 
 
 
 
Crispin Torres Narrator   Andrea Jenkins Interviewer 
    
The Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies University of Minnesota 
 May 27, 2016 
 
 
 

   
 
  
The Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story, while providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source material about the transgender community.  The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for current and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public. 
The Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300 individuals over the next three years.  Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and experiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality.  This project will be led by Andrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist.  Andrea brings years of experience working in government, non-profits and LGBT organizations.  If you are interested in being involved in this exciting project, please contact Andrea. 
Andrea Jenkins jenki120@umn.edu (612) 625-4379 
 
 
 
 
  
Andrea Jenkins  -AJ 1 
Crispin Torres  -CT 2 
 3 
 4 
AJ: Hello. 5 
CT: Hello. 6 
AJ: My name is Andrea Jenkins and I am the oral historian for the Transgender Oral History Project 7 at the University of Minnesota.  Today is May 27, 2016.  I am here in Minneapolis with Crispin 8 Torres.  Im honored to sit down and talk with you today, Crispin.  How are you?  9 
CT: Im very well, thank you. 10 
AJ: Super.  Can you just introduce yourself?  State your name again, how to spell it so that our 11 transcriptionist can make sure we have that accurate.  State your gender identity today and your 12 gender assigned at birth and what pronouns do you use? 13 
CT: Sure.  So my name is Crispin Torres.  Thats spelled C-r-i-s-p-i-n, last name is T-o-r-r-e-s.  Today 14 my gender identity is trans masculine and I was assigned female at birth.  What was the last 15 thing  pronouns? 16 
AJ: Yeah, pronouns. 17 
CT: He, him, and his. 18 
AJ: He, him, and his.  Great.  Awesome.  Its interesting that you said, My gender identity today, 19 right.  Does that mean that it changes over time or it has changed over time?  What does that 20 mean to you? 21 
CT: I think about gender as something that . . . for everyone, is something that fluctuates on a day or 22 throughout your life.  Im of the mind that gender is something that we experience over a 23 lifetime and that it may not be as fluid for other people as it is for others, but I think that we all 24 have a gender identity and we all have different expressions and different experiences given, 25 pretty much, any given day.  I just like to throw that in there to remind folks that trans or not, 26 you have a gender identity. 27 
AJ: I love that. 28 
CT: News flash to some people. 29 
AJ: Because some people dont really think about it in those aspects and they absolutely do have a 30 gender identity, a sexual identity, even though it may be more mainstream than people who 31 identify as transgender but they have a gender identity nonetheless.  So thanks for that 32 reminder.  33 
CT: Sure. 34 
AJ: So Crispin, just to kind of get our juices flowing a little bit here, can you tell me what is the first 1 thing you remember in life?  Just to be clear, it doesnt have to be around your gender identity, 2 though if your first memory was around your gender identity, thats absolutely fine but I just 3 dont want you to think, Ive got to dig for some juicy trans memory.   4 
CT: Juicy trans memory . . . I have plenty of those for later. 5 
AJ: Yeah. 6 
CT: My earliest memory is really of playing with this Fisher Price radio that I had as a kid, it was a 7 little plastic tape recorder that you could stick a tape in and record or you could play back like an 8 actual tape cassette in there.  It had a little microphone that you could record stuff or talk into  9 or play or sing with a tape that was in there.  I think thats what it was meant for  it was meant 10 for little five-year-olds to stick a tape in and sing with it.  So yeah, thats probably my earliest 11 memory  of sort of just loving that, that was my favorite thing to play with.  Taking my 12 brothers cassettes, like Madonna, and play Nine Inch Nails  like all the 1980s ragers and 13 putting them in there and just singing and thinking about music and kind of trying to make my 14 own music at a really early age. 15 
AJ: Is that right  and youre a musician? 16 
CT: I am.   17 
AJ: What instruments do you play? 18 
CT: I play a whole range of instruments.  Im a multi-instrumentalist.  I started out with the 19 saxophone when I was a young child, that was my first instrument.   20 
AJ: Nice. 21 
CT: Then I played that all through high school, but Im really a guitarist.  Im a rock musician so I play 22 bass and drums, guitar, sing. 23 
AJ: Heavy metal? 24 
CT: Not heavy metal  punk music. 25 
AJ: Punk?  Wow. 26 
CT: Yeah. 27 
AJ: OK. 28 
CT: The sister of metal.   29 
AJ: So head-banging punk music or just . . .? 30 
CT: Yeah, Ive kind of played it all throughout the years that Ive been a musician.  Ive played 31 melodic poppier type of stuff and Ive played definitely more head banging mosh pit, breaking 32 the drums down kind of thing.  So yeah. 33 
AJ: So are you in a band? 34 
CT: Currently Im working on a new band.  My most recent . . . I was in two bands recently.  One was 1 like a queer punk rock band, The Recruitment. 2 
AJ: It was called The Recruitment.   3 
CT: Yeah.  We were taking applications.  And then I was in a short-lived queer punk Alanis 4 Morissette cover band.   5 
AJ: Oh wow. 6 
CT: So we did all . . .  7 
AJ: Very specific. 8 
CT: Very specific.  And it was funny because we thought it was kind of a niche market and no one 9 would kind of be interested in that, but it turns out there is a lot of LGBT Alanis Morissette fans 10 out there.   11 
AJ: Who knew, right? 12 
CT: Who knew?  And its like a whole sub-community, theres room for everyone. 13 
AJ: If the music speaks to you, youve got to make it. 14 
CT: So yeah, Im kind of re-working something new but those are the two projects I have right now. 15 
AJ: So you talked about this tape recorder that you recall as a kid.  Where did you grow up? 16 
CT: I grew up in Chicago, Illinois.  I was born in Mexico City.  My family is from Mexico City and I 17 moved back to Chicago where my mom also grew up, at a very young age, as a baby, so pretty 18 much my whole life Ive been in Chicago through and through. 19 
AJ: Chicago.  What was it like growing up in Chicago?   20 
CT: I loved it.  Its not . . . its not perfect, you know.  Its certainly one of the most segregated places 21 Ive ever been in all my travels to different places. 22 
AJ: I grew up in Chicago, I would concur with that assessment. 23 
CT: Yeah, in a very deep institutional kind of way.  I had to unlearn a lot of racism, unlearn a lot of 24 internalized racism in my consciousness building as an adult  because I grew up in Chicago.  But 25 because of that it makes folks that are doing anti-racist work and social justice work a little bit 26 more challenged to do that personal work if youre from Chicago and it makes it more powerful 27 when you can have that consciousness and youre really . . . you come from a different 28 perspective.  So I dont know, I love Chicago because of that, because I think its got a grit to it 29 that other cities dont.  People say New York has got a grit but I dont think its got anything on 30 us.   31 
AJ: Not quite like Chicago. 32 
CT: Not quite like Chicago.  My grandfather was a carpenter so he was working class, like high-skilled 33 labor but definitely working class, and just moved his whole family from Mexico.  So theres 34 definitely a really strong work ethic that I grew up with. 35 
AJ: Very strong. 1 
CT: Just really diverse, to some degree, but really insular communities of color, really strong sort of 2 representation of South Asian folks, Korean folks, African folks, Mexican people, of course, other 3 Latino people, Puerto Ricans.  So theres big sort of communities but there are also sort of . . . 4 
AJ: Insular. 5 
CT: Insular, were really kind of sectioned off, I think, as communities.  So yeah, its been kind of 6 amazing to live there my whole life and kind of see the city evolve and be involved . . . yeah, be 7 involved as a citizen but now also as someone who engages in the civic life of Chicago too  and 8 that has opened up my eyes a lot.   9 
AJ: Cool. 10 
CT: Yeah, its cool.  I love Chicago. 11 
AJ: I want to explore that a little bit more a little later.  Did you go to grade school there? 12 
CT: Yeah, I went to grade school in the city.  We grew up on 31st and Pulaski, over in Little Village.  I 13 was bussed every day to a school, a magnet school, in Lincoln Park where my mom was a 14 teacher. 15 
AJ: Thats a long ways away. 16 
CT: Sure is!  That would be an hour and a half. 17 
AJ: Thats like an hour or two at least. 18 
CT: Yeah, an hour and a half commute for a little kid.  I remember those bus trips. 19 
AJ: Did you take public transportation? 20 
CT: It was a school bus that would come and pick us up.  But it was far. 21 
AJ: So your mom was an educator? 22 
CT: My mom was a teacher, yeah.  Shes retired now but she was a principal and an administrator 23 with CPS for 25+ years. 24 
AJ: And CPS is Chicago Public Schools. 25 
CT: Thats right, Chicago Public Schools  right.  So she was a teacher and the schools around us 26 werent . . . they werent great, she had actually worked at them and she said, I dont want you 27 to go to these schools, which is really common in Chicago to be bussed far away  still, to be 28 bussed far away to go to a better school.  So . . . yeah. 29 
AJ: So when you were in grade school did you experience any sort of harassment or bullying or 30 anything? 31 
CT: Yeah, I would say that when I was in elementary school and junior high I struggled a little bit  32 not so much because of my gender identity.  I definitely was teased.  Ive always been a husky 33 
kid and I think that was honestly the harder . . . the struggle as a young person, thats what I got 1 teased for, for sure. 2 
AJ: Body image and body size. 3 
CT: Body image  yeah.  Especially as someone who was assigned female, that was something that 4 folks were extremely critical of.  And then I went to school . . . I went to schools that were 5 actually fairly diverse for Chicago, a good healthy mix of . . . I went to school with Black kids, 6 Asian kids, white kids.  It wasnt predominantly white.   7 
AJ: Or predominantly Latino or . . . 8 
CT: Right, right  not until I went to high school, then it was a little more homogeneous.  But yeah, it 9 was definitely . . . that was kind of my cross to bear as a young person.  But then when I got to 10 high school it was a different game.  I just sort of . . . I was about to say I came out of my shell, 11 but I was never in a shell.  So I think I kind of avoided a lot of teasing just because Ive always 12 had a really strong personality and Ive always been able to roll things off my back.  If people 13 didnt like me, and still to this day, Im just like, All right, well screw you. 14 
AJ: Ive got 100 other friends over here. 15 
CT: Yeah, Ive got other friends, I dont need this guy. 16 
AJ: Well thats good to hear, Im glad to hear that.  When did you begin to notice that your gender 17 may be different from the gender you were assigned at birth? 18 
CT: I think I always knew.  I think I knew that from my earliest memories.  Its funny because you 19 asked me what my earliest memory was and most of the memories that I have of first 20 consciousness are of being either connected to being obsessed with music and performance, 21 that was always part of it, or its about sort of my knowing . . . kind of just my gender queerness, 22 I guess, as a young person  just knowing that I didnt . . . whatever box I was given, and even 23 before I had language to understand that I was being put in a box, just felt . . . I just felt 24 different.  I just remember being in sort of like this . . . I had this little sweatsuit that I really 25 liked, it was like a cute little 1980s number.  It was a matching sweatsuit. 26 
AJ: Velour. 27 
CT: I think it was like all cotton sweatshirt but it was like . . . the top part of it was gray and the arms 28 were red and the little pants were red and it had the little cuffs at the bottom of the sweat pants 29 . . . you know, theyd cup your little legs.  But I loved that thing, I must have worn it every day.  30 My mom never policed my clothing, she just always let us wear what we felt comfortable in 31 once we were able to pick our own clothes.  She knew that I liked that so I think that she washed 32 it every day so I could wear it every day. I just remember feeling like, I really like this because I 33 can get dirty in it, it looks really cute, I feel fashionable.  I just remember feeling like fabulous, 34 gender fabulous in that.   35 
AJ: So was it . . . did it feel sort of androgynous or masculizing to you? 36 
CT: Yeah, because certainly there was a little bit of pressure from other people, not from my 37 parents but from other people, to wear pink berets or scrunchies were really big when I was a 38 kid too and people were like, Yeah, wear a scrunchie or wear barrettes.  And Im like, No.  I 1 didnt want to do that and there was something that felt . . . I wasnt one of those trans folks 2 that was like, I knew that I was a boy, I wanted to be a boy.  I dont know that I had the 3 language for that or that I even thought about it that way.  I just knew that I liked all the stuff  I 4 had Barbies and I had Ninja Turtles.  I liked it all and I kind of felt like . . . yeah, maybe something 5 was kind of . . . I dont know if I would say androgynous but something that was like gender 6 queer or just something that was more me.  I was always drumming to my own drummer.  I 7 think thats what it was about. 8 
AJ: And Chicago is . . . one of the things that I remember about growing up in Chicago and still 9 visiting now, it is a very fashion-conscious city and people are deeply into how they look and 10 how they present themselves and labels and all that kind of stuff, so theres a lot of pressure to 11 be cute and be in fashion. 12 
CT: Right, right. 13 
AJ: So you kind of always knew something was different, so I dont know  when did you figure it 14 out?   15 
CT: Its a little complicated because I came out as a gay female when I was 15. 16 
AJ: OK, so in high school. 17 
CT: In high school, at a pretty young age.  I was a sophomore in high school. 18 
AJ: And I just want to be sure to clarify, there are no right . . . I dont have a right answer for you, 19 whatever your story is, is your story. 20 
CT: Definitely.  I came out at a young age as a gay and queer person, I identified as queer at a very 21 young age.  That was still when things were . . . it was pretty political, and it is political still to 22 identify as queer.  But at the time it really kind of shocked people to hear that. 23 
AJ: That was right on the beginning edge of queer I would imagine. 24 
CT: Yeah, there were no Qs on any of the acronyms . . . people were like, What?  25 
AJ: But you were literally claiming that label. 26 
CT: Yeah.  And so I came out as a young person in high school.  I had no problem coming out.  I just 27 figured out in terms of my sexuality . . . I was just like, Well something is just different.  I 28 couldnt figure it out, I was just like, I just know that Im not straight.  Im not really sure whats 29 going on.  Then its the 1990s and given the language, I was listening to punk rock and Riot Girl 30 was a big thing, so what was handed to me was a pretty binary understanding of gender and 31 sexuality.  So I came out when I thought I was a gay female and then just really active in the 32 LGBT community from that point on.   33 
AJ: Did you have a GSA at your school? 34 
CT: We had a GSA and I wasnt part of it.  I just didnt . . . I dont know, I was just doing my own thing 35 and I really didnt . . . I didnt need . . . it was mostly a support group and I didnt really feel like I 36 needed support.  I was just like, Yeah, Im super gay. 37 
AJ: And Im cool with it. 1 
CT: Im so cool with it.  And plus I was in theatre and everyone assumed I . . .   2 
AJ: OK. 3 
CT: And then . . . yeah, so then I kind of went on through life being involved with LGBT events or I 4 just knew queer people through other music and arts and theatre that I met in the community.  5 My oldest brother is also . . . hes queer, hes a gay and queer identified cis gender person.  But 6 he came out to me when I was 13 and really at the cusp of when I was sorting all that out, so it 7 was definitely like another added layer of unpacking all the gender and sexuality pieces.  So I 8 was familiar with LGBT issues and engaged in . . . 9 
AJ: And language. 10 
CT: And language and engaged in the community.  I was really excited about social justice work at 11 the time and so thats when I started getting all my political education.  I started connecting the 12 dots with social justice and civil rights movements with LGBT people as well.  And so that was 13 very formative for me in terms of how I was starting to understand my gender identity.  So I 14 started meeting trans folks, like the first trans person I met was in high school. 15 
AJ: Really?  Thats literally one of my questions. 16 
CT: Yeah, there was a trans person in my high school who I didnt know . . . I didnt know them 17 personally.  I met them through some kind of LGBT function I went to at some point but I 18 remember . . . I just remember seeing that person and being . . . they were pretty non-binary, 19 now looking back at it, and I think theyre a trans woman now, but I was like, Wow, theres 20 something about that person, and I couldnt quite figure it out.  And something about kind of 21 butch lesbian identity, which is sort of where I was getting pigeon-holed into as a person.  I was 22 not vibing with that, that did not . . .  23 
AJ: That did not resonate with you. 24 
CT: . . . resonate with me.  And everyone would always be like, Oh, you know, youre lesbian.  Oh, 25 youre butch.  Or, Youre a stud.  Just something about that didnt feel right for me, it didnt 26 feel like the right kind of way to frame my masculinity.  So anyway, I kind of was unpacking all 27 these things through a social justice lens and meeting LGBT people and I went to college and I 28 really started getting even more active with political work and as a young person who was able 29 to vote and then turning 21 and really being able to be independent and engage in the political 30 system on my own.  I met lots of different kinds of queer people and I started doing politicized 31 LGBT work and that was when I really started meeting trans people and having them in my 32 community.  I was probably 19 . . . 18 or 19 when I started organizing with trans people, sharing 33 space with trans people  yeah. 34 
AJ: Though you werent identifying as a trans person at the time. 35 
CT: No, not at all  not even gender variant or gender queer.  That was just not how I thought about 36 myself.  I had a lot of unpacking to do.  But, yeah, I definitely . . . I spent a lot of time thinking 37 about those issues as well because I knew as somebody who wasnt presented as a feminine 38 person who was assigned female, I knew that those issues impacted me.  So I always . . . and at 39 the time the trans community and the trans politics were just so different and the stakes were 1 even higher than they are today. 2 
AJ: I know how different they were, but can you expound on that just a little bit? 3 
CT: The T was literally not existent.  Trans folks were just not part of . . . part of it was that they 4 truthfully were intentionally kept out of spaces because folks really could not see why trans 5 people needed to be part of the LGBQ community and why they were also siblings to our 6 struggle.  People just honestly . . . its amazing because we still have some of those same 7 conversations today, but its met with a little bit less hesitation, theres a shred of openness now 8 even in a hard conversation.  Its on peoples radar whereas when I was a young person, 9 honestly there was so much groundwork to be done around teaching people, just on a basic 10 one-to-one level around trans people.  Now the struggle is people not seeing trans people in 11 LGBTQ spaces but at the time it was like getting people to understand that trans people existed 12 period. 13 
AJ: Right.   14 
CT: That was a real challenge. 15 
AJ: And even trans people werent . . .  16 
CT: Trans people werent . . .  17 
AJ: Visibly or politically active in ways that they are now. 18 
CT: Engaged  yeah.  Because it was . . . 19 
AJ: Not even close. 20 
CT: They were just not empowered to be so and the trans folks that I knew who were engaged and 21 who were out, more than half of them were stealth and organizing kind of behind the scenes.  22 And then the other folks were really, I think, trailblazers. They were like, Fuck this shit, you 23 know.   24 
AJ: Right. 25 
CT: Im trans, Im here, you all are going to have to deal with it.  I really gravitated toward those 26 people because I love that attitude period about anything, just that attitude that people have 27 about just being like, Fuck it, who cares.  But yeah, I definitely . . . I learned a lot in that time in 28 my life and I ended up dating a trans man when I was in college.  We started dating and we were 29 both female identified and he came out to me as trans while we were together. 30 
AJ: Oh wow.  31 
CT: And yeah, he started transitioning when we were together.   32 
AJ: Did you stay in the relationship? 33 
CT: We stayed in the relationship, yes.  And then we separated after that and then years later, then I 34 came out to him. 35 
AJ: Oh wow.  1 
CT: So its sort of . . . yeah, its sort of wild. 2 
AJ: Remember that night when I . . .? 3 
CT: Right.  Oh my gosh.  It was kind of wild because we had tons of trans . . . I had a lot of trans 4 friends in college, specifically trans men  like people I grew up with in the queer womens 5 community. 6 
AJ: Right. 7 
CT: Or like the lesbian community.  And yeah, just all these folks were really starting to come out 8 when I was in college and it was like, Wow.  The culture was changing, the acceptance was 9 changing, people were getting language and support for things.  It just made it so much easier 10 for people to kind of do what they needed to do and speak their truth and . . . yeah.  So it wasnt 11 until many years later that I even came out as a trans person to all these people who were also 12 trans in my life and queer in my life and gender queer.  Folks were like, OK, we know Crispin, 13 we have to go get lunch now.  It took long enough.  14 
AJ: It took you long enough.  So, you have a sibling thats queer and clearly they came out, you said, 15 at 13-years-old.   16 
CT: And he was probably 24, 23 or 24 at the time. 17 
AJ: How many siblings do you have?  18 
CT: I have two. I have two older brothers.  Im the baby by many years  theres eight years between 19 me and my next closest brother and then 11 between my oldest brother. 20 
AJ: So, like literally they were gone out of the house as you were growing up, you were almost like 21 an only child for a long time. 22 
CT: They were gone  yeah.  Yeah, definitely. I feel like I was an only child. 23 
AJ: But the point of my comments, like how did your family . . . how did your parents take this news 24 of your brother being queer and then you came out as queer at 15, and Im assuming . . . I 25 shouldnt assume, did you come out to your parents when you were 15? 26 
CT: Yes, I did come out to my parents  accidently, when I was 15. Oh my gosh, thats another story.  27 I only recently came out to my parents as trans.  28 
AJ: OK. 29 
CT: Like within the last . . . I would say, less than a year. 30 
AJ: Really? 31 
CT: Yeah.  And my brother came out to my parents around that same time  a good 15 years ago, 17 32 years ago.  So to answer your question, my parents . . . I dont really know.  We never told my 33 dad about either my brother or Is sexuality  so we both came out to our mom and we both 34 came out to our other brother.  But we never had a conversation with my dad about being gay, 35 he just kind of intuited that from our open talking about it sort of around him.  And coming from 1 just a Mexican family, traditional in some ways  were Catholic.  My mom is a super, super 2 progressive Catholic person and my dad is Catholic but he is also . . . he wasnt raised super strict 3 Catholic so he also, I think . . . he just doesnt have like as much of a strong sense of rigid 4 Catholicism as you might expect of someone from his demographic.  So I think my mom was just 5 amazing when we came out to her, both me and my brother, with our sexuality.  But when I 6 came out as trans, that was just a different struggle. 7 
AJ: That was tough. 8 
CT: That was a different thing.  Were still working through it, but I told my mom that I was trans 9 right after my dad had kind of a health scare.  He had to have a couple emergency surgeries and 10 we werent sure if he was going to make it or if it was going to be a long-term complication.  11 And, after that I just got worried and I said, I dont want something to happen to either of my 12 parents.  Theyre older in age for as young as I am, theyre approaching their 70s, mid-60s and 13 early 70s, so I just thought . . . that was my greatest fear was that my parents would . . . that 14 something would happen to them before I could actually tell my truth to them and be honest.  I 15 just couldnt talk about my life  like my life is organizing trans work, trans activism.  All my 16 friends are trans or gender queer and so it was hard to . . . I felt like I was holding back so much 17 from them.  Yeah, so I came out to my mom soon after my dad recovered from a bunch of 18 different medical issues.  She didnt take it very well.  She wasnt in a good place, but there was 19 too much at stake for me  I just had to tell her.  Its like breaking up with someone  theres no 20 good time to come out, youve just got to rip the Band-Aid.  So I told her just before I had my 21 name legally changed.  People had already been calling me Crispin for a couple years at that 22 point and it was just getting bizarre and I finally told her. I said, I want to give you an option to 23 opt out of this name, is basically what I told her. Youre my mom and you named me and if 24 you want me to call myself something else I will.  She wasnt ready at the time . . . I dont know, 25 I havent talked to her recently. Now she knows that I changed it and she is very aware that 26 other people call me different things.  She doesnt use my given name anymore, she calls me 27 Crispy, which is hilarious. 28 
AJ: Crispy? 29 
CT: Crispy.  She just thinks its funny to call me Crispy Cream.   30 
AJ: So shes finding some humor in it. 31 
CT: Yeah, shes come a long way.  But when I first told her she was like, I dont understand.  You 32 can change your gender, you can do whatever you need to do with your life and your body, 33 youre your own person, youre an adult, but your name  thats sacred, I dont know why you 34 would change that.  I dont understand what your name has to do with your gender.  I just 35 straight up said, Mom, if Im a boy, why would I want a girls name?  My given name was 36 extremely feminine  super feminine.  37 
AJ: Senorita. 38 
CT: Right.  This doesnt really suit me so well.  So yeah, that was a little bit of a learning curve and 39 she wasnt really ready to offer any alternative names.  Its also . . . its my grandfathers name. 40 
AJ: So Crispin.  That was going to be one of my questions  how did you come to this name?  So its 1 a family name. 2 
CT: A family name, yeah.   3 
AJ: So Crispin. 4 
CT: Crispin is my grandfathers name.  Creespeen is how Spanish folks say it.  So that was his name, 5 my dads father who I never met.  Im told Im very similar to him. He passed away long before I 6 was born, he passed away pretty young.  I dont know, I just wanted my old name . . . my given 7 name also started with a C and so I kind of wanted to keep my initials. 8 
AJ: Keep some continuity.   9 
CT: Yeah.  I wanted a family name, I didnt want like a random willy-nilly kind of thing, it was 10 important to me  family and culture and all that is important to me.   11 
AJ: So Skylar wasnt calling out to you?   12 
CT: No Brian Torres  no.  Josh Torres, just didnt have the same ring to it.  So yeah, thats kind of 13 where the name comes from.  Its interesting, some people call me Creespeen if they speak 14 Spanish and other people call me Crispin.  But, I take whatever  thats fine, just so long as its 15 not my given name. 16 
AJ: Thats an interesting story, a fascinating story, in that your mom had less of an issue with sort of 17 these really serious and sort of non-reversible body changes but was very uncomfortable with 18 the name.  But, as you said to her, this was a very deliberate choice that you made.  Parents do 19 take a lot of time to come up with a name for their child and . . . 20 
CT: I think, like in retrospect, the name thing was really about her . . . changing your name or asking 21 people to call you something different implicates them in your transition.   22 
AJ: Yes. 23 
CT: I think that piece, that part of it, that was the part that she could not reckon with at the time.   24 
AJ: So, I dont want to have anything to do with this . . .. 25 
CT: Correct, right.  Its sort of like my sexuality was something she didnt have to understand or 26 engage. Its like that was . . . there was a clear boundary there.  She was like, Well, you love 27 who you love and sleep with who you sleep with, I dont care  that doesnt have anything to do 28 with how I love you or whether or not youre my daughter.  But me saying, I am your son and 29 my name is Crispin is like re-shifting the way people think about you.  And its that piece, that 30 piece of calling people in to be part of your process, because you have to  as a trans person you 31 have to ask people to participate in your transition if they want to be part of your life.  And if 32 they dont, a lot of people will say, You dont have to be part of my life.   33 
AJ: Right. 34 
CT: And thats kind of the scary part of it and I think that for her it was not an option to not be a part 35 of my life.  My mom is like the most devastatingly selfless mom  she would throw herself over 36 the coals for us, any of us.  Shes the sweetest person.  So I think for her thats what was hard, 1 because she was like, You are my child and this is how I see you.  But she was never going to 2 disown us but I think she had to eventually figure out how she was going to work it through.  I 3 put my foot down, I was like, Well those are the options, Im never going to disown you but this 4 is going to make things weird.  Like, Dont make it weird mom.   The turning point for us was 5 when I had my top surgery and she just . . . I straight up just told her . . . I didnt want to go into 6 surgery without telling my parents that thats where I was going and I was going to Cleveland 7 and I lived in Chicago and so I was going with friends and they were driving me out there and 8 going to a hospital.  I just didnt want to do . . . especially since my dad just had a hospital scare.  9 I didnt want them to be worried and so I just called her like a month before I went and I was 10 just like, Listen, Im going to have breast removal basically.  I didnt want to go into detail but I 11 was like, Im getting my breasts removed mom.  And she was like, Oh, OK.  And she kind of 12 sat there on the phone, all quiet for a second, and she was like, All right, well.  And this was 13 after I told her I was going with friends, my insurance was covering it, anything extra I had saved 14 up for.  I basically told her my plan and she said, Well, it sounds like youve put a lot of thought 15 into this, youre an adult, anything I can do to support you Ill do.  And so I told her . . . she 16 immediately said, Do you want us to go with you? 17 
AJ: Wow. 18 
CT: Yeah, and I was like, No, I dont think thats good, because I didnt want her to be stressing me 19 out  I didnt need the anxiety.  20 
AJ: No. 21 
CT: So they offered to come and yeah, I just told them, If you could help me when I come back that 22 would be amazing.  So that was the tide shifter for us.  I think she saw the seriousness of my 23 transition, it wasnt flippant.  Its not just something where I was like, You know, Im just going 24 to go by Crispin today.  Its like a whole life change that I obviously spent lots of time thinking 25 about, a lot of sleepless nights unpacking my gender and my relationships and my sexuality.  I 26 think finally my mom was able to see that it was like, OK, youre going under the knife for this, 27 this is real. 28 
AJ: This is real. 29 
CT: So yeah, thats been kind of . . . thats been great.  And as a result Ive let my family, in general, 30 into . . . 31 
AJ: Your broader family. 32 
CT: Yeah, into sort of the fold of my life and not being scared to invite them to spaces where I know 33 there are going to be other trans people or meet other people who are going to call me Crispin 34 and use he pronouns  I just do that so they can see that sort of modeled behavior and see that 35 everyone else is fine, people are calling me Crispin and my head is not going to explode. 36 
AJ: Exactly  and I have good friends who love me.  I think thats one of the things that parents 37 worry about too is like everybody is going to be out to kill my kid and theyre going to be lonely 38 for the rest of their lives because nobody else understands this.   39 
CT: Right. 1 
AJ: So how is your broader family, your extended family, with your transition? 2 
CT: They dont really know . . . like, they know, but no one has really talked about it.  My mom . . .  3 
AJ: You look pretty masculine. 4 
CT: Thats what Im going for.   5 
AJ: Crispy  can I call you Crispy? 6 
CT: I love being called Crisp and Crispy  just FYI.  My close friends call me Crisp.  So there . . . its 7 weird, its really weird, because Im close to a couple of my cousins who are sort of like sibling 8 cousins. 9 
AJ: Yeah, I know them well. 10 
CT: We grew up in the same neighborhood and were just real tight.  So, theyve known for a long 11 time and I think were at the point, all of us, where were just tired of having to pretend its not 12 a thing.  I do look different . . . I just look different from what I used to look and I sound 13 different, from what I used to sound like.  People obviously notice that and whatever theyve 14 sorted out about it doesnt really matter, its just sort of . . . there was a time when I would not 15 bind when I was with my family or whatever, try to look more feminine or talk higher, and Im 16 just like, I cant,  It takes so much energy to build up this wall and try and pretend  they 17 obviously know, they know.  We havent had a conversation about it but part of it is . . .  18 
AJ: But you still get invited to barbeques and . . .  19 
CT: Yeah. 20 
AJ: Weddings . . . I dont know, does your family do quinceaneras and those kinds of things? 21 
CT: Yeah, there are huge parties  lots of big parties all the time.  Thats the thing about specifically . 22 . . I think Latino culture . . . I dont want to be too monolithic because . . . 23 
AJ: No. 24 
CT: Its like a multinational, multiethnic kind of identity but I think by and large I can speak to my 25 experience as a Mexican person, I think our culture is so oriented around family . . . there is 26 nothing more important in this world than your family to Mexican folks.  So the thought of 27 alienating someone for being trans or being gay or queer . . . its fairly uncommon.  There 28 actually are studies about this now that a couple of different organizations have done studies 29 about family acceptance in Latino communities, and they suggest that Latino communities and 30 Latino people in general, are more accepting of their LGBT children than their white 31 counterparts.  So I sort of always like to remind people that that is the case because its sort of 32 counteracting that racist mentality of, White people are the only people that accept their LGBT 33 children and theyre PFLAG moms.   34 
AJ: Actually theyre the least accepting in many instances. 35 
CT: Yeah, in many instances and there is just that core . . . its always a journey, especially for trans 1 people and their families, but I think there is a different sense of obligation to your family and 2 your blood, there is just a different understanding of what that means.  Im grateful because I 3 know that even if it may not always be like a big letter that I write them or one-on-ones that I 4 have with lots of family, theyre going to love me and accept me no matter what  and be 5 ridiculous no matter what, be totally out of control.  And that doesnt matter whether or not Im 6 trans.   7 
AJ: So youve talked a lot about medical interventions and I appreciate it.  Did you pursue hormone 8 therapy? 9 
CT: Yes, I am pursuing it.  Im in pursuit.  Yeah, Ive been on testosterone for three years now, 10 almost four years at a really, really low dose  just consistently for three years. 11 
AJ: Please understand, to the extent that you feel comfortable  you dont have to answer this is 12 you dont want to or you can reframe the answer or question as it were, but do you have any 13 thoughts or ideas about any further surgery at all?   14 
CT: I have . . . so I had top surgery . . . so Im on hormones and I had top surgery this past March, so 15 Im really . . .  16 
AJ: Yeah, pretty recent  still recuperating and not thinking about nothing else right now. 17 
CT: Yeah, those scares are still healing.  That was amazing though, that was like a life changing thing 18 for me. 19 
AJ: Really? 20 
CT: Yeah, that was top on my list.  For me, I had top surgery and sort of . . . some people talk about . 21 . . like Buck Angel talks about how he had top surgery and it unlocked his male identity and 22 nothing else mattered after that.  I dont feel like more male because . . . I just dont think about 23 myself like that.  Im not like, I feel more like a man.  Its just not . . . thats not my truth.  But 24 yeah, it did change my sense of comfort and it feels good to be in my skin in that way.  The 25 femininity attached with that part of my body never felt good to me.  I never had a lot of 26 feelings of extreme dysphoria, body dysphoria, but I definitely knew that that was just . . . it 27 didnt belong on me.  Its like wearing the wrong shirt or something  this is not working for me.  28 And so, yeah I dont know.  I dont think too much about bottom surgery just because . . . like I 29 said, Im super comfortable in my skin in terms of . . . yeah, sexually and all that stuff.  It just 30 doesnt . . . Ive never had a problem feeling connected to that part of my body, which is totally 31 fine.  There are some things about being a trans person  you could obsess for days and days 32 about, Oh well, I wish that I didnt have these wide hips, or, I wish I was a little bit taller.  33 Things that in your mind are more feminine  or also on the opposite side, that you could obsess 34 over.  And for me, those little pieces of femininity . . . for instance, Im a shorter guy, Im an 35 average height female-sized person, but Im a pretty short little guy.  I do wish I was a little taller 36 sometimes but then at least it reminds me that I came from a female experience.  That, to me, is 37 so important.  Letting go completely of my female, feminine roots is something I never want to 38 do.  Its just sort of like acknowledging that we live in a patriarchal society, we live in a 39 misogynist society and I am proud of having those female qualities, of those feminine qualities, 40 and then its just part of my history, its part of the legacy of what makes being trans so amazing.  1 To me, I wouldnt want to have been born a cis person  honestly.  I wouldnt have wanted to 2 have been born a cis man, its not how I think about my trans-ness.  I am trans, I am so proud of 3 being trans.  We transverse, we travel the binary, we break it down and were asking other 4 people to break it down.  And so to me, I dont fucking need . . . I dont need thinner hips or 5 whatever.  Sometimes you get caught in that spiral of body image or trends, passing-ness or 6 aesthetic or whatever you want to call it.  But I think by and large Im just so happy to be able to 7 live the truth that I have so its like . . . with regard to surgery, I dont really think too much 8 about bottom surgery or anything but Im also like . . . I feel like I hold the right to change my 9 mind about that at any given time.   10 
AJ: You absolutely do. 11 
CT: And I think thats another myth too about trans people that folks often times think, Well, you 12 want a penis and you want top surgery, what do you want?  Its like a menu and Im like, No, 13 its not really how . . .  Youre just living in your skin and youre like seeing how your body 14 changes on hormones and seeing how your sexuality changes and how your body interacts with 15 other peoples bodies . . . its always different, its a journey.   16 
AJ: Love and relationships.  Are you in a relationship now? 17 
CT: I am.   18 
AJ: What is your sexual orientation and who are you involved with at this point? 19 
CT: Sure.  So I identify as a queer and gay man  trans man.  But I am partnered with a cis-gendered 20 female identified person and Ive been with her for almost four years. 21 
AJ: So the people watching this tape are confused right now and theyre like, What the fuck is 22 going on here with Crispin?   23 
CT: I can break it down. 24 
AJ: So break it down. 25 
CT: So I . . . yeah, so it sort of . . . I guess Im always leading it with, Its complicated, but its 26 actually not complicated, its just . . . 27 
AJ: Its just Crispin. 28 
CT: Its just me.  But yeah, I mostly have dated female-identified people throughout my life, but 29 again I think I kind of grew up in . . . and all of us do, grow up in a culture where youre gay or 30 youre straight and youre trans or youre not and none of that made sense for me  ever. I think 31 Ive always been attracted to men but Ive always been . . . because I was seen as a butch 32 lesbian, pushed into thinking that that was the only option.  In fact, not only was I just a lesbian 33 but I had to also only be attracted to feminine people, feminine women specifically.   34 
AJ: So you couldnt be attracted to masculinity  women and men. 35 
CT: Couldnt be attracted to masculinity  just period.  Masculinity was not something I was 36 attracted to, which is also super heterosexist or whatever.  So I kind of . . . just unpacking my 37 gender has kind of allowed me to be a masculine person with just a . . . like a queer masculinity.  1 Once I realized that I have a queer masculinity and that feels good to me and thats my truth, 2 then it allowed me to sort of feel more empowered in acknowledging that I am attracted to 3 men.  So yeah, I identify as gay and queer because I feel mostly attracted to, primarily attracted 4 to, masculine of center people and masculine of center men.  And again, just queer masculinity 5  for me, thats sort of my key of attraction.  And my partner, I would also say, is a queerly 6 masculine person even though shes a cis-gendered female identified person.  I dont know  I 7 just sort of love the queer butch energy.  I dont know  I love it, I just love a non-traditional kind 8 of gender-explorative person who has got those sort of masculine qualities.  But yeah, thats 9 why I say gay . . . and I also grew up in gay male culture because I had an older brother who is 10 gay and I just, at the time, when I was starting to be in the LGBT community it was mostly gay 11 men and then a few queer women and a few trans people, but mostly gay men.  And so I really 12 kind of grew up identifying with parts of that culture and parts of it are really toxic too.   13 
AJ: Queer Eye for the Straight Guy kind of world.   14 
CT: Yeah.  So I dont know.  Thats what informs kind of who I am and who Im attracted to, but . . . 15 yeah. 16 
AJ: Ive got to make sure I get that polka-dot . . . 17 
CT: Oh, the little square. 18 
AJ: Square pocket in the frame.  Thats awesome though, and it really does speak to sort of the 19 complexity of transgender identity and how, I think, it opens us up once we really, as you stated, 20 come to the acceptance that, you know, Im not a woman, Im not a man and I am a trans 21 person.  Right?   22 
CT: Yeah. 23 
AJ: And that youre OK with being a transgender person.   24 
CT: Yeah. 25 
AJ: Thats pretty incredible.  So, you didnt really . . . you havent experienced beyond what 26 everybody on the planet experiences with dating  like a hard time with relationships because of 27 your trans identity? 28 
CT: You know, its been . . . not so much.  I have been with . . . I think whether I identified as a non-29 cis person, lets just say that, in that part of my life Ive been fortunate to be with partners who 30 are very understanding about that, very open.  I have, I will say, engaging with the gay male 31 community, that has been horrible.   32 
AJ: Really? 33 
CT: Theres a lot of transphobia and a lot of general sort of misogyny in the gay male community, 34 specifically when talking about sex and bodies.  And so its a very binary-limiting community in 35 that way and so that has been challenging.  Even from just sort of a homosocial, homoerotic 36 kind of way of engaging with other gay men has been . . . its been not easy, its not been easy.   37 
AJ: And something that youre interested in pursuing. 38 
CT: Yeah, definitely.  Those spaces are important to me and, like I said, Ive always felt like that is 1 home, that is a space that I . . . its not necessarily somewhere I am all the time, but thats . . . 2 again, queer masculinity and masculinity that lives outside of sort of that expectation is 3 something that I identify with and Im a part of.  So its sort of like . . . both socially and sexually, 4 but its sort of like its not the most open, I would say, culture to trans people period  I 5 wouldnt even say trans man, just to trans people period.  Its really challenging.   6 
AJ: No.  Ive experienced that personally myself.  Tell me about your work life.  You work in the 7 LGBT community, if you will. 8 
CT: I do, I do. 9 
AJ: How has being trans affected your professional life? 10 
CT: Oh, its changed it just so much.  Ive been doing LGBT advocacy/organizing for a long time and 11 before that I was an educator.  I was a teacher in CPS and Ive also taught college courses.  But 12 always been sort of involved in LGBT organizing work in addition to, or with . . . in conjunction 13 with whatever role I was in.  Its just been hard . . . were just at a time in the movement when 14 trans people are . . . people want trans people at everything, like you need to fill the trans seat 15 at everything. 16 
AJ: Exactly.  Let me just stay out of this  you talk. 17 
CT: Yeah, its exhausting.  And not to say that some of that doesnt come from a good place, but 18 there definitely is this urgency to talk include trans people and to think about trans issues 19 because they feel like they have to.  And organizations and people in the movement work are so 20 scared of getting things wrong and doing things wrong, who arent trans, and it makes it hard to 21 find where the authenticity is coming from.  It really puts you on glass, it makes you feel like 22 youre like, No other trans people are here, well I guess Ive got to stay.  And so a lot of times 23 you sit through meetings and convenings and whatever where youre the only trans person in 24 the room and it is awful.  Its not because . . . you know that theres not other trans people, its 25 because no one else thought before, ahead of time, to invite trans people to the table  or 26 youre the only trans person of color.  So its just sort of . . . its hard, its really taxing 27 emotionally. 28 
AJ: And many times I find myself the only person of color in many spaces as well. 29 
CT: Oh exactly  definitely.  But yeah, emotionally I think thats what has changed about my job, just 30 the emotional labor of being a trans person in national movement organizing is just exhausting. 31 
AJ: Do you mind stating . . . Im sorry if I cut you off. 32 
CT: No, no, no. 33 
AJ: Do you mind stating where you work?  Are you comfortable with that? 34 
CT: Thats fine.  I work at Lambda Legal.   35 
AJ: So theyre probably not going to fire you for being a trans person. 36 
CT: I hope not, its going to be awkward . . . its going to be an awkward case to file.  It really is any 1 LGBT org, and I say national because thats my experience, but people on the ground experience 2 this too.  My job is to really talk to people about the work theyre doing on the ground too in 3 smaller organizations.  The same dynamics are there.  There is an urgency to include trans 4 people without the homework, without the back work of understanding how to talk to trans 5 people, how to authentically just welcome trans people, how to build community and trust with 6 us before you just plop us in for a speaking gig for 10 minutes  whatever.  Its hard.  Ive 7 actually had a lot of really productive and challenging conversations with people across the 8 movement and even in other organizations where folks have just said, Well, what are we doing 9 wrong?  What can we do to fix it?  Ive had difficult conversations and being like, Well, its 10 going to take a long time, its going to take a while because right now there is no trust with any 11 of these organizations with the larger trans movement.  The organizations that have some of 12 that trust are the trans organizations and then the distrust that those ones have are because 13 theyre white organizations. 14 
AJ: Yes. 15 
CT: So, yeah . . . were at a crux in the movement, I think.  We were just talking about this earlier 16 where the movement is . . . the people my age, again, where I grew up being fed this rhetoric 17 from the Clinton administration about how everyone is equal, everyone fits in diversity, 18 multiculturalism  all that stuff was kind of popping out when I was a young person, at the same 19 time when LGBT young people were starting to be more visible and more accepted in schools.  20 And also being empowered and starting to be mentored by people who had survived other 21 challenges and really starting to see that other people were thriving and getting that 22 mentorship.  And now were all of age where were like we have this race consciousness and 23 being like - oh wait, we still live in this super racist society, super misogynist society, super 24 transphobic society and now we have to engage and we have to push back and were 25 empowered to push back because our elders taught us how to do that.   26 
AJ: Right. 27 
CT: So its sort of . . . its a beautiful moment but its also on the heels of marriage and on the heels 28 of other more mainstream gay and lesbian efforts.  The trans movement is really starting to 29 break off into its own thing and . . . yeah, its a very strange time to be doing the kind of work 30 that I do because of that. 31 
AJ: Yeah.  So, OK  lets just dive a little deeper into that.  So what is the relationship between the L, 32 the G, and the B, politically and socially, even I guess? 33 
CT: I think . . . I dont know that I have an answer to that question.  I think we are . . . our histories 34 are inherently tied, right?  From my perspective, trans people, gender non-conforming people, 35 people of color built the LGBT movement.  We threw the first brick  literally. 36 
AJ: Literally.  Youre referring to Stonewall, the Compton riots . . . 37 
CT: Compton, yeah.  We began the fight, the literal fight and because of white supremacy and 38 capitalism and patriarchy, white gay men were the ones, by and large  and also white lesbians, 39 were the ones that were enfranchised to take that baton and build the infrastructure for what 40 we know today is the LGBT movement, the enfranchised LGBT movement.  So our histories are 1 intertwined.  The way that we are in community together  its there.  The way that we actually 2 share community together or build community together is not there.  LGBQ folks dont welcome 3 trans folks into the larger, broader conversation.  And like I said, I think theres efforts that are 4 well-intentioned efforts mostly, I think, to get trans folks into those spaces, but like I said, 5 theres a lot of pain in our community and a lot of hurt from years of feeling marginalized by 6 people we thought were the only people we could trust.  Its going to be years, I think, to rebuild 7 . . . and also just build, period, that kind of relationship.  And there are also . . . people always 8 say, Well, I dont get it, how does the T fit in?  If gender and sexuality are two different things, 9 why are they intertwined?  Its sort of like, again, we have a shared history of being 10 marginalized for an identity, right?  These are identity politics.  We also share a struggle with 11 people of color  with Black folks, with Latino folks, with people of different abilities.  We all are 12 folks that have experiences that dont fit within this mainstream culture and so its like yes, of 13 course, our histories and our experiences are tied together.  And, of course, every trans person 14 has a sexuality and every LGBQ person has a gender identity, which is . . . people just forget that.  15 Were in the struggle together because of that.   16 
AJ: And not to mention that the broader population, or the broader society, conflates gender 17 identity and sexual  orientation and so consequently gay and lesbian people are sort of lumped 18 into trans and trans people are lumped into LGBT by sort of default, almost.   19 
CT: Right.  And we can do both/and, thats what I always . . . I just dont see why we cant do . . . we 20 can celebrate each history . . . and we also lump gay and lesbians together but those 21 communities too also have completely separate struggles and, in a lot of times, just like us and 22 the LGBQ community . . .  23 
AJ: Clashes. 24 
CT: There were clashes and struggles within those sects, so sort of . . . I find it insulting when people 25 are like, Well I dont get it, why trans people?  Well, do you think lesbians werent 26 marginalized?  Do you think Black lesbians werent marginalized in the struggle?  Do you think 27 bi-sexual dont also have . . . people have their own stuff going on and it seems . . . its just basic.  28 Its people being so basic about like . . . like we have a rainbow, a breadth, of LGBTQIA people, 29 but we also . . . we have our individual issues.  I know that its hard for people to put those two 30 things together but . . . I dont know, thats what makes it so awesome to be a queer and trans 31 person. 32 
AJ: Pretty fricking awesome. 33 
CT: Yeah, its great.   34 
AJ: Man, so you sort of alluded to this a little bit earlier, but trans identity, transgender people, 35 gender non-conforming people have become more visible than at any point in time in my 36 lifetime with the most famous transgender person in the entire world now being Caitlyn Jenner.  37 Everybody knows Cait and, of course, theres Laverne Cox and Janet Mock and Chaz Bono and all 38 of these sort of celebrities, but on the flip side of that, now, trans communities are under attack 39 legislatively around bathroom and sort of protected spaces kinds of issues.  I hear stories from 40 all around the world about these struggles.  So theres this visibility around trans people and I 41 guess my question is what are thoughts about that?  Is that a good thing?  Is that more 1 challenging than its worth?  What do you think the impetus for that is?   2 
CT: I think . . . well, I think the visibility is amazing.  I think we need to be visible.   3 
AJ: Sure. 4 
CT: The world does not know that it needs trans people yet.  Were amazing.  When I go out and 5 speak about these issues, I always tell people . . . Im like there are trans people at the places 6 that you work, there are trans people serving you coffee, there are trans people cleaning your 7 car  were everywhere.  And so, the world has not yet figured out that it needs us to thrive, it 8 needs us to understand the diversity, the beauty of gender.   9 
AJ: And humanity, I would say. 10 
CT: And the humanity of gender and just the humanity of people.  I think that that visibility . . . the 11 evolution, the journey of visibility, it comes at a cost and we see it with every marginalized 12 group but trans people are at higher risk now in a lot of ways because of how visible we are.  I 13 think that that will . . . I know that that will change.  I know that there will be a day when we 14 arent living this sort of . . . living in fear, many of us are living in fear a lot  especially depending 15 on where you live in the world.  But I think . . . but yeah, I think that that visibility is necessary.  16 Its like we have to be bold and kind of push ourselves forward.  And the impetus behind all of it 17 I just think its incremental.  I dont know if we can pin it back to a particular point in time, but 18 everything is a ripple effect.  Its like Laverne Cox coming out and these legislative efforts, just 19 the more people that come out, the more people that are talking about trans issues, the more 20 laws we change, the more policies we change, the more advocacy that were creating  were 21 just going to see more trans people.  Even if were . . . we are creating a safer world for trans 22 people, slowly but surely  but like right now it doesnt feel so safe because of the anti-23 bathroom stuff, specifically, but for trans people that stuff is old news, that stuff is like . . . weve 24 been getting harassed and policed in bathrooms without your fucking laws. 25 
AJ: Exactly.  26 
CT: Its like . . . people are like, Were all on alert now.  Ive been on alert. 27 
AJ: Exactly.   28 
CT: Im ready  anytime Ive got to be, Im ready.  But yeah, I think that thats the cost but I do think 29 that theres . . . its a snowball effect.  More trans people coming out, more trans people 30 meeting other trans people  getting networks, stuff like this project, stuff like . . . whatever.  31 Trans 100 or MCTEs project, or anything that is happening  even a tiny little social group at an 32 LGBT Center, that stuff didnt exist when I was a young person and Im young.  You know  15 or 33 20 years ago, that was not a thing. 34 
AJ: Right, When I was your age.  Oh boy, wow.  What do you think the agenda for trans people 35 should be going forward, Crispin?   36 
CT: Trans people need to be bold, trans people are already bold.  Our agenda should be to continue 37 empowering ourselves and mentoring and trusting each other and not looking for help and 38 support from other people as the first option.  I think some of the best strategies that we have 39 right now are that trans, specifically trans people of color, I think, are working really hard to 1 build their own support system in a way that is above and beyond the white folks.  I think 2 theres a different sense of community amongst trans people of color.  I think theres a different 3 thirst and need to keep that family and to keep the trust  even when we hurt each other, 4 because we do.  I think that should be on our agenda.  The other thing on our agenda should be 5 to be more compassionate to each other as trans people.  I think our biggest challenge as trans 6 people in the movement, and just individually, is that we dont see each other and that we dont 7 forgive each other.  I think we . . . like I said, we hurt each other.  This movement work is messy, 8 its super personal, the stakes are really high, people are literally dying.  So its understandable 9 that we would get riled up and furious and alienate each other  and thats natural.  I think 10 thats political work, thats movement work, thats identity work, but I think we really need to 11 make space for each other, be compassionate, be forgiving, and be patient because were not 12 going to win all these fights, were not going to win them all today, were going to win them all 13 tomorrow.  We will win in the end, but were not going to do that unless we have each others 14 trust, unless we have each other in community.  For me, that would be number one on the 15 agenda. 16 
AJ: Wow.  Is there anything that you want to share that I didnt ask you about?   17 
CT: I would say that my hair has a huge amount to do with my trans identity.   18 
AJ: You know what?  Im looking at the camera and your hair looks amazing.   19 
CT: Thank you.   20 
AJ: I cant wait for you to see this video because your hair is just killing it, son.   21 
CT: Its like I started working on a pompadour, working on how to craft a pompadour, at the same 22 time I was like, Hmmm, something . . . I think I might be a little trans.   23 
AJ: Wow. 24 
CT: But I also just love talking about pompadours so . . . Im being a little facetious, but I also . . . 25 
AJ: Im thrilled to hear you talking about the pompadour.   26 
CT: Its transformative hair, its transformative hair. 27 
AJ: Wow, thank you so much for being willing to sit down and share so much of your personal story. 28 
CT: Totally. 29 
AJ: Your professional life  and the ways that youve been inspired and the ways that you inspire 30 others.  Its deeply appreciated.   31 
CT: Definitely  thank you.   32 
AJ: Until we meet again, my friend. 33 
CT: Yes.  Great. 34 

