   
Joe Ippolito Narrator   Andrea Jenkins Interviewer 
    
The Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies University of Minnesota 
September 3, 2015 
 
 
   

 
  
The Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story, while providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source material about the transgender community.  The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for current and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public. 
The Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300 individuals over the next three years.  Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and experiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality.  This project will be led by Andrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist.  Andrea brings years of experience working in government, non-profits and LGBT organizations.  If you are interested in being involved in this exciting project, please contact Andrea. 
Andrea Jenkins jenki120@umn.edu (612) 625-4379 
   
 
Andrea Jenkins -AJ 1 
Joe Ippolito  -JI 2 
 3 
 4 
AJ: Good morning.  My name is Andrea Jenkins and I am with the Tretter Collection, the 5 Transgender Oral History Project, and I am going to be interviewing Joe Ippolito.  Today is 6 September 3, 2015, and Im going to ask Joe if you dont mind introducing yourself, telling us 7 your preferred pronouns, your gender identity and your gender assigned at birth. 8 
JI: OK.  Hi, Im Joe Ippolito, my preferred pronouns are he/him.  My gender identity, I identify as a 9 trans man, my gender at birth was assigned female  female at birth, assigned female. 10 
AJ: Wow, well thank you, Joe.  Tell me just a little bit about the earliest memory you have.  It 11 doesnt necessarily have to be related to your gender identity, though if it is thats fine.  But 12 whats your earliest memory? 13 
JI: Of life, interesting question.  Im one of those people, I tend to remember things very in detail 14 throughout my life, almost to a point where it becomes annoying sometimes.  Some of the early 15 memories, I think maybe I was about five or six years old, living in a house in north Miami where 16 I was born, and I used to love to play outside.  I had a little . . . one of those little . . . well, back 17 then it was a little car but you had to peddle it, it was like a plastic peddle car and I used to 18 peddle that around the neighborhood and it got stolen once.  Someone stole it  period, I never 19 got it back and it was heartbreaking.  I really identified with this white little peddle car.  But, 20 those were good times.  Im lucky to say I had a very . . . growing up in Florida was a nice 21 experience because I was able to be outdoors a lot.   22 
AJ: So, where did you go to elementary school? 23 
JI: Well, my parents . . . I was born in north Miami but we moved up to an area a little bit north of 24 that called Davie, Florida, which has actually become a fairly popular area to live down there 25 now.  At the time when we moved up there, it was considered the boondocks, or however you 26 would call it, because it was out in the middle of nowhere, really closely located to the 27 Everglades, its all in south Florida.  I started elementary school at Davie Elementary School and 28 thats where I went to elementary school for five years and then started a different school, 29 obviously, in middle school.  I actually have some pretty good memories of elementary school.  I 30 was not a strong student, I had a lot of academic struggles and I was in learning support classes, 31 though I . . . the learning support classes, I remember having pretty good experiences with some 32 of those teachers in those classes.  I was an active student, like I loved to be outside and playing 33 games  things like that, but when it came to doing math . . . math, in particular, was not my 34 strong point, so I struggled with that.  35 
AJ: Wow, so no challenges around bullying or . . .? 36 
JI: Oh yeah, I would get . . . now I went to a school that was predominantly white.  The area where I 37 grew up was very segregated.  There was a Black community and then there was the white 38 community.  My parents were actually . . . why we ended up moving into this area, I havent the 39 slightest idea.  I think that they wanted to buy a little house and it was very cheap at the time, 1 which they did  a little two-bedroom house.  They were in north Miami, or Miami, which is a 2 much more diverse area, so then we moved up to this section of the state and it was just very 3 segregated, though my parents were originally all from the northeast  my mother from 4 Brooklyn, my father from Pittsburgh.  They grew up in more diverse communities, with a very 5 Jewish background for my mom - she was brought up by people who only spoke Yiddish.  My 6 father from a very strong Italian family.  My father was a little older.   7 
AJ: Ippolito. 8 
JI: Ippolito, right. 9 
AJ: Can you spell that? 10 
JI: Its I-p-p-o-l-i-t-o.  And the funny part about that, theres a story.  In Italy, and its a fairly 11 common name in the northeast, now I dont know about out here, but in the northeast theres a 12 lot of Ippolitos.  A lot of them own garbage companies, I dont want to associate that with mafia 13 people.  To my knowledge, Im not in relation to any of them.  My fathers family is pretty much 14 mostly gone, they all pretty much passed away.  But one of my fathers friends, I remember this 15 when I was a kid, went to Italy and brought back a candy that was a little candy and it was called 16 Ippolito, spelled the same way as my name.  Theres other ways in which to spell it  one p or 17 people spell it with two ls.  So yeah, that was a funny story.  My father said, Theres a candy 18 named after our name.  So again, dont know if theres any direct relationship to our family.  19 But, you know, growing up in that particular area of the country where, again, it was very 20 segregated, though I came from a family that did not grow up in that kind of an environment 21 and so it was instilled in me to, I guess, as much as possible to be open-minded and accepting 22 though I didnt have many people of color around me at that time to even make friends with, 23 because there wasnt . . . the communities werent so mixed. 24 
AJ: They werent there. 25 
JI: Yeah, which is quite sad in a lot of respects, but it all changed for me when I moved to New York, 26 but that was after college.  Mostly changed.   27 
AJ: I just want to hear a little more about your home life.  Did you have siblings?  What were your 28 parents like?  What was the home environment like? 29 
JI: I grew up a single . . . I was an only child, though my father had another child with his first 30 marriage and she is my sister, who Im not particularly close with.  We like each other a lot but 31 we didnt grow up together.  She is about 13 years older than I am.  So my father, the interesting 32 part about my growing up experience is my father was 50-years-old when he fathered me, my 33 mother was 26.  So I had an older dad, though he was a very attentive father.  Wed do a lot of 34 things together  I would watch old TV shows with him.  In fact, the Honeymooners and things 35 that kids my age werent necessarily watching, but because my dad watched them I used to like 36 to watch them.  He was a jazz musician as well, my father was a jazz musician  he played piano, 37 and thats where he made his livelihood.  He didnt have a formal education or anything, he 38 actually finished high school but he went into music.  He was actually quite talented.  He taught 39 at the community college, even though he didnt have a degree in music, just because he was a 40 very talented musician and he had some musical bands  all jazz, old school jazz.  He hated 1 fusion or anything like that  all old school jazz.  So I grew up around that kind of an influence, 2 and he would work nights a lot.  My mother, at the time they were married, was a stay-home 3 mom though she was . . . we didnt have much money.  I would say at the time, and these 4 classifications have changed now, we were lower middle class, on that low end of the middle 5 class spectrum.  I think maybe the household income was $30,000/year or something at the 6 time.  I dont know, this was back in the 1970s.  I had all the basics that you needed growing up, 7 not a lot of extras.  If I wanted those things I had to wait until the holidays or to a birthday if it 8 was a special item I wanted.  But, overall my parents were pretty good parents.  They divorced 9 when I was 9 and so my father moved back to north Miami, but that was only 20 minutes really 10 from where I lived, so I saw him pretty much weekly, at least twice a week, and him and I were 11 very close.  My mom, she re-married, well she met someone else and re-married when I was 14 12 to my step-father, and theyve been married now over 30 years.  I grew up . . . it was kind of 13 interesting.  I had the Jewish . . . moms side of the family was Jewish so I did a lot of the Jewish 14 holidays, Passover and things like that; and my fathers side was the Catholic Italian, and so I 15 would go and spend Christmas with that side of the family, though I was never baptized because 16 my Jewish grandmother refused, she wouldnt allow it and my Italian grandmother, or I say 17 Catholic grandmother, tried to sneak me off at one point to get baptized and the Jewish 18 grandmother found out about it and it was a whole big deal.  So . . . 19 
AJ: Were you bat mitzvah-ed or . . .? 20 
JI: No, I had no bar mitzvah or bat mitzvah or whatever the female version of that would be.  I went 21 to some as a kid or as a teenager, but no I wasnt really brought up with much religion.  My 22 parents were not . . . my father was more religious than my mother, he would go to church, but I 23 was introduced to Jewish culture a lot more than the actual religious aspects of it, in regards to 24 food and the holidays and things like that, which I did enjoy growing up having because it was 25 family time for me, extended family time.  I was very close with my grandparents on both sides, 26 so I enjoyed those events  those family events.  But, you know, no real religion and currently 27 still just kind of . . . Im spiritual but Im not really religious at this point. 28 
AJ: OK.  So when was the first time that you realized you were not the gender you were assigned at 29 birth? 30 
JI: Well, you know, its interesting, because for me I didnt transition physically until I was 30, so I 31 was a little bit older.  But I did come out as a lesbian at about age 24, which, for some, was a 32 little older as well.  I did not come out until after college, though I had always had attractions to 33 women and still do, thats my predominant sexual orientation is women.   34 
AJ: Is that an orientation, women?   35 
JI: Its funny because people say, Well, whats your sexual orientation?  I said, Well, Im 36 attracted to women, because I dont really consider myself . . .  37 
AJ: That would make you a heterosexual. 38 
JI: I dont really relate to heterosexuality or heteronormativity because Ive been queer for so long, 39 so its hard . . . 40 
AJ: OK, so Im glad were talking about this. 1 
JI: Yeah, its hard to kind of connect those things.  I dont identify with . . .  2 
AJ: So your orientation is women, but you dont associate with the term . . .  3 
JI: Heterosexual or straight or anything.  I identify as queer and Im attracted to women.  If people 4 say, Well doesnt that make you straight?  And I . . . not really, because again I dont . . . Ive 5 lived 25 years or longer as kind of a queer person, if you will.  It doesnt . . . heteronormativity 6 doesnt resonate with me.  Its not as though I live an extremely queer life in any respects, its 7 not like Im walking around with the word queer on my t-shirt all the time.  But I just cant relate 8 to those heteronormative ideals and the kind of stereotypical things that go along with that and 9 the gender roles and the expectations, so all those things dont really feel comfortable to me.  10 So, yeah, its kind of interesting.  I often say Im attracted to women and, of course, thats broad 11  broadly defined what that looks like, anyone who self-identifies as a woman potentially could 12 be attracted to. So thats kind of my orientation in that respect.  But as far as thinking back to 13 one of the first earliest memories, and its funny because we know that not all trans people 14 necessarily have those earlier memories, some dont realize it until later.  I, though, did have 15 those memories very early on.  I think as early as five or six I do recall wanting to be a boy, or 16 feeling like a boy, kind of wishing I was.  When I got a little bit older than that, dressing up in my 17 step-fathers clothing.  I would sneak and then pretend . . . I would be in my room and pretend 18 to be a rock star or something in his clothing.  Of course, they were so big but . . . maybe when I 19 was eight or nine.  I do remember being mis-gendered, interestingly enough, and called a boy at 20 various points in time out in public, because I was very much a tomboy at the time.  And while I 21 did have somewhat longer hair, there was periods where I had it a little bit shorter and theres 22 one experience I remember.  I was probably around . . . I was young enough to where I was just 23 first learning how to tie shoes, laces on sneakers and things, and my mom and I were out at 24 JCPenneys or one of those stores and she was shoe shopping.  I was practicing my shoe tying, 25 untying shoe laces and then tying them, and the guy who worked there said, Maam, can you 26 please tell your son to stop tying these shoes  untying and tying our shoes?  I know that it 27 brought up anxiety for me because, at the time, I was . . . Im a girl, thats what Im taught to 28 know.  And I think my mom kind of said, OK, no problem, she didnt really correct his gender 29 because it didnt really matter.  He was basically asking that I stop untying and tying shoes.  I 30 was messing up his whole department with untying and tying shoes.  So there was that mis-31 gendering in the opposite direction in a weird way at those times.  And then I do remember at 32 age . . . maybe 12 or 13, kind of coming out to my mom about being attracted to girls.  I 33 definitely had attractions to girls in my school, one of my babysitters, whatever those early 34 physical and even sexual attractions are.  And it was even emotional, I definitely felt a different 35 set of emotions towards women than I did towards boys, or men, though I didnt really 36 understand it.  I had no exposure to the gay or lesbian community either, it was a pretty 37 conservative area of the country where I was growing up.  I knew about gay and lesbian things, I 38 would see it on TV a little bit  whatever existed back then, because this was in the 1970s.  And 39 my mom handled it pretty well.  She said, You know, sometimes people have different 40 feelings, and she said, I dont care what you end up being attracted to, but its OK to not know 41 or to think that you might have these attractions or not.  She kind of didnt diminish it or kind 42 of negate it or anything.  I also had crushes on boys a little bit too, but the crushes felt very 43 different.  The boy crushes felt kind of more stereotypical.  I was attracted to the cutest boy in 1 school, just like all the other girls. 2 
AJ: So did all the other girls as well. 3 
JI: Right, it wasnt anything special.  But the girl who sat next to me in science class, who I would 4 get all giddy for and would wait on bated breath until she came into science class, that was a 5 different kind of attraction.  But, in high school and early in college, I had two boyfriends  two 6 primary boyfriends, one in high school and one in college.  They were decent guys.  I did fall in 7 love with them to the degree that you could fall in love with someone at those ages.  But, I 8 didnt realize what I felt for them wasnt the same level of attraction that I feel for women until I 9 started to date women.  You dont . . . 10 
AJ: You dont know what you know until you know. 11 
JI: I assumed that all women, I identified at the time as a woman, that all women felt similarly 12 towards men as I felt.  But then when they would talk about their boyfriends, Im like, I dont 13 quite feel that same level of desire.  So, it was interesting.  It was interesting. 14 
AJ: So you said you came out as trans at 30. 15 
JI: At 30. 16 
AJ: How was that?  Tell me about your coming out experience, if you dont mind? 17 
JI: Sure.  I started my physical transition right shortly after that, so by 31 I was on hormones and 18 everything.   19 
AJ: And what year would you say that was? 20 
JI: That was in . . . around 2001. 21 
AJ: OK. 22 
JI: So I had been living in New York City, where I moved right after college, for eight years.  I moved 23 there in 1994 or so.  Id lived there for about a year before I came out as a lesbian.  I was there 24 when I came out as a lesbian in New York City.  Finally, I just started to acknowledge my 25 attractions to women and came out as a lesbian and ended up moving more and more towards 26 a butch identification in that respect and then feeling like a boy, and then took on whatever the 27 labels at the time were around gender-queer identity.  The names and the terminologies 28 change.  I dont think they really used gender-queer then, I think it was more like a butch boi, b-29 o-i, that kind of thing.  And kind of lived in that space for a number of years and then started 30 meeting more trans men.  I had known many trans women at the time, in the New York City 31 community, but trans men werent as . . . well, there werent as many and they werent as 32 visible, even those who did exist.  Towards the tail end of my living in New York City, I started to 33 meet a few trans men who had started transitioning.  So I moved to Philadelphia after that, in 34 2001, to go back to get my doctorate degree in psychology and it was at that point . . . 35 
AJ: Pre-9/11 or Post-9/11? 36 
JI: It was Pre-9/11.  I actually moved there, literally, three months before 9/11, which was 1 interesting because I still had a lot of ties and connections to New York  friends, and I had a 2 girlfriend at the time who lived in New York.  It was an interesting experience because I was 3 going back to New York at that time almost weekly and during that time I couldnt go for a 4 while.   5 
AJ: Sure. 6 
JI: But yeah, so it was Pre-9/11 and then I just started to look into and explore what transitioning 7 would look like.  There werent, in Philadelphia, at the time there wasnt the Mazzoni Center or 8 any of those places . . .  9 
AJ: Whats the Mazzoni Center? 10 
JI: The Mazzoni Center is Philadelphias version of . . . its an LGBTQ health and wellness center.  Its 11 expanded over the years into a full-fledged kind of health and wellness center, they do mental 12 health and physical health.  They have a health care center, they do mental health, they do case 13 management, social work, they have a legal department.  Its for the LGBTQ community. 14 
AJ: Do you mind spelling Mazzoni? 15 
JI: Its M-a-z-z-o-n-i Center.  And they are the organization that actually took the Philadelphia Trans 16 Health Conference under their wing and are now the organization that puts that conference on.  17 So theyre the organization that does that conference. 18 
AJ: And thats one of the primary transgender conferences . . .  19 
JI: In the country, yeah.  It has been over the past . . . well, they just reached, I think, their 12th year 20 . . . or 13 years, and it started off real small scale and it has grown to be, I think, there was close 21 to 5,000 people at the last one.   22 
AJ: Wow. 23 
JI: Yeah, huge.  I was actually a chair of the planning committee for a few years and on the planning 24 committee for many years earlier on in the process of the conference development  from 25 probably around 2003 until actively 2009 or so, and then I stepped away to do other things.  So 26 Mazzoni Center is the organization that does that conference, if theres any connection to that 27 that people might associate.  So yeah, at the time, though, in Philadelphia there was really one 28 or maybe two doctors, barely, who did any hormone treatment and one of them was 29 predominantly a doctor who kind of started doing it but really was doing work with the HIV 30 community, but he started to acknowledge that there were trans people who wanted hormones 31 so he started to kind of work with that.  There wasnt a lot of knowledge about what all this 32 looked like, what hormones . . . you could look and determine what hormones could do but . . . 33 
AJ: What are the long-term effects and . . .? 34 
JI: What are the long-tern effects?  You kind of knew what to expect from the basic things but it 35 wasnt like . . . the research wasnt where it is today and I thank God it is moving forward in that 36 direction so we have a better idea of how to do this stuff for people. 37 
AJ: Sure. 1 
JI: But I had met, then, a handful of trans people.  There wasnt that many in Philadelphia and Im 2 sure there wasnt that many in other cities like here at the time.  It was a mixed group of trans 3 women and men.  I became friends with a racially mixed group, class-wise mixed.  We all just 4 kind of formed . . . there was a community formed and at the time anyway it was really about 5 just kind of pushing forward this basic agenda of, Were here and we want some basic rights.  6 Now, of course, its broadened in many different directions, which is a great thing.  But yeah, my 7 coming out experience, I would say, was pretty . . . honestly it wasnt very difficult.  I did lose 8 one job.  I was employed at a job for a managed-care company, full-time, and I started 9 transitioning at the onset of when I started that job, and part-way through I was dismissed from 10 the job and there wasnt any clear reason why.  I did inform them I was transitioning, there was 11 no work-related reason why.  They kind of fudged and made-up a couple things, but it just didnt 12 kind of . . . 13 
AJ: It didnt fly. 14 
JI: Didnt fly.  But I was actually kind of grateful because after I was dismissed from that job, I was 15 able to collect unemployment for a short time, but then I got the job working for Mazzoni 16 Center, where I worked for six years as a therapist. 17 
AJ: Oh wow. 18 
JI: Yeah, I dont know that I would have gotten that job. 19 
AJ: So it catapulted you? 20 
JI: Yeah, it was a great opportunity, really.  Sometimes what feels like a really bad moment turns 21 into something better because I was able to get connected with the Mazzoni Center and start 22 working in their mental health department and then also get involved with helping organize the 23 conference.  And so all these positive things came out of it. 24 
AJ: So tell us what you do?  What do you do, whats your profession?   25 
JI: What do I do now?  Well, my profession . . . I have a masters in social work, I have an 26 undergraduate degree in telecommunications, and a doctorate in psychology, though my 27 primary job or what I make money doing, is working in the mental health field.  I am a doctor of 28 psychology, I have yet to take my doctorate-level licensing exam.  I plan to do that later this 29 year, actually in the winter.  But, I currently work . . . Ive worked for years doing psychotherapy 30 under my masters degree.  I also currently now work for Allina Health Systems here in 31 Minneapolis/St. Paul and I work as a . . . really, I do crisis assessments in their emergency room 32 departments.  I also fill in at times in their IOP, Intensive Outpatient and Partial Programs, and I 33 also have a very small private practice and Ive always had a small private practice, even in 34 Philly.  Right now I have about five clients.  I dont really want to do that full-time.  And then I 35 also have been teaching, pretty much every semester for the past five years as an adjunct or, in 36 the case of Metropolitan State, as a community faculty member.  So I teach a variety of different 37 classes, some are more specifically psychology oriented or therapy related, and others are more 38 general  like I teach a social psychology class once a year.  And so, that kind of supplements my 39 income.  I kind of have a few different things that I do for income.  As far as community work 1 goes, I do . . . its run the gamut.  I think I initially started getting involved in doing more 2 community work, obviously, in Philadelphia with the conference and then doing a lot of work 3 with the city there initially helping with a lot of needs assessments that they were doing.  Also, 4 kind of advocacy work with some of the local organizations there along with some of my 5 colleagues who I was associated with in the Philadelphia area  my trans colleagues.  I was on 6 the police liaison committee for a while in New York City around . . . it was an LGBT police liaison 7 committee and there was a few of us on there, kind of . . . like many cities, Philadelphia had a lot 8 of problems with trans people being . . .  you know, mistreated by the police, so we formed a 9 committee.  I also did a lot of . . . helped organizations kind of enhance their trans programming 10 and get trainings done.  So its just run the gamut.  Ive also been involved in writing things from 11 time to time, little articles and things like that.  Obviously I finished a dissertation which was on 12 trans men and resocialization issues, re-socializing themselves after they start passing and living 13 full-time as men, physically looking as male.  So yeah, my activism and advocacy work . . . I 14 consider it more advocacy and organizing work though I have done some grass roots activism.  15 And currently now Im primarily focusing on . . . I am writing some things and then also the film 16 and art festival, Gender Reel, that I started about five years ago.  I have a passion for organizing 17 and when I left the Philadelphia Trans Health Conference, those set of skills were not being 18 utilized and so I thought to myself, Well what am I going to do? because I really enjoy that 19 process.  Its a whole other set of skills than doing therapy.  Im a big film buff and so I would go 20 to the gay and lesbian film festival in Philadelphia yearly and there was never very many trans 21 films  of course, theyd have one and then theyd have 100 gay men films.  It was really 22 problematic and I actually initially approached them about enhancing their programming and 23 was even willing to kind of get involved in that, but they werent very open to it.  They were old 24 school.  I think its changed a lot there now too with that film festival.  So I just said, Well, Im 25 going to just do my own.  It just started that way and kind of manifested into what it is today . . 26 . which I dont even know what it is, its just kind of going in different directions but I just kind of 27 go with the flow.  It seems to be received well in many respects and people seem to enjoy . . . 28 each year we get better and better films too.  It means to me that the quality of filmmaking 29 around the issues of transgender and non-conforming people, in terms of the subject matters 30 and the content and also just the style of the filmmaking, is getting better and people are doing 31 more. 32 
AJ: What are some of the issues and ideas and concepts that are coming up in the films?  Because I 33 know you probably screen a lot of them.  Are there any sort of re-occurring themes or some 34 themes that really stand out to you as unique to the transgender narrative?   35 
JI: Well what Ive noticed is a movement away from kind of documentaries focusing on the physical 36 transition, or that persons physical transition experience and moving more toward more 37 specific things like issues regarding family and being a trans parent or certainly dating or 38 relationships, issues around more specific things related to culture and race and trans issues and 39 the intersectionality of those things.  There are still those narratives of a persons personal 40 experience upon transitioning and, of course, we learn a lot from that.  But Ive noticed a shift 41 away from that, not as many of those types of films  more fiction, stories, plots, story lines that 42 are dealing with trans characters but not necessarily related directly to the trans issue.  There 43 was a film we showed a couple of years back, which was a horror film, and it was made by a 1 trans person and it was all . . . the main character was trans and it was like a Zombie apocalypse 2 thing with a trans character as the main character.  Its not like they overtly came out as trans in 3 the movie but it was . . . those kinds of things, youre seeing more and more of those kinds of 4 things.  Thats really important.  So yeah, its evolved a lot in that respect.  And then even people 5 doing personal story narratives but not largely only focusing on the trans issue, but focusing on 6 their broader lives and how that intersects with their trans experience.  So Ive seen a lot of 7 shifts in that way, so thats good to see. 8 
AJ: Cool.  Just going back to coming out a little bit.  I know that you shared that you lost a job, but 9 how did your family and friends in the community that you had already sort of built, how did 10 they deal with your coming out? 11 
JI: I am also one of the lucky people who have, for the most part, always had a fair amount of 12 support in that respect. My parents have been very supportive, as best as parents can be  to 13 some degree.  Initially it took a little while for my mom to get the pronoun things down, and she 14 still . . . sometimes shell say he and she in one sentence but shes also 72 and she did live my 15 first 30 years as me as a female and identifying in those pronouns.  But its not meant in any 16 disrespectful way, she fully recognizes that Im a trans man.  She actually has told me that she 17 realizes that I started to come into myself a lot more and just seemed more happy when I finally 18 transitioned.  She acknowledged and noticed that.  As far as my dad goes, he was around during 19 the first few years of my transition, but he died about three years into my transition.  He passed 20 away.  He was very open and accepting as well.  I was his youngest daughter, so it was 21 interesting.  We had a close daughter/father relationship  that relationship didnt change much 22 after I transitioned.  We still had that same closeness though he passed away about three years 23 into my transition, he was at that time 83.  So he wasnt that . . . because he had fathered me at 24 age 50.  Extended family members, like my grandmother, uncles, grandfather  all just . . . they 25 accepted it a little bit easier even than my parents, in a weird way.  My grandmother, who also 26 passed away about six years ago, I was very close with, she just made the pronoun transition 27 immediately.  Here is this older woman, didnt even . . . the minute I told her just pssht  that 28 was it.  It was kind of interesting.  So I consider Im very lucky because I know a lot of trans 29 people dont have that experience.  As far as friends go, again pretty lucky in that respect.  I 30 really havent had any friends kind of push me away or tell me Im a sicko or tell me they dont 31 want to be friends with me anymore.   Though there were some transitions in my friendships at 32 the time when I moved from New York to Philly, I didnt start transitioning until I was in Philly, 33 and the friends I had in New York, while Ive maintained a couple of friends from there, they 34 were 20-something friends, party friends, people I didnt really have a real strong tie to.  There is 35 one person who Im still very close with from there but weve now known each other for over 20 36 years. In Philly I started to predominantly get involved in trans communities, so most of all my 37 friends from there were queer or trans identified, so that was not an issue.  I have a couple of 38 childhood friends and even my friends from high school, all very OK with it.  I just saw a friend of 39 mine from high school two weekends ago, she came up here for other things but we had lunch 40 and I hadnt seen her in over 20 years.  She didnt ask me . . . we talked briefly about . . . I dont 41 even think we talked about it, we had talked before at various points in time.  I just happen to 42 have a lot of liberal-minded friends who were not closed-minded or . . . I mean, what they say 1 behind closed doors, I have no idea, but theyve never been disrespectful to me upfront. 2 
AJ: Right.  But nobody knows what people say about them behind closed doors, regardless of your 3 orientation or identity, right? 4 
JI: Yeah, absolutely. 5 
AJ: So thats kind of how you have to accept life as well. 6 
JI: The one interesting part is my mother said that she actually found it more challenging for her 7 when I came out as a lesbian than when I came out as a trans man because . . .  8 
AJ: Thats interesting. 9 
JI: She actually, I guess maybe at that point, she had already gone through one experience, maybe 10 that made it easier. 11 
AJ: Sure. 12 
JI: But she just always felt like because of some of the things she acknowledged growing up and the 13 way that I related to things, that it just made more sense to her that I identified as a boy or a . . . 14 so it just made more sense to her logically, in her own mind.  So, that was interesting  not that 15 she wasnt accepting of my lesbianism, she was, but she just specifically said that to me so that 16 was kind of interesting. 17 
AJ: So, talk about romance and love and relationships.  Youve sort of been hinting at it a little bit. 18 
JI: Right. 19 
AJ: But, whats your current relationship status?   20 
JI: Well, its interesting, because Im hoping that when someone watches this film 15 years from 21 now, if they pull it up through the archives or whatever, that dating experiences for trans people 22 will be generally a lot easier  and its getting easier, I think, with youth culture nowadays.  At 23 45, I have found the dating process a little bit more challenging in various ways.  I think with the 24 day and age being what it is and everything happening online and you dont meet people in real 25 time, it makes dating in general interesting for everybody.  But as a trans person, its really 26 interesting.  I currently am in a new relationship, its only four months old and things have been 27 going fairly well.  I dont know where that will go, or if it will go anywhere.  I have had, in my 28 dating experiences since transitioning in 2001, I havent had very many long-term dating 29 relationships.  Theyve been shorter term, six months or a year.  I think the longest one Ive had 30 was a year and a half.  I dont actually go . . . I tend to take two to three years in-between 31 relationships where Im single.  Its not necessarily by choice but its just the way it goes.  32 Sometimes its by choice, sometimes I know I just need a break from relationships.  But the 33 stretches sometimes have gone almost too long in the sense that there would be no intimacy in 34 my life for two years and that two or three years gets taxing.  Im not a . . . personally I identify 35 as a demisexual and a sapiosexual, these are new terms that Ive come to conclude or learn 36 about.   37 
AJ: Can you define those terms? 1 
JI: Well, demisexual, from what I have read . . .  2 
AJ: D-e-m-i . . .  3 
JI: D-e-m-i sexual and it sounds like its weird and bizarre but its actually just someone who needs 4 to form an emotional connection with someone before they can be sexual with them. 5 
AJ: Yeah. 6 
JI: Not necessarily in love, but have some connection. 7 
AJ: Some connection. 8 
JI: Thats me in a nutshell.  I cant have one-night stands, its just me.  Ive never been that way.  A 9 sapiosexual is someone who also wants to have a mental connection with someone before 10 being sexual. 11 
AJ: More intellectual. 12 
JI: Intellectual is a better way of putting it.  So for me, I have to have some connection in order to 13 be sexual and so thats why it often is longer periods of time.  Its not easy to form those kinds of 14 connections with people.  Even if you go out on a coffee date here and there, you kind of know 15 if that connection is there or not earlier on.  So, Im just the kind of person, and Im not judging 16 anyone who . . . if one-night stands work for you, Im all for it, it just doesnt work for me. 17 
AJ: Sure. 18 
JI: So that has put a damper, at times, on intimacy.  People say Im picky, and perhaps I am picky, 19 but Im really just picky about wanting to have a connection with someone that goes beyond 20 just a sexual attraction.  There has to be something more there.  So dating, in general . . . I was 21 married for a short time, legally married  this was back in . . . I was 35, 36 and now Im 45, so 22 were talking almost 10 years ago.  It was a quick relationship, shouldnt have married her.  Did it 23 thinking . . . it seemed like the right thing to do at the time.  She had a 4-year-old daughter I was 24 co-parenting, we both wanted it, but the marriage didnt last very long.  Within six months it 25 was over, after we actually got married though we had been together for a year before that.  26 And with that went my step-daughter, who I was very close with.  She is out of my life now, 27 though they came back into my life a number of years later and Im friendly with them now, 28 though they live in Connecticut now.  But my step-daughter is now in 7th grade and when I was 29 co-parenting her she was 4, so shes like a teenager now.  Big girl  its kind of funny to see.  So 30 yeah, I havent had many relationships since transitioning that have been long-term.  I did have 31 a couple of longer-term relationships as a woman with women prior to transitioning, but this is 32 one area of my life that has actually brought a lot of sadness to my life in that I have not had a 33 longer-term relationship with someone who I could actually establish something more . . . I 34 wouldnt say permanent because I have impermanence on my arm for a reason.  I dont know 35 that I believe anything . . .  36 
AJ: Lets see that. 37 
JI: Its hard with my hairy arms to see it but . . .  1 
AJ: Im having a little bit of a challenge. 2 
JI: I can come up closer . . . see, its right there.  Impermanence.  And I do truly believe that nothing 3 lasts forever, its inevitably always in a state of shifting change  good, bad, or indifferent.  But 4 man, you know, it would be nice to have a relationship with someone who I could take a 5 vacation with.  I would say even if the relationship lasts four years and then its over, I would like 6 to have that experience as a trans man at least once in my life before I die. And at 45, Im 7 beginning to wonder is this going to happen or not?  Because as you get older too, its 8 exhausting to date  its tiring, youve got to go out there and meet new people, and youre not 9 as social as you used to be in the same kind of ways.  I dont go to bars and drink so Im not out 10 in those kinds of environments.  So, you know, prior to meeting the woman Im dating now, I 11 had kind of accepted the fact that it may not happen for me.  I dont know if its that the 12 universe has not brought this person to me, however you want to look at it, and I kind of just 13 tried to accept that Im going to grow old alone.  That sounds really sad maybe, or sounds really 14 negative, but actually when I kind of accepted that, it helped . . . kind of like a release.  I kind of 15 let go of this idea that Im going to meet someone and grow old with them because I dont know 16 that that will ever happen  not that I wouldnt like to meet someone and again have a more 17 substantial relationship, I dont expect that Ill have a romantic partner when Im 75 or 80.  I may 18 or I may not.  I expect, though, to have good friends in my life who I can be around and have 19 stimulating conversations with and support one another the way I have these friends in my life 20 now.  I am fortunate to have some very good friends in my life both here and in Philadelphia and 21 other parts of the country, who I feel like are heart friends.  I call them heart friends . . . theres 22 heart friends and theres road roads.  Heart friends are the friends that stick with you through 23 thick and thin, who you have in your life for years and years; and road friends are those people 24 who come into your life and they have a purpose and they can be great people, but then they go 25 out of your life because you grow apart or you go in different directions.  And thats great too, 26 you have to have both because you learn a lot from the road friends.   27 
AJ: So true.   28 
JI: Yeah, so thats kind of my status on relationships.  I know my experience is a lot different than a 29 lot of other trans men who have had the advantage of being in long-term relationships, though 30 that has not been my experience. 31 
AJ: Ive noticed sort of an uptick, if you will, in trans-attracted relationships.  What I mean by that is 32 transgender people relating to each other. 33 
JI: Trans people with trans people. 34 
AJ: Right.  And so Im sort of . . . and that has been fairly common for trans women and trans 35 women to connect, but Im starting to see more trans men who identify as gay connecting.  And 36 also, trans men and women who are heterosexual connecting. 37 
JI: Yeah, Ive seen that too. 38 
AJ: Have you any thoughts about that or have you witnessed that at all? 39 
JI: I actually have noticed an increase in that as Ive been part of this community.  I dont . . . I can 1 only assume thats due to more visibility and more trans people being visible and out and more 2 people transitioning because they realize that this is an option that they can do.  I think its to 3 connect or relate to someone who kind of gets it, provided youre attracted to them and you 4 have those other connections to them, it seems like it would be generally a little bit easier than 5 to sometimes relate to a cis person who may not get it in the same way, so I can totally 6 understand why trans people would date other trans people for that reason.  And so, yeah, Ive 7 seen it in all different ways.  Ive seen trans women with trans women, trans men and trans 8 women together, trans men with trans men.  So yeah, its good to see that.  You know, what has 9 always bothered me, and Ive heard this from people, was when you talk about, for me  when I 10 talk about my sadness around my lack of intimacy or relationship in this way, people will say, 11 Oh, shouldnt you just be happy you were able to transition?  Well, you know, life has many 12 different facets, thats just one part of life.  In order to be a fully, kind of self-actualized, person 13 you need to have a lot of different things and romance and intimacy is one of them.  Im a strong 14 believer that we need to have that in our lives. 15 
AJ: Absolutely. 16 
JI: Human beings are . . . Im not saying that there are people who feel like they dont want 17 relationships or who identify as asexual and all that, again its a self-identification that I respect, 18 but I am a believer that human beings, in general, need connectedness.  There is a difference 19 between close friends and romantic intimate connections on that other level. 20 
AJ: Absolutely. 21 
JI: I always kind of get annoyed when people minimize the importance of that for trans people 22 because were no different than anyone else, we want to have those things.  It isnt enough to 23 just say, Oh, yeah, I transitioned so thats enough for me.  I should be happy with that.  Well, I 24 am happy with that, but I want these other things too, just like trans people want to be gainfully 25 employed and they dont want to have to deal with being oppressed and discriminated against.  26 Its not all just about, Oh, you had this opportunity to transition, shouldnt you be happy, and 27 then put up with everything else, it doesnt work that way.  I mean, we want to live fully 28 actualized lives and that includes all those domains in life that you need and want to have if at 29 all possible. 30 
AJ: Sure.  The home, the security, family. 31 
JI: Exactly, all the things . . .  32 
AJ: 25 kids, the garage. 33 
JI: It varies from person to person but yeah, for me, I dont know that I want to have children.  I, at 34 one point, wanted to be involved in that and I had a step-daughter who I was kind of co-35 parenting, and that was great.  But now, to get into that with someone, Im not sure if thats a 36 direction I would go though I would like to have a partner who I could travel with or who I could 37 maybe share a living home with  whatever that looks like, even if its a nice rental.  I dont 38 know, I dont know that I want to buy a house, I dont know if I want to be living in a situation 39 where Im feeling like I cant move somewhere else if I wanted to.  Even if I move with that 40 person, but even still you want to have some of those traditions of more of a relationship that is 1 more substantial  at least, I know I would like to and it has not come to pass at this point. 2 
AJ: So, let me ask you this.  When you think about the relationship between the L, the G, B, and 3 then the T, what are your thoughts around that?  What has been your experience?  How does 4 the T fit into the broader LGB movement? 5 
JI: Well, its interesting because I have two schools of thought on that and they contradict each 6 other, in a way.  One school of thought is that the trans experience, in and of itself, or the 7 gender non-conforming trans experience, although the gender non-conforming experience is 8 different even to the more traditional trans experience.  But if were just talking about the trans 9 experience, its very different than the LGB.  There are some overlapping similarities, but even 10 so far as coming out and physically transitioning our bodies on hormones, having surgeries if 11 people are able to and have access to having that, it changes our physiology, it changes the way 12 that the medical communities relate to us, so its a very different experience, while the LGB folks 13  their bodies generally, if theyre cis people, are . . . while there might be some differences in 14 terms of certain things, theyre still cis people and so their bodies havent changed in that 15 respect.  So I think theres some stark differences there in terms of the trans experience versus 16 the LGB experience, not just with physical transition but in many aspects of life.  So in some 17 respects, I almost feel at times like it needs to be two separate issues, or not issues  two 18 separate communities, two separate things.  Then, on the flip side I realize that theres just not 19 enough trans people to do this work on our own, so we need allies and supporters.  Even though 20 traditionally the gay and lesbian community has not been overwhelmingly supportive 21 traditionally, it is changing, its getting better, and, of course, there have always been pockets of 22 people or individuals who have been supportive of the trans community within the L and the G 23 community.  So I think while the trans experience is different, not in a good, bad, or indifferent 24 way, just different, we need our allies and supporters, and also in the straight world or the non-25 trans . . . non-LGB or non-queer world, we need supporters and allies to move this forward.  If 26 we can somehow . . . if we can connect or align ourselves with LGB people and organizations 27 who are truly supportive of our movement and want to support this in a genuine way, I think 28 that thats great.  Though, weve seen the opposite of that a lot of the time.  And also now, it 29 sometimes feels like some groups and organizations are jumping on the trans bandwagon, 30 partially because there might be funds available now suddenly  grants and things like this, and 31 so its kind of an interesting balance to look at.  I have many gay and lesbian friends, mostly 32 lesbian friends.  I dont have as many cis male friends, not that Im not open to it, my 33 communities have been the queer, trans, and kind of gay women communities.  I came out of 34 lesbian communities so thats where my communities were.   35 
AJ: What do you think should be the agenda for the trans community going forward?   36 
JI: Well, thats interesting because we have so many needs.  Its so broad and vast, and like I 37 mentioned earlier when we were talking about my early experiences in Philadelphia and how, at 38 the time, there was really just one primary agenda which was just making it so trans people are 39 recognized and we get basic things.  And, of course . . .  40 
AJ: Basic things like access to health care, employment, housing. 41 
JI: Access to health care, employment  which is still, obviously, big problems today.   1 
AJ: Particularly for trans people of color. 2 
JI: Particularly for trans people of color, for trans women  especially around employment.  I think 3 that all of these things are big agendas.  And its interesting because we have a . . . the one thing 4 I could always say about the trans community is we may be very different in our identities, our 5 racial and cultural backgrounds, our class backgrounds, educational experiences, all those 6 things, but we are a tough community.  Even though we may have different opinions and 7 sometimes there might be in-fighting, but we are a tough community.  We have pushed . . . the 8 trans community has pushed these agendas forward, no one has helped us do this.  I feel like 9 there is room for people to be doing this work on many different levels, and that needs to 10 happen.  So there needs to be people who are advocating for trans women of color, not just 11 trans women of color advocating for themselves but other people supporting that agenda and 12 that movement.  There needs to be people working in the area of sexual violence, there needs 13 to be people working in the area of the stuff happening in the prison system, there needs to be 14 people who are dealing with health care movements across the board, there needs to be people 15 who are supporting trans men and their experience.  We need to have all of this and I dont 16 know that I can actually say that there is one primary agenda, its hard to say.  Though I think it 17 goes back to the original agenda, is that we are still in a place, or a position, where a vast 18 majority of trans people, and particularly trans people of color, lives are not safe.  Theyre 19 unemployed or underemployed, underinsured or not insured, and we need to move in a 20 direction where again those things are changing and not continuing to happen.  And so if thats 21 the agenda, and that agenda holds true for any trans person  we just want trans people in 22 general to not have to experience those things in the way that they have.  And again, while 23 were starting to build allies or create more ally support, were still doing this on our own.  In 24 fact, I did a film on aging issues, Growing Old Gracefully, and . . .  25 
AJ: Whats it called? 26 
JI: Growing Old Gracefully:  The Transgender Experience.  And I was talking with Jamison Green and 27 I actually interviewed Miss Major and it was Miss Major who said this.  She said that at . . . well, 28 when I interviewed her she was 70, so now shes a little older than that, this was a few years 29 ago.  As you age, as a trans person as you age, and this is true really of a trans person of any 30 cultural or racial background because our bodies . . . were more dependent on the health care 31 system as you age.  I mean, we can be healthy but we still become more dependent.  And also, 32 around nursing home placements and things like that, youre 75, 70 and youre still doing the 33 Trans 101s and youre tired.  You dont want to be doing it anymore. 34 
AJ: Exactly. 35 
JI: But you still have to advocate for yourself and . . . 36 
AJ: For your own well-being. 37 
JI: And no one else there to do it.  She was talking about this and she had to do it recently. At the 38 time she was trying to get into an assisted living situation with her father, her father and her 39 wanted to share a space.  The trans issue came up and it wasnt even the trans issue that was 40 questioned, it was her lifestyle around the trans issue.  For example, her dating lifestyle.  They 1 didnt want her going . . . there was restrictions about how late she could stay out and go out. 2 
AJ: For a 70-plus-year-old.   3 
JI: Yes, in the assisted living program.  So she declined acceptance there, but again she had to do 4 the Trans 101 business.  So a question is, as our elders age and we have so many trans people 5 who are in that . . . theyre in it now, theyre living it now, how do we support them?  Theyre 6 tired, theyve been doing the 101s in some cases for 20 years.  And then we have the youth.  I 7 always say man if the youth and the elders could come together, what a great mentorship or 8 something because so many young trans people dont have any support at all and people who 9 understand them and theyre homeless and theyre out on the streets and theyre not able to 10 get jobs.  So, its kind of interesting dichotomy, but I always say the experiences of older trans 11 people and younger trans people are not that much different.  Its manifesting in slightly 12 different ways but the oppressions, the discrimination is still all there.  For those of us who are 13 in the middle somewhere, we might have it a little easier in some respects, if we are able to gain 14 employment, have a stable living environment, these kinds of things. So, that whole idea of it 15 gets better, well it gets better a little bit for some depending on your age, right?  But it doesnt 16 always get better . . . it gets better and may get worse again.  Do you know what I mean?  As you 17 get older, and I dont want to assume that, but were not prepared . . . this community is not 18 prepared for the aging trans population  not this community, but the broader society is just not 19 prepared.  Were going to have to be mainstreamed into . . . there are these LGBT centers or 20 housing programs and things, like we have one here, The Spirit on Lake, but that can only 21 house but a few, small amount of people and so we are going to have to be mainstreamed into 22 more mainstream nursing homes and assisted living programs.  I did so much with the aging 23 population with this film and then the chapter that I wrote for Trans Bodies, Trans Selves that 24 just . . . for many years that was my focus a lot, this aging stuff.  So, you know, and now one of 25 my focus areas personally has been on intimate partner violence, towards trans men in 26 particular, but again on the broader spectrum only because I had personally had an experience 27 some years ago with a partner who was abusive towards me  mentally, emotionally, and 28 eventually it became physical.  I got out of that situation because I had the wherewithal to know 29 it wasnt a good situation for me, although for me it took about eight months to finally be able 30 to move away from that.  I say, Well, gosh, what about the trans person who doesnt have the 31 resources that I have or who still feels so much shame or maybe lower self-esteem because 32 theyre not in a good place with their bodies or their transition?  What will that experience be 33 like for them?  I started to talk to people and started to get more and more trans men emailing 34 me and disclosing about their experiences of this type of trauma.  I was amazed . . . I mean, not 35 amazed but just actually shocked to see that there are more trans men out there than I even 36 thought who were experiencing this.  And so, I started the trans masculine abuse project, its 37 just an online resource at this point and a Facebook page, but people just like having a place to 38 go to read about things. Ill post on there information about intimate partner violence, 39 sometimes more trans related its hard to find stuff.  But it is an issue.  I was trying to go forward 40 with doing more with that, I just havent had a chance to follow-up on it as of late because Im 41 focusing on the Gender Reel stuff right now.   42 
AJ: Sure.  So to the extent that you feel comfortable, Joe, can you tell me a little bit about medical 1 interventions that you have undergone and what was your experience with the medical 2 profession?  Particularly because you are a medical professional yourself. 3 
JI: Yeah, I work in the mental health field.  I am very open in talking about my physical transition. 4 
AJ: Oh good. 5 
JI: Obviously I have been on hormones . . . I started hormones in 2001, so I was on hormones for a 6 long time.  I went off hormones earlier this year for about five months, but Im back on 7 hormones again at a lower dose.  I have not had a hysterectomy or anything like that.  I wanted 8 to give my body a break and also see where it would fall.  I was also having some medical stuff 9 going on, things that I wasnt completely sure if it was related to testosterone or not.  A lot of 10 fatigue, kind of auto-immune type stuff.  Ive done a lot of research and I have found that this is 11 not uncommon for trans men, partially because our adrenal system gets flooded with 12 testosterone and it can cause a lot of these symptoms, though theres not a lot of research 13 being done on it.  So I went off but Im back on a low dose of testosterone, because I do like the 14 way it feels and I do like certain aspects of being on it.  The only medical surgeries that I have 15 had has been top surgery, in which I had a double mastectomy and nipple graft procedure 16 where I had a male chest constructed, and hormones.  I dont intend, personally, to have any 17 lower surgery.  First off, the cost for trans men to have that is extremely high, even though there 18 are some insurance companies that pay for it, its still high.  Also, the process can take a long 19 time, its a series sometimes of five or six surgeries and then the results arent, a lot of times, 20 what you really ideally want.  I, though . . . Im very comfortable . . . my gender dysphoria below 21 is not . . . I dont have a tremendous amount of gender dysphoria below, Im very comfortable 22 with my parts, if you will.  It did take some time getting used to that, getting comfortable with 23 that.  I worked on that within myself just realizing that I had to kind of transcend that because I 24 knew that surgery wasnt going to be an option for me.  And it certainly helps when you have 25 partners, sexual partners, who are open and accepting of that, and when you dont, it can be a 26 more challenging thing. 27 
AJ: Yeah. 28 
JI: Or, in the case of . . . my experience has been with women, because I date predominantly only 29 women, that have had no experience with anything beyond what they would experience with 30 cis men, or, in some cases, cis women if they were queer and with women but may not have 31 ever been with trans men, and we do have slightly different changes down there.  We have . . . it 32 varies from person to person but we get clitoral growth which, in a sense, is like a micro phallus.  33 So, you know, there are some obvious changes that do occur.  But, for me, Im kind of happy 34 where I am with my physical appearance and my physical genitalia and all that.  One big huge 35 fear I had was going bald, which is true of a lot of trans men on testosterone.  So I made efforts 36 to admittedly prevent that  Rogaine and Propecia and I still do it today.  37 
AJ: Really? 38 
JI: Yeah, and Ive managed to keep what I have whereas a lot of my trans masculine friends have 39 gone completely bald.  They look good bald, I just didnt see myself carrying that bald look.  Im 40 vain about my hair.  I had great hair prior to transitioning so, you know, Ive gone and done 1 anything I can to kind of sustain what I have.  Im hoping it will stay. 2 
AJ: You sure have a lot of it. 3 
JI: Ive really tried, it was a really important thing to me.  So much so, that I would have considered 4 hair transplantation if I had to  although thats very expensive.  I actually went for a 5 consultation, which was free, but its about $10,000 . . . it would cost me about $10,000 to have 6 a hair transplant because they charge you per plug, like $1/plug.  You dont realize how many 7 plugs you need to create hair.  So yeah, but no further medical surgeries for me in terms of 8 gender-related surgeries.  I will most likely stay on hormones at a lower dose  at this point, 9 thats my plan.   10 
AJ: Wow.  Where do you see this community in 50 years? 11 
JI: I hope to see it evolve to a much different place.  I hope to see it mainstreamed in a way where 12 being a trans person is looked at and perceived no differently than any other type of person.  13 You know, I hope to see the dating experiences of trans people a lot easier because of the 14 mainstreaming of the experience.  I hope to see that there wont be issues around health care, 15 the disparities that we see just merely because someone is trans, and certainly the 16 intersectionalities between that and race and culture and things like that.  I think it will be a 17 much more evolved . . . well be in a much more evolved place.  I will be, in 50 years I will be in 18 my 90s, so if Im alive it would be great to see.  But I think were going to start seeing even 19 bigger shifts even sooner than that, maybe 10 or 15 years it will be very different than it is now 20 even.  It seems to be happening at a fairly rapid pace, which is good.  I do believe that this 21 experience needs to be mainstreamed, I know that.  And Im not saying mainstreamed in that 22 we want to erase . . . for some people they say, Well, I want to be queer, and Im not saying 23 we want to erase queerness from this experience if thats important to people, but 24 mainstreamed in a way where a trans person can walk into a doctors office anywhere or into a 25 hospital anywhere and not be treated in any way differently than a cis person, make sure that 26 they get the same treatment and level of care as a cis person, even though, lets face it, cis 27 people get . . . the health care system is crap to begin with but thats what I would like to hope 28 will be the case and well see in the future years to come.  I think it will happen, it is happening. 29 
AJ: Its happening.  Anything else you want to share, Joe? 30 
JI: Just that Im really glad that you, Andrea, that youre doing this work, that youre going to be 31 documenting these narratives of people, personal stories, because I think its really important 32 that we have this going forward.  Part of the really important part is documenting our history 33 and weve lost a lot of that history, we hadnt had the opportunity to document it over the years 34 in the same way as the gay and lesbian community has.  And, of course, some of our history has 35 been co-opted by that gay and lesbian movement, such as Stonewall.  I know trans women of 36 color were at Stonewall and have never been given recognition. 37 
AJ: Including Miss Major. 38 
JI: Including Miss Major, that is the one person I know directly.  So, I think that we are playing 39 make-up for that and hopefully through these narratives, if you talk to some older trans folks, 40 that well be able to have that, at least orally, brought into the picture.  So Im just glad that this 1 project is happening and I want to support it in any way I can personally.  So, yeah. 2 
AJ: Well your contribution today has been major, so we thank you. 3 
JI: Well, thank you. 4 
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