 
 
 
 
Max Gries Narrator   Andrea Jenkins Interviewer 
    
The Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies University of Minnesota 
 October 28, 2016 
 
 
 

   
 
  
The Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story, while providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source material about the transgender community.  The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for current and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public. 
The Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300 individuals over the next three years.  Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and experiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality.  This project will be led by Andrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist.  Andrea brings years of experience working in government, non-profits and LGBT organizations.  If you are interested in being involved in this exciting project, please contact Andrea. 
Andrea Jenkins jenki120@umn.edu (612) 625-4379 
 
 
 
 
  
Andrea Jenkins  -AJ 1 
Max Gries  -MG 2 
 3 
 4 
AJ: So, hello.  My name is Andrea Jenkins and I am the oral historian for the Transgender Oral 5 History Project at the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  Today is October 28, 6 2016, and I am here today in North Minneapolis with Max Gries.  And I hope I pronounced your 7 name correctly, but you get a chance to correct me if Im wrong.  So how you doing today, Max? 8 
MG: Im doing pretty well, pretty well. 9 
AJ: Yeah, awesome.  Hey listen, Im going to ask you to spell your name  state your name, spell 10 your name, and state your gender identity today, whatever that is, your gender assigned at 11 birth, and the pronouns that you use. 12 
MG: All right.  My name is Max, M-a-x.  My middle name is Adrian, A-d-r-i-a-n, and my last name is 13 Gries, G-r-i-e-s.   14 
AJ: So I said it right. 15 
MG: Yes, you really did  really super close, better than most.  I am gender queer and I was assigned 16 female at birth, and I use the pronouns they, them and theirs, or Max.   17 
AJ: Wonderful.  Thank you so much, Max.  So one of the questions that I start out with is just simply 18 to kind of get us in the reminiscing sort of mindset and so the question is, tell me about your 19 very first memory in life?  What is the first thing you remember?   20 
MG: Thats a super hard one for me.  I dont have a lot of early memories.  Im just someone who 21 doesnt.  I just saw my cousin last week, I went down to southern Missouri, she lives in 22 Springfield, and she said, I have memories from about three, and I said, I really dont  until 23 maybe six.  But Ive been thinking about that and I was thinking about one memory I have . . . I 24 think I was about six and I was playing outside in the front yard of our house, and this was a 25 gender-related memory.  Its like my earliest one, kind of thing.  And someone who I didnt 26 know, I think they walked by or maybe even biked by or drove, but they looked at me and said 27 something to me and used a he or a him or boy  something like that, some gender identifier 28 that, at the time, felt wrong to me.  But I remember feeling really confused, really weird  29 surprised, confused.  I was a really shy kid, I was really painfully shy, actually, when I was little.  30 It was just an interesting feeling to me, and I didnt correct him  I didnt say anything back.  I 31 just was quiet.  But I remember that moment.  Most of my other memories from childhood, 32 from that age or younger, are from photos or stories.  And one of the reasons I think I dont 33 have a lot of young memories is that my parents divorced when I was five and I think that was 34 pretty traumatic for me.  They were both wonderful parents and wonderful people, I had an 35 older sister, but it was a hard time.  They went through a hard custody fight, trying to both get 36 custody of my sister and I, and that was tough. So I think that maybe Ive just blocked out a lot 37 of that time. 38 
AJ: Where did you grow up, Max? 39 
MG: I grew up in central Wisconsin.  I was born, actually, at home, out in the woods at our house.  1 We lived in a log home out in the woods.  We had an orchard and we had chickens and all of 2 this, a little bit of back to the land kind of thing. 3 
AJ: Were your parents hippies or . . .? 4 
MG: Yeah, you know, not really.  My mom kind of walks that line a little bit, my dad definitely no.  But 5 they loved . . .  6 
AJ: But they were rural folks, they kind of liked the outdoors. 7 
MG: Yeah, they did the whole chickens and my mom had a goat for a while  until it took a bite out of 8 our house, apparently . . . the siding and she said, OK, no more goat.  But yeah, and then after 9 they divorced we left that house, of course, and so the story that I started with was from a 10 different house.  But it was in a small town in central Wisconsin called Medford, a town of about 11 4000.  Very, very middle America, small town, almost entirely white and very homogeneous, 12 pretty conservative and all that good stuff. 13 
AJ: Did you go to grade school in Medford? 14 
MG: I did, I went all the way through  kindergarten through high school in the town of Medford. 15 
AJ: Is that right?  Wow.  What was school like?  And let me contextualize it a little bit because you 16 were five or six and somebody sort of identified you as . . . 17 
MG: As a boy, yeah. 18 
AJ: As a male, as a little boy. And so, Im just speculating that if one person sort of made that 19 determination, whether they were right or wrong, that maybe other people may have.  So what 20 was school like? 21 
MG: I dont know, I dont remember that other people did.  When I was young, I think it was a real 22 combination of I was, of course, this shy little girl and I was very much wanted to, and taught to, 23 please everybody.  So, of course, when that happened to me, I think part of my response was, 24 Oh, I better be more feminine, I better behave.  That kind of thing. 25 
AJ: Conform. 26 
MG: A little bit of that  conform, yeah.  A little bit of that went on.  But I wasnt overly feminine.  I 27 didnt love wearing dresses, I wasnt really drawn to that.  But I would when I was expected to or 28 whatever. 29 
AJ: For those occasions  Easter or church, yeah. 30 
MG: And all the way through, thats true for me all the way through high school and even a little bit 31 beyond, actually.  I can talk about that later, but grade school, for me, being such a shy kid and 32 having gone through that kind of young trauma of that divorce, I was really emotional.  I 33 remember that distinctly.  When I was in elementary school and we would be in gym class, I 34 would just break out in tears  pretty frequently I would cry.  I think it was insecurity or fear that 35 I wouldnt be able to do something as well as I should or something.  So I was definitely kind of 36 an academic achiever and tried to excel and all that stuff, but physicality was always a challenge 37 
for me. I was always a big kid, kind of a fat kid, and that was tough.  I was so introverted and so 1 modest and so . . . just kind of scared, I think a lot. I kind of went through that.  My mom got 2 custody, by the way, of my sister and I and so I lived full-time with my mom and then, of course, 3 my dad had the visitation rights.  He stayed in the area so we saw him a lot. 4 
AJ: Cool. 5 
MG: What I think happened to me then, as I grew up  in junior high especially . . . 7th grade, 8th 6 grade, and then into high school, I really learned from my mom how to do social networking, 7 before the days of our social networks that we have now.  But I learned from her how to be an 8 extrovert, a learned extrovert  how to make friends and really build relationships and 9 connections, and how to be a leader of it.  So she, at that time in my life, she taught piano 10 lessons and she had like 45 students every week or something, it was a lot. She was just an 11 extrovert naturally so she was out doing everything in the town and everyone knew her.  So I 12 think I really learned from her how to do that and the benefits of doing that and what you gain 13 and how important that was.   14 
AJ: Cool. 15 
MG: So I was kind of a geek too when I was growing up.  I was definitely with the smart kid geeks, but 16 I was a music geek from a pretty young age because my mom taught piano.  Piano kind of 17 became my life in junior high and high school  music and piano.  I thought that was going to be 18 my whole life, I really did.  And in some ways it has, its remained.  Ive taught piano all of my life 19 actually, part-time. 20 
AJ: Do you perform? 21 
MG: Not really anymore.  I used to a little bit.  Once in a while I would kind of do a couple of pieces in 22 front of people, but now the extent of it is here in my house I have six piano students right now, 23 and I hold little recitals for them twice a year.  I always make a point to play a piece at the end of 24 my recitals for them.  And then actually Im doing a volunteer thing, which you could call 25 performing I suppose, and I just did it this morning.  Every Friday morning, I go down to Whittier 26 International Elementary School.  They have a beautiful grand piano in a big atrium space and as 27 kids come in in the morning, and as they leave in the afternoon, different volunteers sit and play 28 piano for a half hour. 29 
AJ: Is that right? 30 
MG: Its really cool.  Its a really fun thing. 31 
AJ: A resource for the young people. 32 
MG: It is, yeah. 33 
AJ: To help them appreciate art and music. 34 
MG: Yeah, it is a really . . .  35 
AJ: Calms them down, I suspect, a little bit  we hope. 36 
MG: I havent really seen that happen much, but its fun and they do love to talk to me and, of 1 course, they want to play.  But I really enjoy that. 2 
AJ: Cool.  You talked about music and that jumped a little off track, but well move all around. 3 
MG: Im sure, thats going to keep happening. 4 
AJ: No, I certainly initiated that detour.  So bullying wasnt really a big challenge for you as a kid. 5 
MG: It wasnt.  The way that I was . . . I guess I would call it bullying but it wasnt ever really intense 6 bullying, it was kind of more brutal harassment.  I was never physically bullied or harassed, but it 7 was about being fat  it was about being a fat girl, and that was definitely hard. 8 
AJ: Body shaming and . . . 9 
MG: Body shaming, I was called names by other kids  mostly boys.  And that was tough.  That, I think 10 kept my shy and introverted and quiet.  I kind of ran and hid, I had . . . yeah, I definitely 11 remember that.  And, maybe the tears that I so frequently would have kind of come out of some 12 of that  fear or whatever, but . . .  13 
AJ: But no gender related . . . 14 
MG: No, not really.  Like I said I really did conform to what was expected of me as a kid. 15 
AJ: When did you first realize that you may not be the gender you were assigned at birth? 16 
MG: This is such an interesting question.  I honestly dont think about it a whole lot, but Ive kind of 17 been giving that a little thought.  When I left my home town, which was a pretty big deal, not 18 even of my high school class certain few of us would actually leave and escape, that kind of 19 thing.  I went to Oberlin for music, for piano, Oberlin Conservatory.   20 
AJ: Is that in . . . Ohio? 21 
MG: Ohio, yeah.  Its close to Cleveland.  Another small town, but close enough to Cleveland to get 22 there sometimes.  Anyway, once I landed at Oberlin I felt, of course, this freedom that so many 23 college kids feel, but then I really, really quickly started to explore my identity and especially my 24 sexuality.   25 
AJ: OK. 26 
MG: I had been a pretty protected, sheltered kid and had not really explored relationships or dating 27 or sex as a young person, I was kind of late to that.  So, at Oberlin that was a big thing for me 28 and then I came out as bisexual, probably within . . . I dont know, the first year. 29 
AJ: Wow. 30 
MG: And actually I only stayed there for two years.  But those years were 1991-1993, so that last 31 spring that I was there, I went to the March on Washington in 1993 with some friends. 32 
AJ: Really?  The LGBT March on Washington. 33 
MG: Yeah, the LGBT March on Washington in 1993. 34 
AJ: Is that right? 1 
MG: And whats so funny . . . 2 
AJ: As a college student? 3 
MG: As a college student, as an Oberlin student, and we were going to go and be part of the bi 4 contingent and I was excited and we got to the March and we found them and kind of walked 5 around.  I was hanging out with this young woman who Id just been starting to sort of date, 6 actually it kind of even happened on the trip, which was fun.  But she knew Washington, DC 7 really well and she was like, You know, this is probably not going to start for hours, lets just go 8 explore.   9 
AJ: OK. 10 
MG: So we took off and she took me on the train and we went to the Bookstore and everything.  We 11 ended up missing the entire March. 12 
AJ: Is that right? 13 
MG: It was fun though, it was really fun.  And what was fun, I remember being on the train and just 14 seeing queers everywhere  really out, and it was just a beautiful feeling, it was just a really 15 great feeling.  But, of course, at Oberlin, you can imagine, students were really exploring in ways 16 that were pushing the envelope for 1992-1993, and that was exciting, so I was kind of part of 17 some of that.  So that was where I started to question sexuality and really explore and identify 18 as bisexual.  And even in those early couple of years around sexuality, I started to think about 19 gender a lot and wonder if . . . but I also didnt see that as part of my identity, as being 20 transgender or gender queer then.  It was not . . . but I recognized, certainly, the ways that those 21 kind of started to interweave and overlap and especially the ways that people were targeted, 22 supposedly for their sexuality but it was all about gender expression  it was all about gender 23 expression. 24 
AJ: Right  I love that youre saying this.  Say more. 25 
MG: Totally.  Well, what was happening at that time, of course, was all the organizations were LG, 26 just lesbian and gay  gay and lesbian.  And I know that originally it was all gay, so the lesbians 27 even at first were the ones who, I think before that time  maybe in the 1980s, were fighting to 28 get lesbian included in the names of organizations.  So the years that I ended up really entering, 29 and well get into this, but getting more activist and community building were in the 1990s, mid-30 1990s to late 1990s, and that was when we were really working on adding the B and the T to 31 organization names and missions and it was tough.  Part of it was this argument that people are 32 discriminated against not because theyre seen kissing their boyfriend but because theyre 33 effeminate  if theyre gay men.  And so thats about gender.   34 
AJ: Or butch women. 35 
MG: Or butch women  the opposite, absolutely.  Yeah, for sure.  And so that was definitely 36 something that I both experienced eventually but also really talked about a lot with friends and 37 with people as I organized.   38 
AJ: Yeah, so sort of the mid-1990s.  About how old do you think you were? 1 
MG: Well, lets see . . . let me think for a minute.  So I would have been in my early 20s, right?  I went 2 to Oberlin just for two years and I realized I didnt know what I wanted to do, or be.  And so I left 3 and I thought, OK, Ill take a break, maybe a half year, maybe a year, and Ill go back.  Well I 4 never went back, it just wasnt in the cards for me.  What I did was, I moved here.   5 
AJ: To Minneapolis? 6 
MG: Yeah, to Minneapolis.  Growing up I had been in Wisconsin and we would come over to 7 Minneapolis to do arts and cultural things.  I had a funny French teacher who would drive us 8 over here and take us to plays and take us shopping and to the art museums, and so I knew a 9 little bit about Minneapolis.  We would come over when we needed to shop, or whatever.  So, I 10 thought you know, thats where I want to go.  And then I had a really cool experience, actually, 11 heres a really fun story from Oberlin.  I realized in my second year that I wasnt . . . I wasnt sure 12 what I wanted to do, so I started to look at womens studies and then I looked at all the ExCo 13 classes, so ExCo is Experimental College, and they had a really strong ExCo Program there that 14 was very well loved by the students and what it was was anyone, any undergrad student  there 15 were some grad students but mostly undergrad there, but anyone from the town, any faculty, 16 could teach an Experimental College class and then anyone could take them.  So one semester I 17 took like seven  I took barely any regular credits and I took like seven. 18 
AJ: You dont get credit for these ExCo classes? 19 
MG: You do, a little bit  theres a limit, but you could.  So I did get some credit.  One of the classes I 20 took was Anarchism and Feminism. 21 
AJ: Whoa. 22 
MG: And then a couple of the others:  Queer Womens Sexuality, and they used the word queer 23 which was . . . 24 
AJ: Thats kind of interesting in that day and age. 25 
MG: Really interesting.  And then Womens Spirituality because I was starting to explore paganism.  26 And then . . . I remember Lesbian Novel or something like that.  I took the class and we read a 27 bunch of really great novels.  So it was the first one, the Feminism and Anarchism that we did a 28 road trip.  In May, we drove from Oberlin, Ohio to Minneapolis and we came to an Anarchy 29 Conference. 30 
AJ: That is an oxymoron in and of itself. 31 
MG: I know, I think that was also 1993, I think I did all of this in the spring of 1993.  But we came to 32 the May Day Festival and I got to experience the May Day Festival, and here I am  not just 33 coming out as bi but budding pagan and just exploring all these different things about myself 34 and about the world. 35 
AJ: Taking an anarchy class. 36 
MG: Going to the Anarchy Conference.  There was a very strong anarchy community here in the Twin 37 Cities at that time.  I dont think it exists that way anymore and hasnt for a long time.  Right 38 around the May Day Caf, I think right across the street from there, was the Emma Center.  1 Have you ever heard of the Emma Center?  But the Emma Center was named after Emma 2 Goldman and it was like in a center for the anarchy community. 3 
AJ: Oh wow, OK. 4 
MG: And they used to host like punk and grunge bands in the basement and stuff.   5 
AJ: Ive never heard of this place. 6 
MG: I didnt hang out there or anything, but when we visited here we went there and saw it and folks 7 we were kind of doing this conference with were part of that.  So, the May Day just blew my 8 mind.  I was so excited to be at May Day.  Id never been before, never heard of it.  And we 9 actually walked in the parade, in the final section . . . what do they call that?  The Open Section, 10 anybody can do it.  We were part of this group with the anarchists doing some street theatre, 11 raising awareness and kind of talking about someone who was wrongly imprisoned, I cant 12 remember the details now but I was handing out flyers to everybody and doing that thing right 13 away and just jumping in.  And then after we got to the park I walked around the whole park 14 and one of the booths, one of the places that had a little table with literature, was this group 15 called Bi Women and Friends. 16 
AJ: Right. 17 
MG: And at the time, I definitely identified as a bi woman.  I thought, Huh, I want to be part of this 18 sometime.   19 
AJ: Wow. 20 
MG: You know, this is something I think would be really great.  So I picked up all this literature and I 21 was so excited, and I noticed that they were doing a trip . . . some of them were going to the 22 Michigan Womens Music Festival.  Anyway, that was the spring I decided to take a break from 23 Oberlin.  I moved here that summer, like July, and just dove right in.  I joined Bi Women and 24 Friends, I did go to the Michigan Womens Music Festival in August, I ended up going there three 25 years, and . . . 26 
AJ: We wont hold that against you. 27 
MG: I know, right.  And I did immediately, actually  just a little aside about Michigan.  So 1993, 1994, 28 1995, I cant remember exactly the years and then I took a few years off, but even for my very 29 first year I held workshops like just spontaneous or planned that were about being bi at 30 Michigan because everyone had talked about being lesbian.  So I was always trying to push that.  31 And then later, Ill talk more about this, but the story is the last year I went, no  the second to 32 last year I went, in 1997, is when I met my sweetheart, my husband now.  In 1997 . . . what was I 33 going to say? 34 
AJ: At Michigan? 35 
MG: At the Michigan Womens Music Festival, yes.  Ill talk more about that.  So I moved here, joined 36 Bi Women and Friends, I got really involved right away in the BECAUSE Conference. 37 
AJ: Yeah, I remember you being involved. 38 
MG: That was probably my earliest, you know, really lot of work. I was just really involved in the bi 1 community.  We were doing a lot of neat stuff, there was a cabaret that was happening every 2 couple months and there were lots of fun . . . really fun things, fun community building things.  3 In 1995, I remember with the BECAUSE Conference, I was one of the co-chairs maybe or 4 something, and we really fought . . . the whole committee, we decided, after a lot of convincing 5 with some folks, to go to a sliding scale that started at zero and that was a big deal to make that 6 conference free essentially for those who needed it.  And it was successful. 7 
AJ: Now I think its . . .  8 
MG: I think it always is . . . 9 
AJ: Its all free, right? 10 
MG: I think theres a registration scale but again it probably starts at zero or something like that.  Its 11 definitely affordable.  So yeah, that was the early days of the BECAUSE Conference.  And, I was 12 also doing pagan stuff here in the Twin Cities at that time.  Whats ironic is, of course Id gone to 13 Michigan, it was early 1990s and I had not, in my own mind, even kind of . . . whats the good 14 academic word?  Problematized, right?  The gender biology questions and so, you know, I was at 15 Michigan and I remembered my first year at Michigan, being so young, walking around alone 16 and finding a little table that was set up kind of in the bushes almost.  It was about trans women 17 being at Michigan, at the Womens Music Festival.  And I remember not even . . . feeling so 18 nervous and not even meeting the persons eyes who was behind that table.  I didnt 19 understand it really but I knew the right thing to do was to sign the petition, and I did that.   20 
AJ: To allow? 21 
MG: Yes. 22 
AJ: OK. 23 
MG: To allow trans women at Michigan. 24 
AJ: Because lets just state that because people who may watch this may not know. 25 
MG: Right. 26 
AJ: There was sort of a ban or an exclusion of women . . . 27 
MG: And the phrase was, Women born women only, could come to Michigan, which was ridiculous 28 and what does that even mean?  But yeah, there was an exclusion on really any trans people but 29 what was so maddening, I guess, is that they would allow women who were trans, who were 30 trans men essentially, if they passed or they could pass or they might be in the middle a little bit. 31 
AJ: But thats sort of de-affirming of trans male identity. 32 
MG: Very much  yeah. 33 
AJ: Because its saying, Yeah, we know you say youre a man but youre really a woman so you can 34 come to our women-only party. 35 
MG: I know.  It was . . . yeah, and then it became hugely political all through the 1990s and 2000s and 1 now its over, the festival . . .  2 
AJ: Yeah, the festival ended  what?  Two years ago now, is it? 3 
MG: Yeah, a year or two  yeah.  So the years I did go, I definitely pushed the envelope and had these 4 questions and conversations.   5 
AJ: Did bi women begin to feel more included at those conferences, do you think? 6 
MG: Yeah, I think through the 1990s. 7 
AJ: Or not conferences, festivals actually. 8 
MG: Yeah, I think through the 1990s, some.  But there was just so much, when I look back on it  its 9 a little bit . . . I dont know, for me personally its a little bit disconcerting.  So much emphasis on 10 lesbian and women loving women and there was just . . . it was just very . . . and in a way it was 11 very empowering, I know, for thousands and thousands of people.  But the last couple years I 12 did go, I, again, led a couple of workshops that were kind of being other at Michigan or on 13 gender bending.  And met Tyler, and then of course I also ended up kind of finding the other, 14 kind of, freaks, if you will  in a good way.  All those other folks  you know, theres a place there 15 where you can camp called The Twilight Zone.  I dont know if you know all of this. 16 
AJ: Ive never been to the Michigan Womens Festival. 17 
MG: Well The Twilight Zone is more for super sex positive BDSM kind of . . . anyone who doesnt . . . 18 and a lot of trans folks ended up hanging out in The Twilight Zone if they went. 19 
AJ: OK. 20 
MG: Because there were, of course, trans people there all the time. 21 
AJ: Really? 22 
MG: Every year  oh yeah.  They were just hidden, didnt talk, didnt end up in the public spaces so 23 much. 24 
AJ: Or didnt self-identify as . . . yeah. 25 
MG: Anyway, yeah  thats the . . . but yeah, Tyler and I met at Michigan.  Hes my sweetheart. 26 
AJ: Wow.  So, you guys both met at Michigan and at the time were you both identifying as women?  27 Bi women?   28 
MG: We were.  I dont think that Tyler would have used the word bi but I definitely did.  But yeah, he 29 really identified more with the word butch at the time, as a butch woman.  But, in 1997, when 30 we met, we met because we were both at a huge workshop on polyamory and I stood up at the 31 very end and said, Im about to lead a discussion on gender bending over across the path, come 32 join me if you want.  And so, only four of us were there  me and Tyler and two others.  And we 33 just clicked and connected right away and had this great conversation.  It turns out he was 34 definitely questioning his gender at that time.  So then as he, and I was already . . . one of the 35 identities I claimed around that time, before that  1994, 1995, was daddy, a leather daddy.  I 36 was definitely in the leather community, BDSM.  I remember going to a conference around that 1 time and kind of having a conversation about this and I remember saying the words, To me, 2 being a daddy is like its own gender. 3 
AJ: Wow. 4 
MG: Yeah.  And that was kind of a neat . . . because there was a whole phenomenon at that time of 5 dyke daddies, exploring that around sexuality.  And so that was a really interesting thing.  And 6 then a lot of the lesbian avengers, at least locally, a number of them ended up transitioning and 7 becoming trans men. 8 
AJ: Is that right?  I did not know that. 9 
MG: Yeah, youll have to interview one or two of them.  And that was the truth across the country 10 too, a lot of butch women ended up coming out in the 1990s as trans men and then 11 transitioning.  That was a tough thing, I remember, in the queer womens community and the 12 queer community in general.  Some people felt that as a betrayal and as a . . . you know, what is 13 your true identity?  Youre giving up this butch identity, why cant you just live in the world as a 14 butch woman.   15 
AJ: Right, going to the dark side. 16 
MG: Well, and thats true. 17 
AJ: Right, I mean. 18 
MG: Going to privilege, for sure  right?  Thats intense. 19 
AJ: Feminism, which is sort of all wrapped up into lesbian identity in many ways, really sort of was 20 heavy critique on male identity at that point in time  rightfully so. 21 
MG: Oh yeah.  So I didnt even consider my own gender identity in any kind of terms of being publicly 22 out about being a daddy or any of that.  But I definitely started to date trans people then  in 23 the late 1990s . . . well, in 1997, when I met Tyler.  He was just coming out, early stages then, 24 and I had been dating a trans man back at home.  So that was when I started to really . . . and I 25 had had, of course, I remember moments when I was incredibly transphobic around . . . like 26 especially those early 1990s with the bi community.  I remember a conversation at a BECAUSE 27 Conference about womens sexuality and we wanted it to be women only and boy did that ever 28 . . . so my eyes were certainly . . . I learned a lot of lessons. 29 
AJ: Wow. 30 
MG: So Tyler, we met and he was living in Canada, hes Canadian.  31 
AJ: Makes sense that he actually lived in Canada. 32 
MG: But we were long distance for a little while and pretty soon decided I wanted to move to 33 Syracuse, New York because he lived about two hours north of Syracuse.  I moved across 34 country, he flew out here and helped me, and he would come down to Syracuse every weekend 35 and we would stay together.  And it was that time in 1998-99, for about a year, when he was 36 transitioning.  He used to have a lot of hair, you would never know it to look at him now, but he 37 had beautiful long hair and kept it back in a ponytail.  I remember it was a big deal at the time 1 when he cut his hair.  So I went through all of his transition with him, so I really developed a 2 strong sense of identity as a partner of a trans person.  So I went through that kind of as a 3 journey, being on panels, talking about that experience of being a partner of a trans person. 4 
AJ: I think that may have been when I first met you. 5 
MG: Yeah, because when I first moved back here with Tyler . . .  6 
AJ: As a partner of a trans person. 7 
MG: Yeah, thats right. 8 
AJ: And you guys were on a panel at the All-Gender Health Seminars. 9 
MG: Right, yeah, that was really my identity within the community, the trans community, for years.  10 And then as he continued to transition and as I kind of explored what that meant for me, I 11 realized that I was drawn to presenting myself more and more masculine  but not as a man.  So 12 I really struggled for a while and there was a time there where, in a way  kind of similar to bi 13 identity and not fitting in the queer community as well, youre always looking for validation, I 14 realized pretty early . . . I mean, through this process, that I was gender queer and I was afraid 15 because that didnt fit, at the time anyway, very well in the trans community and still, to some 16 extent, doesnt.  One example is the group that Tyler kind of helped to start along with a couple 17 of other guys, was called T-Men. 18 
AJ: T-Man? 19 
MG: T-Men. 20 
AJ: T-Men. 21 
MG T-M-e-n, yeah.  And there was a list serv email list that still exists but is very . . . nothing is ever 22 sent on it anymore, MN Boyz  with a z, B-o-y-z.  And . . .  23 
AJ: Has that sort of taken over T-Men? 24 
MG: Both of those groups are dormant.  Theres a website presence maybe or that email list is still 25 there, but yeah . . . 26 
AJ: But not a lot of activity? 27 
MG: Not active, no.  But I was anxious to go to T-Men groups, even though in the formation they 28 were careful to say, This group is for anyone who was labeled female at birth for whom that no 29 longer fits.  So it was pretty . . .  30 
AJ: So it wasnt like you had to be . . . 31 
MG: A trans man. 32 
AJ: A trans man, yeah. 33 
MG: But what I noticed and, of course, this was talked about by some guys is if we were to go out 1 socially and I, for instance, wasnt passing as a man, when they were all trying to desperately . . . 2 my very presence, my visible presence, would detract from their passing. 3 
AJ: Undermine . . .  4 
MG: Because the server might see me and say and think, Oh, I ladies, or, Hi, gals.  Whatever it 5 was, assuming because they didnt pass very well yet.  I remember that and I remember a few 6 folks feeling like, Find your own space, dont compromise ours, that kind of thing.  And that 7 was sort of a recurring theme for me through the 1990s as I kind of came out and explored all 8 this.  So . . .  9 
AJ: So internalized transphobia is what that sounds like. 10 
MG: Yeah, for sure. 11 
AJ: Its not a judgment, its just . . . because I certainly have felt that way as the person who was not 12 passing very well with other friends who were beautiful and gorgeous and they would sort of 13 walk ahead of me.  I could just feel that tension of . . . you know, not passing. 14 
MG: Yeah, and theres this sense of not being trans enough.  That was a really strong feeling through 15 part of the 1990s.  I really, from all the experiences that Id had leading up to that point, I was 16 pretty fierce.  I was not afraid to talk to people about that and to confront it and to really . . . the 17 way I chose, and I talked about this already, my mom taught me how to do this social kind of 18 thing and so I started to do that, and what I really see all of my years of activism then, from 19 those 1990s into the 2000s, probably . . . I sort of kind of went on a break right about 2012, 20 2013, and have been since then mostly.  I say that and then I think, Oh, Ive done that and then 21 that, but I did a lot in the 2000s and well get to that.  But what I was going to say about that . . 22 . what was I leading into?  Oh, community building  that that was my primary thing.  I want to 23 build community because I know there are a lot of other folks out there who are like me, who 24 are gender queer or who are questioning or who dont feel trans enough or who are isolated.   25 
AJ: Yeah. 26 
MG: There are a lot, still, a lot of folks that feel isolation, I think.  And thats just an ongoing struggle 27 for us. 28 
AJ: You have been in the forefront, leadership, the visionaries for a number of trans identified 29 community building activities, groups.  Lets do a list of some of those. 30 
MG: OK.  Its hard for me to even kind of remember everything because the last couple years of my 31 life have taken a different direction.  But if we go back to those early 2000s when I moved here.  32 So T-Men, and then I came out really to myself and changed my name legally to Max Adrian.  33 And then I went to an event, and this event just came up  I just saw a presentation by Phil 34 Duran the other day at Capella, where I work now.  And, he brought up the Julie Goins case, this 35 case against . . . the Minnesota Supreme Court, Goins against West Group where she worked, 36 and it was around bathrooms.  There was a big community forum after the decision which was 37 against Julie, unfortunately.  It was for West Group, they could tell her what bathroom to use, 38 which just felt so ludicrous and unfair and awful.  And so, of course, the whole community was 39 just really frustrated by this and wanted to know and understand what had happened.  So I 1 remember we were at the Old Spirit of the Lakes Church, I believe, and I was amazed to show up 2 at that thing and see so many people.  I thought, There are hundreds of people here, not 3 everyone is trans identified, but we have a huge community. 4 
AJ: Right. 5 
MG: And I had started to kind of meet people and learn who was who and what was where and what 6 organizations existed, and I knew there were a couple of groups for trans women or cross 7 dressers . . .  8 
AJ: Cross dressers mostly, yeah. 9 
MG: Mostly cross dressers at that time.  And then, of course, T-Men was just new and getting started 10 and, you know, there was just a little bit happening.  But I thought, Gosh, there is so many 11 people out there who need community.  And then we actually hung out, I remember later, with 12 Julie Goins and another friend and I, and a couple of us  four of us, got together and we started 13 Gender Blur. 14 
AJ: Gender Blur. 15 
MG: Gender Blur, in 2002, that started.  I was involved in Gender Blur at the beginning, of course, 16 informing it and kind of coming up with that name, which was really fun, for about four years.  I 17 think it was in 2006, when I really withdrew, and then it continued for a couple more years after 18 that. 19 
AJ: Did it, after that? 20 
MG: Yeah, as the Gender Blur Collective, and they did a couple of events and they did a lot of really 21 great work. 22 
AJ: But it wasnt that monthly . . .  23 
MG: No. 24 
AJ: Because there was a time when Gender Blur was like a monthly gathering, wasnt it? 25 
MG: Yeah, it was.  And actually I just came across the old website, it was archived.  And that was fun, 26 because we did create a website  Tyler, my sweetie, is a techie and so he would always help us 27 with the websites and creating a presence online.   28 
AJ: Sure. 29 
MG: It did happen every other month for a while, that was our schedule.  It was awesome. 30 
AJ: It was a beautiful thing.  I performed a number of times at Gender Blur.   31 
MG: For sure.  That first one we organized, I think it might have happened in March, and we thought, 32 Yeah, maybe well get 100 people there. And we designed it to be community building as 33 much as we could but also performance, kind of a chance for people to kind of watch and do in a 34 cabaret-type variety show.  We thought maybe wed get 100 people, that would be awesome.  35 And we put our all into planning it all out and Patricks Cabaret at the time, Sarah Harris was 36 leading Patricks Cabaret, and let us use the space for . . . maybe paying afterwards or 1 something, and we thought, Well, maybe well break even, and well see what happens.  So 2 we got over 300 people and it was amazing. 3 
AJ: Wow. 4 
MG: And people loved it and really responded.  And so, we had tried to do the nice thing of just pay 5 what you can and we had a can with a slit in the top and we had rinsed it out, so it was wet.  So 6 people are sticking bills in that all night, small bills - $1s and $5s.  So Tyler and I, of course, at 7 the end of the night end up taking this can home and we ended up spreading this money all over 8 our house at the time because it had to dry.  It looked so funny  we were laundering money.  It 9 was the funniest thing. 10 
AJ: The money launderers. 11 
MG: It was really funny.  But we, of course, broke even. We paid all of our expenses and then some, 12 we had enough to do another one.   13 
AJ: Oh wow. 14 
MG: So we talked as a small group and just decided to keep doing it.  One of the things we would do 15 is rotate, or seek out people in the community, to curate  to come up with, Whats the show 16 going to be?  Whos going to be in it?  It was great, it was really a fun . . . I remember one, I 17 think it was in July, that we had all the pretty horses coming to perform, which was so exciting.  18 But it had to have been like 95 or 98 degrees inside Patricks Cabaret that night.  I was so afraid 19 someone was going to pass out. 20 
AJ: Was that when they did the fire and stuff  and all of that too? 21 
MG: Yeah.  It was amazing. 22 
AJ: DJ Blowtorch or . . . actually, it was just Blowtorch at the time. 23 
MG: At the time, yeah.   And Venus and the whole group  Jendeen was in it.  It was amazing.  Yeah.  24 So Gender Blur was really . . . thats one of the things that Im the very most proud of. 25 
AJ: Ive always thought of Gender Blur as sort of a continuation of Vulva Riot.  Am I . . .?   26 
MG: Oh interesting. 27 
AJ: Because so many of you guys worked on Vulva Riot. 28 
MG: Not too much, actually.  A couple of us had been peripherally, I would say, involved in Vulva Riot 29 but not really in the . . . Vulva Riot was still happening at the time, and then it shifted into a 30 different name.  Eleanor kind of moved away from it and handed it over to someone else, Sam.  31 Sam changed the name . . . I cant remember what it was then, but anyway it was still happening 32  I think, or it was ending around that same time.  It was modeled on that, kind of . . . kind of.  33 We did try to do community kind of interaction pieces  like we tried to have a meal sometimes 34 before the show, we tried to have a dance after the show, we did some weird . . . we even had 35 kind of almost a circus . . . what did we call that in the parking lot?  Remember we got a dunk 36 tank and we did a couple of fun things . . . it was fun.   37 
AJ: OK.   1 
MG: So, yeah  it was a lot like Vulva Riot.  2 
AJ: So, you said you were really proud of that, as you should be, but you were a part of the initiation 3 of the Minnesota Trans Health Coalition as well. 4 
MG: Well yeah, not necessarily initiation but really the formation of it as a non-profit, which felt like 5 a really big deal at the time.  There were no . . .  6 
AJ: Because it is a really big deal. 7 
MG: It is a really big deal, right.  But at the time there were no trans-specific community groups that 8 were actually formed as non-profits.  They were all small, grass roots efforts which, in some 9 ways, especially now I look back and think that was maybe better, but part of it was about 10 sustainability and then even when we formed as a non-profit, we always  when I was involved 11 anyway, had challenges because, at the time anyway, the way I looked at it is that a lot of us 12 were in fluctuation in our lives.  We had, to some extent or another, turmoil or tumult in our 13 lives that made it hard to really be consistent and be able to show up.  And, I was co-chair of 14 that board when we formed and then stayed co-chair for a number of years  that was Id say 15 maybe 2004 or 2005 through maybe 2010, something like that.  One of the things we really did 16 was talk a lot about community building and what people needed around health care and health 17 needs.  So what we did is we decided to have a health fair and we started to plan it and then 18 someone was like, Well, we should have workshops, and then, We should have a keynote.  19 Maybe we should do this.  Im like, Wait a minute, this is no longer a fair. Thats where you 20 just have some tables and people walk around and talk, this is a conference.   21 
AJ: This is a conference. 22 
MG: So we did, we planned the first health conference and I honestly cant remember the year  was 23 it 2005?  Was it 2006?  I dont remember.  But those few of us who really had formed that 24 board, did that original planning for that first conference.   25 
AJ: And it was at Metropolitan State University? 26 
MG: It was at South High. 27 
AJ: It was at South High  yes. 28 
MG: Yeah, and we held it at South a couple of years.  It was good, it was good there.  We were going 29 to try to do it at one of the park and rec buildings . . .  30 
AJ: Which it did happen at a park and rec building one year, right across the street from my house, 31 in fact  Phelps Park.  32 
MG: Phelps, OK  yeah. I forget where we held it each year.  Anyway, but yeah, South was a good 33 location for us for a couple of years and then later I think it moved to college campuses.  Those 34 first three health conferences, maybe four, were really a big wonderful thing.  After the first . . . 35 like two years, I think, then we started something called Provider Day where we really recruited 36 a lot of local doctors and students of different health care professions, to come and to learn 37 from each other, or to just learn from experts that we brought in, how to do trans health care, 1 how to really make it accessible. 2 
AJ: That was a great service, I think, for the community and for the professionals who participated, 3 but there was also a real focus on creating a resource list for what providers were trans friendly, 4 right?   5 
MG: Totally.  That might have been around that same time too.  We recognized that need, that 6 would be the most common question, for instance, on these community email lists, Who 7 should I go to as a doctor who will give me hormones?   8 
AJ: Right.   9 
MG: And so we figured out a way to do it and we sent people kind of a questionnaire or had them 10 sign something that the doctors would . . . and then wed put their names on our website under 11 provider directory.  That early provider directory lived on for many, many years, and then I think 12 just in the last two years maybe, or so, is it the Rainbow Health . . . or Rainbow . . . 13 
AJ: Rainbow Health. 14 
MG: Yeah, Rainbow Health Initiative teamed up with . . .  15 
AJ: RHI. 16 
MG: RHI, right, teamed up with Minnesota Health Coalition to create a new provider directory thats . 17 . .  18 
AJ: More comprehensive and . . . 19 
MG: Yeah, its really nice.  But yeah, for many years I tried to maintain that online provider directory 20 for the Trans Health Coalition. 21 
AJ: One of the beautiful things about the Minnesota Trans Health Coalition, it literally is one of two 22 organizations in the Twin Cities that has the word Trans in it.   23 
MG: Yeah. 24 
AJ: Thats huge. 25 
MG: Yeah  boy at the time we formed it sure felt huge.  It did.  And it was a little scary.  In those first 26 years we really focused a lot on just reaching the community, finding out what people needed, 27 doing assessments at Pride  we had a survey.  And then, we started the conferences and then I 28 think we were doing really well, a year or two later, and we were approached by the folks doing 29 the Shot Clinic and they said, We really need some help, some funding, sponsorship, and we 30 had, of course, our primary funder . . . money had been coming either through individuals in the 31 community of from PFund, an organization I got much more involved in a little later.  But even 32 from the 1990s, I had been writing grants to PFund from the BECAUSE Conference, Bi Women 33 and Friends, and different efforts.  So . . .  34 
AJ: You had developed the relationship. 35 
MG: We definitely had a strong relationship with PFund and that organization still does, I believe.  I 1 dont remember where I was going . . . but anyway, thats OK.  Oh, the Shot Clinic  yeah, the 2 Shot Clinic started and then services suddenly were a big piece of the organization.  Right after 3 that happened, the Trans Health . . . that was about when I stepped away from the organization, 4 and I had been on the board, co-chair of the board, for way long enough, and one of the reasons 5 I stepped down, I, as a leader, around that time was really noticing that even though sometimes 6 it felt like if you didnt do it, it wouldnt get done, or there wasnt anyone else to do it.  What I 7 noticed is that there were actually more and more people who wanted to be involved, who 8 wanted to do leadership, who wanted to step in  and I was also becoming more and more 9 aware of my own privilege and noticing that phenomenon that, of course, is so insidious and 10 hard to kind of navigate which is that those of us with more privilege, so I certainly had white 11 privilege and class privilege and sometimes male passing privilege, although not as much at the 12 time.  But, I had more time, I had more resources.  I could show up and I could do the work and I 13 had the time.  So I recognized that and I just knew that Id been in that role for way long enough.  14 I had left Gender Blur in kind of a similar reasoning for myself and then leaving Trans Health 15 Coalition was sort of just one more thing.  It has gone on, of course, and still is so successful and 16 doing wonderful, wonderful things.   17 
AJ: Yeah.  And then you were involved in the initiation and, correct me if Im wrong, of the Trans 18 Commission at the University of Minnesota. 19 
MG: Right.  Well I worked there, I worked at the U for many years in different roles  almost 10 years 20 I was a house manager at the Ted Mann Concert Hall.  And it was about that time, I had been on 21 the search committee . . . I think.  I had been asked to be on the search committee for the 22 director role, filling the director position for, at the time, the GLBT Programs Office  GLBT 23 Programs Office at the time.  Anne Phibbs was hired and Anne had a vision for the Trans 24 Commission. She had seen everything that was happening in the community  Gender Blur and 25 the Trans Health Coalition and everything else.  So this was 2006, and she approached me and 26 Karen, who was an alum, and we became the first two co-chairs of the Trans Commission, and 27 even in that early formation we realized that we needed a sustainable model, so we formed a 28 little leadership team and that included Anne and other staff from . . . and sometimes student 29 staff from her office, from the Programs Office, and then the two co-chairs and whoever else 30 wanted to join the leadership team  actually, it became very open.  And even though we had 31 such a formal name of the Transgender Commission at the University of Minnesota, we kind of 32 did that on purpose.  We were very much, almost if you can at the U form a grass roots group, 33 thats what we did.  Anyone was welcome to join, we had people who were undergrad students 34 and grad students and alum and community members and we . . . yeah, I was part of that from 35 2006 to maybe 2011. 36 
AJ: And its still going. 37 
MG: Its still going strong as far as I know. 38 
AJ: You guys have had some tremendous victories over the years. 39 
MG: Yeah, we had some health care victories and some other really big . . . yeah, we started early 40 and we . . . 41 
AJ: Dorms. 1 
MG: Oh yeah, huge housing . . .  2 
AJ: Gender-specific dorms. 3 
MG: Yeah, yeah  we really started to team up with other departments at the U and create really big 4 change. 5 
AJ: Bathrooms. 6 
MG: Yeah, exactly.  7 
AJ: I think one of the big victories that they celebrated within the last year and a half or maybe two, 8 but the ability for students to self-identify their names, which is a huge thing on campus. 9 
MG: I remember reading that. 10 
AJ: And so the Trans Commission was a big part of that happening. 11 
MG: I remember when we started talking about that from the very beginning, because that was 12 identified at our very first meeting, as a big deal.  Because the legal name would end up on the 13 class roster and what we recognized around that piece and around restrooms and around all 14 sorts of stuff, is that we had natural allies.  For instance, international students  they often 15 wanted to go by a shortened form or a different name than what was ending up on the roster.  16 A lot of different . . . and then, of course, restrooms.  You talk about single-user restrooms, so 17 many people need those, of course, not just trans people.  Anyway, so it was good to start to 18 form alliances and we really had a strong connection with housing for a while, wed meet with 19 them regularly.   20 
AJ: Yeah.  Max, I dont know if you think about it in these ways, but you have had a tremendous 21 impact on shifting the landscape for trans and gender non-conforming and gender queer people 22 in the Twin Cities. 23 
MG: Yeah, I do think about it sometimes and I feel pretty proud of it.  Once in a while Ill end up 24 having an interaction one-on-one with someone who just identifies what an impact I had on 25 them personally, or something I had done that impacted them, and it feels really good.  It does.  26 The one other piece that I just have to mention because I feel really proud of it, and theres so 27 many different groups that I was part of and on different boards, but this piece . . . in 2004, I was 28 trying to finish an undergrad degree.  I had left Oberlin, you know, after two years and taken a 29 bunch of years off and then taking some classes at Syracuse when I lived there for a year.  30 Anyway, I finished my degree at the U by going part-time while I worked there.  I designed my 31 own degree and it was in . . . haha, I wont be able to remember the name of my degree, thats 32 funny.  I had to come up with a name for my degree and it was something like, Gender and 33 Sexuality in Cultural Context, but there was also a part about music and a part about 34 communications and journalism.  Anyway, so I needed a final project for my BA degree and so I 35 approached . . . I had been singing in One Voice Mixed Chorus on and off through the years and 36 so  I knew Jane Miller there, Jane Ramseyer Miller, and I approached Jane and said, What do 37 you think?  Is there some potential here?  So she and I together kind of came up with this 38 beautiful idea and I really developed it and kind of championed it and we held a Trans Voices 1 Festival, that was in 2004.  You were there, you were part of it.   2 
AJ: I remember, yes. 3 
MG: You were there. 4 
AJ: Yes. 5 
MG: It was wonderful.  We really focused on singing voices and we formed a trans choir that day at 6 that, and it was just excellent.  But we also talked about spoken voice and just storytelling and 7 all aspects of that.  It was a really powerful event too, that was at Metro State. 8 
AJ: Was that at Metro State? 9 
MG: That was at Metro State. 10 
AJ: OK.   11 
MG: And we did have other events at Metro State through the years too.  I was there a lot. 12 
AJ: There was one where . . .  13 
MG: The Trans Health Conference was there too. 14 
AJ: I met Ignacio Rivera there for the first time in my life.   15 
MG: Yeah, the Trans Health Conference. 16 
AJ: Yeah.  Wow.   17 
MG: So yeah, theres a lot more. 18 
AJ: Who I just want to proudly announce was also an interviewee in this project.   19 
MG: An interviewee  all right.  Im in good company. 20 
AJ: Youre definitely in good company and you actually introduced me to Ignacio. 21 
MG: Yeah, thats right  awesome. 22 
AJ: Thats incredible.  Weve talked about your community engagement and involvement, which is 23 long and extensive, but what about personally?  How have your parents dealt with your gender 24 transition?  Your sister? 25 
MG: Well, its interesting.  There are some gaps in my early story too.  My mom did remarry and so I 26 lived, I actually grew up a lot of my formative years  from like age 7 on with my mom, my 27 stepdad, my sister and my stepbrother in our household.  Then she divorced my stepdad right 28 after I left high school, I think, and I actually have mostly lost touch with he and my stepbrother.  29 Im still close with my sister.  But my family has been amazing, actually.   30 
AJ: Really, thats wonderful.   31 
MG: Im a lucky person.  Theyve really been wonderful and, of course, being gender queer and 32 asking people to not use pronouns . . . at first when I came out, I just said, Just avoid pronouns, 33 I think that will be easier than trying to use a gender neutral pronoun, or my name.  So Tyler 1 actually got really good at saying things, just repeating my name over and over.  A few members 2 of my family were able to kind of, you know, change their behavior enough and remember to do 3 that, but it was really hard.  So mostly they didnt, mostly they just still use she and her.  But for 4 years, I came out as gender queer, changed my name and didnt do anything else physical  5 transition-wise.  So I looked very much like a masculine woman and didnt pass as a man most of 6 the time.  But then eventually I kind of started to pass more and I started to think you know . . . 7 well, I had really wanted top surgery for a long time so I did choose to have top surgery, I think it 8 was in 2006 that I did that.  And that was a huge relief and that helped me pass a lot more so 9 then I was using mens bathroom when I had to, but mostly gender neutral if I could find them.  10 And then, I think it was 2012, I started thinking a lot more about testosterone. I thought it might 11 be good for my health for a variety of reasons and just really had lived in the middle and been 12 confusing people in terms of my gender presentation for a number of years  like maybe almost 13 10 years, I want to say even . . . on and off, especially the last five of those were kind of tough.  14 Its exhausting to live in the world . . . 15 
AJ: Yes. 16 
MG:  . . . and be questioned at the gas station about your gender.  I dont want that.  And so I really 17 decided . . . I thought, OK, well maybe Ill try a low dose of testosterone.  Well low dose, I 18 think some people maybe have success but what happened for me is I did go on a really low 19 dose, but my body was just like, Oh, OK, were doing this now.  I just really quickly transitioned 20 physically. 21 
AJ: Wow. 22 
MG: So its only been, three or so years for me for testosterone but it, like I said, quickly lowered my 23 voice, quickly gave me facial hair.  So I had a lot of mixed feelings about all of that actually, 24 because in some ways when I presented visibly in the middle, that matched more my gender 25 identity.   26 
AJ: Yeah. 27 
MG: So I miss that sometimes, that my expression confused people, because it was more true to who 28 I am.  So now, I feel kind of like Im hiding in a whole new way.   29 
AJ: Wow. 30 
MG: Yeah, it can feel hard.  31 
AJ: So out in the world, you just prompted a question for me, you and Tyler are probably perceived 32 as a gay male couple. 33 
MG: We are, totally.  And now actually even beyond that. 34 
AJ: Not a trans male couple. 35 
MG: Oh no, not at all.  Were perceived as gay men but were perceived even beyond that as bears, 36 because were both big guys.   37 
AJ: Right.  Hairy  youve got a little hair going on. 38 
MG: Oh yeah, I actually have more hair now than he does and hes been on T way longer than I have.  1 So yeah, we went through such an interesting transition together because right when we met, 2 we both looked like women and were taken as women, he was more butch maybe than I was at 3 the time.  But then he started transitioning and then he looked like he was in the middle  and 4 he hated that being out in public.  I looked like a woman.  I loved that because we still looked 5 queer and I wanted to be queer, visibly queer, and then he passed as a man and then we looked 6 like a straight couple, and I hated that. 7 
AJ: Oh my goodness. 8 
MG: I hated being seen as a straight couple because even though I was bi or queer, I shifted from bi 9 to queer pretty early, but I really wanted to be seen as visibly queer.  And so for a long time, we 10 were visibly like a straight couple, and Tyler really wanted to be, at work, kind of normal.  So he . 11 . . I really didnt like it but once in a while he would use the word wife after we were married 12 and I was like, I dont want that word, I dont want that word.  But, of course, people where he 13 worked, they would mostly use she and her and he wouldnt necessarily correct them about me.  14 And then, four and a half years ago, I got a job at the same place.  So whats funny is now people 15 who have been at Capella for a long, long time, sometimes use she or her for me, because they 16 knew me then or theyve known Tyler so long, but most people now because of how I look and 17 sound now, use he and him  and thats true across the board where I go in public, at work.  At 18 this point in my life Ive chosen not to correct pronouns. 19 
AJ: Yeah, you just dont get bent out of shape.  20 
MG: I dont care.  What actually is funny is once in a while when an old friend or even an old co-21 worker or family use a she or a her for me, theres part of me thats like, That feels kind of 22 good.  It balances it out a little more  just like when I was so feminine presenting I used to 23 want more masculine kind of things  its like I really crave that balance of having that.  And so I 24 do really, of course, want no pronouns  or they/them.  Ive gone with they/them for years now 25 so when people ask, What are your pronouns? Its they/them.  But thats not easy to do when 26 you look at me and you see what seems like a guy, thats just what it is.  So, yeah.  But my family 27 has been great.  I actually just last year, or last year  last week, I was down in southern Missouri 28 visiting my cousins, but also my grandma  shes 97. 29 
AJ: Oh wow. 30 
MG: She had just had a heart episode and shed been in the hospital and then she was put into a care 31 facility and I would be there visiting her and there was one morning I went alone and spent like 32 three hours there, and so different people would come into her room to do something  this 33 and that, and she would tell them about me and say wonderful things about me and Im sitting 34 right there and she would be using she and her over and over and over.  And part of me is like . . 35 . and then once in a while she would actually switch and use he and him, so she was really 36 trying, which for 97 shes so sharp.  But part of me is like, You know, lets just see what 37 happens here.  But I also didnt want them to think she was senile, because shes not  shes 38 actually really sharp. 39 
AJ: Yeah, because they probably just thought, Ahh, this guy is sitting here and grandma is having a 40 senior moment or something.   41 
MG: I know, but I also have just decided over the years, I dont want my gender to always be the 1 topic of conversation.  So I just chose not to do anything, not to say anything.  Ive learned not 2 even to let any reaction on my face and just let people think what they think and if they want to 3 ask, they will. 4 
AJ: Wow, thats a way to keep the anxiety down. 5 
MG: Yeah, and partly its my anxiety down too. 6 
AJ: I know so many young . . . right your own anxiety, thats what Im referring to.  Theres just so 7 many young people particularly that just get so bent out of shape  and I get it, I totally 8 understand. 9 
MG: I used to, I used to be there  for sure. 10 
AJ: But it just creates more drama for yourself over time. 11 
MG: And then for everybody else, you know.  And my family has had a lot of anxiety about doing the 12 right thing and doing what I want them to but not being able to and forgetting and messing up.  13 I appreciate that they care and they love me. 14 
AJ: Exactly, you always know the intent, right. 15 
MG: Yeah. 16 
AJ: Some people mis-gender you and its really an insult, theyre trying to identify that they know 17 who you are, who you really are versus your grandma just making a mistake.   18 
MG: Right, and, of course, in the middle of saying something shes proud of me about. 19 
AJ: Right, exactly.  So, yeah  you just cant get bent out of shape about that.  Tell me, what is the 20 relationship between the L, the G, the B, and the T?  You spent so much time in your life trying 21 to be add the B and T to this growing acronym that is now QIA. 22 
MG: Yeah, beyond. 23 
AJ: But what do you think the relationship is?   24 
MG: I dont think about it a lot anymore, to be honest.  Like you said, I spent so many years working 25 to be included that . . . I think it was the GLBT Programs Office at the U, just within the last year 26 they changed their name.  What is it now?  Gender Queer . . .? 27 
AJ: Its called the Center for Gender . . .  28 
MG: And Sexuality, maybe? 29 
AJ: The Center for Queer, Gender, and Sexuality.  30 
MG: OK. 31 
AJ: Yes, something . . .  32 
MG: Yeah, I almost like that better because Ive met so many people now who say, Well, that label 33 doesnt work for me, that label doesnt work for me.  But in terms of gender and sexuality, of 34 course when people out and do these trainings, Trans 101:  What Does this Mean?  Gender and 1 sex are different and heres how  and sexuality, people will conflate . . . or your transgender 2 and thats a form of sexuality  no, its not.  But, I have seen, over the years, for myself 3 personally and just across the community, there is a heck of a lot of dependencies and overlap 4 and interplay. 5 
AJ: Absolutely, theyre not interdependent. 6 
MG: No, exactly.  Well, theyre not independent from each other.   7 
AJ: Yeah, exactly  thats what I meant. 8 
MG: They are interdependent.  For me personally, earlier in my story coming out just exploring my 9 sexuality is what eventually led me to think about . . . oh, what is this thing that Im doing role 10 playing as a daddy?  Thats about gender and that is about my gender and I actually . . . so, I 11 think theres a lot of interesting layers and overlap and intricacies there that are beautiful and . . 12 . 13 
AJ: So politically even too? 14 
MG: Thats interesting, politically its tough because you kind of have to figure out . . . as I age, I 15 guess, I get more and more . . . you get a little different perspective on the political landscape. 16 
AJ: Absolutely. 17 
MG: I know that there has to be ways to reach people and so to reach people you have to simplify 18 things and to reach people you have to put it a little bit more in a box, or cleaner  make it 19 cleaner.  But I guess this leads to the power of stories, the whole point of this project, and how 20 important it is for people to hear personal stories and to know people in person because you 21 learn that its not that simple, it is more complex and our lives are not in a square box and that 22 things do overlap. 23 
AJ: Yeah.  So, bottom line they should probably . . . we should keep the acronym? 24 
MG: Sure, yeah. 25 
AJ: So many trans people are bi, queer, trans, lesbian or gay and lesbian. 26 
MG: Right, well because how you define your sexuality in and around and after transition.  How do 27 you define your own sexuality, how does your partner define their sexuality?  Having been in 28 that role its been really fascinating.  Its a whole world of questions and not as many answers, 29 which is good  its always good to ask more questions.  But, yeah, I do think that the queer and 30 trans overall communities should continue to work together politically and be involved together 31  for sure. 32 
AJ: What do you think about the increased visibility of the trans identity, the trans movement, the 33 trans . . .? 34 
MG: Yeah, the bathrooms  whoa.   35 
AJ: Yeah. 36 
MG: I would have never dreamed when we started the Trans Commission, just eleven years ago in 1 2006, where wed be now with bathrooms on national . . . wow, that was something else.  In 2 some ways its scary because it is so in the public eye and then you have, who in the world are 3 they but these Trump supporters who are so hateful, and then it raises that potential for 4 violence, I think, in a way  or at least it brings it out into the open.  Obviously weve had Trans 5 Day of Remembrance. 6 
AJ: Yeah, trans people have been getting murdered for quite some time.   7 
MG: Long before that started.  But I do . . . it increases, at least, the level of public fear amongst 8 everyone more, I think.  Theres just this kind of . . . so thats a little scary, but I do think its good 9 overall because it brings it up, people have more conversations and hopefully they know 10 someone, they hear their story and they start to actually understand it on a person-to-person 11 level.  Again, the community building, the relationship building, I think thats where it has to go. 12 
AJ: Ive had a number of people in this project tell me that their mother called them up after 13 watching Caitlyn, I am Cait, and saying, Hey, I get it now.   14 
MG: Oh wow.  Good, good. 15 
AJ: So Caitlyn did something right, I guess.   16 
MG: Something right, yeah.  No  yeah, I think in many ways that visibility is going to help us overall.  17 Its bringing it up in conversation, thats what we need to be doing. 18 
AJ: In 2006, you were sort of on the forefront of, like you said, with the Trans Commission with sort 19 of this bathroom issue, creating community for trans folks back in 2004, and all of these things.  20 So what do you think, Max, should be the agenda for the trans movement going forward? 21 
MG: You know, I have a lot of questions and way few answers than I used to.  But what I definitely . . 22 . where my life has gone more personally in the last few years, a lot of the energy that I was 23 putting into so much community building and activism and GLBT and trans, especially, 24 community, Ive shifted and explored more my spiritual self and community more and put that 25 energy into that community.  And what Ive recognized throughout this whole time  the 1990s, 26 2000s, and now with this work, is how absolutely critical intersectionality work is and not just 27 talking about it academically and saying, Oh yeah, we have overlapping identities and sure 28 were overlapping oppressions and theres so much involved in that, but its so important to 29 show up for each others struggles and fights.  Its almost like thats where the work needs to be 30 happening.  I think the more we can put the kind of resources and energy and momentum 31 behind work towards prison justice, especially, as it relates, for instance, to trans women of 32 color, instead of marriage equality  or as much as we put into marriage equality, can we shift 33 that.  Lets look at those people who are the very most oppressed in our culture and find ways . . 34 . how can we relate to their struggle and how can we then find ways to support them, because 35 essentially it impacts all of us.  36 
AJ: So trans people need to be at Standing Rock. 37 
MG: Thats right, exactly. 38 
AJ: Right, and Native American people need to be on the front lines of Trans Day of Remembrance, 1 those kinds of . . . 2 
MG: Yeah, all of those.  And, you know, so seeing our privilege in different ways and then what that 3 means and how we can show up in those fights using our resources that we might be able to 4 offer, but not taking over  because, of course, we dont want to be the spokesperson.   5 
AJ: No, absolutely. 6 
MG: We want to be there, we want to support  we want to use our money, resources, bodies, 7 whatever it is that we have to offer, lets show up for each other.  I think thats really where, 8 from my perspective, the work is now.  9 
AJ: I guess the last question that Ill ask, maybe it wont be the last, but where do you see the trans 10 community in 50 years from now? 11 
MG: Wow  whew.  How old will I be?  Will I be alive?  Possibly, if Im going to be as old as my 12 grandma.   13 
AJ: Yeah. 14 
MG: Oh funny.  Gosh, 50 years from now, this might sound a little dark but I think we are all going to 15 be struggling so much with survival because our resources, globally, are dwindling.  Look at the 16 water justice, look at water . . . its going to be the next oil, right?   17 
AJ: Yeah, yeah. 18 
MG: As we dump oil into our waters.  Anyway, but I think thats going to radically shift what happens 19 socially.  I think that we will have to find ways to build community together across what might 20 have now, or years ago, felt impossible.  Were going to have to work together, were going to 21 have to learn how to actually stick together, learn from each other, teach each other, become 22 innovative and not continue to fight and just unravel because theres ways that . . . I think that 23 some of the utopia/dystopia type things that Ive read, I think the smaller communities are good 24 but I think they have to be really diverse, they have to be really full of different resources and 25 different skills and different . . . so that we can actually find ways forward, find ways through 26 and continue to live and thrive as humans.  I think were quickly destroying the Earth so in 50 27 years thats going to be probably really effecting how we interact with each other. 28 
AJ: So youre kind of seeing a lot of these sort of labels and divisions that are easy to sort of identify 29 nowadays around race, color, gender would sort of dissipate in some ways. 30 
MG: Maybe, or in some ways be less important or less divisive.  31 
AJ: Less divisive. 32 
MG: Less divisive . . . hopefully we continue to progressively move through and learn how to be in 33 community together and love each other essentially, and support each other in ways that we 34 can actually move through whats going to become a crisis of how do we survive, how do we 35 thrive as humans when our resources are dwindling.  Yeah, so I think that the labels are . . . I 36 think thats starting to maybe even happen in some ways.  Yeah. 37 
AJ: Well, I can honestly say I love you, my brother. 1 
MG: I love you too. 2 
AJ: And, I guess the only last question is, is there anything that you want to talk about, I know 3 youve got some notes over there and everything. 4 
MG: Oh, that was to just kind of help my brain get around. 5 
AJ: That I didnt ask you. 6 
MG: Theres so much, yeah.  You know, the one thing . . . I kind of got going, the personal thing.  At 7 one point you said, Weve been talking about all your work in community and we havent 8 talked a lot about your personal life, and over the years I kind of did sort of put my personal 9 identity even on the back burner a little bit and I think thats why the shift away from the work.  10 But some of the fun things to share, I started talking about Tyler and I kind of got to a certain 11 point.  Well, we were passing as a straight couple for a while and then, of course, I started to get 12 more masculine and then we started to kind of . . . people would look and they were not sure 13 about me.  And then now, of course, to come full circle, so weve gone through this whole 14 progression in a really interesting kind of funny way  similar, our marriage has been kind of . . . 15 just interesting.  We got legally married in 2003, actually, in Ontario.  And so Canada was well 16 before the U.S. on making same sex marriages  marriage equality, but in a more broad way 17 thats more helpful for trans folks.  So 2003, Ontario was the first province to make it legal and 18 so Tyler and I had been together, of course, since 1997 and we had been engaged since the next 19 year, so well be coming on 20 years next summer, which is just huge. 20 
AJ: Is that right?  Wow. 21 
MG: So he was going to Ontario anyway for a conference in Toronto and said, Hey, you know, 22 maybe we should get married, and its like a month away.  And I was like, OK, yeah, weve 23 been wanting to do this and eventually maybe Ill move to Canada and it would help to be 24 married, it would help in a lot of ways legally for us.  So, we had a little ceremony on his 25 parents lawn and we just invited our immediate family and it was sweet.  At the time the 26 marriage forms in Ontario still had a bride and a grooms side and they didnt ask for a gender, 27 which was cool, so our genders are not on our marriage certificate.  But I let him have the 28 grooms side because of legal . . . he was like, Oh, what if something happens . . .  And I was 29 like, OK.  But at the time when we actually got married, our letters on our identification were 30 both F, so technically on our paper identification, we were marrying as a same-sex couple, both 31 female.  And I used the name Max, my legal name hadnt changed yet.  But anyway, we got 32 married and like within two or three months, he was able to change the gender marker on his 33 paper, so it became M.  So we were married as a same-sex couple, and then when he changed 34 that gender marker to M, in the U.S., we suddenly were a legal married couple because we were 35 opposite sex.  And then eventually, of course, just within the last few years actually, I finally 36 changed my gender marker to M, so now were technically a same-sex couple again, but weve 37 been married legally since 2003.  So for us it all worked out positively because we were able to 38 file our taxes jointly and all this stuff for years as a queer couple, trans couple, in this funny way.  39 I just think thats kind of a fun story to share. 40 
AJ: That is, no that is actually quite fascinating. 1 
MG: Its kind of unique, kind of unique.  But I feel really lucky to have had, really, just an amazing 2 partner of almost 20 years now and to go through so many, obviously, transitions together and 3 live in different places and countries and go through a lot.  Yeah, super blessed. 4 
AJ: Thank you so much for sharing that, that was amazing.  This whole interview has just been 5 fascinating, Max. 6 
MG: Its been great, Ive enjoyed it too. 7 
AJ: Absolutely.  Until we meet again, my friend. 8 
MG: Until we meet again  soon.  Thanks, 9 
AJ: Peace. 10 
MG: Peace. 11 

