 
 
 
 
Enzi Tanner Narrator   Andrea Jenkins Interviewer 
    
The Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies University of Minnesota 
 December 12, 2015 
 
 
 

   
 
  
The Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story, while providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source material about the transgender community.  The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for current and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public. 
The Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300 individuals over the next three years.  Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and experiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality.  This project will be led by Andrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist.  Andrea brings years of experience working in government, non-profits and LGBT organizations.  If you are interested in being involved in this exciting project, please contact Andrea. 
Andrea Jenkins jenki120@umn.edu (612) 625-4379 
 
 
 
 
  
Andrea Jenkins  -AJ 1 
Enzi Tanner  -ET 2 
 3 
 4 
AJ: Hello.  My name is Andrea Jenkins and I am the oral historian for the Transgender Oral History 5 Project at the University of Minnesota, the Tretter Collection.  Im going to ask if you would 6 introduce yourself  state your name, your preferred gender pronouns, your gender identity, 7 and your gender assigned at birth. 8 
ET: My name is Enzi Tanner.  My preferred pronoun is he, him, and his.  My gender identity is male, 9 sometimes I identify as an intentional male and my gender assigned at birth was female.   10 
AJ: So whats an intentional male? 11 
ET: An intentional male, as opposed to saying male or trans male, is a person who is very conscious 12 and aware of what it means to be a man.  I think everyone could be an intentional male in some 13 way or another. 14 
AJ: Sure.  How does that manifest for you?  You said, Being aware of what it means to be a male. 15 
ET: So for me it manifests in many ways.  For example, I had a conversation with my big cousin this 16 week and he was just telling me how proud he is of the man that I am.  For me it means that I 17 try the best I can to be a role model for other guys, especially younger men.  They dont 18 necessarily know that Im trans identified, but I do everything I can to exemplify what 19 masculinity means and exemplify what masculinity doesnt mean and not try to be someone or 20 something that Im not based upon what society says I should or shouldnt be.   21 
AJ: Is that sort of related to . . . are there thoughts and ideas around feminism and sexism and 22 patriarchy and all of those kinds of things? 23 
ET: There are, but its not necessarily related to the concept of me identifying as an intentional 24 male.  Theyre there because, as the person I am, Im very conscious, as much as I can be, of 25 those ideas and of those concepts.  But another part of being an intentional male is being 26 mindful of what it means to be a Black man in this society where the whole entire . . . where it  27 sometimes seems as if it is afraid or threatened by me even though  often times the reverse 28 should be true based upon what we know and what Ive experienced personally.   29 
AJ: Right, yeah.  Wow, well thank you for sort of exploring that a little bit.  Ive not heard that 30 identification before and so I wanted to make sure we got a sense of what it means.  So Enzi, tell 31 me about your earliest memory  like whats the earliest thing you remember in life?  It doesnt 32 have to be related to your gender identity, although if it is thats fine.  But yeah. 33 
ET: Earliest thing I remember in life  thats a good question.  Some of my earliest memories . . . its 34 not necessarily my earliest memories, memories are kind of convoluted like that, theyre not 35 necessarily . . . because this is my earliest memory, it doesnt mean its chronological of the 36 earliest thing I can remember.  But I remember being a little kid outside of my house in Kansas 37 
City.  We had a fence and we had gardens and I just remember standing on the block outside of 1 the fence with my siblings walking up to the porch.  2 
AJ: With your siblings? 3 
ET: Yeah.  Thats it.  4 
AJ: Well thats interesting.  How many siblings? 5 
ET: I have . . . well, technically I have nine, including myself its 10, but as far as . . . it was eight of us 6 that grew up together. 7 
AJ: OK, big family. 8 
ET: Big family  yeah. 9 
AJ: And so you grew up in Kansas City. 10 
ET: Kansas City, Missouri.   11 
AJ: What was it like growing up there? 12 
ET: Kansas City is a very . . . Missouri itself is a very segregated state.  So growing up in Kansas City, 13 Missouri was very different, especially in the 1990s.  There was a lot of . . . especially due to the 14 introduction of crack cocaine in the communities, there was a lot of violence  a lot of violence.  15 I went to an all-Black school pre-school to 8th grade.  I think about that and I realize that Kansas 16 City was such a segregated area that in other parts of the country there would not have been 17 whole entire schools that were literally all-Black or not. 18 
AJ: Some parts of the country. 19 
ET: Yeah, definitely.  But it has its . . . its the Bible Belt, so its . . . its kind of hard to say it was 20 different because thats all I knew, so thats why this was different than other parts.  But I also 21 had a huge family.  Sunday dinner at my grandmas was maybe 30 or 40 people every Sunday, 22 Thanksgiving dinners were at least 80 or 90 people coming in and out.  It was a very . . . it was a 23 time of lots of community, lots of . . .  24 
AJ: Family love, huh? 25 
ET: Yeah. 26 
AJ: So you went to the same elementary school from preschool to 8th grade? 27 
ET: Yes. 28 
AJ: What was that experience like for you?  It was all-Black. 29 
ET: Yes. 30 
AJ: So Im assuming Black teachers too or . . . not? 31 
ET: For the most part Black teachers.  It was a Catholic school.  The school is now closed but I look 32 back at it with mostly fond memories. I still talk to my 7th grade teacher. 33 
AJ: Really? 1 
ET: She, in many ways, was a lifesaver for me.  But it was a Catholic school, sort of.  We had nuns for 2 teachers and we had Baptist preachers for teachers, and we had Pentecostals for teachers. 3 
AJ: Wow, thats interesting. 4 
ET: We had a teacher who spoke in tongues when she prayed, it was very different.  My 5 kindergarten teacher, I was the first person to graduate that she taught because I . . . I failed 6 preschool, whatever that means, which typically isnt a bad thing . . . 7 
AJ: What? 8 
ET: Unless you have a twin sister and then it makes a difference if youre not in the same grade.  But 9 I skipped . . .  10 
AJ: So you have a twin?   11 
ET: I have a twin  yeah. 12 
AJ: All right, weve got to get to that.  You failed preschool. 13 
ET: I got held back in preschool.  And part of it was . . . especially at that time, I didnt talk much and 14 so they thought something was wrong with me and so I got held back and then I ended up 15 skipping 6th grade.   16 
AJ: So you caught back up with your twin. 17 
ET: Yes.  And so the school was very small.  When I skipped 6th grade, literally I remember being 18 called to the principals office the first day of 6th grade and being told, Well last year at the end 19 of the school you ended up acing all of your final tests, do you want to stay in the 6th grade or do 20 you want to go to the 7th grade?  And it was . . . I dont know if there was conversations with 21 my parents, there might have been. 22 
AJ: Its kind of a no-brainer though, isnt it?  Its like, Ahhh, yeah.   23 
ET: At that point I was just like, Yeah.  And so it made sense.  I have siblings . . . not siblings, 24 cousins, who went to the same school years after I did and she told me that when her name got 25 called down the line, the teacher was like, Are you related to the Tanners? And she was like, 26 If youre talking about my cousins, then yes. So it was a good memory, I still talk to some of 27 the folks I went to grade school with.  28 
AJ: So no bullying or anything like that in school? 29 
ET: Well, I was bullied. 30 
AJ: OK.   31 
ET: I was bullied. I was skinny.  I weighed . . . well, Ill put it like this, when I went to college I 32 weighed 111 pounds.  And so in grade school I was really skinny.  I was skinny, I was one of the 33 darkest people in my class so I was teased for being extremely dark, skinny, but I also fought a 34 lot.  So, at some points when I was getting bullied I would just fight back.  And its hard to know, 1 people bully people  kids are mean, people are mean.   2 
AJ: People are mean  yes.   3 
ET: And so the bullying that occurred, I never knew . . .  4 
AJ: What the exact source was? 5 
ET: Yeah.  A lot of it was how small I was, but a lot of bullying didnt occur for long.  Like I said, I have 6 a huge family so people werent that . . . people werent stupid enough . . .  7 
AJ: They werent persistent with it. 8 
ET: Yeah, no.   9 
AJ: Any teasing, bullying around your gender expression or your gender identity at all?  Or was that 10 not really present at that time? 11 
ET: Its complicated, because at that time most people just identified me as a tomboy.  And back 12 then it was not a bad thing for girls to act boyish.  In fact, at that point in the 1990s, it was, in 13 many ways, safer.  Everyone had a thug mentality in a sense.  I dont know how to describe it.   14 
AJ: Did you say in the mid-1990s? 15 
ET: Yup.  It just seemed more like . . . thats just who I was.  It seemed like people said that I walked 16 with a limp or whatever and I didnt do it intentionally, thats just who I was, its just the way I 17 expressed myself. 18 
AJ: So you were crypt walking in 8th grade?  No, Im kidding.   19 
ET: That was the thing.  I was just being myself so I never got teased for that.  I do remember . . . like 20 I said, it was a Catholic school and it was very religious.  I do remember teachers talking really 21 negatively about homosexuality and how it would get people in hell and stuff.  So that part I do 22 remember and that did have an impact on me. 23 
AJ: How did that affect you? 24 
ET: In a lot of ways.  I think early on it added to my thoughts of suicide and my suicide . . . that 25 aspect of my life, I think it definitely had an impact on that.  It also made me second guess a lot 26 of things about myself and just made me feel like I was a bad person and that there was nothing 27 . . . I spent a lot of time in my life trying to pray away the gay and that, of course, for me didnt 28 work.  And then in high school I spent a lot of time doing that as well.   29 
AJ: Wow.  So, what was family life like at home?  You told me about these big huge family dinners 30 and all the siblings and holidays and all of those things.  But, were both of your parents in the 31 household?   32 
ET: No, I was raised by my dad and my stepmom.  My mom left when I was two and so I didnt . . . I 33 wasnt raised by my mom and that made things a little complicated for lots of obvious reasons.  34 Family life wasnt the easiest, school was definitely a refuge.  One of the things that one of my 35 cousins said to me within the last three or four years ago, she said, I had no idea what you all 36 experienced at home.  Everyone . . . well, maybe not everyone, but a lot of peoples family has 1 the uncle who everyone is afraid of  the uncle who yells and is mean, etc., and that was my 2 dad.  And so my cousins who, we lived together at one point or another, they knew what was 3 going on in the home but other folks didnt necessarily know.  For example, when I would get 4 into fights at school, I vividly remember teachers arguing with each other saying, Were not 5 going to call the parents, were not going to call their dad because thats not safe.   6 
AJ: Wow. 7 
ET: So they knew what was going on and its hard as a social worker to know . . . I mean, granted it 8 was 21, 22, 23 years ago and so the concept of child safety in CPS was very different and the 9 reality that it would not have made things . . . it would have just made things worse.  But just 10 remembering home was not a safe place, it wasnt safe at all.   11 
AJ: Sure, wow. 12 
ET: As far as gender is concerned, my stepmom used to try to make me wear as many female 13 clothes as possible and I hated it, but I did it anyhow because I had no choice  I didnt buy my 14 own clothes, I didnt do that stuff. 15 
AJ: You didnt have a job when you were 12 years old? 16 
ET: I started working at 14, actually. 17 
AJ: Is that right?  What was the job? 18 
ET: I worked at Wendys.  Somewhere on my birth certificate it says that Im older than I am, but I 19 worked at 14 and all the money went to the house to help pay rent and to . . . I went to a 20 Catholic school so some of it went toward school.  Yeah. 21 
AJ: So its interesting, you went to a Catholic school and I know that you identify very closely now, 22 or have accepted the Jewish faith.  How did that transition happen?  Were you born in a Jewish 23 family? 24 
ET: I was not born in a Jewish family  I chose Judaism.   25 
AJ:  I assume not because you went to a Catholic school  your Jewish parents probably wouldnt 26 have sent you to a Catholic school, but Ive got to ask. 27 
ET: No, no  thats OK.  I chose Judaism  and actually, in a lot of ways my gender transition and my 28 choosing Judaism were very much connected.   29 
AJ: Oh wow, thats fascinating. 30 
ET: There are some things that we say are set, we think about gender  youre born female, you 31 cant become male, black and white.  Not always in religion, but with Judaism, in particular, we 32 look at it as either youre born Jewish or youre not, black and white.  As I realized that when I 33 started to transition, and I think were always, everyone is always in a place of transitioning and 34 so I dont use the term transition in a past tense sense, but when I started my journey into 35 becoming myself, I started to realize that the things that I thought was set in stone, black and 36 white, was not so.  It didnt have to be so stagnant.  And so I was able to explore those parts of 37 myself that I always looked at and that always intrigued me  Judaism just was one of those 1 things that presented itself to me in a way where I was like, This is who I am.  It took a process 2 and a journey, its not like . . . converting to Judaism is not like converting to Christianity where 3 you just say a prayer and boom its done.  Its a long process of studying and lots of other things.  4 So yeah, I was not born in a Jewish family.  I wouldnt say I wasnt always Jewish because I think I 5 definitely always had a Jewish soul. 6 
AJ: And whats a Jewish soul? 7 
ET: Whats a Jewish soul?  I think . . . I could go into long, long details about this but for me I say that 8 we all . . . for example, if I relate it to gender identity, some folks say, I knew that I was a boy 9 since I was a little kid, so its like your earliest memory.  I dont, I dont  thats not my story.  10 But I can say that I was always myself so I was always Enzi, I just didnt necessarily reflect that in 11 my life.  And so, for me, when I say, I feel like I always had a Jewish soul, is that I always . . . 12 those values that I hold true to my Jewishness were always there with me.  Even as a kid, the 13 things that drew me to the Black church wasnt Jesus, it was the Negro spirituals, it was, Didnt 14 God deliver Daniel, and Pharaoh, let my people go. So it was those songs that were so . . . 15 that connected the Black church with the Jewish faith that I was so drawn to.   16 
AJ: So you said that wasnt . . . recognizing that you were a boy at an early age wasnt your story.  17 When did you first recognize that you were not the gender you were assigned at birth? 18 
ET: Yeah, so I was . . . let me see, I was maybe 21 or 22.  I was older. Granted, also I didnt know any 19 trans people, I didnt know the term transgender.  I do remember when I came . . . I remember 20 meeting with a therapist and they wrote down gender identity disorder and I was pissed when I 21 saw that.  I was like, I do not have a gender identity disorder.  And so even at that point I 22 didnt recognize myself as being a boy.  So I mainly recognized myself as not identifying as the 23 gender I was assigned at birth, but it was a non-thought, it was, Im just me, and less of 24 something is wrong. I never thought anything was wrong with my gender identity, per se  it just 25 was me. I didnt fit in with the other girls but I just thought that was normal for me.  And so I 26 was older.  I was out of college.   27 
AJ: Wow, that is definitely . . . I know that some people dont come out until after college but in 28 many ways they have a sense that they are having sort of these feelings.  Let me ask you this 29 question, and this is not necessarily one of my sort of standard questions, but listening to you 30 makes me think about this concept and Ive thought about it for a long time - that trans men 31 sort of come out of a feminist, more academic, more radical concern for space when they 32 transition into malehood or begin that journey into malehood.  And from some of my 33 observations, male to female, or trans women, seem to have less of that sort of activist, 34 feminist, politicized sort of veneer on their identities.  What do you think about that statement?  35 Is it true or is there some truth to it? 36 
ET: I think there could be some truth to it.  When I was listening to that I was thinking about, Huh?  37 And I wonder how many of that is white trans men come out of that activist space, right? 38 
AJ: Sure. 39 
ET: And there is that privilege of . . . so much involved in that.  And when I think of at least trans 1 women of color, that sense of one, just being yourself, but also the reality of Black women and 2 women of color, in general, need to survive in a very different way.  So thats some of the 3 thoughts that I was thinking is that reality . . . what does that mean?  The other piece of it is, the 4 other side of it, depending on how folks come out.  So if some trans men are coming out as trans 5 men from a space of lesbian identities, at least the way society shows it, sometimes lesbians are 6 more involved in activism than some gay men are.  And thats if folks are coming out as gay into 7 trans women and lesbian into trans men  thats not always the case.  8 
AJ: No, thats absolutely not the case.  9 
ET: But that is one piece of it.  The other piece of it is . . . it depends, but a lot of it does boil down to 10 race, class, education and how we are aware of even if trans women of color have those 11 aspects, and trans men  the sense of, for trans women, the sense of . . . and particularly those 12 of color, the sense of other in a way of less than in many ways, especially when we look at 13 economics and other things, and the sense of trans men, particularly Black trans men and 14 invisibility.  There are often times when I am in the space of trans folks, I am invisible because 15 the assumption is that I am not a trans guy.  To me, I have tiny hands and all these things, but 16 because, in some ways, Black men exude masculinity there is the assumption that exists with 17 that.   18 
AJ: Is that important for you to be recognized as a trans man more so than just as a Black man? 19 
ET: Not necessarily.  Its so hard when I fill out paperwork because I never put trans unless its going 20 to help out the statistics.  I often say . . . folks when they see me and they ask me to fill out, Im 21 like, Is it going to help out the statistics to know Im a trans man?  But thats not important.  It 22 does become hard and complicated when youre dating.  I identify as a gay man but when Im 23 dating I have to also be mindful of that other aspect of, OK, are you going to be into a trans 24 man?  Is this gay boy going to like this other gay boy who happens to have a vagina?   That 25 reality of it.  And the other piece of it is, its just more complicated  its that sense of how do I 26 navigate this world as a Black man?  I dont need for folks to know that Im trans but I wasnt 27 raised on having to navigate the cops in the same way that Im having to navigate the cops now. 28 
AJ: Sure, yeah. 29 
ET: And so that whole history of 24 years that my cousins and brothers was raised on and knew how 30 to navigate, I had to figure out . . . 31 
AJ: Or at least knew that navigation was necessary.  Im not quite sure that Black men have figured 32 out how to navigate this whole system yet.   33 
ET: Yeah.  And so thats a piece of it thats hard.  My cousins . . . I think thats what is great when my 34 cousin tells me how proud he is of me because hes acknowledging that Im navigating the 35 system without having that history and hes also acknowledging that not only Im learning how 36 to navigate the system, he thinks Im doing a damn good job of it  which is huge.  But thats the 37 part that I think is hard, is not knowing . . . either not knowing how to navigate it or not having 38 the histories of being like, OK, this is just  whatever. 39 
AJ: Wow, thats fascinating.  Thank you.  Its really hard to just connect race and gender, particularly 1 for people of color.  I think that many white people dont necessarily consider race in their 2 gender journey because its just not really relevant.  But people of color tend to have to.  So, 3 what terms do you use to describe yourself  and youve just said, I identify as a gay male, an 4 intentional male.  How have those terms changed over time for you?  For 22 years, you did not 5 identify as an intentional male, how did you identify yourself at that time?  Were you queer?  6 Were you lesbian?  Were you . . .? 7 
ET: I guess I identified as a lesbian at one time, I dated girls. 8 
AJ: OK. 9 
ET: I identified as a lesbian at one point.  In fact I spent a lot of years doing ex-gay . . . a program 10 with Exodus International.   11 
AJ: Really?   12 
ET: Yeah. 13 
AJ: By choice or . . .? 14 
ET: By choice.  At that point I wanted to do whatever I could to please God, whatever that meant. 15 
AJ: So your identify, your sexuality was really a painful struggle for you. 16 
ET: Yeah, yeah.  The struggle was never . . . thats the thing for me, and part of it was probably that 17 ex-gay stuff, the struggle was never gender identity, the struggle was sexual orientation.  I 18 mean, folks who may or may not have ever experienced ex-gay things, I used to joke around 19 about calling it HA meetings, Homosexual Anonymous.  But we would go into this church, like in 20 the back door . . .  21 
AJ: Hi, my name is Billy, I am a homosexual. 22 
ET: Well, not a homosexual, my place in the struggle was in same-sex attractions. 23 
AJ: OK, OK. 24 
ET: I can kind of smile about it but its still a very painful thing to think about actually.  But I spent a 25 lot of time, a lot of time, praying and trying to just not be myself.  I remember when I finally left, 26 I said, I cant do this.  I have two options to do this and die or I should just not do this 27 anymore.  And so I chose to live because it was not helpful.  I suppose a lot of that training and 28 reparative therapy-type stuff was really . . . a lot of it did focus on gender in some ways, in ways 29 that I would . . . when I look back at it Im like, Oh, theyre trying to . . .  Because for some 30 folks, separating out gender identity expression from sexual orientation is impossible.  Their 31 brain is so small that they cant do that.  And so if youre masculine as a female, then you must 32 be gay.  And if youre feminine . . . so the ability to separate those out was hard and I think thats 33 one of the reasons why that maybe existed.  But yeah.  I guess as far as the direct question you 34 asked, my life is always a journey.  I joke around and Im mostly serious when I say it, but Ive 35 lived a lot of lives and I just let them come.  I feel like were always becoming more of ourselves. 36 
AJ: Yeah, absolutely  no question about it.  What challenges have you faced since you began 1 expressing your true gender identity?  And again, I know you sort of talked about the realities of 2 being a Black man in America and some of the challenges that are inherent with that, but speak 3 a little bit more about that. 4 
ET: The biggest challenge is related to being a Black man.  I remember one time when I was in front 5 of my house, farther south  over in south Minneapolis, I was waiting for a friend to pick me up 6 for work and I remember the cops swooping in and asking me to . . . you know, they needed to 7 see my ID.  I already knew to keep my hands out of my pocket. 8 
AJ: Sure. 9 
ET: And making sure my hands were visible and theyre asking for my ID.  I need to get my ID so 10 you can see it.   11 
AJ: Right. 12 
ET: And their reasoning was someone said that there was a person driving around the 13 neighborhood with a suspicious car and I was like, But Im standing in front of my house, there 14 is no car and you dont see a car parked here and its not illegal to drive around in your car. 15 
AJ: Exactly  and what makes a car suspicious?  How does a car animated to be suspicious? 16 
ET: I couldnt figure that . . . I actually realized that, I think thats something thats sad because 17 someone else told me the same similar story, but I remember when I realized that I was 18 passing and I hate that term.  I would say for obvious reasons, but its not obvious for 19 everyone.  But the concept of passing while Black is a very different concept because passing 20 while Black, and Ive done lots of workshops and trainings entitled, Passing While Black:  When 21 Little Black Girls Grow up to be Black Men, but the reality that our ancestors, when people said 22 they were passing  one, they were trying to survive but that sense of lying as a white person, 23 to blend.  But the moment I knew that other folks saw me as a Black man was when I was 24 downtown Minneapolis waiting for a bus, it started pouring down rain and I had an umbrella.  I 25 didnt need the umbrella so I went to go hand it to a couple that was behind me, because they 26 had kids, and they got terrified.  I realized that when people see me as a Black man they see fear 27  or I see fear in their eyes and theyre terrified.  Thats some of the things that Im mindful of.  28 An example earlier this week, it was nice . . . its been nice this week. 29 
AJ: It has, its been beautiful. 30 
ET: Especially for December and I was going to walk around Powderhorn Lake, because I live right in 31 the park.  It was foggy, it was nice, and then I saw police cars and sirens and I got terrified and 32 just went back home.  I realized that at a different time, granted theres a lot of stuff going on in 33 our society, but at a different time I would not have realized . . . I would not have been mindful 34 of that, I would have just kept walking around. 35 
AJ: Theres the cops, oh well. 36 
ET: Yeah.  And this time I was like, Its dark outside, Im a Black man, Im not safe.  And I just went 37 back home, I cut my walk short.  So those are the things Im mindful of, that is the biggest 38 struggle that I face.  39 
AJ: Wow, thats deep.  You mentioned dating.  Has your trans identity created challenges around 1 dating? 2 
ET: Yeah. 3 
AJ: I actually have another question here about love and relationships, but . . .? 4 
ET: It has, its complicated.  I dont want to go out because Im an introvert but if I went out, at a gay 5 club or whatever, Im a gay man but, especially when it comes down to the sex pieces, what do 6 you say beforehand?  And how will folks respond to the fact that Im a gay man with a vagina, 7 that reality?  I havent dated a lot.  I just havent because . . . well one, Im shy and I dont know 8 how to meet people.  But, its complicated.  I havent figured it out.  Granted, multiple people 9 dont figure out this whole dating thing  its impossible, I think. 10 
AJ: You mean just most people generally in life? 11 
ET: Generally, I think life is . . .  12 
AJ: Yeah, its a tough thing man.   13 
ET: Yeah. 14 
AJ: Relationships and love . . . do you use any sort of online type apps?  Tinder or . . .?   15 
ET: Not Tinder.  I have two apps that Im using right now.  Its Growler and Scruff.  Theyre an app 16 for gay men.  I actually experimented  one of the apps I put down that I was trans and the 17 other app I put down that I wasnt trans.  Not that I wasnt trans but I didnt disclose to see the 18 difference in responses.  I eventually changed it back to say that I was trans but I got more 19 responses on the other app that said I wasnt trans because . . . also the reality of these apps, 20 folks discriminate against trans folks, they dont want to date trans folks.  We also know that 21 among gay, particularly gay male apps and gay male online stuff, there is this reality of this piece 22 of no Black men, white men only and that type of silliness.  And I say silliness because its racism 23 and theyre like, Oh, no racism . . . Im just not into Black men.  Really?  So thats the . . .  24 
AJ: I do believe people can have their preference. 25 
ET: They can have their preferences, yeah. 26 
AJ: I like wheat bread over white bread, is that an issue?  I like broccoli as opposed to cauliflower.  I 27 do understand, however, that making that statement, My preference is to date white men, or 28 sometimes even as a white person to say, My preference is to only date Black men.  There are 29 some inherent fetishism and . . .  30 
ET: Yeah, the issue isnt . . .  31 
AJ: And potential racism in that statement too. 32 
ET: Yeah.  Because people have their preferences.  A preference is 55  I prefer to date people this 33 height, I prefer to date . . . you dont have to say, I dont want to date Black men, because one, 34 theres going to be pictures.  You can just be like, Im just not into you, you dont have to say 35 why.  But when you say why and its about race . . .  36 
AJ: Yeah, agree. 1 
ET: Because theres all different shades of . . .  2 
AJ: Oh man, what have been some of the more positive aspects of expressing what has now 3 become your true gender identity? 4 
ET: I mean I get to . . .  5 
AJ: Or maybe I should say your current gender identity because youve stated this is a journey. 6 
ET: Yes, life is a journey. 7 
AJ: It totally is. 8 
ET: Yeah, I get to mentor young boys in lots of ways.  Sometimes Im not out  granted, if someone 9 Googles my name theyre going to know Im trans, thats a reality for me.  But Im teaching sex 10 ed at the synagogue now and its kind of cool.  Most of the guys have no idea that Im trans and I 11 get to just kind of answer these questions, or try as best as I can.  Sometimes I dont know the 12 answers but I get to mentor and be an example for folks and that is one of the biggest things.  13 My nephews look up to me as an uncle, they just love me to death.  So just being able to be this 14 positive Black role model, in particular, I think is one of the biggest things that I love  its fun.  15 And I get to challenge folks.  When people say stupid sexist things, I get to challenge them and I 16 get to kind of have a lot of folks taken aback by their perceptions and concepts of the way they 17 perceive men  particularly with children, because Im around children all the time, I love kids.  I 18 had one person say, You know, the way you treat my kids and the way you interact with them 19 has made me question my thoughts on the way in which guys interact with kids as a whole. 20 
AJ: Wow. 21 
ET: And thats been amazing. 22 
AJ: Wow.  I kind of have a follow-up question to that, but Im curious as to how have you, or have 23 you, experienced male privilege in your transition? 24 
ET: I think that its impossible to not experience male privilege.  I talk about this a lot, and its 25 complicated right.  Its complicated because the reality is when white women transition to being 26 white men, there is a sense of privilege, and when Black women transition to being Black men, 27 there is this sense of privilege as well as connected with all these other pieces of fear  but 28 theres still that privilege there.  I am aware that if I go into somewhere, particularly when Im 29 perceived as a man, Im treated a little differently.  Im able to navigate this male culture, per se, 30 in a way that other folks may not experience it.  Im trying to think through some different 31 examples, but even with kids, with youth, Im able to navigate things a little differently or able to 32 be safer when it comes to cat calling and when it comes to harassment or street harassment 33 than other folks.  So yeah, its one of those hard things to answer because the world in which I 34 live in is a little different. 35 
AJ: But the reality is, the transition has engendered some male privilege, albeit Black male privilege 36 versus white male privilege  which is, I think, two different things clearly.   37 
ET: Its two totally different things, but the reason Im saying its complicated is because of the fields 1 in which I work in and live in, right?  So Im aware that I work in a female-dominated field and so 2 . . . 3 
AJ: What work do you do? 4 
ET: Im a social worker.  In fact, this is the first job Ive ever had where there is another Black man 5 that was in the same role that I was in, so that is different for me.  I work in a field that is highly 6 dominated by women. 7 
AJ: And particularly, white women. 8 
ET: White women  lets be real.  So its that sense . . . so I cant say that I get promotions . . . one, I 9 havent gotten any promotions . . . I forgot what I was going to say.  But I cant say that Ive 10 gotten promotions based upon my male privilege.  So Im aware of that when Im in society, 11 when I go to get my car fixed, when I go to the store, when I try to buy . . . when I bargain and 12 those types of things, those are where I see areas of privilege, as well as the fact that regardless 13 we live in a society that values male lives, albeit how complicated, over female lives and the 14 bodies of maleness over bodies of women.  We can add all the complicated pieces in there, but 15 the reality is Im still a man who gets male privilege and I have to do what I can do with it and 16 kind of challenge peoples notions of masculinity in order to change things, I suppose.   17 
AJ: Thats awesome.  You bring up this issue that rings true to me but that male bodies are more 18 valued in our culture and society than female bodies.  And so, to the extent that you are 19 comfortable discussing, maybe theres no extent  I dont know, but what medical interventions 20 have you undergone to date and do you have plans to do more? 21 
ET: So Ive had a double mastectomy, top surgery, which . . . for me, I was a DD and so Im able to be 22 much more myself.  I take testosterone.  I do this thing because . . . 23 
AJ: The air quotes . . .  24 
ET: I sometimes dont take . . . I dont always like needles so sometimes I forget to take my shot, 25 sometimes a couple of months go by.  Ive thought about bottom surgery, the reality is I enjoy . . 26 . Im going to be real, I enjoy vagina sex and so just looking through what there is and the reality 27 is there is not . . . theyre changing and theyre growing but there isnt necessarily enough 28 information on female to male bottom surgery. 29 
AJ: Which is what my original question was trying to hit on is that the medical procedures havent 30 been really studied and/or perfected to the extent that most female to male persons are really 31 happy with the surgery, at least thats the stories that I hear about. 32 
ET: And I think thats true, I think its a part of that privilege, and in this case its the male privilege 33 based on gender assigned at birth. 34 
AJ: Birth, right. 35 
ET: Because for whatever reasons, we know most of these reasons, but those dont exist in the 36 same ways.  Also, I dont know if . . . before I was like, Im not having bottom surgery, thats not 37 what Im thinking about, but who knows.  Who knows?  Life is a journey and Ive still got time, I 1 suppose. 2 
AJ: Yeah, you might hit the lotto. 3 
ET: Its not about the money for me, well see.   4 
AJ: OK.  Whats your current relationship like with your birth family and have you created a 5 supportive chosen family?  And just to add on to that question, how important is family and 6 supportive relationships in this context of gender journey? 7 
ET: For me family is the most important thing.  Im in the process of purchasing a house and when I 8 started looking I knew that I was not going to look at a two bed, one bathroom house.  Some 9 people buy a house for a few years to sell, thats not me.  I buy a house to live in.  When I 10 started to look for a house, I wanted to find a house that my family could stay in when they 11 come visit as well as that I could potentially have foster kids and raise kids or adopt  potentially 12 have my own family, right. 13 
AJ: So you want to create your own family. 14 
ET: I want to create my own family, yeah.  Thats important.  But also my birth family is extremely 15 important.  I love my family to death, even when we have our complicated realities.  I talk with 16 my family all time, all of my . . . well, not all of my nephews, most of my nephews now are 17 starting to know that Im trans.  Most of them the reaction is, Whatever, I dont know what 18 youre talking about.  And Im not the one that tells them, I let my siblings do that because 19 thats their kids and its not my place to do that.  But that reality is my family is ultimately the 20 most important thing to me  my blood family is very important.  I have had this amazing ability 21 to create chosen family that is amazing that I would do anything for and it is important for me 22 because I am hundreds of miles from home, that Im able to be around other folks and do these 23 same rituals of chosen family harvest feast and dinners and movies and this types of stuff, to be 24 able to be comfortable and to be able to be a part of my friends kids lives and those are 25 important to me.  My friends kids call me uncle sometimes and thats important to me.  To me, 26 family is ultimately the thing that helps any of us to continue to go on and family is a very broad 27 term. 28 
AJ: Is your religious community a part of that chosen family? 29 
ET: Yeah, most of my chosen family is a part of my religious community. They might not go to my 30 synagogue per se, but my chosen family we do Shabbat dinners together, we do holidays 31 together.  We do all these things together intentionally, and thats the joy of it  especially the 32 ones that are closer to my age, that we get to create these traditions and rituals together, which 33 is important. 34 
AJ: I really believe that family is an integral aspect of peoples . . . I hate to use the word success in 35 transition because its not about that, but . . . yeah, for lack of a better word, success.  So, 36 looking back over your decision to express your current gender identity, what were pivotal 37 moments that defined your life and would you have done anything differently?   38 
ET: No, I dont think I would have done anything differently.  I dont think of many pivotal moments, 1 I think of . . . when I had top surgery, that was huge, and partially because I was able to . . . huge 2 for a lot of reasons.  I automatically lost 15 pounds because I was so huge.   3 
AJ: Oh the mastectomy. 4 
ET: Yeah, that automatically lost a lot of pounds. 5 
AJ: Wow. 6 
ET: But I cant think of any pivotal moments.  I think of times where . . . after that I was way more 7 comfortable in my body and . . .  8 
AJ: Did that feel like a point of no return though when you did the top surgery? 9 
ET: No, no it didnt.  Theres never a point of no return and I suppose I could ask the question, 10 Returning to what?  I think were all on this journey and we all experience different kinds of 11 genders in different kinds of bodies.  For me for there to have been a point of return or a point 12 of no return, then I would have to say there is a certain type of body that reflects maleness and 13 that reflects womenness and I dont necessarily know if thats true.  I think that when people say 14 . . . lets talk about Caitlyn Jenner who said, If you look like a man in a dress, then people will be 15 uncomfortable.  Thats one, Im sorry to say that.  But two, I dont care what society says a man 16 or a woman should look like, if you say youre a woman then you look like a woman  its that 17 simple.  Granted most people dont think of it that way.  So, for me  one, we know that there 18 are women who have no breasts because of cancer or whatever reasons. 19 
AJ: Biological. 20 
ET: Thats what I mean.  And so for me, I never even thought about that as a point of no return, I 21 just was like, OK, Im more comfortable in my body.   22 
AJ: Sure. 23 
ET: And whether that means . . . whatever that means, its not going to dictate my journey moving 24 forward, it just means I dont have breasts. 25 
AJ: Have there been an organizations that you have been involved in or specific people that have 26 had a significant impact on your gender identity?  I think we first met when you were involved 27 with District 202?  Is that . . .? 28 
ET: No, I was never actually involved in District 202  maybe Tyson.   29 
AJ: Tyson - which grew out of District 202  thats maybe what is coming to my mind, I guess. 30 
ET: Let me see.  I think the Brown Boi Project definitely has had a . . . and partially . . .  31 
AJ: OK, and thats out of Oakland, California, right? 32 
ET: Yes. 33 
AJ: But its a national . . . 34 
ET: National, yes.  But part of it, partially for me, is the ability to challenge and look at the way in 1 which we look at masculinity and to challenge . . . how we see masculinity, to me, is really 2 important and my experience with the Brown Boi Project, my ongoing experience with the 3 Brown Boi Project has impacted my ability to kind of be more mindful as well as to the best, and 4 to the extent that I can, to advocate for a transformation of masculinity and a transformation of 5 . . . and in some ways centering the stories and the lives of women and femininity in a way that 6 we havent done that as a society that I think we definitely need to work on much better and do 7 that, and not just talk about but do it. 8 
AJ: Yeah, thats a great organization.  It helps to create this sort of national network of what, I think, 9 they call masculine of center individuals and brown male-identified bodies.   10 
ET: Yeah. 11 
AJ: Its a beautiful network, I know a lot of people who have been involved in that organization and 12 they all are really, really cool.  What has been your experience with some of the institutions and 13 our culture in society, like the medical industry and the criminal justice system? 14 
ET: Yeah, its been a challenge.  Right now Im dealing with an insurance issue.  I had a . . .  15 
AJ: Related to your gender expression? 16 
ET: Yes.  Im legally male, all my paperwork says Im male but I had a procedure done that is a 17 female-body procedure.  Im not sure . . . 18 
AJ: So they freaked out. 19 
ET: Well they denied it and I went back and then Im not sure how they . . . I think my clinic didnt 20 label it right and so the insurance denied it, like, This person cant have this procedure.  And 21 the insurance went back and said, You miscoded this.  So instead of the clinic going back and 22 saying, No, this person is trans, they just sent me a bill for $1,000.  I said, Im not paying this 23 bill, I had insurance.  So this has been over a year now of me going back and forth with them.   24 
AJ: So your doctor, the clinic could have just recoded it and . . . 25 
ET: They should have just recoded it and so this is me going back and forth, back and forth.  And its 26 not necessarily my clinic, because this was the lab, so the clinics piece of it got taken care of but 27 the lab . . . and so now the insurance is like, No, you billed this to me too late, were not 28 covering it, and the patient is not responsible for it.  And yet the clinic is still trying to bill me 29 and Im like, You know, Im not doing it.  So thats one way.  Another was is . . . 30 
AJ: Yeah, thats complicated, but tough. 31 
ET: Yeah, its stressful, its frustrating, its . . . I mean the medical system is messed up in general, 32 and thats the problem.  And also when you look at the prison system and the legal system, right 33 when I started . . . when I still had breasts actually, I got arrested  I was doing activism, and I 34 remember cops looking at me and trying to figure out . . . I was doing civil disobedience and they 35 were like, Where do we put this person?  We dont know.  So when I look at that place, they 36 were just so confused  literally, until they took my ID and saw that I was legally female at the 37 time.  I just remember that reality of like . . . and the reality of my inability right now to do civil 1 disobedience in a way that I was able to at that point because . . . 2 
AJ: Because you want to avoid being . . .  3 
ET: In jail, yeah.  Its not simple anymore.   4 
AJ: Yeah.  Boy, its really kind of tough.  Thank you for sharing that.  When is the first time you ever 5 met a trans or gender non-confirming person? 6 
ET: When was the first time I met a trans person?  Consciously, maybe 22 or 23.  I dont remember 7 the first time.  Actually yeah, now that I remember, I was in . . . right out of college I went to an 8 event called Evangelicals Concerned, it was a group of Christian gays and I was at a meeting at a 9 camp conference of Christian gays and there were some trans folks there.  I dont remember 10 much about that, my memory is really bad. 11 
AJ: I remember we read poetry together once, was that a part of the Tyson experience?   12 
ET: Wait, when I first moved to Minnesota I was doing a lot more poetry than what I am now.  I 13 think Im starting back again to do poetry. 14 
AJ: I feel like you were sort of . . . I would say more gender queer at that time, if I had to try to label 15 it.   16 
ET: Yeah, when I first came out I identified more as gender queer.  But yeah, thats been 10 or 15 17 years, time is so weird.  I look back and . . .  18 
AJ: You said youve been here for 10 years?   19 
ET: Yes. 20 
AJ: Well I hope you get back to the poetry, you write beautifully.   21 
ET: Thank you. 22 
AJ: What was it like coming out to your family and friends?   23 
ET: When I came out as trans . . . I dont know, I think it was funny.  I say funny because my folks 24 were like, OK.  My twin took it a little hard for a while and then she eventually was like, OK, 25 this isnt about me.  It was a journey. 26 
AJ: Are you guys identical twins?   27 
ET: No, were not identical.   28 
AJ: OK.  Well you certainly arent now.   29 
ET: I look more like her now than I did then.   30 
AJ: Is that right?  Funny. 31 
ET: Yeah.  I think part of it was Id already come out as a lesbian and then I came out as trans.  For 32 me, Im different.  What I did was I allow my family . . . I said, You know, it took me 23 or 24 33 years to say this is who I am, so Im going to give you that much time to navigate this.  Its 1 stupid for me to say, Oh . . . 2 
AJ: You didnt demand instantly start calling me the right pronouns or else Im going to leave the 3 family. 4 
ET: No, that would have been ridiculous for me.  For me, it was a challenge.  The thing that helped 5 the most was kids.  I have lots of nephews and particularly one of my sisters . . .  6 
AJ: No nieces, youre not speaking about the nieces, only nephews in your family. 7 
ET: My oldest niece passed away in 2011. 8 
AJ: Oh, oh, Im sorry to hear that. 9 
ET: No, no  I do have a niece still, but thats why I think I kind of navigate from saying nieces.  10 Thats the hard piece, is I typically say nephews and nieces but then I get really sad because its 11 not nieces, its niece. 12 
AJ: Oh, Im sorry.  It was noticeable that you only referred to nephews. 13 
ET: Yeah, yeah.  My current niece lives in Iran so . . . so yeah, my nephews.  And some of this is 14 related to my nephews, and my one niece, but my sister, I was like, You dont have to call me 15 he and him, you dont have to call me Enzi, but your kids are kind of young and so you have a 16 choice, you can introduce me as Uncle Enzi or their aunt.  If you introduce me as their aunt, 17 theyre going to be confused and theyre going to have to out themselves all the time to their 18 friends because theyre going to be like, My aunt Enzi looks like he should be my uncle.  And 19 so since then she called me Uncle Enzi, thats just how they . . .  20 
AJ: Thats a great way to approach it.   21 
ET: And I told them, Its your choice.  So yeah, they took it pretty well.  I think they had a harder 22 time when I said, Im Jewish, than trans. 23 
AJ: Yeah, after the whole Catholic school experience, I guess.  What do you think the relationship is 24 between the L, the G, the B, and the T? 25 
ET: Yeah, thats a good question.  I think . . . and I often talk about there is a relationship and there 26 isnt a relationship, right?  I think there is a community and the reality is gender identity, gender 27 expression, and sexual orientation are two separate things.  So as a gay trans person, sometimes 28 when we talk about the LGBT it makes me feel as if . . . just like when we talk about the Black 29 community and the gay community  like, Wait, Im Black and Im gay, what does that mean for 30 me?  So as a queer or trans person, it makes it kind of convoluted, it makes it kind of like, OK, 31 how are we looking at the intersections of these realities.  And I think sometimes its really 32 mindful and very intersectional . . . I think some communities have it, I think some communities 33 have some really amazing realities and connectedness between the communities, the LGBT.  34 And then there are some areas where we talk about patriarchal white gay male, like how we 35 look at those as very separate  sometimes its very much about class and now that we have 36 federal marriage laws its not as stark of a reality that we saw before where there were some 37 communities, queer LGBT communities, especially of color  like we need health care, we need 38 this, we need to survive.  And then other communities are like, This is what we need.  And so, 1 Im not sure if its necessarily divided on LGBT as much, I think it is.  We know that there are 2 different levels of, you know  women get treated some ways and trans folks get treated some 3 ways, and then other times its about people are unselfish and when those LGBTs are divided as 4 much, sometimes it can just boil down to selfishness.   5 
AJ: Do you think there is an agenda for the trans community?  Or that there should be an agenda 6 and, if so, what is it  in your mind? 7 
ET: I dont think that there is an agenda or that there should be an agenda.  And I say that because I 8 think the trans community, more than any other community, actually reflects every single 9 aspect of society.  There is no other community that can do that.  You have multiple genders, 10 you have multiple all every gender, you have every and all sexual orientations, races, religions.  11 You have every single aspect of the world reflected within the trans community. 12 
AJ: Disabled people, immigrants, prison people, unemployed people. 13 
ET: Everyone.  So there is no way to not . . . to have an agenda, because how do you have an agenda 14 on humanity?  Its impossible.  I think that there are some . . . maybe theres ways of prioritizing 15 things, but even that seems impossible.  So no, I dont think that there should be an agenda or 16 that there is an agenda. 17 
AJ: Hmmm, wow.  Man, Enzi this has been a fascinating discussion.  So, keeping in mind with your 18 thoughts that there shouldnt be an agenda, Im going to wrap this conversation up with asking 19 you what do you think the world will be like for the trans community in 50 years? 20 
ET: In 50 years.  I have no clue.  I hope safe.  Im tired of . . . and I hope safe, safe for everyone.  Im 21 tired of the reality of Trans Day of Remembrance and also the reality of Black men, women, and 22 children being killed by institutions.  Im tired of lives being valued above other lives.  Im tired of 23 trans women being murdered and then being put on trial for their own murder and then being 24 degraded while theyre in the grave and Im tired of Black boys unarmed being killed by cops 25 and then the media putting them on trial and not even looking at the cops.  Im tired of stuff 26 happening and then people chalking it up to domestic violence.  So yeah, Im just tired of it as a 27 whole and I just want safety.  I could go on and on and on about that, but Im going to . . . thats 28 all I can hope for.  Is that going to happen?  I dont know.  I hate to be pessimistic and say no, 29 but Malcolm X said it greatly.  I cant quote it exactly but he said, If you put a knife in my heart 30 and you take it out a little bit, thats not progress.  And so, it doesnt matter if we move this 31 much forward, you still have a knife if my fucking chest and thats not progress.  And so we 32 might move a little bit in 50 years, but unless we completely dismantle capitalism because all of 33 these ways of violence very much intertwine with that, its not going to happen. 34 
AJ: Wow.  Thats a big challenge.   35 
ET: Yeah.   36 
AJ: Enzi, thank you for this really, really riveting and fascinating discussion.  I appreciate your ideas 37 around race and culture and privilege and certainly one of the biggest problems in our culture 38 and society and that is capitalism.  Have a great day. 39 
ET: Thank you, you too.   1 

