   
Terry Dickelman Narrator   Andrea Jenkins Interviewer 
    
The Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies University of Minnesota 
May 26, 2016 
 
 
   

 
  
The Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story, while providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source material about the transgender community.  The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for current and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public. 
The Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300 individuals over the next three years.  Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and experiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality.  This project will be led by Andrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist.  Andrea brings years of experience working in government, non-profits and LGBT organizations.  If you are interested in being involved in this exciting project, please contact Andrea. 
Andrea Jenkins jenki120@umn.edu (612) 625-4379 
   
 
Andrea Jenkins -AJ 1 
Terry Dickelman  -TD 2 
 3 
 4 
AJ: So, hello. 5 
TD: Hello. 6 
AJ: My name is Andrea Jenkins and I am the oral historian for the Transgender Oral History Project 7 at the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  Today is May 26, 2016, and I am here 8 with a really, really dear friend and colleague and, in many ways, a brother  a trans sibling, 9 Terry Dickelman.  How are you doing, Terry? 10 
TD: Im doing great, Andrea.  Thank you for allowing me to be a part of this project.   11 
AJ: Oh my goodness, well . . . thank you for allowing me to be in your home and invade your deep 12 personal history because thats what were getting ready to do today.   13 
TD: Thats OK.  All right. 14 
AJ: No, Im just kidding.  Its just as much information as you choose to share is going to be 15 phenomenal.  So Terry, to start out, can you just state your name, please spell it for our 16 transcriptionist, and how you identify today in terms of your gender and what was your gender 17 assigned at birth? 18 
TD: OK.  My name is Terry Dickelman.  D-i-c-k-e-l-m-a-n.  It means little fat man in German.   19 
AJ: Oh really, OK.  Dickelman.   20 
TD: Yeah.  And I identify as male, but I was assigned female at birth.   21 
AJ: So what pronouns do you use? 22 
TD: I use masculine pronouns today.  When I was born in 1960 and . . . 23 
AJ: 1960, not 1916. 24 
TD: Right.  Id look pretty good for being 100 years old.   25 
AJ: Yes, exactly.  You look good anyway, Terry.   26 
TD: Thank you.  But, you know, back then we really didnt have any language for transgender 27 people.  I grew up my whole life being referred to as she and her.  I think thats one of the things 28 that was really difficult for my family to wrap their head around was this change in pronouns. 29 
AJ: Really?  That was a tough part of the transition for them, huh? 30 
TD: Yeah, and in some ways . . . I dont know, should I just ramble on? 31 
AJ: You can ramble a little bit, but I got some questions that I want to make sure we get to.   32 
TD: OK, good.  I should say that I come from a small family  mom, dad.  I had one sibling, a sister. 33 
AJ: OK. 1 
TD: And me.  I happen to be adopted.  But, the pronoun thing, my sister really struggled with it for 2 quite some time and sometimes during that period I thought that she was deliberately calling 3 me she  as not being accepting or being . . . 4 
AJ: As an insult. 5 
TD: Yes.   6 
AJ: As a derogatory way to hurt you. 7 
TD: Yes, right.  She finally stopped when I said, Jane, if you keep saying she when I look very much 8 like this, people are going to think you stopped taking your medication. 9 
AJ: Right, then she thought about it, huh? 10 
TD: Yeah, she thought about it and it was like after that it was he all the time. 11 
AJ: Wow, thats an effective strategy that hopefully other people will pick up on and use with their 12 relatives who refuse to use the right pronouns, particularly in public it can be really 13 embarrassing and downright dangerous nowadays.   14 
TD: Yeah. 15 
AJ: You know, Terry, before we go deep into the interview, and I really appreciate you sharing that  16 thats really poignant and very real and I can tell that its very emotional for you, tell me about 17 your earliest memory in life.  Whats the earliest thing you remember in your life?  It does not 18 have to be related to your trans identity, though if it is that is quite OK.  But whats the earliest 19 thing you remember? 20 
TD: I think probably . . . well, probably the very earliest thing I remember is being a little bit older 21 but still in a crib. 22 
AJ: Oh, OK.  Like you were too old to be in a crib? 23 
TD: Not to be old to be in a crib but . . . still at crib age but not . . . 24 
AJ: On the tail end of it, OK.  All right. 25 
TD: Right.  I remember thinking in pictures about how to get out of the crib and so I just visualized, 26 because I didnt have language skills so I wasnt talking to myself like, Well, all you have to do is 27 stand up, go over to the corner, hang on, and throw your leg over.  No, I just thought all of that 28 in pictures. 29 
AJ: Really?  And you remember that?   30 
TD: I remember that. 31 
AJ: Wow.  Thats pretty fascinating.  And so you were like 18 months old or . . . 32 
TD: Right, yeah. 33 
AJ: Boy, thats pretty fascinating that youre able to remember that.  So where did you grow up? 1 
TD: I grew up in Des Moines, Iowa.  For those of us in the know, its Dead Moines.   2 
AJ: Wow, OK.  All right. 3 
TD: Not a lot going on  sleepy, little Midwestern town.   4 
AJ: Isnt that like the biggest city in . . . well, Iowa City. 5 
TD: Its the capital city.   6 
AJ: OK, its the capital city.  Iowa City is a little bigger. 7 
TD: I think Des Moines is still the biggest, but Iowa City is definitely the most liberal city. 8 
AJ: Got it.  9 
TD: Its where the University of Iowa is and they tend to be really liberal.   10 
AJ: OK.  So you grew up in Des Moines.   11 
TD: Yes. 12 
AJ: What was that like  other than dead?   13 
TD: Yeah.  Very conservative, very Leave It To Beaver  dad went to work, mom stayed home and 14 raised the kids and most families that lived in our neighborhood were like that. 15 
AJ: Including yours? 16 
TD: Including mine.  We were expected to grow up and follow the rules as they were laid out to us.  I 17 was a tomboy, which was OK for a while.  Theres sort of this time in childhood where youre 18 sort of genderless, you know. 19 
AJ: Yes. 20 
TD: But anytime that we would go out in public, say to church or to eat or that kind of thing, I was 21 expected to wear female clothing and I hated it  hated it.   22 
AJ: Wow. 23 
TD: I cannot stand Easter to this day because there was all this hype leading up to it about the frilly 24 dress and the hat and the black patent leather shoes and the whole thing. 25 
AJ: The little handbag. 26 
TD: Yeah, everything.  It was awful for me and really emotionally torturous.  But it was very difficult 27 to explain that to my parents.  They knew from a very early age that I went running around 28 saying, Im a boy, Im a boy.  They would go like, OK, youre a tomboy but youll grow out of 29 it.   30 
AJ: Youll grow out of this  yes.  And you never did?   31 
TD: I never did.   32 
AJ: So, you were a self-described tomboy  or a boy.   1 
TD: Boy. 2 
AJ: In this bucolic Leave It To Beaver town in Iowa.  What was school like?  Did you go to public 3 school? Private school? Catholic school? 4 
TD: I went to public school.   5 
AJ: OK. 6 
TD: And during the 1960s, during my elementary school years there was a dress code and girls had 7 to wear dresses.  So I was in a dress every day at school. 8 
AJ: Oh wow, in public school. 9 
TD: In public school.  I remember one time coming home, it was in the spring and my mom and the 10 next door neighbor wanted to take a picture of me and my next door neighbor, Brian, because 11 we were coming home from school . . . nice new spring outfits and whatever.  I was like, No, I 12 want to go change my clothes.  Theyre like No, we want to take your picture like this.   13 
AJ: Wow, so that was a constant struggle for you, the clothes thing.   14 
TD: It was a constant struggle.  And then they dropped the dress code requirement, I think when I 15 was about in 6th grade, and as my mother said, She put on pants and I never got him out of 16 them since.   17 
AJ: That was the opening of the door, huh? 18 
TD: That was it.  I never wore . . . well, I had to wear dresses from time to time, but I never ever felt 19 comfortable in them. 20 
AJ: Wow.  No, thats a fairly common refrain.  Did you experience any bullying or any sort of 21 harassment because of your ideations around being a boy? 22 
TD: No, not really when I was younger.  When you get a little older you just learned to keep your 23 mouth shut. 24 
AJ: Yes, for safety reasons or emotional . . . people want to be liked and loved. 25 
TD: There was no way to reality check things back then.  I couldnt say, Oh, I feel like a boy, and 26 have someone or people or information out there going, Yeah, thats real, its true, its valid.  I 27 remember one time, I suppose I was just coming into puberty where I asked my female neighbor 28 friends, Arent you guys just pissed off you werent born a boy?  And they looked at me like I 29 had three heads and they were like, No. 30 
AJ: We hate boys. 31 
TD: Yeah, why would we want to be a boy? And right then and there I knew I could never talk about 32 it out loud again or people would think that I was crazy.  And so I didnt get bullied because I 33 kept my mouth shut, but when I went to college and I came out as a lesbian, I was bullied by the 34 girls in my dormitory room. 35 
AJ: Where did you go to school? 1 
TD: Iowa State University, or as we call it Iowa Straight University. 2 
AJ: Iowa Straight University.  So coming out as a lesbian was not a friendly experience for you.  3 
TD: No, it really wasnt.  A lot of harassment, people went through my desk and they found a book 4 entitled, Is the Homosexual My Neighbor? 5 
AJ: Wow, OK.   6 
TD: They gave me fits about that, never mind that they violated my privacy.    7 
AJ: Whats the genesis of Is the Homosexual My Neighbor?  Im just curious. 8 
TD: Its a religious book, its about Christianity and Christians accepting homosexuality. 9 
AJ: So its around acceptance.   10 
TD: Right.  And when I was a sophomore in college . . . 11 
AJ: And they saw this book thats talking about tolerance and you give you crap for it?  They gave 12 you shit for it?   13 
TD: Yeah. 14 
AJ: Wow. 15 
TD: Yeah, they didnt read the book.  I read the book. 16 
AJ: They just judged the book by its cover. 17 
TD: Yes, literally.  And when I was a sophomore I was involved with a support group for gay 18 students.  I was asked, as a part of that support group, if I would be willing to tell my story and I 19 began to do GLBT education when I was 19-years-old.  We went around and we talked to all of 20 the Resident Assistants at all the dorms and stuff like that. 21 
AJ: Wow, so youve been an activist for a long time.   22 
TD: Yeah.  I just figured that the only way that you can move forward is to have an open discussion 23 about things and to not hide things.  And that was true then and its true now.   24 
AJ: So, when is the first time you really recognized that you were not the gender you were assigned 25 at birth? 26 
TD: I was very, very young  Id have to say that I always knew.  27 
AJ: Really? 28 
TD: Yeah.  I never felt like a girl, I never embraced anything girly.  I always felt like I should have 29 been in a different body and I had these sort of magical thoughts and hopes that when I came of 30 age, instead of beginning to menstruate, I would magically grow a penis.  Didnt happen.  31 Instead I grew very large breasts, which was really difficult to deal with for a long time but it was 32 like, I dont have any choice, this is what I was dealt.  I remember when I had my top surgery 33 done many years later, when I was in my 30s, one of my friends looked at me and said, Now 1 you look like you fit into your body.   2 
AJ: So that was an acknowledgement from a friend.  3 
TD: Right, yeah.   4 
AJ: And was your top surgery a step towards your gender confirmation? 5 
TD: Yes.  Back then, this would have been in the early 1990s, you had to live in the gender of your 6 choice for at least six months.  And by living they mean go to work, go to school, shop at the 7 grocery store.  So everything that you normally do in your life and do it in the gender of your 8 choice.  But my breasts were so large that I couldnt bind myself to the point of being able to 9 pass.  So, they made an exception in my case so I got my top surgery done and then I began to 10 live as male. 11 
AJ: Wow.  Thank you.  So you realized when you were very young but there was no real language 12 around it, like you said there were no real role models  particularly for trans masculine 13 identified folks at that time.  I mean, there were very few for anybody but there were the drag 14 magazines for trans women.  But, what . . . so what terms did you use to sort of describe 15 yourself and how has that changed over time?  And you said you came out as a lesbian in 16 college, at 18, so I know one of the terms you used to describe yourself.  I would imagine some 17 people, even within the context of being lesbian  like butch lesbian or those kinds of . . .  18 
TD: Yeah, I considered myself a butch lesbian, but people who were more butch than me would look 19 at me as femme because I had really large breasts.  Its like, Thats . . . oh, OK, youre a 20 woman.  But I always . . . 21 
AJ: So they would hit on you? 22 
TD: Yeah, but I always considered myself butch.   23 
AJ: Did you ever date any butch women?   24 
TD: No.   25 
AJ: Really? 26 
TD: I take that back  once for a short period of time.  I was attracted to . . . well, Im attracted to 27 people with a good sense of humor because thats how I deal with the stress in my life. 28 
AJ: So youre a comedi-sexual.   29 
TD: Yeah. 30 
AJ: A comedy sexual  or humorsexual.   31 
TD: There you go. 32 
AJ: We just made up a new term, Terry. 33 
TD: Yeah.   34 
AJ: A humorsexual.  Youre attracted to people with a good sense of humor, but whats their 1 physical . . . femmes? 2 
TD: I dont really have . . . yeah, femmes.  But I dont really have a good physical type.  I dont have 3 to have the model skinny person.  Just regular folks.  I never talked about how I felt about my 4 gender . . .  5 
AJ: In your relationships? 6 
TD: In my relationships, until shortly before I decided that yes being transgender is a real thing and 7 yes I need to pursue that avenue so that I could be happy in my life.   8 
AJ: And then you started talking to your partner or partners about it? 9 
TD: Yeah. 10 
AJ: How did that go over? 11 
TD: Well, it was very strange because I ended up . . . I was living in the foothills of the Ozark 12 Mountains, a very rural area, in southern Missouri. 13 
AJ: So you had left Des Moines by this time? 14 
TD: I had left Des Moines and moved into a little cabin in the woods so that I could be, in my mind, 15 the male that I thought I was.  If I dont have to deal with the rest of the world calling me she 16 then I can live my being . . . live feeling male as I was and not having any external distractions to 17 remind me that I wasnt, that my body wasnt male. 18 
AJ: So you did almost like . . . kind of The Rogue kind of thing, huh? 19 
TD: Exactly.  But I ended up meeting a woman down there whose stepfather happened to be female 20 to male. 21 
AJ: What? 22 
TD: Yeah. 23 
AJ: Shut the front door. 24 
TD: Yeah, they werent from there.  They were originally from Rockford, Illinois, but they moved 25 down there. 26 
AJ: So the Ozarks, the foothills is like this sort of magnet for trans men? 27 
TD: Well, sort of alternative . . . 28 
AJ: Rugged trans men. 29 
TD: Alternative people in general. 30 
AJ: All right. 31 
TD: A lot of new-age hippie type people down there, but a lot of rednecks.  But through him I 1 actually . . . he gave me the information that he had from the Janus Society, which I dont even 2 know if it still exists.   3 
AJ: Whats it called?  J-a-m-a? 4 
TD: J-a-n-u-s.  Janus.   5 
AJ: Oh, Janus.  Im not familiar with the Janus Society.  6 
TD: I think they were one of the first that put out information on transitioning.   7 
AJ: Oh wow.   8 
TD: And it had information about how to bind and what not, those type of things. 9 
AJ: So was it specifically geared towards female to male trans people?   10 
TD: No, the Society  the Janus Society was for all trans people.  The information I got was 11 specifically for female to male. 12 
AJ: OK, got it. 13 
TD: Yeah.  So that was . . .  14 
AJ: So was this person, this stepfather guy  was he the first trans person you ever met?   15 
TD: Yes. 16 
AJ: Yes.  Did he have a big impact?  Well clearly he had some impact on you because he gave you 17 this information that you used to go on and transform your entire life.   18 
TD: Yeah. 19 
AJ: Are you still in contact with him?   20 
TD: No, it was a very dysfunctional family and I left as soon as I figured that out, never to return 21 again.   22 
AJ: Oh wow.  OK. 23 
TD: But as you can imagine, its very difficult to transition in a rural area.   24 
AJ: Yeah, talk to me about that. 25 
TD: I was working at the mental health agency in town at the time.  I told them what was going on 26 with me and what I was doing.  They were a little freaked out.  They didnt want to fire me 27 outright because they were afraid of a lawsuit so what they did was they more or less starved 28 me out by putting me into an office with no windows and giving me just busywork to do and I 29 had no connection with anybody really in the agency.  And that was after they decided that I 30 would make an announcement to the entire agency, including people in satellite offices  we 31 were the main office and the little towns often had satellite offices.  So they closed the agency 32 for a half a day, everybody came into the main office and I was told that I needed to tell 1 everybody what I was going to do.   2 
AJ: Wow. 3 
TD: And that really opened me up to a lot of . . . I dont know, pain and suffering.  The things that 4 people were saying. 5 
AJ: Hostility and . . . 6 
TD: Yeah.  Its like youre re-creating the trauma of your childhood but I didnt have any trauma in 7 my childhood.  It was really interesting because all of the counselors and the mental health 8 professionals, that was their line of thinking  like, This is just really crazy, off-base.  And all of 9 the support staff, like the secretaries . . . 10 
AJ: They had no understanding of these . . . 11 
TD: They were like, Well, we dont really understand it but well support Terry in what he thinks he 12 needs to do.  I thought that was really interesting. 13 
AJ: Yeah  so this was the support staff and not the trained psychologists and social workers. 14 
TD: Exactly.   15 
AJ: Wow. 16 
TD: So eventually I moved here to Minnesota because I had friends here.  I really didnt know what a 17 rich environment Minneapolis/St. Paul was for the LGBTQ community.  I was really able to . . . by 18 the time I moved up here I was passing as male full time.   19 
AJ: OK.  When do you think that was?  Do you remember? 20 
TD: That was in the fall of 1993.  It was about a year after Id started taking hormones.  So my hair 21 started to fall out of my head and start growing on my face.   22 
AJ: You had immediate affects, huh? 23 
TD: Immediate affects. 24 
AJ: Wow, OK.  Oh man. 25 
TD: Its just been really good here and Ive been a part of the community and Ive met a wonderful 26 woman and married her and weve been married for 15 years. 27 
AJ: Wow, congratulations.   28 
TD: Yeah.   29 
AJ: I have the good fortune of knowing that beautiful woman, your bride, and she is amazing.  But 30 you know, Terry, I want to go back to this sort of idea that, you know, you grew up and came out 31 in the lesbian community.  And during that time period, lesbian was pretty strongly identified 32 with feminism and so Im wondering what is the experience like, for you, transitioning from 33 lesbian to trans man.  What were some of the challenges involved with that?  And then also, did 34 that experience being in the lesbian community, sort of impact your own politics around 1 patriarchy and male privilege and all of those kinds of things? 2 
TD: Well, Im definitely a feminist and I was pretty active and vocal about that in my youth, meaning 3 college plus  and still am.  Sometimes when Im around gruff men who objectify women it just 4 galls me to no end and actually makes me feel like I want to vomit.   5 
AJ: Wow. 6 
TD: I try to say things to enlighten people but stop short of actually getting into an argument with 7 them.  I think I have a pretty good idea of what feminism is about and like to be seen as a man 8 who is a feminist because I think that when we include all people in our humanity we all become 9 better.  Yeah, I dont know.  I dont know if people listening are aware of an event called the 10 Michigan Womens Music Festival, which is a music event that is held every year, in Michigan!   11 
AJ: Well, I think the last one was last year though.  They ended it. 12 
TD: Oh they ended it.  Wow, see I didnt know that because see once I transitioned I could never go 13 back.  But I would always say that that is the only time in my life when I felt really good about 14 being female  was going to the Womens Festival. 15 
AJ: The Michigan Womens . . .  16 
TD: The Michigan Womens Music Festival.   17 
AJ: Wow.  And so you felt embraced in your lesbian community.  What happened when you came 18 out?  You couldnt go back to the Womens Music Fest. 19 
TD: Right, right.   20 
AJ: How did the lesbian community respond?  Were you still able to get dates?  Were you still able 21 to have your same social circles? 22 
TD: By the time I got up here I was passing as male, but I was always very out about who I was. 23 
AJ: About your trans identity. 24 
TD: Yes.  And the friends who invited me up here to live were lesbians and their friends, in turn, 25 were lesbians.  They all knew about me.  I happened to have met a woman and we got married 26 and the marriage fell apart after a year because she was a lesbian-identified woman.  She 27 happened to be a teacher at a Catholic school and I think she thought of me as sort of like the 28 perfect person in her life to give her cover as being a straight woman in a Catholic school, but 29 yet . . . 30 
AJ: In a queer or . . .  31 
TD: Right.   32 
AJ: Relationship. 33 
TD: Right  yeah.  It was interesting in that a couple of her friends who didnt know about me were 1 very standoffish with me when they first met me  and every time that we had an encounter, 2 until they found out that I was a trans man.  Then they were warm and accepting. 3 
AJ: Oh wow, thats interesting. 4 
TD: It is, but I dont think its any better than the other position because theyre both from a position 5 of prejudice.   6 
AJ: Yes . . . and we have a grandfather clock. 7 
TD: Its the mantle clock. 8 
AJ: The mantle clock. 9 
TD: Thank you mantle clock.  Its over 100 years old. 10 
AJ: Oh wow.  You guys have some beautiful clocks in your home.   11 
TD: Yeah, Janet likes them.   12 
AJ: Is that your wife? 13 
TD: Yes, Janet is blind.  Shes my wife, they make noise  lots of things.  Everything in this house 14 either talks, beeps or has a dot on it.   15 
AJ: OK.  So well know the temperature outside pretty soon because theres a thermometer that will 16 tell us.   17 
TD: Yes.   18 
AJ: Thats pretty awesome.  So you didnt have . . . Ive talked to other people who have sort of 19 experienced being shunned within the lesbian community when they come out as trans men, 20 but that wasnt necessarily your experience? 21 
TD: No, it wasnt necessarily my experience at that point in time, until I got a divorce from my first 22 wife.   23 
AJ: Oh. 24 
TD: And then nobody wanted to have anything to do with me.  It was like they chose sides and they 25 chose her side.   26 
AJ: OK.  Do you think that had to do with your identity or just sort of the regular old divorce friends 27 take sides? 28 
TD: A little bit of both, I think.  Yeah, I think a little bit of both.   29 
AJ: Yeah.  What challenges have you faced since youve come out as being transgender, Terry? 30 
TD: I guess I would have to say that most of the challenges Ive faced had to do with the early stages 31 of my transition. 32 
AJ: OK, that makes sense. 33 
TD: You know, when I wasnt quite passing and didnt know if I would be called he or she, telling my 1 family, friends . . . you know, some stayed and some left.  Its fine that they self-select because I 2 dont want to be around any negativity  its hard enough to do this as it is, you need all the 3 support you can get.  My family wasnt really supportive.  I guess in a way I would describe them 4 as lukewarm because, as we talked about earlier, my mom and my sister really had trouble with 5 the pronouns  they finally came around and mom, until the day she died, called me he and 6 even when referring to my childhood still used masculine pronouns. 7 
AJ: Really?  Way to go, mom. 8 
TD: Yes.  And so she should be commended for that, but she also did some really crappy stuff  like 9 when my favorite uncle died, and youre talking about shunning  I mean, I was shunned from 10 the funeral and that was extremely painful emotionally and it was just completely over my 11 mothers head.  She just had no empathy for me at all and she said she didnt want to have to 12 answer questions about me to family members she hadnt seen in 20 years.   13 
AJ: Wow. 14 
TD: And my reply has always been, You dont have to answer the questions, I will.  Ill talk to them.  15 But she was like, No.  And just didnt tell me what the arrangements were for his funeral.  She 16 got there and she said, As it turns out, I had to answer questions about you anyway.   17 
AJ: Why isnt Terry here?   18 
TD: Right.  Whats she doing these days?  That type of thing.  On the other hand, when I went to 19 Montreal to get my bottom surgery done, my dad came with me.   20 
AJ: All right. 21 
TD: So he was supportive.  He always said, I dont really understand this, but I love you and I want 22 you to be happy.   23 
AJ: Wow, thats beautiful.  So you had some positive experiences with family and some not so 24 positive. 25 
TD: Yes. 26 
AJ: Any impacts on your professional life beyond the early days of coming out and you were in the 27 Ozarks and they sort of iced you out of your job? 28 
TD: Right, exactly.  No, really, not . . . because as I said, I was passing when I was up here and so I 29 was hired as male and the only time it ever actually came up again was when I needed time off 30 for my bottom surgery.  I told my supervisor at work, I said, Im transitioning and I need six 31 weeks, or whatever.  He said, Are you going to tell your clients?  I work in the field of mental 32 health.  I said, No, why should I?  And my supervisor said, Because dont you think it will be 33 very difficult for them when you come back and youre a woman?  I went, Oh no, no, no.  34 (laughter) 35 
AJ: Oh wow.   36 
TD: It was like, Oh, yeah, OK.  I guess not everybody knows this about me.  So then I told him the 1 truth.  Actually and anecdotally I ran into an old client of mine who didnt know I was trans 2 when I was seeing him and someone at my old office told him I was trans.  And he said, Terrys 3 a woman now?  They had the same exact . . .  4 
AJ: Wow.   5 
TD: Yeah.   6 
AJ: Oh man, that makes me think about this term passing, because youve used it a couple of times.  7 What do you feel about the term?  What do you feel about the concept?  And youve also said 8 you were pretty open about coming out, where are you now about your trans identity? 9 
TD: Im still very open and I feel like education is crucial to people being able to move forward on 10 many, many, many fronts.  The term passing, its so engrained in the trans culture that I grew up 11 in . . .  12 
AJ: And Im not criticizing you for using the term, please dont hear that.  Im just asking you about 13 the term. 14 
TD: I dont think of myself as, Oh, Im passing for male.  Ive always thought of myself as, I am 15 male.  Theres a lot of people out there who are really androgynous or gender neutral and I 16 really dont know what they are and then I think, Well, I dont really have to know.  They look 17 and . . . 18 
AJ: Unless they want to use the bathroom, then you need to know. 19 
TD: Right  in North Carolina, and then they do genital check.  I have no idea . . . but yeah.  So yeah, I 20 dont think about it that way anymore and I dont necessarily go up to people and go, Hi, Im 21 Terry the transsexual.   22 
AJ: Right. 23 
TD: But if people ask me anything, Ill tell them. 24 
AJ: Its a complicated phenomenon, if you will, because passing is about safety for people too.  If 25 you are perceived as transgressing gender, in either direction, it can be some life threatening 26 consequences that ensue.  It certainly can present a challenge for people. 27 
TD: Yeah, and even if it doesnt go to the point of being life threatening, you might imagine there 28 could be some awkward encounters with the police, for example.  If somebody thought . . .  29 
AJ: Which, in my case, can be life threatening as an African American trans woman, encounters with 30 the police are not at the top of my list. 31 
TD: You definitely have a bullseye on you. 32 
AJ: Yeah. 33 
TD: Unfortunately.  Even if people think that Im in the wrong bathroom, if they . . . on a school 1 campus or something and go get the security guard or something, Theres a man in the 2 womans bathroom.  My experience in the mens bathroom is nobody really pays attention.   3 
AJ: I feel embarrassed to ask this question but I think just because of all of this talk thats going on, 4 do you ever go in the womens bathroom? 5 
TD: No, never.  No.  6 
AJ: I just cant even imagine you stepping foot into that space anymore.   7 
TD: Not at all, but if I had to present my birth certificate . . . it doesnt now, but it had at one time 8 said female. 9 
AJ: So youve had that changed? 10 
TD: Yes. 11 
AJ: Talk to me about your medical history, Terry.  You have disclosed that youve had top surgery, 12 went to Montreal with your dad and had bottom surgery.  So youre pretty open about your 13 medical status and medical transition, but what was it like and what all procedures did you 14 have? 15 
TD: I gotta tell you . . . 16 
AJ: To the extent that you feel comfortable, because I dont want this to feel like Im an interloper 17 or . . .? 18 
TD: Sure.  Well, as I mentioned, I was very top heavy.  It took four surgeries to reduce me, thats 19 how large I was. 20 
AJ: Four?  My goodness. 21 
TD: Yes. It was such a relief. 22 
AJ: Did you save a bra from that?   23 
TD: No. 24 
AJ: Just as verification.  Oh wow. 25 
TD: And emotionally it was such a relief, and physically too because of the back problems.  26 
AJ: Right, exactly.   27 
TD: Yeah.  And I lived with just that amount of surgery for a number of years  like probably around 28 seven.  I then had . . . 29 
AJ: Were you taking hormones at the time?   30 
TD: I was taking hormones the whole time. 31 
AJ: Testosterone. 32 
TD: Yes.  I then had a hysterectomy and about a year after that I went to Montreal to have 1 phalloplasty. 2 
AJ: P-h-a-l-l-o-p-l-a-s-t-y.   3 
TD: M-o-u-s-e. 4 
AJ: OK.   5 
TD: I had . . .  6 
AJ: Is that a multiple stage surgery? 7 
TD: Yes it is.  The first stage is to create the new penis; the second surgery is to do an implant so that 8 you can have an erection and the third surgery is where they insert testicles  silicone testicles.   9 
AJ: Wow.   10 
TD: Testicles.   11 
AJ: Wow, so you got a whole new package. 12 
TD: I got a whole new package . . . and I like to open it up and play with it.   13 
AJ: Thats . . . wow.  Painful? 14 
TD: You know, it really wasnt because the nerves go numb and so youre really in this numb stage 15 for quite a while - with a phalloplasty, in particular.  The other two were a little more touchy.   16 
AJ: Does the feeling come back?   17 
TD: Yes.   18 
AJ: Thus, the like to play with it part.   19 
TD: Yeah.   20 
AJ: Thats awesome.  So, youre married.   21 
TD: Yes. 22 
AJ: For 15 years. 23 
TD: For 15 years, yes.   24 
AJ: Whats your sexual identity today?   25 
TD: I would have to say heterosexual for the most part.  If Im 100% completely honest, I guess it 26 would be bi-sexual because Im attracted to both women and men, but Im more emotionally 27 attracted to women than I am to men.   28 
AJ: Yeah. 29 
TD: I used to say Im quadrasexual because Ive been with women as a woman and Ive been with 1 women as a man, and Ive been with men as a woman and Ive been with men as a man.  So 2 quadrasexual. 3 
AJ: Quadrasexual.  OK, so you have two new terms today.  A humorsexual and a quadrasexual.  You 4 are a unique human being, Terry.   5 
TD: Im my own thesaurus.   6 
AJ: Exactly.  Oh wow. This is all just really fascinating to me.  What do you think your gender identity 7 . . . youve been pretty fortunate as a trans person to have been married twice.  Has your gender 8 identity played a role in your relationships and love or do people look beyond that?   9 
TD: Well, I think my gender identity definitely played a role in my first marriage and then when that 10 ended, dating was kind of difficult.  I fortunately never had to make this decision but when do 11 you tell someone?  Do you tell them right as youre starting to date?  Before the first kiss?  After 12 the first kiss?  Because me saying that I was born female could bring up a lot of feelings for my 13 partner around their own sexuality, you know.  But fortunately, my wife of 15 years knew before 14 she ever met me that I was transgender.   15 
AJ: OK. 16 
TD: And it became a non-issue for her.  She thought at first that I would sound very feminine or 17 something and be very strange and awkward, but . . . well, I am strange and awkward but not 18 because Im trans.  But yeah, she didnt have a problem with it and I actually prefer that people 19 know Im trans so that if Im talking about my past or whatever, I dont need to hide anything, I 20 dont need to be careful about how I talk about my experiences and thats very freeing.  I have a 21 stepson and I told him and he is now married and my daughter-in-law . . . 22 
AJ: I cant believe hes married. 23 
TD: I know. 24 
AJ: Just blows my mind  but I guess it has been 15 years.   25 
TD: Yes it has. 26 
AJ: So your daughter-in-law, Im sorry? 27 
TD: My daughter-in-law knows too, but her parents are very strictly Christian and they will never 28 know.  My wifes sister, so my sister and brother-in-law, they know, but Janets elderly father 29 will never know.   30 
AJ: What is that experience like?  Because they still know you, they know you  its not like youre 31 just gone.  They know you as Terry, Janets husband. 32 
TD: Right. Yeah.   33 
AJ: Do they really need to know that youre trans?  Do they need to know? 34 
TD: Well Janet at first didnt want to tell her sister because she thought that she would have some 1 problems with it and when we did tell her, Janet thought that she really wasnt as comfortable 2 with it as she said she was.  But we ended up telling them because of all the drama around my 3 uncles funeral.  They kind of had questions about why is Terry just being cut out of that.  And so 4 we had to tell them  and we did.  We sat in the living room and told them and my brother-in-5 law went, Youre trans?  Thats it?  I thought you were an ax murderer or something.  And now 6 I dont think it really crosses their mind much anymore.   7 
AJ: Just regular old Terry. 8 
TD: Just regular old Terry.   9 
AJ: You know, there was a time Terry, I know, you went on some wilderness excursions  beyond 10 the Ozarks.  You canoed down the Missouri River was it?   11 
TD: 450 miles  from Yankton, South Dakota to Kansas City, Missouri. 12 
AJ: What was that like? 13 
TD: Awesome.   14 
AJ: You went with a trans buddy too, right? 15 
TD: Yeah, he hadnt decided to transition yet.  He was always very masculine looking, a lot of the 16 time got mistaken for male when living as female.  A lot of old women walking out of the 17 bathroom and double checking the door to see if they accidently walked into the wrong one. 18 
AJ: Went into the mens room.   19 
TD: Yeah.   20 
AJ: Wow, my eyes are playing tricks on me.  21 
TD: Yeah.  But he decided after that trip that he would transition and he says it pushed him over the 22 edge when people assumed we were married to each other.  I cant believe people thought I 23 would marry you.   24 
AJ: Funny. 25 
TD: Yeah, but for the most part . . . once Ive transitioned and I look like this, I can use a urinal, there 26 really hasnt been much drama because people just see me as male.  The only time that Ive 27 been questioned was when I was on the phone for work one time and I was talking to a police 28 officer and she in turn called me both she and he and knowing that people get really wrapped 29 up about gender, I thought Id make it easier for her and I said, Well, just so you know, its he.  30 And she said, Well, I didnt know so I called you both and know you told me and I still dont 31 know.   32 
AJ: Yikes. 33 
TD: I was like, OK. 34 
AJ: I just told you.  What do you think she was confused about?  Your voice?   35 
TD: My voice  yeah.   1 
AJ: Even after you told her she just didnt want to believe you. 2 
TD: Yeah, she just didnt want to . . . I think its one of those things where she probably had the sort 3 of personality where youre just not going to tell me what to do.   4 
AJ: Right.  A police officer. 5 
TD: Exactly.   6 
AJ: Oh wow.  Hey Terry, what do you think is the relationship between the L, the G, the B, and the 7 T?   8 
TD: Well I dont know if I can digest all that and pull it all apart.  I used to tell people with LGBTQ, 9 Ive been all of them  start with the L.  Back in the day, we used to just say gay and that was 10 umbrella for homosexual men and lesbians.  I think that in the beginning of sort of the LGBT civil 11 rights movement at Stonewall Inn, that we began to become more aware, more aware of 12 ourselves as a community and of our differences. 13 
AJ: Within the community? 14 
TD: Within the community.  And shared struggles and different struggles.  I know that just because 15 you say that you are a member of the LGBT community doesnt mean that youre necessarily OK 16 with all of the elements within that community.  I think that there is transphobia among gay and 17 lesbian and bisexual people probably too . . . maybe.  So I think that we need intercommunity 18 communication as well as we need to communicate with the outside world, which . . . you know, 19 by default the only normal human being is a white heterosexual male.  Right? 20 
AJ: Yeah. 21 
TD: And everyone else is other.  22 
AJ: Yeah, thats true. 23 
TD: And I think we have to, as a community, embrace all of ourselves, all of our differences, and 24 continue to educate other, read  you, Joe Six Pack, about how human beings come in all 25 flavors.  We are not a one-species fits all.  So yeah.  And I think the dialogue needs to continue 26 and its still going to be . . . weve come a long, long way since I started talking about gay and 27 lesbian issues in 1979.   28 
AJ: Wow. 29 
TD: And Im astounded when I look back on it today where we have been and where we are now 30 and its been in a relatively short period of time.  The Stonewall Riots were in 1969 and, you 31 know, its sort of like it builds slowly and then all of a sudden its like this momentum and its 32 like a snowball rolling downhill and it just gets bigger and bigger and bigger.   33 
AJ: Yeah. 34 
TD: Its a wonderful thing to see but also, I think thats why were getting pushback  like with the 1 bathroom bills.  I always think of every system wants to meet . . . have an equilibrium and its 2 sort of like if the pendulum swings way far one way, its got swing almost as far the other way . . 3 . 4 
AJ: Before it balances out. 5 
TD: Before it comes back to some type of homeostasis.   6 
AJ: I love that word homeostasis.   7 
TD: Yeah. 8 
AJ: Its so queer. 9 
TD: So I kind of am viewing some of whats going on now politically in that light.   10 
AJ: Got it.  Its funny, since you identify as L . . . at some point in your life as LGB or T  or Q, I could 11 have just asked you whats your relationship with yourself.  12 
TD: Mostly right handed, sometimes the left.  No.  I hope thats OK. 13 
AJ: Its perfectly OK with me.   14 
TD: I dont know, I guess I really dont think of it much.  Im very versed in 1980s lesbian music.  15 
AJ: OK.   16 
TD: I know when Ive talked to people . . .  17 
AJ: So Joan Armatrading. 18 
TD: And Holly Near, Ronnie Gilbert.  So, when people ask me, What kind of music did you listen to 19 in the 1980s?  I say, I was in my lesbian phase.   20 
AJ: Funny.   21 
TD: So I feel like I have . . . I feel like my community, that my culture, in a way is the queer 22 community.  I feel thats where I fit in best.  People are just going to assume Im straight because 23 Im married and if they dont know about me, they dont know.   24 
AJ: Youre fairly Ozzie and Harriet.   25 
TD: Yeah.  I dont . . . what was I going to say?  I dont necessarily feel 100% comfortable or 26 confident  for example, with my daughter-in-laws parents because I feel, I have a secret.  27 And I cant tip my hand and show that secret to them or bad, bad things are going to happen.  28 So Ill never feel totally comfortable in a just straight environment.   29 
AJ: Interesting.  Have you ever worked for or volunteered for any trans or LGBT organizations?   30 
TD: Yeah.  You know that, because you and I do this, we talk to the U of M medical students and also 31 at the Mayo Clinic.  I did some volunteering with RECLAIM! as they were setting up their trans 32 youth support group.  There is such a need for it.  The group kept getting bigger and bigger, we 33 outgrew the RECLAIM! office.  We moved to a secondary location and we outgrew that office.  1 We then separated ourselves from RECLAIM! and renamed our group Transforming Families and 2 its a peer support group for youth and their families.  It is well over 100 families, I think, now.  3 We have kids as young as 5, we have a siblings group, and its all done by people in the 4 community and there is just a wealth and depth of knowledge that all of these individuals have 5 established because of doing their own research because their kid or whatever is transgender 6 and, What do we do about that?   7 
AJ: Is there any support for children or young people who have transgender parents within 8 Transforming Families?  9 
TD: Not to my knowledge of that.  There have been a few family members who are in some ways 10 gender queer.  I know there was one family member who decided that she wanted to transition 11 to he and that was not going over well with her partner because her partner was identified as a 12 lesbian.  But as far as the kid went, that wasnt an issue because the kid was female to male. 13 
AJ: Oh, the kid was trans? 14 
TD: Yeah.   15 
AJ: OK.  So wow, so youve done quite a bit of volunteer and employment.  What do you think the 16 agenda is for the trans community going forward?  And let me add to that question  youve 17 already sort of identified some things around backlash and such.  I mean, the visibility of the 18 transgender community has just skyrocketed  like you just identified.  I mean, what weve 19 witnessed in the past five years I, 15 years ago, had no rationale vision that this could happen. 20 
TD: Yeah.   21 
AJ: Whats your thoughts about that?  And then what do you think is the agenda for the trans 22 community going forward? 23 
TD: Its still a struggle.  There is a lot of education that needs to be done around transgender stuff, 24 especially in regards to institutions  schools, which bathroom are you going to go into?  The 25 military, incarceration, and . . .  26 
AJ: Employment. 27 
TD: Employment.  And like we had just got done talking about, transgender youth.  I think they . . . 28 we are now in a time when people recognize that being transgender is a real thing, its not made 29 up, its not a phase, you are not mentally ill.  They are now recognizing that very often people 30 know early, early on  like I did.  I never not knew.  As I stated, we have a 5-year-old in our 31 group.  Now the 5-year-old doesnt sit around and talk about gender. 32 
AJ: Right. 33 
TD: The little kids color and play with toys but they can go there and express their gender freely and 34 not be afraid.   35 
AJ: Sure. 36 
TD: So if theres . . . I think its harder for little boys who want to be little girls, than it is for girls who 1 want to be boys because I think there is so much homophobia regarding men that if you look 2 like a sissy, youre in your dress and your name is Marcus or whatever, that a lot of people are 3 going to have a hard time wrapping their head around that.  So its a safe place for the very 4 young kids to go and express themselves. 5 
AJ: So where do you see this snowball effect thats really just taken off in the last 50 years? Where 6 do you see things headed in the next 50 years?  Fifty years from now  lets put it that way . . . 7 when people are watching this tape and well both be very, very old.  8 
TD: If alive.  I would like to think that our progress will continue sort of exponentially to the point 9 where we dont have to discuss it, where its just a non-issue  you are what you are.  Also, I 10 think for people who identify as gender queer, like the rest of the world is like, What?  What 11 does that mean?  I think for those people especially, being accepted as OK we dont have to put 12 you in a box of male or female, that that is really going to be freeing, where there is an 13 acceptance of sort of a third gender . . . third or fourth or fifth, infinite expression of gender.  Im 14 hoping in 50 years from now that nobody is talking about it, were just doing it  whatever it is.   15 
AJ: Gender doesnt matter. 16 
TD: Gender doesnt matter. 17 
AJ: Wow, thats a great place to end.   18 
TD: Yeah. 19 
AJ: Thank you, Terry, for your generosity of spirit and humor and sharing your story with us today. 20 
TD: Thank you.  You know I love you.   21 
AJ: Ohh, I love you too.  Peace out. 22 

