 
 
 
 
Ejay Jack Narrator   Andrea Jenkins Interviewer 
    
The Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies University of Minnesota 
 September 15, 2015 
 
 
 

   
 
  
The Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story, while providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source material about the transgender community.  The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for current and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public. 
The Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300 individuals over the next three years.  Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and experiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality.  This project will be led by Andrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist.  Andrea brings years of experience working in government, non-profits and LGBT organizations.  If you are interested in being involved in this exciting project, please contact Andrea. 
Andrea Jenkins jenki120@umn.edu (612) 625-4379 
 
 
 
 
  
Andrea Jenkins  -AJ 1 
Ejay Jack  -EJ 2 
 3 
 4 
AJ: Good morning. 5 
EJ: Good morning. 6 
AJ: My name is Andrea Jenkins and I am the oral historian for the Transgender Oral History Project 7 at the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  Today is September 15, 2016, and I am 8 today in downtown Minneapolis at the Hennepin County Health Services building and Im here 9 today to interview Ejay Jack.  10 
EJ: Yes. 11 
AJ: How you doing, Ejay? 12 
EJ: Im good, Im good  a little nervous. 13 
AJ: Hey, dont be nervous, man.  Its the story of your life so I think you know that story better than 14 anybody else, I would suspect.  Thank you for being willing to participate in this project today.  15 So, Ejay, if you dont mind, just start by introducing yourself, state your name and how you spell 16 it, what your gender identity is today, and what your gender was assigned at birth, and as well 17 as what pronouns do you use. 18 
EJ: OK.  So, Im Ejay Jack and I spell my first name E-j-a-y, last name J-a-c-k.   19 
AJ: Thats quite a name, Ive got to say. 20 
EJ: Thank you, thank you  well, its chosen.   21 
AJ: Absolutely.   22 
EJ: I identify as a trans guy and my sex assigned at birth was female.  Did I miss something? 23 
AJ: Your pronouns. 24 
EJ: Pronouns  he and him. 25 
AJ: He and him.  How did you come to your name? 26 
EJ: So, when I first came out I was really androgynous and gender queer and I wanted to make sure 27 that I kept with that.  I didnt like my first name, which was too feminine, and I didnt want to 28 use my last name as my first name because I would have had two first names  Jack, which was 29 too masculine, so I combined them into initials but then spelled it out so it was gender neutral.   30 
AJ: Wow.  Thats a pretty interesting formula.   31 
EJ: Yeah, you know  it took a while and friends helped.  32 
AJ: Yeah, Jack Jack might not have really been that great.   33 
EJ: Or the reverse wasnt going to work either.   1 
AJ: Oh boy.  So Ejay, tell me what is your earliest memory in life.  What is the first thing you recall?  2 And it doesnt have to deal with your gender identity, although if it does thats perfectly fine.   3 
EJ: Thats a hard question because Im not entirely sure, and its probably later than what Ive heard 4 most people . . . so, I think my earliest memory, and its not super clear, would be being outside 5 and being active and participating with gardening activities or outside on the lawn with my 6 father.   7 
AJ: Oh wow. 8 
EJ: Like kind of super attached to him and what he was doing.   9 
AJ: Really? 10 
EJ: Whether it was working on cars and mechanics or . . . yeah, just building something.  It was 11 usually just hanging out with him around the house. 12 
AJ: Hanging out with dad. 13 
EJ: Yup, yup.   14 
AJ: As a little girl? 15 
EJ: Yes, as a little girl.   16 
AJ: Was that . . . how did your folks accept that?  Was your dad sort of open to that?  Did you have 17 other siblings  brothers and sisters? 18 
EJ: Yeah, so . . . I would say gender wasnt really discussed or talked about, there was no meta 19 process in my family.  I was just me and I just happened to be a tomboy from very, very young.  20 Im the youngest of three children and I have two siblings  my sister is five years younger than I 21 am and my brother is 10 years older than I am, so theres quite a gap.  And we have different 22 fathers, so they have the same mother and father and I have a different father than them.  And 23 so, you know, my father was fine and taught me how to work on cars and taught me anything 24 that he was doing.  He just let me pal around with him.  My mother wanted, I think, me to pal 25 around with her but I wasnt really interested in the traditional gender activities that were 26 happening in my household.  My mom was mostly cooking or cleaning . . .  27 
AJ: Baking. 28 
EJ: Yeah, yeah.  All into shopping and dressing up and I wanted nothing to do with that.  So yeah. 29 
AJ: So, this was your biological dad then not your stepdad.   30 
EJ: Correct, biological father.   31 
AJ: OK, which was your siblings stepdad, I gather. 32 
EJ: Yes. 33 
AJ: Wow, where was all of this happening at?  Where were you born? 34 
EJ: This was in rural Pennsylvania, in the northwest corner between Erie and Pittsburgh, in a small 1 town called Oil City, Pennsylvania. 2 
AJ: Thats the name of the town, Oil City? 3 
EJ: Yup. 4 
AJ: All right. 5 
EJ: Its about 12,000 people, or it was. 6 
AJ: Do you ever go back there?   7 
EJ: I do, about once a year or once every two years? 8 
AJ: Your folks are still there? 9 
EJ: My mother still lives there, my father passed away about five years ago.   10 
AJ: Im sorry to hear that.  And have you gone back in your current incarnation as Ejay?   11 
EJ: I have.  I dont go out much, mainly because its super conservative.  The ideals that are 12 predominant in that area, I do not agree with.  Theres a lot of Confederate flags and . . .  13 
AJ: Wow, in Pennsylvania? 14 
EJ: Yeah, its considered Pennsyl-tucky, like that whole thing, they joke about that.  But I go home 15 to visit my mother and we dont really go out much because I think its hard for her to navigate 16 and hard for her to explain why her youngest child is a man.   17 
AJ: Wow.   18 
EJ: I took my partner there and I think she summed it up pretty well which was that she was 19 surprised that I made it out alive and thats sometimes how I feel.   20 
AJ: Wow, really? 21 
EJ: Yeah. 22 
AJ: So what was it like growing up there?  So you lived there your entire life, right? 23 
EJ: Yeah, so I lived there until I was 18 and then I went to Penn State University, which is another 24 small town in Pennsylvania.  But it was . . . it was tough.  Its predominantly a white community, 25 it was predominantly Christian.  I graduated high school in 1998, so there wasnt a ton of LGBT 26 activism going on, let alone in a small town. 27 
AJ: Sure.  And you recognized your queer-ness? 28 
EJ: Yeah, so I came out in high school as a lesbian in 1997, which threw my folks off and that didnt 29 go very well because they were teachers in the school district and in that community it was all 30 about your image and what you put out to the community.  So, that didnt go over well.  My 31 parents divorced when I was in 3rd grade so I kind of found a safe haven with my father, 32 however my father remarried and had another family so I didnt really have space at his house.  I 33 wasnt really fitting in at my mothers house so I was very secluded.  I had a couple of really 34 
close friends that knew that I was a lesbian at the time and trying to discover, sort of figure out, 1 now retrospectively its nuanced. 2 
AJ: Yeah, gender identity but that wasnt . . .  3 
EJ: Gender identity and trans identities werent really known to me at that point so I just grasped 4 what I could with which was to be a lesbian.  Yeah, so I never got . . . I didnt get bullied too 5 much because I was strong and people were scared of me because, I think, I was a silent, dont 6 mess with me kind of person.  So that was my self-protective faade that I put out there.   7 
AJ: I just want to be clear, dont feel like you have to censor your language or yourself in this 8 conversation, feel free to be as expressive as you need to be, but not to say go on a swearing 9 rant or anything like that.  But I just want you to feel like you can express yourself freely. 10 
EJ: OK. 11 
AJ: So you were kind of a tough guy? 12 
EJ: Yup, as a self-protective measure.   13 
AJ: So you were a tomboy all through life, were you an athlete at all? 14 
EJ: Yeah, so I was a swimmer, which was tough because I was very good at swimming but I didnt 15 like the skimpy womens suit and its . . .  16 
AJ: How did you handle that? 17 
EJ: I think I just repressed the fact and it was more about just focusing on the athleticism and 18 beating my time and beating my competitors in the pool.   19 
AJ: Wow.  Any other sports? 20 
EJ: I did mountain biking because the trails in Pennsylvania are amazing.  So I got into mountain 21 biking and I had visions of doing triathlons, those were relatively new but there werent any 22 locals so it took me 15 years to do my first one.  So I was into . . . and I did rock climbing and 23 then did I did some whitewater rafting, just south of Pittsburgh there is a river. So I was more 24 outdoors . . .  25 
AJ: Outdoorsy kind of stuff. 26 
EJ: Yeah.  Hiking . . .  27 
AJ: The sort of things that are stereotyped or classified as male activities. 28 
EJ: Yeah, yup. 29 
AJ: What were your brothers and sisters like growing up? I kind of get the sense your mom was a 30 little uncomfortable with the lesbian identity and not wanting to go shopping and all of those 31 things.  Were your brother and sister sort of in the same category?  They sound like theyre a 32 little older.   33 
EJ: My sister was five years older so she was around, we were very different.  She was a girly-girl 34 and I was not.  And my brother, I dont really remember him much in the house.  I remember . . . 35 this is another early memory, he was a wrestler and a football player and I was in elementary 1 school when he was in high school and so we would mess around and he would wrestle with me 2 and he would tell me that his coach told him that he needed to practice at home.  So he would 3 practice on me, which I loved.  I was excited about that and I wanted to be a wrestler, mainly 4 because of him, but I wasnt allowed in high school because thats what boys do.  So, thats my 5 main memory of him.   6 
AJ: OK.  So it was kind of cool, he was treating you like his kid sibling basically.  So no bullying in the 7 household per se? 8 
EJ: No, no bullying in the household. 9 
AJ: Thats good.  Wow.  So when did you realize that you were not the gender you were assigned at 10 birth? 11 
EJ: I realized that my freshman to sophomore year of college.  So, 1999.  And that came about by 12 reading Leslie Feinbergs Stone Butch Blues and Pat Califias work and reading those sources and 13 hearing the word gender queer, reading it, and recognizing that I didnt have to identify as a 14 man or a woman, and that fit me.  Yeah, it just felt really true to who I was and so consumed all 15 of that and just journals and resources that I dont have any more but yeah . . . just consuming 16 all the literature while at Penn State, and came out and then tried to fit what was my name. 17 
AJ: So you came out as trans in college? 18 
EJ: Yes.  Well really . . . yeah, androgynous, gender queer, trans.  So yeah. 19 
AJ: What labels have you used to identify yourself and how has that changed over time? 20 
EJ: Yeah, its changed quite a bit.  So yeah, it started lesbian and then, like I just said, gender queer, 21 androgynous, transgender.  But I didnt really latch on to transgender, it was mainly gender 22 queer and androgynous for about 10 years  starting in 1998, 1999, for about 10 years until 23 about 2008 when I started hormones.  Mainly because I got older and my body was like, Whoa, 24 Im not a young supple person that can do things.  I needed to take some medical interventions 25 that felt right for me so I started taking hormones then.    26 
AJ: And then, have you dont any other medical . . . I mean, to the extent that you feel comfortable. 27 
EJ: Yeah, so I was on hormones and then I had . . . Ive always had a really muscular body, so I had a 28 really small chest so I just had a little bit of liposuction done on my chest.  So I dont have the 29 stars that are typical of trans men, so Im not identifiable when my shirt is off in that way.   30 
AJ: Wow, thats interesting.  It puts you in sort of a different sphere from a lot of trans men who I 31 just know from being in community that being able to go out without a shirt is sort of a prized 32 experience. 33 
EJ: Yup, totally believe that. 34 
AJ: And to do that without having sort of the visible scars, because the scars can be pretty intense.  I 35 dont know why they have to be that intense for trans men because I dont think theyre that 36 intense for women who have mastectomies related to cancer. 37 
EJ: Right.   1 
AJ: But the scars that Ive seen for trans men seem to be really intense.  So to be able to do that, 2 how does that make you feel relative to other trans brothers? 3 
EJ: Its a double-edged sword and I would say even looking like this is also a double-edged sword, 4 being able to pass, because I can pass for safety, I can pass for work reasons so employment . . . 5 so sort of all these issues that my trans brothers and sisters might have, I havent necessarily 6 experienced and I recognize that.  But at the same time . . . so thats like a lot of the privilege, 7 right?  A lot of the white male privilege that I embody or am offered, if you will.  On the flip side 8 is that Im going 10 years as gender queer, sometimes that history is erased because then Im 9 not seen as part of the community unless I fully out myself.  I balance my outing myself with also 10 taking up space as a white male and so theres always this balance that I am considering and 11 thinking about when Im in queer spaces or women trans and femme spaces.  So its a different 12 navigation.  I had to navigate it as an androgynous gender queer person, as getting misgendered 13 and being thought that I was much younger than what I actually was, and now that I look the 14 way I do through my transition, Im navigating being in my queer community, being included in 15 my queer community, while making sure that Im not taking up space and acknowledging my 16 privilege that I have.  So its been an interesting journey.   17 
AJ: Do you think some trans men express any jealousy because you dont have those scars? 18 
EJ: I havent experienced the jealousy and it might be because Im not usually hanging out with 19 trans men with our shirts off. 20 
AJ: Right, yeah. 21 
EJ: Or swimming with them or whatever.  But, I know its . . . not a limitation but a difference of 22 experience so . . . yeah.  I mean sometimes I wish I had the scars so that I could be seen as trans, 23 absolutely, and sometimes Im glad that I dont.  Sometimes I wish I had a different surgery 24 because its not exactly what I thought or wanted, so theres also that piece too. 25 
AJ: Sure.  Wow, you bring up a lot of really interesting ideas but just before we keep moving on, I 26 mean . . . hormones, lipo, any other medical interventions that youve had? 27 
EJ: Yes.  I had a full hysterectomy.   28 
AJ: Wow. 29 
EJ: I was just talking to a person last night and they wanted to ask me questions and we were just 30 discussing this stuff, so it was quite timely because I havent had many people ask me recently. 31 
AJ: Yeah, its interesting  you dont necessarily talk about your trans identity that much, and 32 particularly the details of it.  Right?  Thats my experience anyway. 33 
EJ: Yeah, its really hard for me.  Not because I dont want to be out, but . . . Im not sure really what 34 it is.  I guess I come out as a way to advocate for other people.  Ive always just felt like Ejay, 35 from being a young girl working with my dad in high school, being androgynous and gender 36 queer for 10 years, Ive always just sort of said, Im just Ejay, whatever my gender is.  I made 37 these decisions to transition and look the way that I look now, but gender is so fluid and 38 changing so I have a hard time knowing when to sort of say, Yeah, Im trans too.  When I 1 would do that, I guess Im always thinking of what does that add to the conversation and 2 particularly if Im with people in the community, Im always . . . and theres other trans people 3 around, I think its important to allow space for other people to talk.  Im always just navigating 4 that and being really mindful and tend to try to just make sure I listen more and come out or . . . 5 I come out probably more in non-trans spaces when I hear gender essentialism or misogynistic 6 or racist comments, thats when I dont necessarily . . . sometimes I come out or sometimes I 7 just speak . . .  8 
AJ: Check the behavior.  Well, thats good to know because thats where its most effective, I think.  9 But it also, as you noted, I think coming out within trans community gives you a level of 10 credibility to be able to participate in the conversation too.   11 
EJ: Yeah. 12 
AJ: Yeah.  So this notion of passing, Im really kind of interested in.  And you spoke about it relative 13 to safety and to employment.  How has it impacted your relationships?   14 
EJ: Friendship and romantic relationships? 15 
AJ: Yeah.  Mostly romantic. 16 
EJ: Well, more so romantic.  My sexual orientation is queer so I date women and men and Ive 17 dated trans people as well.   18 
AJ: You lucky guy. 19 
EJ: I know, right.  I love the person, that whole adage.  Thats always a timing piece as well, so talk 20 about coming out, right?  When youre interested in someone and want to date somebody and 21 you want them to know you for who you are and not what you have between your legs.  So, Im 22 in a primary relationship with my female partner and she knew that I was trans pretty early on. 23 
AJ: Cis gender? 24 
EJ: Cis gender female, yes.  And, she identified as queer, more lesbian.  So, I came out early and we 25 talked about it.   26 
AJ: And so now you guys are a straight couple. 27 
EJ: Which is problematic.  She didnt know if she wanted to date me for a long time, or once we got 28 in a relationship she was having issues because . . . yeah, we look like a straight couple.  Talk 29 about erasure again of our lived experience and reality.   30 
AJ: I just want to be clear, I saw that lovingly. 31 
EJ: Yeah, yeah  yeah.  I was getting there, I was getting there.  Yeah, so the same thing as sort of 32 what I said, when we see problematic behavior we have to sort of speak up and say, You know, 33 thats not cool. 34 
AJ: Do you guys hang out in queer community mostly?  Or straight community?  Or you just kind of 35 float back and forth to where . . .  36 
EJ: We float back and forth.  We have a lot of queer friends that we kind of hang out one-on-one.  1 As I got older Im boring and Im kind of a stay-in-the house or see me running or biking.  So Im 2 not the activist that I used to be when I was younger, so Im not in like community in regards to 3 advocacy.  Ill do speaking when I think its needed.  So when the legislature might need a 4 convincing face and I can sort of stand up there and then when I come out they kind of have to 5 check themselves because they assume a lot of things.  Thats what Ive slowly . . . evolved, I 6 guess, into.   7 
AJ: OK. 8 
EJ: I also date men, so thats also . . . gay men, primarily cis gender gay men.  Thats a very different 9 ballgame.  The apps nowadays, the hook-up apps . . .  10 
AJ: Tinder, Grindr, those kinds of things? 11 
EJ: Grindr, SCRUFF  yeah.  They now have transgender . . .  12 
AJ: SCRUFF, did you say? 13 
EJ: Yes. 14 
AJ: OK, I dont know this one.  15 
EJ: Yeah, so you can identify that you are a bear or whatever, and then one is transgender.  They 16 dont identify what that means, its like the umbrella category.  So sometimes I put that on my 17 profile, sometimes I dont, but thats a whole other experience  coming out to gay men.  Some 18 of them are very respectful, its becoming more and more respectful, but five or eight years ago 19 it was not.  It was not always a safe place to be.   20 
AJ: Really?  Kind of brutal? 21 
EJ: Yeah, very brutal.  Very just . . . you know, granted theyre hook-up sites so sometimes people 22 are only looking for sex, but not everybody thats on there.  But regardless of what people were 23 looking for, there was . . . and still to this day there are, but very much whats between your 24 legs? why is it that someone who is born a female transitions to be a male and now is a gay 25 male?  How does that even work?  So all this, but with very rude, very real language. 26 
AJ: So that brings up, what do you think is the relationship between the L, the G, the B and the T?   27 
EJ: Thats a good question.  I definitely havent figured it out but Ill just say this, from my 28 perspective and from a lot of the trans guys that Im friends with.  I ran a support group for trans 29 guys . . .  30 
AJ: Oh really?  Here in the Twin Cities? 31 
EJ: No, in Omaha, Nebraska, where I moved from. 32 
AJ: What was it called? 33 
EJ: Just a trans masculine support group, and for their partners too.   34 
AJ: Were there a lot of trans men in Omaha, Nebraska?  35 
EJ: Yeah, thats where I transitioned  yeah.  Thats where I found my first doctor and my first 1 community. 2 
AJ: Is that right? 3 
EJ: Yeah, theres quite a few. 4 
AJ: So is it a pretty welcoming community for trans identities? 5 
EJ: It is.  Its tighter knit, I would say, than the Twin Cities, because theres fewer individuals. 6 
AJ: Right, and the city is a little smaller too.   7 
EJ: Yeah, definitely smaller.  But, yeah, there is a support group and people were great and 8 supportive in sharing information and ideas, and a lot of social events as well. 9 
AJ: Wow, separate from the broader LGBT community? 10 
EJ: Yeah.   11 
AJ: So, do you think that the T sort of belongs with the other letters of the infamous acronym? 12 
EJ: Yeah, I guess so.  I havent really thought about that.  I think sexuality and gender are closely 13 linked and I think theyre both fluid. 14 
AJ: Yes. 15 
EJ: And I think as a minority group, whether we would want to split it up or not, and Im not 16 advocating for . . . the LGBTQI get lumped together and some of the letters are more silent than 17 the others depending on whats the most interesting topic of the day.  But I think theres . . . for 18 advocacy reasons and getting laws of protections, its important to be together.   19 
AJ: Right. 20 
EJ: But there is always nuances and differences and . . .  21 
AJ: And the reality is that, as evidenced by your own personal life, that trans-identified people can 22 be lesbian, bisexual, gay, heterosexual.   23 
EJ: And thats what I was going to say is that my own experience is such that when I own my gender 24 queer, and really transitioned into identifying more as transgender, for me, that kind of 25 coincided with really a few years before starting testosterone, is that when I started 26 testosterone in my medical transition, that allowed me to own my feminine identity a little bit 27 more, and my feminine side of my gender, and it also allowed me to feel more comfortable with 28 men in a sexual relationship or romantic.  So one led to the other, where I think I had been 29 attracted . . . I had boyfriends in high school before I came out as lesbian and I was trying to 30 figure out the gender stuff, but I couldnt like men and be a lesbian so I had to shut that part of 31 me off and it wasnt until I could really actualize who I was in my gender, that I could say, No, 32 those attractions still exist, its just really nuanced.  33 
AJ: And theyre valid. 34 
EJ: Right, absolutely. 35 
AJ: What have been some of the more challenging things that you have experienced since you came 1 out as transgender?   2 
EJ: So, I live . . . I came out as gender queer in college and was in college for four years, and then I 3 was in the Peace Corps in The Gambia, West Africa, and so for two years my gender didnt really 4 matter or it was also going back into the closet, if you will, because . . . I dont want to say its a 5 luxury, because thats not true, but when youre in the face of extreme poverty and just dealing 6 with meeting your basic needs . . .  7 
AJ: Gender becomes less of a priority, I would suspect. 8 
EJ: And I was also, clearly Im white, living in rural Gambia and with no running water, no electricity, 9 in a small village of maybe 100, 150 people, where at least half of them, or one-third of them, 10 were children.  I was just different to begin with, right?  I glowed in the dark and if I walked 11 around at night I scared people, for real. 12 
AJ: Oh my goodness, like a ghost, huh? 13 
EJ: Yeah, yeah.  So that gave me some perspective in lots of different ways, but I wasnt really doing 14 any kind of activism, I wasnt really exploring any medical transition at that time.  I would still 15 read books that I had brought with me but I was more just exploring the world and 16 understanding who I was in the world very generally.  So that was . . . and then people would 17 ask me in Mandinka, which was the language that I learned, if I was a man or a woman and I 18 would say both, and they just thought that I didnt know the language.  So I did all these small 19 things to feel true to myself, but at the same time it didnt really matter in the larger context.  I 20 took a gender neutral name, Sahjo, which is the name that comes after when somebody has 21 twins  so either a man or a woman could be named Sahjo. 22 
AJ: Oh really, how do you spell Sahjo?   23 
EJ: S-a-h-j-o.  Its a non-written language so its also . . . like you might see it spelled different ways.   24 
AJ: Isnt Kunta Kinte from Gambia, West Africa, the Mandinka tribe?  Yeah.   25 
EJ: I dont know.  Yeah, well thats . . .  26 
AJ: Do you know the story of Roots.  Have you ever watched that documentary or read the book?   27 
EJ: I watched it when it first came out, but I havent . . .  28 
AJ: You were pretty young. 29 
EJ: Yes. 30 
AJ: Yes, that is where Kunte Kinta originated from.   31 
EJ: Huh, well now Ill have to read it, the book, because I havent read the book. 32 
AJ: Yeah, its a great book.  West Africa, right? 33 
EJ: Yeah. 34 
AJ: Wow, thats a pretty interesting experience.  So that was a challenge having to sort of hide your 1 identity.  Any other challenges like with institutions or educational, medical, health care?   2 
EJ: You know, theres always the fear of seeing a new practitioner or new medical provider and 3 having to . . . you know, if they see something in my chart, testosterone, they start asking me 4 and its not really pertinent for that specific visit.   5 
AJ: Right, you have strep throat and they want to know why youre taking testosterone.   6 
EJ: Right.  But I would say Ive been really lucky in regards to employment.  I transitioned, my 7 medical transition, was when I was in grad school so I had the protection of higher education 8 and being a student.   9 
AJ: You went to grad school at Penn State as well? 10 
EJ: No, I went to grad school in Omaha, at the University of Nebraska at Omaha. 11 
AJ: OK.  What did you study? 12 
EJ: I studied social work and public administration.  So a masters social worker. 13 
AJ: And you have a pretty great job now. 14 
EJ: Yes, I do. 15 
AJ: Whats your title? 16 
EJ: So Im Community Health . . . let me see here, Community Health Programs Supervisor.  What 17 that basically means, its a governmental title.  I supervise the HIV prevention and outreach 18 teams at the Red Door, the Hennepin County Public Health Clinic. 19 
AJ: OK, wow. 20 
EJ: Yeah. 21 
AJ: Is HIV still a problem for trans-identified people? 22 
EJ: Absolutely.  And theres no national validated statistics about that but all the research that we 23 see is that, specifically, transgender women of color have higher rates, potentially higher rates 24 than the MSM population.  So hopefully in the next couple of years the CDC will get us national 25 data on that.  But, its problematic and it just . . . the HIV incidence rates in transgender women 26 of color just got recognized by our first national HIV/AIDS strategy 2.0, I would say.  So finally 27 calling attention to it so, of course, if theres no attention then theres no data then theres no 28 money to really do the work.  So were just starting to see that and we have a small grant here 29 that I applied for and we got so were starting . . .  30 
AJ: Specifically related to transgender women of color? 31 
EJ: Yeah, thats our main target.  Well sort of see anybody, because theres also trans men who 32 have sex with men . . .  33 
AJ: Absolutely. 34 
EJ: But the main, whats really been talked about, is transgender women of color.  Soon I think trans 1 men who have sex with men is going to be getting more attention. 2 
AJ: But theoretically, there are services for men who have sex with men and since trans men are 3 men, they have a higher likelihood of getting services than trans women who dont necessarily 4 get classified as women.   5 
EJ: Right, CDC still classifies them as . . .  6 
AJ: Men who have sex with men.  Its so frustrating because I was part of the historic first 7 transgender consultation with the CDC about HIV and AIDS, which I think was in . . . like 1995.   8 
EJ: I think I have that journal that came out of that  yeah, where youre recognized. 9 
AJ: It was 16 years ago and still no pertinent movement to speak of even though . . . yeah.  Boy, well 10 what have been some of the joys of your life since youve come out as transgender?  Other than 11 this huge privilege of being a white male. 12 
EJ: Its just being comfortable in my skin and finding my voice.  I struggled with suicide as a high 13 school student, so not having those feelings anymore.  Which really gets me, because I hear 14 about young people committing suicide and the rates of suicide in the trans population, its very 15 real and so my transition has really . . . its amazing how it just washes that away to be able to 16 just be real and have your voice and feel confident and comfortable.  So those are the joys . . . 17 and, you know, I really value being part of this community.  Its beautiful, amazing people doing 18 all sorts of work and the shit that we have to all go through and the resilience of the community 19 is just . . . I feel privileged to be part of it.   20 
AJ: Sure, yeah. 21 
EJ: Thats my joy.   22 
AJ: Oh, wow.  When is the first time you ever met a transgender or gender-queer person? 23 
EJ: Yeah, it was during a panel at Penn State that I almost didnt go to because I was scared.  So 24 yeah, the LGBT Center, at the time, had done a panel with transgender individuals.  This was 25 1999, I believe.  And, of course, I sat in the back and didnt ask any questions.   26 
AJ: Did you introduce yourself to the person afterwards or anything like that? 27 
EJ: No.  Im kind of a quiet person. 28 
AJ: Just naturally, but then I imagine, I know, I became even more withdrawn in situations like that 29 where there may have been a trans person that I identified with but I didnt want to be 30 identified as such and so consequently . . .  31 
EJ: Yeah. 32 
AJ: Who was that person, do you remember?   33 
EJ: I dont remember  it was a panel of a few people.  It was like three or four transgender people, 34 both male to female and female to man.  There werent really any gender-queer folks and thats 35 what I was identifying with at the time so it allowed me to know that transition is possible.  But I 1 dont know who the individuals are, I can still contact . . . the administrators are still there.   2 
AJ: Its not that big of a deal, its just . . .  3 
EJ: Yeah, that wasnt the main point, I was just kind of like . . . you know, you read all this stuff 4 online or in the books and then youre faced with it and its kind of like . . . it can be a little bit 5 mythical when you just read it and you arent faced with it, so when I went to see it and was just 6 like, Wow, OK. 7 
AJ: This is real, this can happen. 8 
EJ: This is real.  Yeah. 9 
AJ: Do you remember the first trans person you actually met and were able to sort of have a 10 conversation with?  Or the first person who had an impact on you?   11 
EJ: Clearly its not right there.   12 
AJ: Not jumping out.  You didnt have a trans father who sort of shepherded you through the maze 13 of hormones and doctors and all of that kind of stuff. 14 
EJ: No, I didnt.  It wasnt until I was at Penn State and I was in The Gambia and then went back to 15 Penn State for two years and then I was in Omaha, and thats when I found the support group.  16 The guys in that group really helped.  I would ask them questions every once in a while, but it 17 wasnt until my best friend in grad school, Tim, who is a lovely gay man among many other 18 identities, who was my model of masculinity and who I could ask guy stuff about.  So it wasnt . . 19 .  20 
AJ: So it wasnt a trans guy? 21 
EJ: No.   22 
AJ: Thats pretty incredible.  Thinking back over your decision to really express your true gender 23 identity, is there anything you would change or . . .? 24 
EJ: You know, probably.  Yes.  I go back and forth on if I would have changed how I started 25 hormones and how much I took.  I have had several friends, since I started, negotiate with their 26 doctor to take lower levels of testosterone because what I hear them saying, it resonated with 27 me about not really wanting to be . . . not feeling quite like a man or a woman, kind of feeling 28 more in-between, so they took enough hormones to stop their period and to deepen their voice 29 and to have some facial hair but that wasnt really what they . . . sort of to become 30 androgynous. 31 
AJ: A little more balanced. 32 
EJ: Yeah.  And I thought well I wonder if I wouldnt have wanted to start that way and whether or 33 not I would have continued to more of a full dose, if you will.  I dont know.  So Ive thought 34 about that but ultimately I am happy with where Im at.  I may not have had a full hysterectomy; 35 I may have kept my ovaries so that I could stop hormones at a certain point in my life because I 36 will always have to take them. 37 
AJ: Right, because your body doesnt produce and you cant live without some hormones, right? 1 
EJ: Hormones, yeah.  So if there are different options there, and I havent fully researched the 2 existing medical literature of what can happen now about just taking the uterus and keeping 3 your ovaries and doing different things like that.   4 
AJ: So theres a lot of research to still be done around trans bodies and trans identities and such. 5 
EJ: Yeah. 6 
AJ: How did you come out to your family and friends? 7 
EJ: So, I was identified as lesbian for a long period of time.  I started hormones before I told my 8 mother that I was transitioning.  I didnt go home for a long period of time and I was on 9 hormones for about six to eight months and I was going home for my brothers wedding.  I had a 10 film called Call Me Kade, which is about a young trans guy who gets on hormone blockers and 11 then transitions and its about his family.  So I went home, my mother and my sister were at my 12 mothers house and myself, and I let them know that I wanted them to watch a film and I 13 wanted to discuss a film.  So I popped it in.  Thats all I said.   14 
AJ: Really?   15 
EJ: So we watched it and afterwards my mother is sitting still and staring at the TV screen.  My 16 sister was like, So . . . And I had changed my name at this point, and she was like, So why did 17 you show us this film, Ejay?  Kind of like prodding me  and she was super supportive. I said, 18 Well, the character Kade, he was transitioning and thats actually what Im in the process of 19 doing.  I told them that Id been on hormones for about six months and would be transitioning.  20 I had changed my name several years before this and that was part of this process.  So, my sister 21 was supportive, my mother went into, How does this happen?  Biologically, nature, why does 22 this occur?   23 
AJ: Looking for the scientific rationale. 24 
EJ: And honestly I think it was more her saying, Did I do something wrong?  What did I do?  How 25 did I play a part in this?  So I referred to PFLAG and answered some of her questions as best as I 26 could.   27 
AJ: Yeah, unfortunately parents always think its something they did or didnt do and typically its 28 not.   29 
EJ: Right. 30 
AJ: That has nothing to do with it whatsoever, other than, I think, supportive parents can make 31 transitioning easier. 32 
EJ: Easier, yeah.  She and I have had several conversations over the years and she still struggles with 33 it.  However, I think shes honestly come to a point where she feels more comfortable with me 34 being a man and dating a woman than me being a lesbian.  It fits her schema of the world, it fits 35 her man and woman, go through life, you get married, you have babies, you do all these things.  36 And so she can live that fantasy.  I dont tell her that I date men as well.   37 
AJ: She doesnt need to know all of that.   1 
EJ: Yeah.   2 
AJ: So this relationship, this sounds pretty serious. 3 
EJ: It is, yeah.   4 
AJ: How long have you guys been together? 5 
EJ: Weve been together . . . it will be three years in October and were getting married next year, in 6 May. 7 
AJ: Youre getting married?   8 
EJ: Yeah, so its serious. 9 
AJ: Wow. 10 
EJ: Were having what I call the deconstructive gay marriage.   11 
AJ: I know, because the passage of marriage equality means nothing in this situation, right? 12 
EJ: Right, right. 13 
AJ: You guys could just get married anyway. 14 
EJ: Yup. 15 
AJ: But how does marriage equality impact your decision to be married and how do you think the 16 issue of marriage equality and sort of the fight and struggle for marriage equality has impacted 17 the transgender community?  So thats two questions. 18 
EJ: OK.  So, marriage equality impacted me and my decision to get married now because it has 19 passed.  I would not have done this, even though I technically could get married earlier  before 20 it passed, because it just . . . the . . . yeah, I dont even know how to launch into the whole thing.  21 But if my community doesnt have access to something, and somehow because I transition now I 22 have access to it  that doesnt feel right to me.  Its my own ethical thoughts and actions.  So 23 now that it has passed, its like, Oh well, this is a possibility.  And that impacted me 24 psychologically, I think  that the tide is turning.  I remember when Hawaii tried to pass it in the 25 1990s and it didnt go anywhere.   26 
AJ: Sure.   27 
EJ: And how marriage equality has impacted the trans community?  You know, I would say it 28 seemed that all the resources, all the LGBT resources  the large organizations that do LGBT 29 rights, human rights campaign . . .  30 
AJ: HRC. 31 
EJ: Yup, task force, Democrats . . . all these sort of groups put resources towards marriage equality 32 and marriage is a privilege and is not, I think, the most pressing issue for trans people.  And so, 33 marriage equality is great but those resources need to be, I think, routed and re-routed and 34 should have been parceled out in my opinion to things that really matter, which I spoke about  1 the rates of suicide in the trans community, and the LGBT community quite frankly too. 2 
AJ: Broadly. 3 
EJ: Homelessness, HIV, health care  just general access to health care.  So, I think it took away 4 from those issues for a long time and I think that that has a major impact.  There hasnt been a 5 role call to those issues like there has been . . . thats equivalent to what marriage equality was. 6 
AJ: Right, not even close. 7 
EJ: So where is that?  Where is the will of our larger communitys resources to be put towards those 8 issues? 9 
AJ: Wow.  Where do you think the agenda for the transgender community should be going 10 forward?  And I guess, put that in the context of Caitlyn Jenner, Laverne Cox, Janet Mock  so all 11 of this sort of trans visibility as well as a number of the issues that you just so clearly articulated 12 around homelessness and suicide rates and unemployment rates, high rates of incidents of HIV 13 and AIDS?  What should the agenda for transgender people be according to Ejay Jack? 14 
EJ: Well, its nice to have really visible trans women out there.  I will say that I really appreciate 15 Janet Mocks, Ive seen her speak a couple of times, her attention to knowing our own history 16 because its really important because trans people really started the LGBT movement. 17 
AJ: Sure, absolutely. 18 
EJ: I think thats a great thing that shes doing on educating not just the trans community or the LGB 19 community, but the larger community.  But the agenda, according to me, I think . . . I think it 20 needs to be . . . I dont know that I can . . . could I rank attention to suicide or homelessness or 21 unemployment or HIV/AIDS ahead of any one of those?  I dont think I can because theyre all 22 interconnected.  So I think the agenda needs to be more about those issues, very actionable and 23 resource driven towards those issues, but the overall is that people who are not trans need to 24 be educated and need to figure it out and figure out their own biases and get over it  and stop 25 regulating where we can go to the bathroom - you know, who we are according to them.  And I 26 dont know how . . . that just happens by coming out and doing these kinds of projects and other 27 things.  If youre talking about specific policy, I think the homelessness, the suicide rates, the 28 access to health care are all intertwined.  So I cant think of any one that I would . . .  29 
AJ: Lift above the others. 30 
EJ: Yeah. 31 
AJ: Yeah . . . no, I certainly hear you.  So, youre the supervisor for a program here at the Red Door 32 at Hennepin County Community Outreach or . . . Community Health, right? 33 
EJ: Yeah, Community Health.  34 
AJ: I know that now you guys have got some specific programming targeted towards transgender 35 people and even more specifically, transgender women of color.  Can you tell us a little bit about 36 that project?   37 
EJ: Yeah, it just started so were still formulating it.  We hired a woman who is well connected who 1 is trans identified and our hope, and I follow her lead really, but our hope is to make sure that 2 (1) our clinic is trans competent because we cant provide any services until we get our house in 3 order, so making sure that were doing what we need to do here and make sure providers are 4 educated, front-line staff are educated, forms are correct  which theyre not right now, theyre 5 close.  And then to be a safe place for the trans community to come and get sexual health 6 services  so HIV, STI testing, pre-exposure prophylaxis to prevent HIV if someone has been 7 exposed  before theyve been exposed, post-exposure prophylaxis if theyve already been 8 exposed.   9 
AJ: Is that PrEP? 10 
EJ: Yeah, PrEP and PEP. Doing a very specific and targeted outreach to ensure that we are allowing 11 trans-identified people to get on PrEP regardless of risk, just because of the high rates in the 12 social and sexual networks.  And, then also doing something like a support group but not quite a 13 support group . . . more a safe place to be able to talk about, really, the intersection of gender 14 identity and sexual orientation, or sexual behavior, and hopefully in a more uplifting way  fun, 15 silly.   16 
AJ: Kiki, as the girls say. 17 
EJ: Yeah, yeah.  Because to go and just sort of complain . . . you can sometimes go into a support 18 group feeling good and then you come out feeling worse. 19 
AJ: Depressed, yeah.   20 
EJ: Yeah, so were going to try and get away from that model.  And then maybe if the community 21 wants or needs it, have trans-specific clinic maybe quarterly or whatever, where it would just be 22 for trans people.  Theres a double-edged sword with that, Im not sure if the community wants 23 that.  So, we have to sort of take the pulse. 24 
AJ: So, when you say a trans-specific clinic, do you mean a day when just transgender people can 25 come and get services?  Or transgender-specific services are provided? 26 
EJ: The former.  So, where trans people its sort of their safe space and time to not run into . . .  27 
AJ: The broader population. 28 
EJ: The broader population, yeah.  Our clinic doesnt do hormones. We do syringe exchange but 29 primarily targeted toward injection drug users, not for hormones  which we might be able to 30 see what we can do with that. 31 
AJ: Yes, it seems like that would be a part of . . . from just my own sort of laymans understanding.  32 A needle going into your arm is a needle going into your arm whether its hormones or heroin.  33 And I know that on the streets people do use dirty needles to inject hormones, unfortunately. 34 
EJ: Yeah, right.  Getting the right size and all of that, and also, lets be honest, thats a great service 35 and its not that different from what we currently exist, so its just having the will to do it 36 internally and my getting higher ups to also approve.  So . . .  37 
AJ: I think thats why its important to have trans people in these positions who really understand 1 the issues and can have the voice and the understanding to speak to those issues. 2 
EJ: Yeah, I would totally agree. 3 
AJ: Yeah.  So, is this project underway or is it starting?  When does it start? 4 
EJ: I think our main kickoff is going to be November 17, 2016. 5 
AJ: Thats right around Transgender Day of Remembrance . . . the 18th, I think. 6 
EJ: Yeah, exactly.  So thats strategic. 7 
AJ: OK. 8 
EJ: And just Transgender Awareness Week that week, so Im trying to partner with some other 9 organizations to do some other things  not just look at the remembrance part which is 10 acknowledging the violence thats done to trans people but lets flip that and be like, Were 11 strong and were positive and were going to also celebrate our lives and everything that we 12 do.  In addition to remembering. 13 
AJ: Yeah, Im on that team - #resilience.   14 
EJ: Yeah, yeah  absolutely. 15 
AJ: Well thats cool, it sounds like a really wonderful service that you guys are building and 16 intending to provide.   17 
EJ: Trying.  Theres restraints because were governmental agencies so we cant do all the fun and 18 exciting things that I would want to do necessarily, or used to be able to do when I worked at 19 Planned Parenthood  and thats where the support group that I used to run was part of.  Its a 20 balancing act. 21 
AJ: Now you mentioned Planned Parenthood and I have always, just personally, been a strong 22 advocate for reproductive rights because I know that a lot of trans people get their health care 23 needs met through Planned Parenthood.  Can you speak to that?  I say it, as sort of an outsider, 24 but as a person who worked there and identifies as trans, how do you think Planned Parenthood 25 impacts trans lives and this sort of . . . and just speak about this sort of right-wing attack on 26 Planned Parenthood.  I dont want to sound accusatory but thats the only way I can really 27 describe it because theyre literally trying to de-fund Planned Parenthood.   28 
EJ: Yeah, so the context of Planned Parenthood is that theyre all different affiliates across the 29 nation.  So when I was working at Planned Parenthood I was working in Planned Parenthood of 30 Nebraska and Iowa.  So, a trans guy that came before me that worked at Planned Parenthood 31 got our affiliate to start doing hormones at our Planned Parenthood, which was amazing.  And 32 so thats why we also had a support group, was to help navigate guys through our Planned 33 Parenthood system, because its not always the easiest  call centers and different things like 34 that.  But, our affiliate was super supportive and the only way we could have done the hormone 35 treatment there, and therapies there, was with support of the national Planned Parenthood, 36 and national Planned Parenthood is supportive of trans health care and hormones and allowing 37 their affiliates to do hormones.  I would say trans people typically . . . yeah, if we dont have 38 insurance, we dont have access, so we have to go to the clinics that provide services on a sliding 1 fee or what have you . . .  2 
AJ: Free. 3 
EJ: Free, so things like the Red Door and Planned Parenthood are where we might only be able to 4 get any kind of health care.  So I think theyre in the forefront of that fight for health care access 5 for trans folks.  And its unfortunate the attacks that happen at Planned Parenthood  the 6 coordinated attacks and just the stigma against saying you work for Planned Parenthood.  There 7 would be people that worked for Planned Parenthood that dont tell their families that they 8 work for Planned Parenthood because of the stigma.  Its unfortunate because its not just trans 9 people that dont have access to health care or health insurance to get care. 10 
AJ: Its women, which is half the population. 11 
EJ: And men, right?  Its a lot of folks and thats their first stop and to de-fund that when we can, at 12 one time, expand health insurance, sort of  state-by-state, and then de-fund Planned 13 Parenthood, it just doesnt make sense.  Its clearly an attack on anybodys body that isnt a cis 14 gendered guy, right?  And lets be honest, its primarily an attack by white cis gendered men and 15 I think thats . . . to say that that is problematic is not grand enough.   16 
AJ: Yeah.  Do you think the trans community has enough awareness about this issue and is vocal 17 enough about advocating for Planned Parenthood, in your opinion? 18 
EJ: In my opinion, no  I dont think so.  I think there could be more mobilization around that.  And 19 its . . . in our community here it depends, right.  So our Planned Parenthood doesnt do 20 hormone services for trans folks but we have similar clinics like Family Tree who expanded that 21 service and does amazing work.   22 
AJ: But hormones arent the only thing that trans people need. 23 
EJ: No, but its usually going to get them in the door faster, right?  Because . . . one, I think that 24 signals that were competent, we can have the services  we have the political will or the 25 resources.  We have the will, in some way or another, to have these services, and then maybe Ill 26 let you look at my business because Ive been here doing whatever. 27 
AJ: Yeah. 28 
EJ: Because thats scary as a trans person. 29 
AJ: Yeah, it is.  Wow.  Well, this has been a great conversation, Ejay.  I just want to really just thank 30 you for your openness and honesty.  Is there anything that I didnt have the presence of mind to 31 ask that you think folks should know?   32 
EJ: The only thing, and I touched on it, I think, throughout the interview, is I think whats most 33 interesting . . . I appreciate you interviewing me and being able to participate and I think its 34 really exciting to think about this body of work in 50 years and 100 years and looking back at it.  35 What I also think about is, and what Ive touched upon, I think, a few times here and there, is 36 the intersection of gender and race and I think that right now in our time, is that there is a lot of 37 attention about trans individuals and about Black Lives Matter and sort of the intersection of 38 these movements and thinking about whats that going to look like and how are we working 1 together to look at the -isms and the injustices that occur on trans bodies and Black bodies, POC 2 bodies, and it will be interesting to sort of see these interviews in 50 or 100 years and whats 3 changed?  Hopefully a lot. 4 
AJ: Yeah, what do you think will have changed? 5 
EJ: Well, I have hopes that minorities now will not be a minority, that there is more of a level 6 playing field and more of an understanding of intersectionality and that we all have something 7 to provide and we all are unique and there doesnt need to be this huge gap of power and 8 resources and its not one group against another, but that its more communal, if you will.  And 9 we have a more communal society in however that might look or play out.  Thats my hope, and 10 theres just a greater understanding of your uniqueness doesnt have to invoke fear in me if I 11 could just be curious, right? 12 
AJ: Right.   13 
EJ: I dont know. 14 
AJ: Wow.  Thank you, Ejay.  And congratulations on your upcoming marriage. 15 
EJ: Thank you.   16 
AJ: All right.  Bye. 17 
EJ: Bye. 18 

