   
Ryan Li Dahlstrom Narrator   Andrea Jenkins Interviewer 
    
The Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies University of Minnesota 
March 28, 2016 
 
 
   

 
  
The Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story, while providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source material about the transgender community.  The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for current and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public. 
The Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300 individuals over the next three years.  Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and experiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality.  This project will be led by Andrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist.  Andrea brings years of experience working in government, non-profits and LGBT organizations.  If you are interested in being involved in this exciting project, please contact Andrea. 
Andrea Jenkins jenki120@umn.edu (612) 625-4379 
   
 
Andrea Jenkins -AJ 1 
Ryan Li Dahlstrom  -RLD 2 
 3 
 4 
AJ: So, hello.  My name is Andrea Jenkins and I am the oral historian for the Transgender Oral 5 History Project at the University of Minnesota.  Today is March 28, 2016, and I am here with 6 Ryan Li Dahlstrom, a long, long time friend and comrade, and just amazing person on the planet.  7 And so were going to do a little interview today.  Were here in Minneapolis and Ryan Li, if you 8 could just state your name, maybe spell it just for our transcriber who is going to be transcribing 9 our comments today, and your gender identity as it is today and your gender assigned at birth, 10 and the pronouns that you use. 11 
RLD: Cool, thank you so much Andrea, its great to see you  thanks for having me. 12 
AJ: Its so good to see you.  Thank you.  13 
RLD: The appreciation for you and your friendship and the comradery all these years is appreciated.  14 So, yeah, its an honor to be here two days before my 35th birthday. 15 
AJ: Is that right, youve got a birthday coming up?   16 
RLD: Yup, Ill be turning 35. 17 
AJ: Happy, happy birthday.   18 
RLD: Thank you.  So my name is Ryan Li Dahlstrom.  I prefer to go by Ryan Li as my first name.  Ryan Li 19 is spelled R-y-a-n L-i and then Dahlstrom, D-a-h-l-s-t-r-o-m.   20 
AJ: Oh cool. 21 
RLD: You wanted me to spell it, right? 22 
AJ: Yeah, yeah.  Thank you so much. 23 
RLD: Thank you to whomever is transcribing. 24 
AJ: Thanks, Mary! 25 
RLD: What else?  So yeah, I was born here in Minnesota  Duluth and grew up here.  I go by he and 26 him.  I currently identify as trans or trans masculine, sometimes I think Im pretty gender 27 fabulous so I might sometimes use that word, gender fabulous. 28 
AJ: You are. 29 
RLD: I think were all gender fabulous in our different ways. 30 
AJ: Gender fabulous as an identity, I love that.   31 
RLD: Yeah, I was a female assigned at birth. 32 
AJ: Thank you, thank you so much.  Ryan Li, what is your earliest memory in life?   33 
RLD: Oh, thats a tough one . . . earliest memory in life?  I dont know if it was my earliest but its one 1 that comes to mind and just happens to be gender related. 2 
AJ: Sure  and it doesnt have to be gender related.  If it is gender related thats awesome, but it 3 doesnt have to be.   4 
RLD: I have a spotty memory from when I was a kid but one of the things I remember is being pretty 5 young  I think I was kindergarten-ish and I was always really into sports.  My dad was really into 6 being kind of coach, either informally or we played at the Y. So I played . . . I think it was up in 7 Crystal, Minnesota, I played at the YMCA and I was on a basketball team.  I remember being kind 8 of medium-height on the team but there was like two girls on the team . . . or no, I was the only 9 girl on the team and it was all boys.  I remember a lot of the boys teasing me because I was the 10 only girl, but also I was kind of one of the better players so it was an interesting kind of . . . I felt 11 like I fit but didnt fit.  I was kind of just having fun . . . I didnt really care, I dont even think I was 12 that conscious of it but I really liked playing sports. 13 
AJ: But you remember this sort of dichotomy of being teased because you were a girl but also sort 14 of being . . . I dont know, maybe celebrated because you were a better player. 15 
RLD: Yeah, yeah, yeah.  And I think it was a way that me and my dad really connected as a young 16 person  my interest in being physically active.  I played a lot of sports. 17 
AJ: Thats super cool.  18 
RLD: Yeah. 19 
AJ: I didnt know you were an athlete, per se. 20 
RLD: I wasnt necessarily . . . yeah, it was more of a hobby. 21 
AJ: Thats what it is for all school kids basically  until you start getting paid for it, but that doesnt 22 really happen until the pros.  Thats cool.  Where did you go to elementary school? 23 
RLD: Meadow Lake  its in New Hope.   24 
AJ: OK.  So you were born in Duluth? 25 
RLD: Yes. 26 
AJ: And then your family moved to the Twin Cities. 27 
RLD: Yeah, I lived there until I was 2 and then we moved to Brooklyn Park.  So I grew up in Brooklyn 28 Park.   29 
AJ: OK.  Any memories of Duluth at all? 30 
RLD: Those are actually where I have a lot of childhood memories.  I was very close to my 31 grandmother so we would go up there in the summers a lot.  I spent a lot of summers up there. 32 
AJ: So your grandmother still lives in Duluth. 33 
RLD: Shes still up there.  So as a kid we would go up and spend a lot of summer time with her, play 1 with all the neighbor kids  it was definitely the kind of place . . . the retreat place I wanted to go 2 to as a kid.   3 
AJ: Nice, nice.  But you went to . . .    4 
RLD: Robbinsdale Cooper was my high school. 5 
AJ: So you went to school kind of all of your . . .  6 
RLD: Brooklyn Park, New Hope area.   7 
AJ: What was school like for you? 8 
RLD: I always like to say I was very . . . I was the oldest grandchild on both sides of my family. 9 
AJ: Cool.  I actually have that very same experience in life  the first grandchild for both of my 10 grandparents.  The first child, clearly, for my parents.   11 
RLD: Yeah, my parents were kind of on the younger side.  I think my mom was 24 when she had me, 12 now I feel like not as many people have kids at that age overall  or at least my peers.  So yeah, 13 it was very celebrated.  I would say I was kind of the overachieving Asian, overachieving Gaysian 14 kind of kid who was really involved in everything.  It was really kind of my outlet to excel at 15 school, to get involved in . . . I played the drums, I was in student government, I played a lot of 16 sports.  I was just kind of involved in everything.   17 
AJ: Were you popular? 18 
RLD: You know, its funny.  I never really thought of myself as popular.  I knew everyone and people 19 kind of knew me because I was involved in a lot of stuff, but I didnt have a crew.  I kind of would 20 fly a little solo or as I got older my friend, Danny, that I mentioned before  him and I were 21 student council president and vice president so we joked we ran the school.  We were just really 22 involved and kind of did our own thing. 23 
AJ: So you were well known. 24 
RLD: Yeah.  And my parents were pretty strict so I wasnt going out and rebelling or anything like that.  25 I had to wait until I left the house to do any of that kind of . . .  26 
AJ: Thats interesting.  Were you . . . did your identity play a role in sort of how school was for you 27 at all? 28 
RLD: Yeah, I think for sure.  29 
AJ: I guess the real question would be did you experience bullying or anything?  But I dont know if 30 you were out in school. 31 
RLD: Yeah, yeah.  Definitely not.  We didnt talk about sex, sexuality or any of that kind of stuff 32 growing up.  So I dont think I had a consciousness . . . I dont think I was young and was like, 33 Oh, I know . . .  I didnt have language, for sure, but I think I always felt different in some way 34 and I think part of that is being mixed race and being part Chinese and part white and kind of 35 often getting messages . . . people would often say growing up, Well your mom is so beautiful.  1 My mom is Asian.  Your sister looks just like her.  And then theyd be like, You look like your 2 dad.  I have the light eyes, a little lighter skin, so there was a lot of those kind of early messages 3 like race and gender wise where I kind of didnt really feel like I fit but also I was kind of more 4 associated with the masculine and also the kind of white side of my family.  So, but I also always 5 identified as mixed, I think  or part Chinese at least.  So I think there was some of that.  And I 6 had a mix of friends  like racially.  I had a decent crew of Asian friends, some white, some other 7 races.  So it wasnt like I wasnt around it in school but I think because I was sort of . . . I kind of 8 felt like I was kind of a loner a little bit and just kind of did my own thing.  Its hard to know how 9 much of that was gender or race or different things. 10 
AJ: Yeah  no, I totally hear that. 11 
RLD: But I think I actually got bullied more as a younger person because I was kind of the good 12 student and so I kind of got positioned as a teachers pet, or, Youre doing everything right, 13 that kind of thing.  So I remember in elementary getting bullied a little bit and I was definitely 14 not really a fighter at that time so I would just kind of deal with it and do my own thing but I 15 wasnt really fighting back  I was just kind of like . . . yeah.  And then as I got older, I think, I 16 didnt really experience the bullying in high school because I think I was more . . . I got bullying in 17 elementary and middle school.  But then I think come high school I was . . . I think I was also kind 18 of gender conforming enough where I wasnt really bullied for that, it was just more of being 19 different in other ways.   20 
AJ: So you . . . this narrative that youre sharing right now sort of not necessarily dispels but it 21 certainly is a different narrative from one that is shared by a lot of trans and gender non-22 conforming folks around, I knew I was . . . at birth and then . . .  Because Ive talked to a lot of 23 people and theyre just like, You know, when I was three people were calling me a little boy 24 and then when I became 15 I was going into the mens bathroom, and things like that.  But that 25 wasnt your story. 26 
RLD: It kind of happened later for me.  Like I said, the consciousness around it  and like I said, I also 27 dont remember a lot of things.  As Ive come out and Ive talked to my family a little bit, my 28 mother tells me she remembers . . . she kind of said she knew actually.   29 
AJ: Really? 30 
RLD: And she said that when I was very young, I think it was kindergarten, I didnt want to wear 31 dresses.  There were things . . . I dont actually remember that.   32 
AJ: Right. 33 
RLD: So she said that there was a lot of things that she kind of had a queue that I was kind of wanting 34 to be different in some way, but I didnt necessarily . . . I guess I sort of remember wanting to 35 wear pants, or she said I wanted to go to the boys section and wear corduroys.  I didnt really 36 remember that but I guess it probably did show up a little bit in me being a tomboy.  I always 37 played with a lot of the boys and I played sports.  To me, that doesnt even necessarily mean 38 someone is trans or even queer. 39 
AJ: No  absolutely it doesnt. 1 
RLD: Its kind of just thats where I felt comfortable, I guess, at the time.  And I will say on that whole 2 narrative thing, its like I really respect . . . thats obviously . . . everybody has their own story 3 and narrative but its something I kind of want to consciously fight against a little bit too because 4 it feels like it fits a dominant narrative that makes it easier for kind of a mainstream to 5 understand trans people. 6 
AJ: To understand, right  exactly.  7 
RLD: And Im like its not always that simple. I want to live in a world where we can actually . . .  8 
AJ: I absolutely just love that, which is why Im trying to . . .  9 
RLD: I have a kid who Im like chosen family with his family and hes . . . I think hes seven now.  But 10 hes very gender fabulous, he has long hair, is fine with he pronouns but most people always 11 think of him as a girl, or see him as a girl.   12 
AJ: Right. 13 
RLD: And his parents are just supportive of him being who he is and dressing like he is.  And who 14 knows, someday, what that will mean for him.  I like to see that as . . . like as an adult seeing a 15 younger kid be able to be supported and not have to pick something until they really know what 16 they are and what they want to express. 17 
AJ: I think thats critically important.  I think its important for us to hear differing narratives around 18 that  like you classified it, dominant sort of comforting story like, Oh my God, you knew you 19 were a girl since age 3 and how horrible it must have been living in this other body, kind of 20 thing.  So Im going to . . . as a straight ally, Im going to help you because youve had such a 21 miserable . . . When its like, No, I was a great student, I was well liked and then as I got older I 22 became more introspective.  So when did you come out? 23 
RLD: Well, I was in high school and kind of in the middle of high school I started having a decent 24 number of queer friends, partially probably because I was playing sports and other folks were 25 kind of identifying as bi-sexual or lesbian or queer.  Some of us joke, There must have been 26 something in the water or something, because there was so many of us  there actually was a 27 good amount of us.  This was before GSAs or any of that was around.  We actually had this 28 group that the chemical dependency counselor put together that was very hush-hush, it was like 29 this private group.  And so we would go and we would just talk.  Id have a couple friends go 30 with me and kind of be there as allies.  Later in life they actually have come out as gay, but they 31 would come with me and just support me. 32 
AJ: And wonder why they were going to these meetings. 33 
RLD: Names shall remain nameless.   34 
AJ: Absolutely. 35 
RLD: And yeah, and so then, like I said, I was pretty involved and people knew me and whatever. So I 36 was getting ready to write the senior class speech for graduation and I went to a counselor of 37 mine who was . . . looking back I didnt realize it but I kind of gathered that she was probably a 1 lesbian  she was kind of butch presenting.  I went to her and just said, What do I do?  I kind of 2 want to use this in part of my speech and all this stuff.  And she basically told me, Do not ever 3 tell anyone, do not come out, and just kind of told me I should never tell anybody.  I think right 4 after that then someone in that group outed me, even though it was supposed to be a 5 confidential group.  So it then became kind of out at school, my parents found out because my 6 sister was younger at the time.  It didnt go well  my parents werent at all open. 7 
AJ: They were not supportive. 8 
RLD: No.  I just lied and told them, No, Im not queer, no that person isnt my girlfriend.  Because I 9 was dating somebody at the time and they kind of figured it out.  I just had to kind of repress it 10 and kind of just put it in  or not really be out about it.   11 
AJ: Sure. 12 
RLD: So it wasnt until I went to college and I left home that I was able to start to really think about 13 what it really meant for myself in terms of my gender and my sexuality and just being more free 14 to be kind of who I was outside of my parents house. 15 
AJ: Where did you go to college? 16 
RLD: I ended up going to Concordia College in Moorhead for one year.  I got a full ride.  I was the first 17 to go to college in my family and it was a big deal.  My dad is Lutheran so it was like . . . he was 18 very proud that I was going to go to this Lutheran school.  But, you know, it was a struggle.  It 19 was a school where they actually said they didnt have any gay or lesbian students  they said it 20 was friends of lesbians and gays on campus so the local group was called FLAG.  21 
AJ: OK. 22 
RLD: Meanwhile, there was a lot of us. 23 
AJ: Even though there were no gay and lesbian people to be friends with? 24 
RLD: Yeah, right. 25 
AJ: Wow, OK.  Ghost friends of gay and lesbian people.  And they werent even friends with the bi- 26 and the trans people. 27 
RLD: Yeah, we didnt even exist.  So I lasted up there for about a year.  I got involved with some of the 28 other student groups in organizing  that was more of the tri-college area, so North Dakota 29 State, Moorhead State, and Concordia have some different groups that were across the 30 colleges.  So I got to meet people a little bit outside of the more conservative Lutheran school.  31 But it was a really white place, a much smaller town than I was used to and after a year I just 32 really wasnt happy.  So I transferred to the University of Minnesota in the Twin Cities.  And I 33 think it was around that time that then I found . . . I met other people who were performing as 34 drag kings and queens  more kings.  I think I knew of drag queens but I actually never knew of 35 drag kings.  So I started going to a lot of the bars here, underage. 36 
AJ: Oh wow- OK. 37 
RLD: I dont know if my parents, or whoever watches this, knows that.  But there was Lucys back in 1 the day and Club Metro. 2 
AJ: Yeah, I remember Lucys in St. Paul.  Club Metro in St. Paul  yeah. 3 
RLD: So I just started meeting different people and I ended up starting to perform at a couple of the . 4 . .  5 
AJ: Is that right? 6 
RLD: I think it was mostly Metro I performed at and kind of met some people who were a little bit 7 older. 8 
AJ: So you were a drag king?   9 
RLD: Yeah, so I did drag.  I think that . . .  10 
AJ: I never knew that about you. 11 
RLD: My Minnesota accent comes out with the drag.  Yeah, yeah.  I think it was one of the first few 12 times that I felt more of a creative outlet expression and it really actually helped me figure out 13 my gender, honestly.  I started kind of performing this gender and then I realized that I actually . 14 . . I was realizing that I felt more comfortable in that gender.  So that was definitely a big part of 15 my kind of then understanding of being trans and being gender non-conforming. 16 
AJ: So your process to gender exploration, if you will. 17 
RLD: Yeah.   18 
AJ: Wow.  So how long would you say you sort of performed or do you still perform? 19 
RLD: A few years.  No, not so much now.  A few years . . . not that long.  And I think the bar scene just 20 wasnt the thing I wanted to end up in.  And so, I think then there were things like . . . what was 21 it, Vulva Riot and Hot Bed later.   22 
AJ: And then there was . . . did you ever get involved with Gender . . . ? 23 
RLD: Well, Gender Blur.  Yeah, I was one of the founders of Gender Blur. 24 
AJ: Right, exactly. 25 
RLD: I think I might have performed there probably  yeah, I probably did perform at Gender Blur, 26 which was one of those times . . .  27 
AJ: You kind of stage managed a lot of those . . .  28 
RLD: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I did a lot of stage managing for the different shows, but at that time I was like 29 the volunteer coordinator for Gender Blur  when we first started.  Im pretty sure I did perform 30 at least once or twice there. 31 
AJ: Who was all involved with the founding of Gender Blur? 32 
RLD: From what I remember, I dont want to leave anybody out but my memory is foggy because its 1 been a while, but I remember people like Max Gries, Lane . . . I forget their last name now, Lane 2 McKiernan or something like that.   3 
AJ: Yes, yes  Lane McKiernan.   4 
RLD: So Max, Lane, Grady . . . 5 
AJ: Grady Shapiro. 6 
RLD: Grady Shapiro. 7 
AJ: Grady Lee. 8 
RLD: Oh yeah, Grady Lee now.  Cian McDonald. 9 
AJ: I dont quite remember Cian.   10 
RLD: But definitely those are some folks.  I mean you were around back then too  remember thats 11 probably when we met.   12 
AJ: Yeah. 13 
RLD: But in terms of that initial group of people, thats at least some of the people I remember.  And 14 then there were other people like Henry Schneiderman and other people I met through it.  And 15 then, I think . . . what was I thinking?  Yeah, so thats . . . 16 
AJ: So that was one of your performance venues, but also a creative trans organization.   17 
RLD: Yeah, and I definitely remember it feeling like really transformative at that point in my life 18 because it really felt like a lot of us, and at that time I wasnt in touch with my family at all, so 19 there were a lot of us who I think were really creating kind of community and family for one 20 another through . . . you know, theres a lot of people that would come to that space that I 21 remember well  older trans women from northern Minnesota who couldnt dress as 22 themselves anywhere else in their lives but would come three, four, five hours to Gender Blur, 23 get dressed there and be who they are in this space.  And I remember just thinking - wow, what 24 a privilege I had at that time to mostly be supported to be who I was and not feel like I had to be 25 kind of living two different lives or be hidden.  And at the same time a lot of us getting to 26 connect around, you know, the challenges with families and challenges with being who we are, 27 in different ways and different challenges.   28 
AJ: That was amazing that you guys created that kind of space. 29 
RLD: Yeah. 30 
AJ: How long did Gender Blur exist?  About four years?  Five Years? 31 
RLD: You know, I cant quit remember.  Im so bad.  I think at least that long and then toward the end 32 I feel like they were really trying to transform . . . like move from just sort of a community 33 building, creative/social to more like lets really address some of the different intersections of 34 oppression and race and class and different things that, I think, were coming up.  One thing, 35 also, I think they were really good at the beginning of talking about disability justice and really 1 trying to make it an accessible space.  So, for me, it was a big learning curve to be able to do that 2 in community with a lot of different kinds of people and bodies and needs and how do we co-3 exist in this space together. 4 
AJ: So there became this political analysis around it too? 5 
RLD: Right, totally  yeah, yeah, yeah.  I think at first it started more social and I definitely think it was 6 trying to grow into something more political in nature. 7 
AJ: And I would argue to say that it actually did become the Minnesota Transgender Health 8 Coalition.  Or . . . maybe Gender Blur did not necessarily become that but many of the founders 9 of Gender Blur . . . 10 
RLD: Totally, yeah. 11 
AJ:  . . . shifted into the creation of the Minnesota Transgender Health Coalition. 12 
RLD: And I was around during that time still.  I remember we put out a survey, it was one of the first 13 surveys of trans people in Minnesota and we did a lot of outreach at Pride.  So I think there was 14 some kind of . . . yeah, definitely some crossover between those two organizations and kind of 15 really trying to better address . . . because I think also what was happening very informally with 16 Gender Blur was people being like sharing recommendations about doctors or therapists or how 17 are you accessing hormones.  So there was a lot of that sort of resource sharing and so I think it 18 kind of made sense to figure out other means to really address that at a structural level as well 19 as a community referral way. 20 
AJ: Yeah. And you dont have a sense of when Gender Blur kind of really started?   21 
RLD: I think it was like 2000.   22 
AJ: That sounds about right. 23 
RLD: I remember I drew the first flyer for it before we did any type of graphic design.  I was like, 24 Well, I have decent handwriting.  I think I still have it actually. 25 
AJ: Do you still have that? 26 
RLD: Yeah, I saved a lot of stuff.   27 
AJ: Ryan Li, if there is ever a chance that you . . .  28 
RLD: I actually just found a bunch of stuff, I archived a bunch of stuff I can send you. 29 
AJ: Oh wow. 30 
RLD: Back from 202, I have a ton of stuff from 202 and a ton of stuff from Gender Blur. 31 
AJ: It would be amazing to be able to maintain that in the archives and then you could access it 32 whenever you want to but a broader community of people can access those things  particularly 33 your hand drawn Gender Blur. 34 
RLD: I dont know. It was pre-logo so we were still trying to figure out what the logo would be, who 1 could make that, and where do we get the resources.   2 
AJ: Ryan Li, Ive got to have that. 3 
RLD: Ill find it, I think I still have it. 4 
AJ: Ill pay for the shipping. 5 
RLD: Oh stop. 6 
AJ: Im serious.   7 
RLD: Its my donation to what youre trying to do.   8 
AJ: That would be amazing to get that, absolutely  and all of those documents.  And just to let you 9 know, we actually just got the papers from TYSN, which you were deeply involved in as well, 10 serving as TYSNs first ED, right? 11 
RLD: I think, technically, the second.  There was somebody there before me for a short period of 12 time.   13 
AJ: Really?   14 
RLD: But I was there when . . . basically helped make the move from being a program of 202 to 15 moving TYSN to . . . TYSN is Trans Youth Support Network, just for whoever is listening. 16 
AJ: Right.  No, actually I was just going to ask you to say what is TYSN and kind of give, from your 17 perspective  and you were there creating the mission statement and all of that, as was I.  But 18 for people who are watching, what is TYSN?  What is the Transgender Youth Support Network 19 and what did it mean to this community? 20 
RLD: My sense of TYSN was, or Trans Youth Support Network  we could be turning the camera 21 around and you could be interviewed too.   22 
AJ: Yeah, but this is not that. 23 
RLD: Yeah, I know.  Next one, I hope someone is going to interview you.  I remember at the time I was 24 working at District 202, which was the Queer Youth Center where Andrea and I got a lot of time, 25 a lot of coffee time  talking at that coffee bar about all the things happening in Minneapolis. 26 
AJ: Absolutely, thats where we met.   27 
RLD: Queer trans organizing.   28 
AJ: Organizing around Tamika McDonald, which led to TYSN.  Remember Tamika who was shot five 29 times in the face. 30 
RLD: Yes, right, exactly.  Totally. 31 
AJ: Trans woman of color. 32 
RLD: Right, no thank you for raising her name.  I was going to say what I remember is there was just a 1 lot of, and she was one of them, but there was just this increasing violence that trans women of 2 color, younger trans women of color, were facing here and I think TYSN and my understanding . . 3 . and I actually wasnt there when some of the first community meetings were happening, but I 4 think it was . . . my understanding second hand or being in the community at the time, was lets 5 figure out a way to address at a structural and kind of a service level whats happening to trans 6 women of color in this community.  And so I think . . . at the time, I honestly think it was a lot of 7 direct service providers at some of the different homeless youth shelters like . . .  8 
AJ: Thats exactly what is was. 9 
RLD: Like Avenue, Ridge, District 202, Streetworks Collaborative.  So a lot of the outreach workers.  So 10 I think there were people . . . my sense is that there were people who wanted to be like, Lets 11 provide better services, lets make sure people get what they need  whether its shelter beds or 12 condoms and safer sex stuff, whatever folks need to be surviving.  And then I think there was 13 also a desire to kind of say, OK, that needs to happen, but what are the structural barriers and 14 whats happening structurally that we also need to address that direct services arent set up to 15 address. Its basic needs which people need to get their basic needs met. 16 
AJ: Gotta get your basic needs met.   17 
RLD: And how are we going to address this on a structural level particularly.  And I think there was a 18 lot of white direct service provers and it was a majority of youth of color so there was that 19 dynamic.   20 
AJ: Right. 21 
RLD: I dont know how much who was making what decisions at that time and where the youth 22 voices were in those early conversations exactly.  I know where people wanted it to be centered 23 but Im not sure in terms of how it all started. I think it was largely white social service providers 24 and adults. 25 
AJ: Adults.   26 
RLD: So, you know, TYSN, from my understanding, started at 202, District 202 and it was a program of 27 202.  Well actually . . .  28 
AJ: It was a program of this consortium. 29 
RLD: Thats true.  Right, right.  But thats where it got a little confusing. 30 
AJ: But thats where it lived.   31 
RLD: Yeah, it lived at 202, it was housed at 202.  So it was housed at 202 and my sense was it was 32 hoping to become both a place to develop curriculum, to kind of . . . this was kind of started 33 before my time, like lets go to the homeless youth shelters or the teen clinics or these different 34 places and do kind of Trans 101.  How are you as a direct service provider respectfully creating 35 both policies but also interpersonally working with clients who might be trans, gender non-36 conforming, maybe not sure but are figuring out their gender identities.  So I think there was a 37 lot of 101 trainings happening before my time.  I think that was kind of mostly what was 38 happening before my time.  When I started . . . but there were young people involved, there 1 were young people on the board.  It was an advisory board of youth and adults. 2 
AJ: Sure. 3 
RLD: And I think there was an intention to have authentic youth leadership, or youth voice.  When I 4 came on that was really my, I guess, priority.  I felt like as a light-skinned trans masculine person 5 I shouldnt long-term be running this organization. I wanted to come in and sort of . . . when I 6 was sort of asked and it was a need, I didnt necessarily seek it out, but I felt like I could be a 7 vehicle to help hopefully eventually move the organization to be really youth-led and really have 8 young trans women of color leading the organization.  To me that was always my intention in 9 starting it was to say, How can we use this as a leadership development opportunity to get 10 people trained in public speaking, get people trained in terms of advocacy and organizing skills? 11 
AJ: Budgets. 12 
RLD: Budgets and finance and fund raising  all of that, so that eventually the organization could be 13 held and led by young trans people of color, in particular trans women.  I think in my time I tried 14 to engage a lot of different folks in the organization and things like that, but I think over time . . . 15 it was great to see after I left Minnesota and left the organization, that I think they really did 16 move over time to be really youth led and have young trans folks leading the organization.  I 17 think it filled a really important need in the community around both the community building but 18 also trying to really deal with structural issues that I think a lot of other organizations just 19 werent at the time.  It was very service provision.  Often, I think  you know, no disrespect to 20 any entity but I think a lot of the services that were set up could also verge on the side of being 21 kind of paternalistic or just not youth empowering or really youth led or driven.  So I think it had 22 a lot of potential to be that and I think that is part of what excited the community and young 23 people being involved.  It was something that I think people felt a great deal of ownership and 24 desire to have a different space to be able to . . . yeah.  Or organize with one another but also 25 deal with whats happening in the community. 26 
AJ: Im going to ask you the tough question. 27 
RLD: Sure, OK.   28 
AJ: So from a distance, because I think you probably left within two or three years of TYSNs 29 founding and it lasted for 10 years.   30 
RLD: Was it 10 years?  OK.   31 
AJ: Yeah, they were around for 10 years. So from a distance, what would you say was sort of the 32 downfall of the organization?   33 
RLD: Thats hard. 34 
AJ: And honestly knowing that you werent necessarily physically in the community per se.  I know 35 you can say personalities and all of those kinds of things because you werent here. 36 
RLD: Honestly as someone who has done non-profit work for a really long time and also now does 37 fund raising and working with foundations and different things, I think part of it is the system 38 were working within, because I think . . . I remember back in the day when you and I were at 1 202, we tried to do some kind of . . . kind of really addressing like ageism and youth and what do 2 people believe youth can do.  Can youth write budgets?  Can youth fund raise?  Can youth be 3 public speakers for an organization?  I think there is just so much ageism and racism that doesnt 4 allow people, like does not support leaders of color, right?  And especially if youre a younger 5 person of color. 6 
AJ: Yes.   7 
RLD: For me, I felt that way but I also was . . .  8 
AJ: And even more specifically if youre trans identified. 9 
RLD: Yeah, totally.  And I think I have a lot of privileges as a light-skinned person, but if youre a 10 darker skin, black or brown, trans person trying to lead an organization, I think there is not a lot 11 of . . . I think people get set-up a lot.  I think people arent given the support and resources to 12 lead and often just not the space.  And so I think . . . I dont know what all the different things 13 that led to, but I think part of it is not supporting the leadership of young people of color.  I think 14 part of it is potentially, and I dont know what their funding looked like by the end, but I think 15 foundations are very fickle, it is hard sometimes to get multi-year funding to really support 16 projects and particularly projects that are trans led, trans people of color led.  Also it might be 17 around organizing.  People can support services, that kind of thing, but to organize or to really 18 do systems change and structural work, I think, is a lot harder to fund.  And then I think . . . I 19 dont know what the individual donor base looked like at the end, but I also think also 20 organizations struggle to have that balance of foundation support and a diverse kind of income 21 stream thats sustainable and that the community is really behind the organization.  So if some 22 funding were to . . . somebody wouldnt get renewed in funding from a foundation that they 23 would have a base of community, that could really fold the organization.  I feel like that could 24 have been connected to TYSN but also just broader in the field that just really doesnt . . . Ive 25 seen in the last 5-10 years so many amazing trans or people of color led, or trans people of color 26 led, projects that havent been able to thrive for a lot of those same reasons.   27 
AJ: Yeah, I would have to . . . the only reason why I asked you that question is because I sort of 28 believed that you would have that analysis of this broad . . . what is happening to trans and 29 gender non-conforming led organizations all over? Right? Some of the same symptoms.  Of 30 course, there is probably personality challenges and all of those kinds of things that come into 31 play, but even those I would argue are sort of perpetuated by this system or lack this system of 32 non-support by the broader, richer . . . TSYN was sort of, in many of these trans and people of 33 color led organizations, were thriving.  If you do some research, mostly all the trans 34 organizations  even starting with the Transgender Law Center and the Sylvia Rivera Law 35 Project. 36 
RLD: National Center for Trans Equality. 37 
AJ: Yeah, theyre only like 12 years old and those are the longest-term organizations and so within 38 that span of time, or during that span of time, the marriage equality movement was going on, 39 which was sort of sucking up all the resources, the energy, and so many of those organizations 1 suffered those same things.   2 
RLD: Totally. 3 
AJ: Ryan Li, what challenges have you had since you began to express your true gender identity? 4 
RLD: Honestly I think, like I mentioned earlier, one of the biggest ones has been family.  I think thats 5 true for a lot of us  for lots of different reasons.  Actually I think . . . well, yeah.  I think theres a 6 lot of different reasons for that.  I was going to say . . .  7 
AJ: Whatever you need to say, say it. 8 
RLD: I was going to say, back to what we were just talking about but then also I think for some of my 9 challenges, really I think in a lot of communities of color, a lot of trans communities, theres just 10 such trauma and I think that actually also has added to the ending of a lot of organizations. 11 
AJ: Sure, absolutely. 12 
RLD: Where everybodys kind of oppressions and trauma are not being supported or dealt with. 13 
AJ: And they all converge at the same time. 14 
RLD: Exactly.  And so I think thats something I have really been happy to see, and Ill come back to 15 your original question, but more work focused on wellness or healing or body-based work to 16 sort of heal a lot of our trauma.  So I think that is something that I think is just so needed and 17 important in our community, and it feels like in my last 15 years doing non-profit stuff, to see 18 just that that is . . .  19 
AJ: Its shifted.   20 
RLD:  . . . becoming more centered and that there is that . . . so I think for me too, some of my family 21 stuff is because of my family having feelings about me being trans but also some of it is their 22 own unhealed trauma that they just couldnt really figure out how to be there for me in this way 23 that Im very different from anything many of them have ever known.  So we just havent been 24 able to kind of really meet each other  some of my family.  Thats actually been one of the 25 hardest pieces for me but I think I feel really grateful for all the chosen family that Ive built 26 because of the political work and getting involved in community work since I was young and 27 honestly was very much part of my gender identity, was part of getting politicized and being 28 political and being a part of organizing  whether it was around trans health stuff to clerical 29 worker and student organizing at the U campus, it was all a part of who I was and then the 30 communities that Ive built  or community supporting relationships that Ive built.  So yeah, for 31 me I think it was both a hardship but also a place where I found my people basically.  Ive found 32 other people to kind of be like, Yeah, were chosen family, we dont have families to see at the 33 holidays but were it.  I think thats actually a powerful piece and a resilient part of trans people 34 and trans people of color  kind of finding that and making that with each other. 35 
AJ: Have you been able to . . . whats the relationship like with your family now? 36 
RLD: Its mixed.  Yeah. 37 
AJ: Its healing and . . . 1 
RLD: I wouldnt really say healing, time  a little bit of time, and now Im in a different place where I 2 can kind of just accept where they are and their limitations.  But really my family is my queer 3 and trans people of color  with a few exceptions.  I have a very amazingly supportive aunt and 4 grandmother and some family members, but really my family is like my friends in the 5 community. 6 
AJ: I know youve mentioned, since weve been in this interview, that you were very close to your 7 grandmother growing up and I know that youre here in Minnesota now  because you dont 8 live here anymore, right? 9 
RLD: No, I live in L.A. now. 10 
AJ: Oh, OK.  So youre here and visiting your grandmother, so theres some closeness there. 11 
RLD: Yeah, for her  for sure.  Yeah, one story I like to tell people about her is that . . . I dont know 12 why, I think sometimes it just skips a generation or what happens, but shes always very 13 thoughtful with birthday cards and so one year . . . it was right around . . . I was like 20 or 21 14 when I came out as trans and we were still very close at that time, weve always been.  She sent 15 me a birthday card and it said, For my granddaughter, and then she crossed daughter out in 16 red Sharpie and wrote son.  She called me and shes like, I hope its OK.  She felt bad but she 17 said, But I had picked that card out for you before I knew, it was just the perfect card for you.  18 Im pretty sure I still have that card  it was just like the sweetest . . .  19 
AJ: Did you bawl? 20 
RLD: Oh yeah.  I was just totally shocked.  So shes just done a lot of things like that that just have 21 really surprised me.  I had no idea that she would be so accepting and open. 22 
AJ: That means so much.  I have a poem in my new collection of poems, called, Mamma calls me 23 Anna.  It talks about my mother sending me a card, To my Daughter, Merry Christmas or 24 Happy Birthday or Happy Easter or whatever.  Family support really means a lot.  The National 25 Transgender Survey, Discrimination Survey, concluded that trans people of color who really 26 thrive mostly are those who have family support.  But, as you have identified, and so many 27 people have identified, its challenging to come by that support.  I know Im deeply privileged to 28 have the love of my family.  It wasnt always easy, its been a struggle, but yeah.  So, Ryan Li, to 29 the extent that you are comfortable, talk to me about any medical interventions that you have 30 undergone as a part of your transition? 31 
RLD: Thanks for asking, and also for the disclaimer piece as well.  My disclaimer for answering that, 32 just because I think its good to have this noted to let whoever watches or listens to this, I have 33 always been a person who has felt a little uncomfortable by the . . . well, a lot of trans people . . . 34 I think just the assumption that, and Im not saying your question is assuming, but people 35 assuming trans people have to have different kinds of medical interventions to be trans.  For 36 me, when I used to do trainings and things, I felt like it was a really good opportunity to really 37 educate people to be . . .  38 
AJ: And this is one such opportunity.   39 
RLD: Yeah, exactly.  So I like to just say that as a disclaimer, you know.  For me, its been a really, I 1 think, positive journey.  I think when I was pretty young I decided to start hormones and I was 2 lucky enough at the time, stuff wasnt actually as regulated a little bit.  And so I actually kind of 3 slipped in the cracks and was able to get a hormone prescription without having a therapist 4 letter. 5 
AJ: Oh wow. So, it was probably right around informed consent time. 6 
RLD: Maybe . . . although no, because other people were having to.  I think it had to do . . . I dont 7 remember exactly how it happened but I was working with a therapist because I knew I needed 8 to, and then I went to this . . . I wont say the name, but this provider and they asked if I was 9 working with a therapist and I said, Yes, but they never required an actual letter  to get the 10 letter from the therapist.   11 
AJ: Right.   12 
RLD: But I know other people seeing that provider did have to.  So I dont know how that happened.  13 At the same time, or a few years later, I hated that all those systems existed, so I was really 14 doing a lot of work here to try to get models from Callen-Lorde or Lyon-Martin in San Francisco 15 or other places where how do they do informed consent because I really felt like a lot of my 16 trans health care was really disempowering and felt very much like this doctor who is like, Ive 17 got the carrot, I have the script.  It didnt always feel very respectful.   18 
AJ: But youve got to conform to my ideas of what trans masculine people should be. 19 
RLD: Right, and especially for me when I started, I only really had models for white . . . mostly white 20 trans men who were probably very much . . . the people I knew very much wanted to be very 21 masculine, kind of had a whole plan of a trajectory and for me, I originally identified very gender 22 queer.  I started hormones very low dose, I didnt necessarily know what that was going to mean 23 and I also wanted to see how my body responded.   24 
AJ: Sure, absolutely. 25 
RLD: But I felt a lot of pressure, even within the community, to conform in a particular way and to 26 kind of perform masculine in a particular way that just didnt feel like who I was.  Yeah, so yeah . 27 . . I would say that once starting hormones, I do feel like it actually opened up and made my 28 gender more expansive.  I wanted to wear pink, I wanted to be more feminine, I wanted to 29 actually be more gender fabulous  even though I think growing up, like I said, I was more on 30 that tomboy sort of . . . yeah.  So its interesting.  Its definitely been kind of an always evolving 31 kind of journey in terms of how I see my gender and what thats meant for me.  Again, I think a 32 lot of my early kind of exposure to people who were having medical interventions were mostly 33 like white trans men, so I didnt . . . I didnt have a lot of Asian role models.  I think eventually 34 maybe in my mid-20s I started meeting other Asian trans men, which made a really big 35 difference for me, just to see other people and talk to other people and share our stories.  And 36 also, at that time, didnt really think I wanted any kind of surgeries and I feel like I . . . part of 37 that was largely class stuff.  I never really had the resources, I worked like three jobs, I didnt 38 always have health insurance.  So it really took . . . it was actually just a few years ago that I 39 finally had top surgery and it was, honestly, the best decision . . . not the best, but it was a really 40 important decision I ended up making.  I ended up having part of it covered from my insurance 1 in California, which is pretty incredible.  I think its really just helped me align in feeling much 2 more confident and happy in my body and its something that I never . . . I kind of fought 3 against. I didnt want to have to do it because I felt like it was going to be like this permanent 4 thing or that it was going to make me less gender queer or gender fabulous or whatever, but in 5 the end Im really, really happy that I made that choice. 6 
AJ: Awesome.  Thank you for sharing that.  It is a challenge to always have to respond to our bodies 7 per se, but I would have to say that body discomfort or body image does play a role in 8 transgender identity.  I appreciate your response to the question.  So just looking back over your 9 decision to express your true gender identity, what were some pivotal moments?  I think you 10 just kind of described one, you talked about how your top surgery sort of created this space to 11 evolve your ideas and thoughts around your gender identity.  So, are there other pivotal 12 moments and would you do anything differently? 13 
RLD: I think Ive kind of touched on most of them in the earlier questions  the drag king stuff, the 14 hormones and even being able to feel like I could make decisions about, you know, this may or 15 may not be permanent and Im going to try this out.  I think for me, really, the top surgery was 16 an opportunity for me to kind of align my politics and more of an embodied self.  I think for a lot 17 of us who, as trans people or as different marginalized oppressed people, that we just have a 18 real disconnect from our bodies.  I think I was always very political, strategic thinking, but not 19 always knowing how I could match that to who I am in my body.  I think actually that was one of 20 the biggest, I feel like, ways that I was able to really be like, Oh, this is political, this is 21 connected to all these different things and also I can be more embodied in who I am.  I think 22 that, honestly . . . I dont think there is anything I would really change.   23 
AJ: Has there been any specific people that have sort of shifted or made an impact on your life? 24 
RLD: Oh my God, we could have an hour already.  Youre obviously one of them. 25 
AJ: Ohhh. 26 
RLD: No really, I didnt know . . . weve talked, there werent a lot of other trans folks of color that I 27 was connected to in my early kind of coming out here, or just being in the trans community.  A 28 lot of the organizing I was doing was mostly with white trans folks.  Yeah, I think starting to go to 29 conferences and meeting other trans men of color, other mixed race trans people was huge.  It 30 was really just formative because I didnt feel like I necessarily had that around me a lot.  And 31 then obviously all of our elders  Miss Major, Sylvia Rivera, Marsha P. Johnson.   32 
AJ: Do you Kris Hayashi? 33 
RLD: Oh, of course, Kris Hayashi.  You know, just all . . . Alex Lee was huge.  34 
AJ: Alexander  yeah.  35 
RLD: And its kind of beautiful how all these things come together.  Alex Lee, I met him at a trans 36 justice conference in New York where I met some of the first other mixed race trans men I ever 37 met, this was back in like 2005 . . . something like that.  So we stayed in touch, like a lot of the 38 folks that met there, and he ended up when I was helping TYSN move from being housed at 202 39 to getting our own fiscal sponsor and all of that, he was like totally . . . because he also has a law 1 degree. 2 
AJ: Hes a lawyer. 3 
RLD: He did that with TGIJP. 4 
AJ: Is that right?   5 
RLD: So he helped them get their own fiscal sponsorship, so it was just this beautiful . . . I can actually 6 go to another Asian trans person who is also working at a trans organization.  Just that kind of 7 necessary . . . its like some of that personal family kind of who we are as people but then also in 8 our political work.  I think thats what is sad about seeing a lot of the trans organizations fold or 9 whatever, is that we dont always . . . we cant always find each other and thats what I love 10 about Trans Justice Funding Project and others that are really working to connect.   11 
AJ: To connect, thats a big part of the whole project. 12 
RLD: So, yeah.  Theres been so many formative people in my time.  I feel like yeah  really looking to 13 our elders because are there are so many fierce trans people of color who have even made it 14 possible for you and I to be here. And then people in our own communities like you and others 15 who I think really helped me stay grounded here and have those sometimes hard, real 16 conversations but also show up for each other at times when we needed each other. 17 
AJ: Absolutely.  You get me all emotional here, Ryan Li.  Talk to me about love and relationships 18 man.  How does that go for you?  Are you in a relationship now? Who do you date?  Who do you 19 see?   20 
RLD: Well, I am in a relationship.  Weve been together almost four years, its really great. 21 
AJ: Wow, thats incredible.   22 
RLD: Yeah, I date kind of everybody.  I am attracted to, if thats what youre asking . . . 23 
AJ: Yeah. 24 
RLD: I date women, I date men, I date trans people. 25 
AJ: Yeah, I dont mean specifically who you date but who do you date. 26 
RLD: I like everybody, I dont discriminate.   27 
AJ: Would you call that gender queer? 28 
RLD: I would say queer, I just think of myself as queer.  Yeah.  I think I am attracted to a variety of 29 genders and I still think its funny, a lot of us will joke . . . sometimes Im like do I want to be that 30 person or am I attracted to that person? 31 
AJ: Oh wow, thats interesting. 32 
RLD: Its interesting, especially because I wasnt necessarily attracted to masculinity as a younger 1 person but I think as Ive come into myself Ive realized that I have more of a range of attraction 2 to a lot . . . all genders, all different kinds of genders. 3 
AJ: So this four-year relationship youre in right now, is that person trans identified?  Are they cis? 4 
RLD: She identifies as a woman  yeah, yeah, yeah.   5 
AJ: So cis gender. 6 
RLD: Cis woman, yeah.   7 
AJ: Awesome, awesome.  Wow, thats awesome because many . . . Ive interviewed over 60 people 8 now for this project and a lot of people talk about the challenges of having a relationship or 9 even finding a relationship, let alone being in the relationship which we know is challenging in 10 and of itself, and thats just because relationships are challenging.  When you bring a trans 11 identity into that, then it becomes, I think, even more challenging.  Can you talk a little bit about 12 how you deal with relating to others? 13 
RLD: I feel like Ive been overall really fortunate.  I think, again, if we go back to structural and kinds of 14 different oppressions, I think there are different people who have different trans identities who 15 might have, I think, sometimes more crap that they have to deal with  just in terms of misogyny 16 and trans misogyny and sexism, all those things.  But for me, when I was very first coming out 17 and on hormones and the person I was dating at the time was just really cool and it wasnt a 18 thing.  That person was super supportive of me exploring my sexuality and just being who I was 19 and kind of coming into who I am now in this gender.  So I, fortunately, havent had . . . I know a 20 lot of people who say that they transitioned within a relationship and the person hasnt been 21 able to support that.   22 
AJ: Right. 23 
RLD: Or, just in general people having a hard time figuring out their attraction to a trans person and 24 what that means to their identity.  But I think, for me, Ive never . . .  25 
AJ: Which is a big thing. 26 
RLD: Its huge.  Oh no, its huge  its definitely a huge think.  I think for me, Ive tended to date 27 people who are in community or who are already . . . I dont know, just like comfortable with 28 and familiar with . . .  29 
AJ: That helps, right? 30 
RLD: So I think I havent necessarily gone on a dating site or things that I think make it harder because 31 you meet people who may not be conscious of trans people period.  I think also I havent . . . Im 32 really upfront about it too if Im going to date someone.  So its not something that has become 33 known later, its usually from the beginning.  So it hasnt been a thing that . . . if its an issue then 34 it doesnt move forward. 35 
AJ: Have a nice day. 36 
RLD: Yeah, yeah, yeah.  Its hard though because there are so many just gross narratives out there 1 about trans people and I think theres a lot of fetishizing, I think theres a lot of . . . just a lot of 2 things that make it challenging.  Ive definitely had bad experiences of like going to a bar and just 3 having somebody approach me, and mostly gay cis men, and then be really disrespectful and 4 gross.  So, and I think that has a lot to do with misogyny, right?  And a lot of certain ways that I 5 think people who tend to be socialized as cis gender men can feel entitlement to talk about 6 peoples bodies or kind of just be a certain way that I think . . . I dont know.  So I definitely have 7 had not so good experiences as well.   8 
AJ: Yeah.  Wow.  What do you . . . so you sort of brought up this issue, being in a gay bar and sort of 9 being disrespected . . . what do you think the relationship between the L, the G, the B and the T 10 is like?  Just in your personal opinion.   11 
RLD: I mean its interesting.  Its funny, I was just talking to a friend the other day about bi-sexuality 12 and kind of . . . I think in general its like B and T are often . . . bi-sexual and trans are often not 13 really . . . well theyre more marginalized within the L and G, right? 14 
AJ: Absolutely. 15 
RLD: And often Ill even think of . . . Ill just say, Thats very G and L, or, Thats very gay and lesbian 16 or lesbian and bi.  Or, Im sorry, gay and lesbian or lesbian and gay depending on what part of 17 the country youre in  because I think here people say GLBT more or have they changed it to 18 LGBT?   19 
AJ: I think most sort of progressive folks say LGBT.  I think gay men say GLBT.   20 
RLD: But I think it was a regional thing for a little while.  I remember being here and a lot of things 21 were called GLBT, but then other places it was called LGBT.  But I think its changed now. 22 
AJ: I think youre absolutely right.  The programs office at the University of Minnesota was GLBT. 23 
RLD: I think thats what I was thinking of. 24 
AJ: Which they are changing, finally  thank goodness.  I think youre absolutely right.  I do think its 25 sort of segmented . . . 26 
RLD: Based on who is . . .  27 
AJ: Who is saying it  more progressive folks that I know and I certainly use LGBT.   28 
RLD: Yeah. 29 
AJ: Because TLGB is just too hard on the tongue.   30 
RLD: Yeah.   31 
AJ: I want to do that but its challenging for me to do that  to say.  But whats your thoughts 32 around that? 33 
RLD: That could also be a whole afternoon conversation.  I just think the issues our communities are 34 facing are really different.  I think what you talked about earlier around same sex marriage, like I 35 think there is sadly a . . . maybe for the mainstream or even maybe gay and lesbian people who 1 are maybe not necessarily having current struggles of survival or just kind of living their lives and 2 its not really a big deal.  I think there is just . . . how do I say this?  I think there are really 3 different issues facing our communities.  I think there is a lot of . . . I think there are more and 4 more gay and lesbian people who have access to more . . . like different sets of privilege, 5 whether its marriage, whether its being able to buy a house, have a family, all these different 6 things.  But then, as you know  as you and I know, were having the highest rate of trans 7 women of color being murdered, right? 8 
AJ: Right, exactly. 9 
RLD: All these things.   10 
AJ: And high rates of unemployment and . . . 11 
RLD: Right, exactly. 12 
AJ: And lack of access to health care. 13 
RLD: All of those things, right. 14 
AJ: Specifically trans specific health care. 15 
RLD: Right.  So I think what is hard is that I think a lot of gay and lesbian people dont necessarily see 16 or know that or realize the extent of it.  I think definitely the mainstream world doesnt 17 necessarily . . . they think, Oh well, same sex marriage has passed, we should celebrate that 18 and everything is fine.  Well actually, no  our people are just trying to survive, and like you said 19 health care, employment, housing. 20 
AJ: Huge. 21 
RLD: If you think of gentrification and all the things that are happening, its black and brown and 22 trans, particularly trans folks, who are right at the  . . . 23 
AJ: And queer people who live in these sort of marginalized communities that are now being 24 gentrified. 25 
RLD: Right, right.  So I think there is just so much and I think its sad that it has become, like a lot of 26 communities there is just a lot of divisiveness.  Id love to see people who were backing the 27 same-sex marriage movement really put some resources and put some ally ship and solidarity 28 into, you know, a whole variety of issues that would help improve the lives of trans folks.  Weve 29 talked about incarceration and criminalization and all of that stuff for folks in detention.  So I 30 think there is just so many issues that are happening within trans communities particularly and 31 thats the community I feel like I can speak most to.  But I think theres just a real disconnect 32 about what is really happening. 33 
AJ: Have you seen this petition by . . . I think it was started by a cis gay white man to now have the 34 split. 35 
RLD: No, I totally didnt see that. 36 
AJ: And take the T out and have the trans community go off on their own.  You havent seen this? 1 
RLD: No, I havent seen that.   2 
AJ: OK.  Its real, sort of a change on-board petition that was circulated.  A couple of stories in 3 Huffington Post and that kind of thing.  I think the person was a lawyer. 4 
RLD: Pretty recently? 5 
AJ: Yeah, pretty recently.  But he was one of the lawyers for same-sex marriage. 6 
RLD: Oh wow.   7 
AJ: One of the attorneys, and hes a gay man.  But, as you stated, just says that the issues arent the 8 same and so consequently now that what weve gotten what we need, we should let that 9 community go off and do their thing.  But, at any rate. 10 
RLD: Back to what you were saying earlier about who Ive been influenced by, we know our history 11 because the fact is that the LGBT movement is the LGBT movement because of trans women of 12 color and drag queens and trans folks were the ones at the front lines of the fact that we even . . 13 . you know what I mean?  And so thats just sad to me that where things are now and folks just 14 really kind of have . . . and thats why I think projects like this and others are so important to 15 kind of document.  Also, we need that in the schools, we need that in other ways for people to 16 really know the history and also not to sort of . . . once someone gets some level of privileged 17 access forget where weve come from or leave others behind.  Thats trickle down social justice, 18 eventually you all will be taken care of but for now I dont care about you.  I think thats just not 19 right and not OK.   20 
AJ: Yeah, well thanks to you Ryan Li there is no chance that some white filmmaker will make a 21 movie about Gender Blur 30 years from now when a white cis male at the center of organizing 22 clearly trans endeavor.  Interesting.  What do you think the agenda should be for the trans 23 community going forward?  Is there an agenda and if so, what should it be? 24 
RLD: Thats a really good question.  I think it touches on some of the stuff I was just sharing.  I know 25 we need it all.  I know we need policy change and advocacy at state, national, local, regional 26 levels.  We have all these terrible bills coming through. 27 
AJ: Right. 28 
RLD: All these anti-trans bills that wouldnt allow people to use the bathrooms of our genders.  I saw 29 recently too there was some potential bill in Kansas or somewhere where they were going to 30 suggest that students would have . . . if they knew a student was using the bathroom of not their 31 assigned gender, they would give them $2500 to rat them out. 32 
AJ: To report  yeah. 33 
RLD: Its just wild, the level of these different measures.  So I think in this moment we need to defeat 34 those and thats not going to be enough either.  Do you know what I mean?  We have to be, 35 unfortunately, reactionary to these things coming out.  So thats, I guess, an immediate urgency, 36 of sorts.  And, at the same time, Ive been talking with folks at TLC and other places . . .  37 
AJ: The Transgender Law Center. 1 
RLD: Transgender Law Center, yeah, and others.   2 
AJ: In the Bay. 3 
RLD: In the Bay  thank you, in Oakland.  Or NCTE, National Center for Trans Equality, I talked to them 4 a little bit.  Those need to be defeated but also the trend right now is that they are in these kind 5 of Midwestern, Southern, other places where there may not be the infrastructure  like trans 6 groups or even trans leaders connected with one another or ready to say like advocate on policy 7 stuff.  So I think while we need to defeat those, I think we also need to be really focused on 8 building up the grass roots, building up the leadership of trans people, particularly trans folks of 9 color, to be able to be speakers to what is happening and to kind of both be able to organize and 10 kind of mobilize when these things happen but also just to build more kind of local 11 infrastructure basically, and support.  I think TJFP, they just did that . . . Trans Justice Funding 12 Project, the Trans Law Center, just did that . . . like a training institute. 13 
AJ: Leadership Training Institute. 14 
RLD: Leadership Training Institute, right.  So more things like that, I think, are really necessary.  So 15 when these things come out we have more of a mobilized base of people to be able to activate 16 and address that.  Thats one thing.  I dont know that there is one agenda but I think . . . or 17 theres not.  I dont believe, but I do think really looking at the grass roots trans leadership, trans 18 leadership of color, is really important and I think dealing with things around health care and 19 housing and health care housing  you know, access to jobs.  I think all of those are huge and 20 obviously also, like right now, there is a lot around folks being incarcerated and folks being in 21 detention and not having any . . . immigration detention and not having any resources or 22 advocates.  So I think theres just a lot, honestly.  I think all of those  things . . . many of those 23 things are of equal importance so its really about trying to figure out how we can get more 24 resources and get more capacity and people to be able to really address whats happening.  It 25 feels like were in a crisis honestly, it feels like the level of urgency around whats . . . and 26 violence.  There are all these things are intersecting at the same time so I think we really need to 27 think about . . . 28 
AJ: Because violence sort of is created because I dont have a job, which means I dont really have a 29 safe and secure home, which means Ive got to eat and so I need to do things that may put me 30 in more precarious situations and then this cycle continues and now Im out in the streets at 31 3am in the morning and I get shot, right?  Or raped or . . .  32 
RLD: Im carrying a condom and then Im told Im soliciting for sex.   33 
AJ: Right. 34 
RLD: And just the whole criminalization of sex work. 35 
AJ: Thats state violence and I would argue that all of it is state violence.   36 
RLD: Totally. 37 
AJ: Because its created by the refusal of the state and not only the refusal of the state to 1 acknowledge but actually the state is creating policies and legislation to directly disaffect 2 transgender identities in the system. 3 
RLD: Right, yeah.  Thats what its all about. 4 
AJ: But I think today was a good day in that the anti-trans bill in Georgia was vetoed by the governor 5 as well as North Carolina, which did pass an anti-trans bill, a horrible anti-trans bill but multiple 6 law suits have already been launched against the state, which are claiming that those actions 7 are completely unconstitutional, which Im positive that they are and the state is going to lose.  8 But its just sad that we have to spend our time and energy and resources on sort of beating 9 back anti-trans legislation.   10 
RLD: And what that does to peoples psyches too, going back to the national discrimination survey 11 and all the trauma, how is it to live in the world when theres all these things telling us we dont 12 . . . that were like disposable and were worthless and we should be criminalized for just going 13 to the bathroom or incarcerated . . . all those things, just the whole disposability and kind of the 14 level of . . . yeah, I think its . . .  15 
AJ: Its painful, quite frankly it is.  Have you ever worked for or volunteered for any trans or LGBT 16 organizations that we didnt already talk about? 17 
RLD: Yeah, so many.  So the ones we talked about and then I also worked at Rainbow Health 18 Initiative. 19 
AJ: Oh really, RHI? 20 
RLD: Yes, RHI here and then . . . what else?  Maybe just those.  TYSN, 202 . . . yeah, I think that maybe 21 I mentioned most of them.  I may be forgetting something.  Im right now on the Astraea Lesbian 22 Foundation for Justice Board, so thats great. 23 
AJ: Yeah, so hows that going? 24 
RLD: Yeah, its really good. 25 
AJ: Astraea is . . .  26 
RLD: Its an LGBT foundation based in New York and were one of a few LGBT foundations who fund 27 LGBT issues domestically and internationally.  And definitely a lot of the issues that were talking 28 about has a whole portfolio around anti-criminalization and violence.  So some very progressive 29 strategies to support kind of what . . .  30 
AJ: And I think they have a strong focus on queer and trans people of color led organizing, right? 31 
RLD: Right, right.  Yeah, so thats pretty incredible. 32 
AJ: Yeah, thats incredible.   33 
RLD: And then I guess before I was on the board of CUAV, Communities United Against Violence.   34 
AJ: OK. 35 
RLD: In San Francisco. 1 
AJ: San Francisco.   2 
RLD: So its a local LGBT . . .  3 
AJ: Communities Organized Against . . .  4 
RLD: No, Communities United Against Violence.   5 
AJ: Communities United Against Violence, OK. 6 
RLD: CUAV.  And they were formed actually in the 1970s so theyve been around for a while, really 7 kind of as a direct service organization to address . . . and I think it was around the Harvey Milk 8 time and I cant remember all of the . . . but it was really more of a direct service organization 9 and over the last few years theyve been moving to more kind of community wellness and 10 organizing leadership development work as well as some direct service, so its pretty amazing.  11 Its people of color led and works with folks living in the mission, largely mission, folks of color. 12 
AJ: Thats awesome.  Youve dedicated quite a bit of your adult life to queer, trans, and LGBT 13 organizing and service provision.  Thats quite amazing.   14 
RLD: Well, we have to.  Ive been fortunate enough to be able to do a lot of that work through the 15 non-profit sector and as a staff, but also a lot of it has been volunteer time and its political work 16 because I feel like we need to be doing that to take care of each other and to make stuff better 17 but . . . I dont know if can swear on here, but shits messed up and we need to . . .  18 
AJ: You can swear. 19 
RLD: We need to really get it together and really improve all of this injustice and oppression that our 20 people are facing on a daily . . .  21 
AJ: Wow. What do you think about this election thats coming up?   22 
RLD: Oh gosh, I dont know.  I mean, yeah . . . its a mess. 23 
AJ: Youre a brilliant person and . . .  24 
RLD: Its a mess, its a mess.   25 
AJ: Your ideas are important, I want to hear about them.  We dont . . . we are not relegated to only 26 talking about trans issues, right?   27 
RLD: I know, right.  Totally.  I was just having this conversation with someone  totally.  I think its a 28 mess, I think its . . . Im not really interested in any of the candidates really.  I think . . . not that 29 youre asking me to say about a specific candidate.  I think its interesting that Bernie Sanders 30 talks about the working class and working people in a way that at least in my time in the world, 31 that I havent seen a lot of presidents talk about.  So thats interesting to me as something . . .  32 
AJ: I dont think Ive seen any and I think Im a little bit older than you are. 33 
RLD: Yeah, so I think thats something.  I think given my beliefs and feelings about capitalism and the 1 fact that this system doesnt work and its structured to make rich people richer and poor 2 people poorer and thats the way its set up.  I think its refreshing in some ways to have 3 somebody talking about some of that. 4 
AJ: Absolutely. 5 
RLD: And I dont think it has like the . . . him, or just in general, there isnt enough of a race analysis.  I 6 think its like we see all these anti-trans bills happening, we see the amazing Black Lives Matter 7 movement thats really taken . . . its amazing. 8 
AJ: Yes. 9 
RLD: I think people in this country are really uncomfortable with the potential for an increasing offset 10 of the power structures that exist and the power thats moving in our communities.  So, to me, 11 its an exciting moment but its also scary because I think its really heightened the backlash, its 12 heightened the conservativism and people life Trump and people . . . you know, both around the 13 folks who are most oppressed and particularly Black folks in this country and then also if you 14 think about undocumented immigrants and folks . . . like the levels of attacks on communities 15 where I think theres also some increasing . . . you know, the Not One More movement, like just 16 all these different things that are happening that I think really are showing people power and 17 people, like the struggle of communities of color coming together to fight these systems that are 18 not working and are . . . you know. 19 
AJ: Yeah, its amazing to see the activism that is growing up around those things.  Some days it gets 20 a little discouraging but its very hopeful to know that people are woke as they say. 21 
RLD: Yeah, totally  yeah, yeah, yeah.  And to see, its like even if youre on FOX news and youre 22 going to see some haterade you cant not see whats happening.  Even if the person is telling 23 you it in a way thats . . . or like CeCe McDonald, having her name on How to Get Away With 24 Murder.   25 
AJ: That was huge, right? 26 
RLD: Yeah, and it wasnt like just in a celebrity way, it was actually talking about the issues impacting 27 trans women of color in terms of incarceration.  So I think its just an interesting and powerful 28 moment to be like . . . people are more woke and people are more seeing and cant really turn 29 away from.  So I think for some people theyre moving toward it and other people that are 30 scared as hell and theyre like getting behind people like Trump or whatever.  So I think its . . . 31 its a scary and hopeful time and I think people are really rising up though and I think were just 32 seeing more and more the power of protests, the power of speaking out, the power of 33 organizing  and really, you know, I think theres more and more possibility of not leaving folks 34 behind.  I think there is just more and more of this kind of like synergy around bringing all these 35 intersecting issues together with a really strong race analysis.   36 
AJ: Wow, thats beautiful.  Thank you.  You know, you actually touched on something that I wasnt 37 necessarily going to ask, but the trans community is becoming more and more visible, right? 38 
RLD: Yeah. 39 
AJ: For a number of reasons, but I would have to say one big possible or one . . . its not even 1 possible, one big reality is Caitlyn Jenner.   2 
RLD: Can you even say that?  Yeah.   3 
AJ: Go. 4 
RLD: Well, Ill tell you more of a story on that offline, but Im working on an interesting project 5 around that but Ill tell you about that later.   6 
AJ: OK.   7 
RLD: Yeah, I mean . . . lets see, where do I start?  I would say that . . . I think somebody like Che 8 Gossett or someone . . . or Reina or a few different people Ive heard talk about this, I think with 9 the increased visibility, I think there is also . . . and a lot of people are saying this, but theres 10 also like a very increased surveillance, increased violence, increased . . .  11 
AJ: Backlash. 12 
RLD: Backlash.  So I think thats to me what I see happening right now and its like as people are 13 seeing more of this I think theyre getting more and more uncomfortable.  Caitlyn is a 14 complicated person and I dont . . . I honestly dont really care that much about her.  I mean, 15 whatever  do her thing.   16 
AJ: It breaks my heart that she waited 65 years . . . or felt like she had to wait 65 years. 17 
RLD: Totally.  On a human level, I can empathize with that  in that we live in a world where someone 18 would not be able to be who they are because of internalized stuff, because of the world we live 19 in  so that, on a human level, yes.  But I think its also like were now in a moment too where 20 not just people like her, but I think theres even more conservative trans people out in the world 21 being able to kind of . . . so its not like I think for me and a lot of people in my generation or just 22 who Im around, but I think we came up into our trans identities in a very politicized way.   23 
AJ: Yes. 24 
RLD: About solidarity, about taking care of the people who are most marginalized and impacted by 25 oppressions and seeing that.  So I think its just interesting now to have more of these celebrities 26 coming out and its just a whole different thing.  I think in some ways, some of that, I think, 27 maybe can have positive impact to kind of just get it more on peoples radars, but I also think . . . 28 I dont know. 29 
AJ: The other visible people are people like Laverne and Janet . . . 30 
RLD: Like Laverne. 31 
AJ: Who really understand the issues, have a huge platform and are sort of challenging and 32 changing hearts and minds and that kind of thing.   33 
RLD: Which is good. 34 
AJ: Yeah, but theyre not Caitlyn though. 35 
RLD: Yeah. 1 
AJ: Thats a big one man.   2 
RLD: Yeah, and shes got a lot of money and a lot of power and a lot of . . . like a following of her 3 different stuff.  Honestly, I dont follow her that well but I think . . . yeah. 4 
AJ: Well thank you for just sharing your ideas and thoughts around that.  Thank you for sharing your 5 ideas and thoughts and your own story today, Ryan Li.  I really, really deeply appreciate it.  I 6 guess I would just ask one last question and that is where do you see the trans community in 50 7 years? 8 
RLD: Wow.  Gosh.  Thats a hard question.  Maybe if it was 10 or 15 years, I dont even know if Id 9 have an answer for that . . . but 50 years.  I mean, is it like the hopeful or the likely/realistic?  10 
AJ: Its whatever you think.  I think its probably got to be a mixture of hope and reality. 11 
RLD: One thing Im thinking a lot about and I guess in 50 years Ill be elderly . . . or an older person, 12 hopefully.  Ive just been thinking a lot about the lack of care structures for trans folks as we age, 13 like just the whole trans aging thing.  And so, like I said earlier, for a lot of us that dont 14 necessarily have biological family who is going to kind of care for us as we age, and so I think 15 that there is a piece of that that Ive just been thinking about more, and not even because in 50 16 years Ill be needing that, but just that its something that even right a lot of our folks are 17 struggling with and I wonder now in 50 years what that will look like.  So I think that theres 18 things like that that I think about and I think are maybe under . . . just not something that I think 19 a lot of groups are working on actively right now.   20 
AJ: Sure.   21 
RLD: And that also could be for other movement leaders and other people who aren't necessarily 22 trans . . .  23 
AJ: Yeah. 24 
RLD: I think of Grace Lee Boggs and I think of Miss Major. 25 
AJ: Mandy Carter, who I just spent the weekend with  yeah. 26 
RLD: Mandy Carter, totally.  Jay Toole  theres a lot of folks in our movement who have been doing 27 movement work for their whole lives and dont necessarily have what they need to age, 28 otherwise theyre aging and maybe cant work at all or as much or whatever.  So thats 29 something I think we need to address as a community and think about.  I dont know . . . I want 30 to abolish all the things that arent working and really . . . like song, Southerners On New Ground 31 always talks about liberation in our lifetime, right?  What would liberation in our lifetime look 32 like?  And I think whats hard for a lot of us is weve been so used to living the way that were 33 having to live and survive and we have those glimpses or moments or breaths of liberation, but 34 what would that really look like?  Its really hard to actually put it into words  but thats what I 35 want.  I want us to feel free and liberated and I want these oppressive structures and the 36 violence and all these things to end so that we can be . . . like everyone, but particularly trans 37 folks and folks of color are free and know what that feels like. 38 
AJ: Thats a beautiful vision. 1 
RLD: So I dont know.  I dont know if thats going to happen in 50 years but I think whatever we can 2 do to get there. 3 
AJ: To get there  yeah.  We live in a time of rapid change.  One hundred years ago it took 50 years 4 to make sort of moderate change and now we can have monumental change in six months  5 that happens. 6 
RLD: Yeah. 7 
AJ: The marriage equality movement is one example.  It went from going downhill and then three 8 years later its the law of the land, so things happen quite quickly. 9 
RLD: Thats true. 10 
AJ: A lot faster now than they used to.  Thank you, Ryan Li.   11 
RLD: Thank you so much, Andrea.   12 
AJ: I appreciate this opportunity so much.  Thank you for your candor, thank you for your honesty, 13 thank you for all the work that you do in this community and on this planet to make our lives 14 better. 15 
RLD: Well, Id say the same for you.  Thank you and thanks for having me and thanks for all the work 16 that you do.   17 
AJ: All right.  Until we meet again, my friend.   18 

