   
Tona Brown Narrator   Andrea Jenkins Interviewer 
    
The Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies University of Minnesota 
September 22, 2016 
 
 
   

 
  
The Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story, while providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source material about the transgender community.  The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for current and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public. 
The Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300 individuals over the next three years.  Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and experiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality.  This project will be led by Andrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist.  Andrea brings years of experience working in government, non-profits and LGBT organizations.  If you are interested in being involved in this exciting project, please contact Andrea. 
Andrea Jenkins jenki120@umn.edu (612) 625-4379 
   
 
Andrea Jenkins -AJ 1 
Tona Brown  -TB 2 
 3 
 4 
AJ: So my name is Andrea Jenkins and I am the oral historian for the Transgender Oral History 5 Project and today is September 22, 2016.  Were here at the Minneapolis Institute of Arts and I 6 have the distinct honor and pleasure to interview Ms. Tona Brown today. 7 
TB: Yay!  Thank you.   8 
AJ: So Tona, can you just start out by spelling your name, state your gender identity as it is today, 9 your gender that was assigned at birth, and the pronouns that you use? 10 
TB: Sure.  OK, my name is Tona Brown, T-o-n-a, Brown B-r-o-w-n.  I am a male to female 11 transgender woman, I go by the pronouns she  all feminine pronouns.  Anything else? 12 
AJ: Thats great.  Tona, where are you from?   13 
TB: I am from Alexandria, Virginia.   14 
AJ: Really?  Whats it like living there? 15 
TB: Whew. You know, its a beautiful . . . I love my state even though its conservative and so were 16 always fighting for something as you can imagine.  But its beautiful and because of what I do for 17 a living  traveling and as I mentioned with the drama of traveling, its a place where I can go 18 and just be calm and thats very important for artists, I feel.  19 
AJ: Absolutely.  Did you grow up in Alexandria?   20 
TB: No, I actually grew up in Norfolk, Virginia, which is in what they call Hampton Roads and most 21 people who know it is because of the military.  Its a Navy town, a military town.   22 
AJ: So when did you first realize that you may not be the gender you were assigned at birth? 23 
TB: I would have to say . . . my family realized it before I did so I was very blessed in that regard 24 because even though they didnt understand what being transgender was, some of my family is 25 from rural areas and we didnt have that language.  So they realized it very early and I was also 26 blessed because my mother, who didnt know what was going on, decided to do the research 27 when I was very young.  I want to say she said she knew I was different from three or four.  28 Then, of course, I always tell people I was the Double Dutch champion and I did all this stuff that 29 I just thought was very natural for myself and knowing, as you all talk about, the binary and all 30 that kind of stuff, it was totally foreign to everyone around me.   31 
AJ: Yeah, because those are considered girl activities, its not what little boys do. 32 
TB: Oh, extremely.  Yeah, I didnt do contact sports, I hated gym.  And now I love to work out but I 33 hated the gym.  I hated a lot of different things that people thought was normal for a young 34 boy.  And so my mother kept saying, Something is different, something is different.  So she 35 did her best, the Lord rest in peace.  She did her best to keep me away from people who were 36 not positive because that was in my family as well, it was a very religious Southern family so you 1 can only imagine some of the discrimination and stuff that I went through as a young person 2 growing up.  But my mother said, What youre not going to do is embarrass the family.  So, 3 you know, youre going to be who you are and youre going to walk with your head up and Im 4 going to teach you how to come into your womanhood at a very young . . . teenage years.  So I 5 was very blessed, because she was a youth evangelist so she could have done it way different 6 and I want to thank her.  I always pay homage to my mom because thats . . . I believe with her 7 and my aunts, they are why Im the woman that I am today.   8 
AJ: Wow.  And I know we have some parents of transgender and gender-creative children in the 9 audience today and the research shows that family support, parental support, is so important to 10 the . . .  11 
TB: Development. 12 
AJ:  . . . success and development of trans and gender non-conforming identified people and so Im 13 just so thrilled to hear that your mother was so supportive. 14 
TB: Yes, I was blessed  very, very blessed.  She had a lot of fight from other family members as you 15 can imagine.  But she just was a very strong and dynamic lady, and I use that term because in 16 the south we have how ladies are so she was a very dynamic lady, very forward thinking.  I dont 17 know where it came from but Im very, very blessed.   18 
AJ: Absolutely.  So was there bullying in school?  I know that you mentioned that there were some 19 challenges within your family, but what about in the broader community?   20 
TB: I did face some violence in school unfortunately.  Like I said in gym locker rooms sort of thing 21 where I had to fight, because youre not going to touch Tona.  So that was . . . lets not get it 22 twisted.  So I went through those sort of things, but again because my aunts were fighters and 23 my grandmother was a fighter, what they decided to do was to teach me how to defend myself.  24 It wasnt cower away, I just dont know that language  and not to say that people who arent as 25 strong naturally that there is something wrong with them, but we werent allowed to be that 26 way.  You needed to learn how to defend yourself and learn how to deal with the stuff that my 27 people knew I was going to go through.   28 
AJ: So, Tona, I know that you are now a world class, world renowned mezzo-soprano musician, 29 violinist, what role did music play in your early development?   30 
TB: Well, you know, I dont think I would have transitioned early enough if it wasnt for my voice.  31 My voice was always an issue, ever since I was a teenager.  I started off singing in the church, as 32 we do down there especially, and I was a boy soprano  a very high soprano, very high soprano.  33 So I started with that, of course, and then I said . . . after my voice changed a little bit, I was like, 34 Oh, I must have lost my high notes, why do I still want to sing?  Just being dramatic.  So I went 35 into playing the violin and I could just really get into letting go with the violin and my mom was 36 saying, Oh, youre not going to sing anymore?  No, no, no  my voice has changed.  I was a 37 very dramatic child and I cannot . . . I think I would annoy myself with the type of child I was.  38 Like I said I was Double Dutch champion, I was skipping around and dancing.  I think thats 39 fabulous, like I see young people who are able to be themselves and it brings me to tears.  But 40 my voice was the deciding factor.  In college I started to sing again because all of my friends 1 were also in the opera program.  My roommate was a phenomenal tenor, he has since passed 2 away  rest in peace, and he kept saying, Look, you have this really beautiful voice, why arent 3 you singing?  And I would go into auditions and it was always an issue about your gender, like, 4 What are you going to sing?  So I would get up there and sing and they would be like, Whats 5 going on?  But they couldnt negate that there was a talent there no matter where it was, so I 6 had to go where my voice was.  So through my voice I decided that I needed to live in my 7 complete self and be me.  It was really through my voice.   8 
AJ: What challenges did you face being able to perform at the level that you do based on your 9 gender?   10 
TB: Well, first of all, Im primarily a classical artist, so classical music is pretty conservative.  Not the 11 artists ourselves  there are some freaks and everything.  I mean, my friends would be in this 12 room  theyre very liberal, theyre very olden, theyre amazing people and in classical music.  13 But those who run it, those who are paying for it are not.  And so you do have to deal with the 14 politics and what I learned to do was, one day I was asked by GLAD  you all know GLAD. 15 
AJ: Gay, Lesbian, Anti-Defamation . . .  16 
TB: Alliance Against Defamation  thank you. 17 
AJ: Thank you. 18 
TB: They asked me to be in the local paper because at the time marriage equality hadnt been 19 passed and all that, and so they asked me to come out and tell people that I was trans and Id 20 been touring and stuff, and after doing that, I got calls around the world from sopranos, mezzos 21  people Id sung with, people I hadnt sung with, Oh my God, you might have just ruined your 22 career.   23 
AJ: Oh really. 24 
TB: Oh, it was huge, it was huge. 25 
AJ: So people didnt know your identity.   26 
TB: No, and it was . . . well, they did  they were my friends.  But they just kept saying, Why did you 27 have to tell anyone, why do you need to tell anyone?  Why shouldnt I tell someone?  That was 28 my point.  There is nothing wrong with being transgender.  And so I was kind of offended but I 29 understood where they were coming from but Im also a realistic person and I said, You know 30 what?  That means you need to learn more than what it is to be a performer, you need to also 31 understand business, you need to also understand that you need to put on your own events.  32 And so thats what I did in my mid-20s. I just thought if I started my own ensemble, a string 33 ensemble and I just started grabbing people saying, Hey, you want to sing, you want to play, 34 what do you want to do?  I started doing events and then I had no desire to be a part of any 35 organization so I didnt go into the symphony where you still have politics, I didnt go into the 36 opera companies.  Now they contact me now.   37 
AJ: OK, there you go.   38 
TB: So again, you can do whatever you put your mind to, even if you have to do it in a different way.  1 You can be successful and thats what I try to share with everyone because, I mean, of course 2 there is challenges but you can do it  you just might have to pay for some things yourself.  You 3 might have to . . . in fact, my Carnegie Hall debut, we didnt have any major funding or anything 4 like that.  It was a community effort to put together something that was LGBT at Carnegie Hall.  5 So we did Crowd Funding, I took some extra jobs.  We did what we had to do and it was such a 6 successful event because the community showed up and Im very grateful. 7 
AJ: What was that experience like as a performer on one of the largest stages in the world. 8 
TB: Well, I know I was trying to keep my emotions together that night.  The repertoire that I chose 9 was Negro spirituals and African American composers because I just dont see that on the 10 national stages like we should.  A lot of just purely American music you dont really see on the 11 stages.  So I said, You know, I could get up here and do a whole bunch of things that everyone 12 else does, or I could make this historical event really worth it for my audience and for myself.  13 And so many people were very, very emotional  I mean visibly crying and all that.  But for me, it 14 was just . . . it was another venue, just to be honest.  And thats not belittling Carnegie Hall or 15 anything. 16 
AJ: Because you have played at the White House as well, right? 17 
TB: Yes.  Well, that is one of the other problems . . . you know, Im so glad youre doing this oral 18 history.  My debut singing for Barack Obama wasnt at the White House.  It actually was at the 19 Sheraton in New York City at a big LGBT fundraiser sort of event, but it wasnt at the White 20 House.  But I did sing at the Department of Veteran Affairs.  So people, when they see all my 21 pictures they just put two-and-two together  they see the American flag and theyre like, Oh, 22 it must have been at the White House.  No. 23 
AJ: Well Im glad you cleared that up. 24 
TB: I always try to.  I always try to keep it real, to the best of my ability.   25 
AJ: Did you meet Barack? 26 
TB: Of course, yes.  They give you time afterwards and I have my photo with him and they give you 27 time to come in and to speak with him and it was just another very emotional time to say, Im 28 living in my truth and all of these people told me that I could not be successful living in my truth, 29 look at this.   30 
AJ: Thats incredible. 31 
TB: Thank you.   32 
AJ: So, youve been making music and creating art, but when you described your experience at 33 Carnegie Hall and the repertoire that you chose to play, it sounds a little bit like you are an 34 activist or an advocate, so talk about that a little bit. 35 
TB: Im really glad you brought that up because I never saw myself as one.  The community song is 36 one.  People had to educate me that being in front of so many people I need to understand 37 what is going on.  I lived a pretty sheltered life so I didnt know a lot of things before I came out 38 as a transgender artist.  I wasnt outed, I never kept it a secret from those I cared about or 1 anything, it was just, Im here to audition, do what I have to do and leave.  Thats what it was.  2 It was never from shame.  But my friends in Baltimore, some of them are leading activists that 3 some of you all know, they were saying, Well, Tona, your existence is, as Crispin was saying, 4 Is very political, youre going against the binary.  I had to learn all this activism talk and all that.  5 Im just an artist  I just sing and play, thats what I do.  I went to school for it.  I think the other 6 thing that I want people to know is that when you see people doing phenomenal things or 7 theyre doing things that are going against the grain, its not always because theyre trying to 8 make a statement, sometimes its because this is what you love to do.  Am I supposed to stop 9 because Im transgender?  That was the attitude I had.  Everyone kept saying, You know, youre 10 opening up these waves and these magazines and news.  And Im looking at them like, Well 11 this is what Ive always done.  Yes, Im doing it and Im a transgender person, but I went to 12 school for this and this is what I do.  I dont allow the hoopla of the media and all that kind of 13 stuff to kind of over inflate my ego in that sense.  Its just what I love to do and I hope that my 14 audiences can feel that  that comes from a real place. 15 
AJ: Tona, completely to the extent that you feel comfortable . . .  16 
TB: Sure. 17 
AJ: And if you dont want to answer this question, dont answer it at all.  What medical 18 interventions have you undergone in your journey to become . . .? 19 
TB: Just hormonal, just hormonal. I think that was another big misconception, I want to say, in the 20 media was that in order to have a mezzo-soprano voice that I had to get some kind of surgery on 21 my cords or something, which I think is absurd.  Because if you look through history with the 22 castrati, there was music written for people that have my voice type.   23 
AJ: Sure. 24 
TB: So Im not the first, Im not going to be the last. 25 
AJ: Castrati  can you explain to our audience what that is? 26 
TB: They were eunuchs or castrati  unfortunately they didnt have the will.  They were young boys 27 who actually were extremely talented and they were castrated to help their families  really, 28 thats what it really was all about, compared to what you read and the glamorized version of it.  29 So these young boys, usually between the ages of 10 . . . Ill say 8-12, some were a little later, 30 unfortunately, were taken from their families  their families basically sold them to the church 31 at that time.  It was really big in the Catholic Church and they were the prima donnas of their era 32  for 400 years.  So most of the music that I sing and when Im looking at people and theyre so 33 in shock, Im like, No, there were people like me, people who had voices like mine.  And so for 34 me transitioning hasnt been about what surgeries you have but rather understanding 35 everything around you and whats inside and getting the counseling, which Im constantly telling 36 people that is very important  not that there is something wrong with you, but so that you can 37 deal with society and what society is going to say to you or how theyre going to act towards 38 you. 39 
AJ: Yes, thats a huge hurdle that I dont think a lot of people consider as people are on this journey 1 towards . . .  2 
TB: Yes, its imperative, its imperative. You need to have a strength about yourself and even with 3 your family that . . . there are some family members that I just dont associate with.  And its not 4 even . . . now, of course, everybody wants to be your friend but its from . . . its from just 5 knowing that you come from that theology or ideology that I dont want to be affiliated with and 6 if you have an issue with me just because Im transgender, when all my other cousins are doing 7 all kinds of things.  Im blessing millions of people with my art and speaking and trying to do the 8 right thing and if you cant look past that just because Im trans, then thats your loss  not mine.   9 
AJ: Absolutely.  Tona, what do you think the agenda for the transgender community should be 10 moving forward? 11 
TB: I think we have to get to a point where, and Im kind of glad that you asked this because I dont 12 think I ever would have brought this up, but I think were at a place where were getting a lot of 13 attention and were going to see a lot of us be exploited.  Can I say that? 14 
AJ: Absolutely, speak your truth, honey. 15 
TB: I have so many friends that I love and I see that theyre beautiful, theyre talented but this 16 attention is becoming the thing, its becoming . . . I would say an obsession that people are 17 having and youre seeing it in the media today.  Theyre being exploited, theyre being used, and 18 I would just like for the transgender community to understand that everybody doesnt need to 19 be in front of the camera all the time, on the mic all the time  that you need to take the time to 20 learn, like I did, because I didnt know a lot of things when I first started performing and 21 speaking out about trans issues. I think we need to really, really take a moment and say that the 22 glass ceiling is opening but its just a crack and whats starting to happen is that the media 23 knows that you are a hot thing, thats it  youre the hot thing, youre the hot thing right now, 24 were the hot topic  we can sell for them but at whose expense though.  And so I think that if I 25 could give any advice towards the transgender community is to be more cautious, especially 26 when youre dealing with the media  be more cautious, theyre not your friend.  Ive had a lot 27 of very positive experiences with the media and I have people that contact me regularly to know 28 what Im doing, but its a very select group of people that I talk to and deal with.  Even recently I 29 was asked about a Broadway show and I was so excited because I was like, Ahhh, Broadway, of 30 course. And that would really, really just be amazing, but the role I had to sign a waiver to be 31 naked  well, partial nudity and show my entire derriere.  No, no, no  thats not going to 32 happen.  Now to those that thats OK, theres nothing wrong with it. But for me and my brand, 33 and you also need to know your brand people  youve got to know your brand, thats why 34 people dont need to just jump in the media without understanding what the machine of the 35 media is.  And that takes a while, that takes a while.  So thats my biggest advice right now for 36 the transgender community  dont be used.   37 
AJ: Dont be used  very sage advice.   38 
TB: Dont be used. 39 
AJ: Tona, I want to just thank you so much for willing to be a part of this process, for being here to 1 share your art and beauty, and what I will call activism for you. 2 
TB: Oh, thank you. 3 
AJ: So can we give Tona a big round of applause.   4 
TB: Thank you guys, thank you. 5 

