have a peek 35 into the world of being both male and female, regardless of whether you were born female 36 bodied and express a masculine identity or whether you were born male bodied and express a 37 feminine identity or whether you are somewhere in-between, that having that knowledge will 38 be seen as important.  I read an article last night that was in Time Magazine and it interviewed 39 several transgender men about their experiences interacting with other men that didnt know 40 that these men were transgender and how they saw how women were treated by men when 1 the women werent present.  The experiences that they had, it was kind of like being a spy  2 that they got to see just how, in this particular instance as they were pointing out some of the 3 pretty bad ways that women are treated by men behind the scenes, behind their backs.  Im 4 hoping that someday somebody will say, That is really valuable information for us, to know that 5 experience as to what is it like.  These trans men are looking at this interaction with these other 6 men with an entirely different lens, theyre looking at it from the perspective of having grown 7 up, to some degree in their life, being identified as female.  And now theyre in an entirely 8 different circle, theyre seeing how women are viewed by other . . . by men, some, and certainly 9 this isnt the case for all of them and I dont believe that all people treat all people badly.  I think 10 theres a lot of good in the world. 11 
AJ: Absolutely.   12 
AH: But I think theres some interesting perspectives there that are not being valued, yet.  And my 13 hope is that 50 years from now our perspectives are valued, our lens is valued as something to 14 contribute to society.  I hope that in the future people are not discriminated against simply for 15 being trans, as we are today.  I would suggest to anybody viewing this 50 years from now, 100 16 years from now, that if they can find a copy of the surveys that have been done six years ago 17 and the one this past year on discrimination of LGBT people  the first one, Injustice at Every 18 Turn. 19 
AJ: Trans people specifically. 20 
AH: Im sorry, of transgender people, its called Injustice at Every Turn and it was conducted by the 21 task force and the National Center for Transgender Equality.  Read the statistics on that.  My 22 hope is that they are able to continue this, as they are dreaming of and doing it every five years, 23 and my hope is that they will ask enough of the same questions that were asked the very first 24 survey, that we will be able to, over a period of 25 years or 50 years, take a look at how that 25 treatment of transgender people has changed and how, hopefully, its improved. 26 
AJ: Yeah. 27 
AH: I want to see the statistics on that, before I die, change to a much better scenario than how they 28 are now.   29 
AJ: Wow.  I think I absolutely want to see that too.  I hope your vision becomes a reality. 30 
AH: I hope so, I hope so. 31 
AJ: Thank you for being here today.   32 
AH: Youre so welcome. 33 
AJ: Its been a beautiful and amazing conversation.  Thank you for letting us have a little insight into 34 your journey. 35 
AH: Yes. 36 
AJ: And until we meet again, my friend. 37 
AH: Indeed.  I hope you have been on this side of the camera. 1 
AJ: Well . . .  2 
AH: And I hope you will. 3 
AJ: I will.   4 
AH: And if you want, Im willing to be on the other side of the camera to ask the questions. 5 
AJ: All right.  OK.  Thank you. 6 
AH: Youre welcome. 7 

