   
Dona Ewing Narrator   Andrea Jenkins Interviewer 
    
The Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies University of Minnesota 
April 4, 2016 
 
 
   

 
  
The Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story, while providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source material about the transgender community.  The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for current and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public. 
The Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300 individuals over the next three years.  Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and experiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality.  This project will be led by Andrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist.  Andrea brings years of experience working in government, non-profits and LGBT organizations.  If you are interested in being involved in this exciting project, please contact Andrea. 
Andrea Jenkins jenki120@umn.edu (612) 625-4379 
   
 
Andrea Jenkins -AJ 1 
Dona Ewing  -DE 2 
 3 
 4 
AJ: So, hello.   5 
DE: Id say youre about 44.   6 
AJ: Youre close.  My name is Andrea Jenkins and I am here today with Dona Ewing.  Today is April 4, 7 2016, and we are in the Augustana Nursing Care Facility in Minneapolis.  How are you doing, 8 Dona? 9 
DE: Not too bad.   10 
AJ: Not too bad, thats good.  Can you tell me what is your . . . state your name and how you spell 11 it? 12 
DE: Dona Ewing.  Its D-o-n-a and Ewing is E-w-i-n-g.   13 
AJ: OK.  And then what is the pronoun that you prefer people call you as, Dona?   14 
DE: Dona. 15 
AJ: Dona, all righty.  What is your gender identity? 16 
DE: Transsexual. 17 
AJ: Transsexual, OK.  So what was your gender when you were born? 18 
DE: A boy. 19 
AJ: You were born a boy? 20 
DE: Yeah. 21 
AJ: All right.  So Dona can you tell me what is the earliest thing you remember in your life?  I know 22 you are . . .  23 
DE: Well I was a premature baby.  I weighed 3 lb and 2 oz when I was born and I was sickly. Every 24 time there was some disease going around, Id catch it and Id miss a lot of school.  They didnt 25 think Id live. They told my mother, shed have to feed me three or four times before Id keep 26 the food down, and they told my mother if she pulled me through theyd call her A#1 nurse 27 because she had to feed me sometimes three or four times before Id keep the food down.  Id 28 vomit a lot. 29 
AJ: Oh wow. 30 
DE: And I was sickly when I was born  I wore a belt  had to . . . when I came out, lay down, put the 31 belt on.  I was never . . . I always was around women, I didnt like sports or anything.  I would 32 dress up in my mamas clothes and play house a lot. 33 
AJ: Really? 1 
DE: I liked paper dolls  cut them out.  I never did anything manny.   2 
AJ: Did your mother know about this? 3 
DE: Oh yeah, they all knew that I was different but they thought because I was sickly a lot and I had 4 a lot of care.  But I was different.  One time my dad, when I had scarlet fever and almost died . . . 5 I almost died many times, and he went to Canada and brought me back a jacket with fur around 6 the hood.  I was only in my young teens and some man from out of town he says, Well, whose 7 little doll are you?  I just ignored him, my father was right there.  But when I talked and people . 8 . . they didnt know if I was a boy or a girl. 9 
AJ: Is that right? 10 
DE: Yeah. 11 
AJ: Where did you grow up? 12 
DE: Crookston, Minnesota.   13 
AJ: In Crookston, Minnesota.  Thats kind of a small town, a real small town. 14 
DE: Yeah. 15 
AJ: And people knew your family but they still didnt know if you were a boy or a girl, huh? 16 
DE: No. 17 
AJ: Wow.  How did that make you feel growing up?   18 
DE: And they said . . . well some of them said, Well, I think maybe hes a hermaphrodite or 19 something, maybe both sexes.  I went to Valley City one time, went to the drug store and 20 picked up some medicine  my aunt and uncle live there.   21 
AJ: To Valley City you said? 22 
DE: Yeah, Valley City, North Dakota.   23 
AJ: OK. 24 
DE: And a couple of women were there and they heard me talk and they said, Is that a man or a 25 woman?  I think its a dyke.  Im not sure what it is.  And when I left the drug store they walked 26 behind me and they came up to me and said, We want to ask you a personal question  what 27 are you?  A man or a woman or are you a hermaphrodite?  I said, Thats a $64,000 question.  28 I thought they were so rude I was going to give them a rude answer. 29 
AJ: Yeah, thats very rude.  Were you an adult then or were you still a . . .? 30 
DE: I was in my older teens.   31 
AJ: OK.   32 
DE: Of course I had sex with a lot . . . I lived as a gay person.  I had sex with the richest people in 1 town to the other side of the tracks. 2 
AJ: Really? 3 
DE: Everybody thought I was . . . they thought of me as queer.   4 
AJ: Right. 5 
DE: Oh hes queerer than a $2 bill.  6 
AJ: Oh boy. 7 
DE: And when I went to the showhouses and go to the shows with all these teenagers, everybody 8 knew but nobody harmed me because my father had 10,000 acres of land, he was a big farmer  9 a lot of money.  We were the first ones in town that had TV and our garage door opened by a 10 button pushed in the car  this was like 50 or 60 years ago. 11 
AJ: What year were you born, Dona?  Could you state that? 12 
DE: 1933. 13 
AJ: 1933. 14 
DE: February 4, 1933. 15 
AJ: So youre 83-years old. 16 
DE: Im 83-years old. 17 
AJ: Did you grow up with brothers and sisters in Crookston? 18 
DE: My sister and I lived with my mother.  She was real smart and belonged to Jobs Daughters.  She 19 was really pretty  normal in every way.  I cooked, she always went to all the sports and stuff.  20 She was very . . . cheerleader and you know, belonged to Jobs Daughters and all that. 21 
AJ: Jobs Daughters? 22 
DE: Yeah, thats a religious organization. 23 
AJ: OK, Jobs Daughters.  Ive never heard of that before. 24 
DE: Im not saying it right.   25 
AJ: Im sure youre saying it right.   26 
DE: The ones that have the school . . . or hospital for crippled children.   27 
AJ: OK. 28 
DE: Shriners. 29 
AJ: The Shriners. 30 
DE: Shriners, my dad was a Shriner.  They had a club for women and young girls, they had dances 1 and wore gowns and did all the proper things.   2 
AJ: Oh wow. 3 
DE: It was a bit of high . . . 4 
AJ: High society. 5 
DE: Yeah. 6 
AJ: So just you and your sister, just the two of you? 7 
DE: Yeah, and then my dad got married again and I had to half-brothers and a half-sister.  My one 8 brother, my baby brother lives in St. Paul, and when I cooked on the farm for all the hired men, 9 my step-mother sent the two boys out to the farm  Mark and Dale.  Well Dale lives in Denver, 10 Colorado  married and retired now.  He was a construction worker on those big cranes.  My 11 baby brother lives on the other side of St. Paul.  He just retired.  He worked for the county and 12 put chemicals in water.  A city government job.   13 
AJ: Yeah, to keep the water drinkable and make it fresh  yeah. 14 
DE: Yeah.  And then my half-sister, she lives in Washington, DC.  Shes retired now too.  Shes good 15 to me. 16 
AJ: Really? 17 
DE: Yeah, she sends me money now and then. 18 
AJ: So you still have a relationship with your . . .  19 
DE: I have a relationship with all of them.   20 
AJ: With all of them.   21 
DE: Yeah. 22 
AJ: And theyre all still alive? 23 
DE: Yes, all alive.  Im the oldest.   24 
AJ: Youre the oldest.   25 
DE: Im the oldest.  And my one sister, my real sister, shell be 82 now May 24th and the others are 26 all in their 60s.  But were all close.  They call me and they come and see me and they buy me 27 things. 28 
AJ: Thats beautiful. 29 
DE: I used to buy them things when I worked. 30 
AJ: Yeah, because theyre very young and you were older. 31 
DE: Yeah, I was the oldest in the family.   32 
AJ: So, what was . . . when is the first time you realized I am really a woman?  When did you realize 1 that you were not the gender that everybody thought you were? 2 
DE: Well, I knew I was different.  I didnt like boy things and I liked to be around women.  I liked to 3 cook and keep house.  I used to dress up in womens clothes and I always knew I liked men.   4 
AJ: Yeah. 5 
DE: I slept on the farm . . . sometimes Id sleep in the . . . the hired men would sleep with me and 6 play around with me. 7 
AJ: Oh really. 8 
DE: My mother saw cum on my pajamas but she just thought that they bumped against me and 9 came. She didnt know they were fucking me in the ass.   10 
AJ: Oh wow. 11 
DE: People didnt ask questions in those days. 12 
AJ: How old would you say when that was happening?   13 
DE: 6 or 7. 14 
AJ: 6 or 7?  Oh boy, OK.  So you really liked men?   15 
DE: And had a lot of them.   16 
AJ: Wow. 17 
DE: In fact, back in Crookston, the men . . . when I was 18, I was a full-fledged cocksucker or 18 whatever you want to say.   19 
AJ: OK, OK.   20 
DE: I had three generations.  I had my dads age, their son  who were married with children, and I 21 had their sons. 22 
AJ: Their sons. 23 
DE: I had three generations.   24 
AJ: Oh boy, you were a busy lady. 25 
DE: Yeah  busy, busy, busy.   26 
AJ: Busy, busy, busy. 27 
DE: They talked about me  the whole town talked about me.  But I didnt care, I was ruthless.  My 28 father bought me clothes and I went on trips.  I lived a good life. 29 
AJ: You had a good life, yeah.  So you didnt have any concern about what people thought or . . .? 30 
DE: Yeah, I could care less.  When Id go on a trip and come back home and Id go to the show 1 house, theyd say, Oh Miss Ewing is back in town.  And Id drag my cashmere coat down the 2 aisle in the theatre and they all clapped.   3 
AJ: Nice, you were a classy girl. 4 
DE: Yeah.  Queen. 5 
AJ: Youre a queen.   6 
DE: And I had cars and I dressed real nice as a boy.  I had pants tailor made, I had a black jacket and 7 pink pants.  I had a pink jacket and black pants so I could switch them . . .  8 
AJ: Switch it up, huh?  9 
DE: And I had tons of clothes. 10 
AJ: A clothes horse. 11 
DE: Yeah.  Materialistic . . . I never had the love I wanted but I took advantage of materialistic things.   12 
AJ: You never had the love that you wanted you said? 13 
DE: Yeah. 14 
AJ: So youve never been married?   15 
DE: No. 16 
AJ: You had long-term boyfriends. 17 
DE: Oh yeah.  I could have gotten married a couple of times but when I was younger they wanted 18 me to run away with them but hed come from a good family and I wanted him to be educated 19 like his family.  And another thing I had problems . . . I was street-wise but I was dyslexic  I cant 20 read or write.   21 
AJ: Oh, dyslexic.   22 
DE: Yeah, I cant read or write.  I was street-wise and I had a good personality and a lot of people 23 loved me and were good to me.   24 
AJ: So did people help you read stuff and figure stuff out? 25 
DE: Yeah, write letters. 26 
AJ: Write letters. 27 
DE: Write letters for me, read letters to me, help me with my bank statements.  Yeah. 28 
AJ: Well thats beautiful, people helped you out.   29 
DE: Yeah.  I associate with all kinds of people.  I had a couple of white girlfriends because we had no 30 Black people in our town when I was younger, and they were white girls but they were whores. 31 
AJ: Hookers? 32 
DE: I mean hookers.  But they moved to Minneapolis and they got married  they married Black 1 men.   2 
AJ: Oh really. 3 
DE: I used to go to their house and then men would be playing cards and they dyed my hair one 4 time.  I was real . . . the men all liked me, the women thought I was a real bitch, but the men all 5 wanted their cock sucked by me.   6 
AJ: Oh wow. 7 
DE: One of them would tell the other one how good I was and then they all wanted . . . I almost fell 8 through the floor.  I was real young, about 17 or 18 years old and I dyed my hair.  I used to have 9 it different colors and shapes and permanents and stuff like that. 10 
AJ: Sweet.   11 
DE: And I said, It looks just like niggers hair.  And as soon as I said it I could have fell right through 12 the floor because I knew it was racial to say that. 13 
AJ: Yeah, thats not a good thing to say, Dona. 14 
DE: But they all laughed and they thought it was funny.  They said, Oh, the bitch doesnt know any 15 better.  Nobody got mad. 16 
AJ: Nobody got mad  all right. 17 
DE: So I was lucky. 18 
AJ: Well dont say it anymore, OK? 19 
DE: No, no.  I know better now.  This was like 60 or 70 years ago. 20 
AJ: Oh my goodness, yeah.  Racial tensions were pretty high.  So, 60 or 70 years ago your white 21 girlfriends were marrying Black men? 22 
DE: Yeah. 23 
AJ: Wow, did they get harassed for that? 24 
DE: Well, Minneapolis was better than . . . you couldnt go to a southern state.  Minneapolis was the 25 heart of the Persian Palms and some of the strip joints in town.  But Minneapolis, a lot of the 26 women . . . a couple of them, they were hookers and they werent married to them but they 27 took men to jail and put the men in jail for white slavery.   28 
AJ: Exactly. 29 
DE: Because the men used to beat them up and take all their money. 30 
AJ: Wow. 31 
DE: Yeah, they used them.  And, of course, they liked that big Black dick and so they put up with it. 32 
AJ: So they put up with it, huh?   33 
DE: Until it went too far. 1 
AJ: Youve got to pay the cost to play.   2 
DE: Were you ever married? 3 
AJ: I have been married.  I have been married, but Id rather talk about you. 4 
DE: All right.   5 
AJ: So you used a few different terms to describe yourself.  Queen, I think you said queer  people 6 called you queer, and you identified that you said you lived as a gay man.  How do you consider 7 yourself today? 8 
DE: A woman.   9 
AJ: A woman. 10 
DE: The only thing I wish I was . . . I wish I would have been younger and had the surgery. I asked my 11 father, when Christine had it. 12 
AJ: Christine? 13 
DE: Jorgensen. 14 
AJ: Christine Jorgensen. OK.   15 
DE: I asked daddy if I could go to Denmark and have it, he said, No, you are what you are and 16 youre born that way, youre going to stay that way.  Im not going to have no surgery for you.   17 
AJ: Right. 18 
DE: So when I lived in Minneapolis and I came to the university, I wanted him to sign for me because 19 the doctors wanted to talk to him, my mother and sister went but my father said no.  He said, 20 If you go through with the surgery, he said, I dont want to ever see you again  you can piss 21 on my grave.  And I said, I will piss on your grave and Im going to outlive you. And I did, 22 because he died at 69.  He was a young man, he died from cancer.  But after that he came 23 around, my mother told him how much happier I was and he gave me a car and then I bought 24 another car  traded up and bought a nicer car.  I never made car payments.   25 
AJ: So you did have surgery? 26 
DE: Oh, Ive completely had surgery. 27 
AJ: When? 28 
DE: Ive had four tit jobs. 29 
AJ: Four boob jobs? Four tit jobs?   30 
DE: Yeah. 31 
AJ: OK. 32 
DE: I went from a 44 . . . I was one of the first people in Minneapolis at the university that had a sex 1 change. 2 
AJ: At the University of Minnesota? 3 
DE: Yeah.  No, I got everything done.   I got . . . its called the gut buster, a big scar on my stomach 4 where they took part of my bowel alignment for the deepness of my pussy.  I could take a 10-5 inch cock like nothing.   6 
AJ: Oh wow, OK. OK.  What year did you have the surgery, do you remember?   7 
DE: I was . . . I dont remember what year, but I was 28. 8 
AJ: You were 28-years old.   9 
DE: Yeah.  I wish I could have had it younger. 10 
AJ: Thats pretty young.  Did it take you a long time to recover or . . .?   11 
DE: No, in fact . . . I cooked on my fathers farm for a bunch of hired men, and I was a very good 12 cook.  But, I weighed 325 lbs.   13 
AJ: Oh, so you were a big girl.   14 
DE: Yeah.  So I had to lose . . . they wanted me down to 180 lbs., so I went on a real strict diet and I 15 got down to about 185 or 190.  I did so good and I had the surgery, because a lot of them were 16 skinnier than me but I came through it . . . big as I was, I came through it better than some of the 17 other ones. 18 
AJ: Better than a lot of the skinny ones.   19 
DE: Yeah. 20 
AJ: Wow. 21 
DE: The only thing, the first operation there wasnt much depth  only had about three or four 22 inches depth.  So I wanted it deeper, so they took part of your bowel alignment and they made 23 it deeper so you could take a big man. 24 
AJ: OK.   25 
DE: And then the first boob job . . . see the hormones didnt work very good on me for developing 26 tits.  Some of them had huge tits.  But I always had big nipples and I shrunk in so they stuck out.  27 But I had . . . the first tit job the University did and that wasnt . . . it was hard and it wasnt big 28 enough.  So as I got older I went to General Hospital and I had another one, I paid for it.  And 29 they did a sloppy job, they didnt sew it up right, and I got an infection and I had to wait six 30 months and then I had another one.  Well that one lasted about 10 or 12 years and then I went 31 to another one.  I had four sets of tits and the last ones, they . . . coat checking for years, you 32 know, and they got a little lump in it and my shoulder got worn out.  So I went to the doctor and 33 he said, Oh well, your cups are shot in your elbow. 34 
AJ: In your shoulder?   35 
DE: Yeah, my shoulder.  And they sent me to two specialists but there was no . . . the skin had all 1 decayed up there so there was nothing they could do for me.  So I cant lift my arms too high. 2 
AJ: OK. 3 
DE: And anyway . . .  4 
AJ: So did you have the breast implants taken out?   5 
DE: No, well then I had that one pair and I wanted a bigger pair and so I had them taken out.  Well 6 then he said . . . and the lump was still in there and he said, Oh, its scar tissue.  I said, Well 7 why didnt they remove the scar tissue before they put the other pair in?   8 
AJ: Right. 9 
DE: You know?  I said, I want a CAT scan of them.  So they had a CAT scan and he called me and he 10 said, Oh, youve got a lump as big as a golf ball.  So I had an emergency operation and it was a 11 tumor as big as a golf ball but it wasnt malignant.  Well that time, after Id had four sets of 12 silicon tits, I wasnt going to have any . . . I wanted to have saline water but that cost a lot of 13 money too and at that time I didnt have the money like I had when I was younger. 14 
AJ: Sure. 15 
DE: So I didnt . . . I just . . . I got a pair in here.   16 
AJ: You just decided not to use those anymore. 17 
DE: Yeah.  And I got . . . well anyway, its a brassiere and theres a silicone bag.   18 
AJ: Right, so it sits right in your bra.   19 
DE: Yeah, it sits right in my bra  and they were $200 apiece. 20 
AJ: Oh boy  thats expensive.   21 
DE: But they feel real when you touch them.  I wear them when I go out and people think theyre 22 real.   23 
AJ: Yeah.  So you said you were a coat check.  Where did you do that at? 24 
DE: The 90s.   25 
AJ: The Gay 90s. 26 
DE: For 21 or 22 years.   27 
AJ: Is that right? 28 
DE: When I retired they had a big party for me upstairs in the lounge. 29 
AJ: Yeah, you were a fixture there.  I used to go to the 90s and I remember seeing you there and 30 being very sweet.  What is your memories of working there for 21 years? 31 
DE: I think a lot of people come and go and that one sex change, a picture up there with . . . no, I 1 havent got a picture up there.  She had the change, she was young and she had an old man that 2 was gay but he paid for her surgery, but she went with a young guy and he gave her AIDS.  She 3 shot him and then she put the gun in her mouth and blew her . . . shot herself.  4 
AJ: Oh no. 5 
DE: At the Gay 90s.  Cant you remember that? 6 
AJ: Very, very, very blurry.  I dont really remember that incident.   7 
DE: I have a good memory. 8 
AJ: Do you know who that was?  You dont remember her name?   9 
DE: Ill know it when I hear it but I cant think of it now.  I have a picture of her somewhere in my 10 album.  But anyway she killed herself, she was young and real pretty.  She could pass as a girl 11 but the only thing, she didnt have enough confidence in herself and she liked . . . well, a good 12 looking gay man but he gave her AIDS and then she shot him and her.  Shot herself.  And I know 13 three or four them that had sex changes and went with gay men and they loved them and 14 married them and got AIDS and died, and some of them commit suicide too.  A lot of the gay 15 people, sex changes kill themselves. 16 
AJ: That is true.  Why do you think that is the case?  Because young people are still committing 17 suicide today even . . . and they dont have AIDS.  Why do you think people struggle with that, 18 Dona? 19 
DE: Well, I struggle with it.  Sometimes I have dreams  I dream a lot at night.  And sometimes I 20 dream as a real woman and sometimes I still dream about myself being a man.   21 
AJ: Yeah. 22 
DE: But I was never a man, I was never attracted to gay people because I was never very filled up.  I 23 had a small peter like this finger.  So when I went in drag I could put a Band-Aid over it and 24 nobody knew. 25 
AJ: Nobody knew anything.   26 
DE: And, I couldnt get a hard-on from a woman no matter what you did to me, but I could look at a 27 man with a nice basket and that little dick would stand right up.   28 
AJ: Really?  So you got aroused by men?   29 
DE: Yeah.   30 
AJ: You were very sexually interested in men. 31 
DE: Yeah. 32 
AJ: But not women  ever.   33 
DE: No, never.   34 
AJ: So you think people have a confusion about that as to why they commit suicide? 1 
DE: Well, the idea is everybody . . . if theyve got brothers and sisters that want to live a normal life, I 2 thought after I got the change Ill get married and live a life like my sister  have a husband and 3 all that.  Well a man may love you and youre supposed to them you had a change because if 4 you dont tell him and then he finds out, it could blow his mind and kill you and get free  5 because that has happened.  But men, just like a man that loves a Black girl but a lot of men 6 wont marry them.   7 
AJ: They wont marry a Black girl, right.   8 
DE: If youre Jewish, a Jewish man must marry . . . he could have a gentile woman as a mistress but if 9 gets married hes got to marry a Jewish girl.   10 
AJ: Right. 11 
DE: Well thats the same way, you love a sex change and maybe you love her and you want her but 12 youre afraid that people will find out that youre married to someone who once was a man, 13 that they think was a man  a penis doesnt make a man a man.   14 
AJ: No, it doesnt. 15 
DE: And then to think they once had a penis like you did and married a man, who was once a man, 16 and now a woman.  Well, a lot of people dont understand that and thats too far-fetched.  They 17 think that youre born the way you are  if youre born cripple or born blind or deaf, thats the 18 way God wanted you and you should stay that way.   19 
AJ: Well, we know thats not true, right?   20 
DE: And a lot of people, parents accept gay people  gay people, not people who had surgery, 21 theres gay people their parents found out they were gay, they disowned you, disinherited you  22 youre dead in their eyes.   23 
AJ: Just gone.   24 
DE: Gone.  And thats the same way with a sex change.  Theyll accept you maybe as a homosexual 25 but as far as having surgery to be a woman? Oh no, youre a freak.  God doesnt want you to be . 26 . . if he wanted you to be a woman, he would have made you a woman. 27 
AJ: But you went and had the surgery  you did it. 28 
DE: I had the spunk and did it.  I didnt care what anybody said or did and I did all odds against all 29 odds. 30 
AJ: What did your mother say? 31 
DE: My mother was for me, my real sister was for me.  They came and talked to Dr. Hastings at the 32 University of Minnesota. 33 
AJ: Don Hastings? 34 
DE: Yes. 35 
AJ: Oh wow.  So he did your surgery? 1 
DE: Yeah.  He was a very . . . well he didnt do the surgery himself, but he was the head psychiatrist.  2 He was the one that analyzed you and . . .  3 
AJ: Right.  Do you remember who did the surgery? 4 
DE: Not anymore. Sophie knows, my girlfriend knows.  Shes more up to it than I am, shes better 5 educated.  But for no education, and a lot of them had college educations and were real smart 6 and had careers, and they all destroyed themselves.  And as dumb as I was in some ways . . .  7 
AJ: Youre still here. 8 
DE: Im still here.  And Sophie was born to a farm family in North Dakota and I was born in 9 Minnesota, but our parents had money  they were big farmers.  And we both survived real 10 good  took it all in stride and never become alcoholics, never become dope addicts, and we 11 didnt marry gay men and get AIDS and were both . . . shes about nine months younger than I 12 am.  Her birthday is the day after New Years. 13 
AJ: Where does Sophie live? 14 
DE: At the Towers.   15 
AJ: Oh.  Do you have her phone number?  I need to get a hold of Sophie. 16 
DE: Yeah.   17 
AJ: Ill talk to her too.  Do you think she would be interested?   18 
DE: I dont think so.  Shes kind of . . .  19 
AJ: You dont think so? 20 
DE: Its in the past, a lot of the people she associates with dont know nothing about it. 21 
AJ: They dont know and she just moved on with her life. 22 
DE: Shes got a beautiful apartment and nice clothes.  You look at her, shes got big tits from silicone 23 and you look at her and you just think shes a natural woman.  Youd never know. 24 
AJ: Do you guys ever get together and go out?   25 
DE: Oh yeah, when I had my car and she had hers, we got together a lot.   26 
AJ: Do you go out much now? 27 
DE: Not too much because I dont have the money and I just . . . I cant drink much anymore  just 28 one or two drinks is all I can have.  But I love good food.  My brother and different people take 29 me out.   30 
AJ: Good.  31 
DE: I still enjoy going out and having a good meal and all that. 32 
AJ: So, tell me this Dona.  You had the surgery, youve lived a good life, you worked at the Gay 90s 1 for a long time.  Would you ever change anything?  Do you think . . .? 2 
DE: The only thing I would have change . . . two things I would have did different.  I would have 3 saved my . . . when I made my big money instead of going on trips and buying furs and jewelry 4 and all that, I was very extravagant, I would have saved more money and I would have had 5 surgery younger.  The younger you are . . . if youre in your teens and youre not fully developed 6 and you dont have hair on your face . . .  7 
AJ: Hair and all that stuff.   8 
DE: I just had fuzz on my face and my father said, Shave.  I spent thousands having my electrolysis, 9 having my beard removed.  But I know now before youre fully developed . . .  10 
AJ: Your body is not . . . it takes better to the hormones the younger you are. 11 
DE: Yeah.  And I couldnt take . . . a lot of them took hormones before surgery, I couldnt take it until 12 after because I had a very small penis, as I told you, and some of them had a big penis and they 13 took the hormones, but it shrunk your penis up so I didnt have much to work with anyhow  14 thats why. 15 
AJ: Oh, so they wanted to wait.   16 
DE: I waited  but I was feminine enough . . . well, when my dad took me to Rochester years ago 17 because I was sick a lot and because I couldnt read or write, he took me to Rochester.  I went all 18 through the clinic and it cost him thousands and thousands of dollars.  All they said was that I 19 didnt develop right and I was . . . my characteristics were all women instead of a man.   20 
AJ: Really? 21 
DE: My characteristics  my voice and my actions and all that.  You are what you are, you know. 22 
AJ: Yeah, you couldnt change it. 23 
DE: Couldnt change it  my voice and my characteristics and my way of thinking was female.   24 
AJ: So you were born . . . when was the first time you ever saw another transgender person or 25 another transsexual person?   26 
DE: Well, Ive seen . . . oh years ago.  I seen . . . like a man in drag, they were real ugly and then Ive 27 seen some that were so beautiful that youd never thought they were ever a man.  I think its 28 the way your body is structured and what kind of an income you have or what kind of a 29 background you have.   30 
AJ: That all plays into it. 31 
DE: Yeah, if youre educated or associate with educated people.  I watch a lot of TV and news and a 32 lot of the people who knew me never knew I couldnt read or write  not everybody knew.  I 33 only told . . . 34 
AJ: Right, certain people.   35 
DE: Certain people.   1 
AJ: So youre smart, you catch on really easily.  But do you ever remember that first person that you 2 met?  You said you wanted to have surgery like Christine Jorgensen.  You told your dad about 3 that. 4 
DE: Well, there was a few of us, like Sophie and them, there was about four or five of us and we 5 were all good friends and we associated together.  Wed go out drinking  you know, go out and 6 party together and get together for meals and stuff and we all discussed it, you know.  It was a 7 dream  because it cost a lot of money and most of us didnt have that kind of money and even 8 if our parents had it, they werent going to . . . theyd pay to make you normal but they wouldnt 9 pay to make you . . .  10 
AJ: To make you what you wanted to be.   11 
DE: No, they wouldnt. 12 
AJ: How much did it cost?   13 
DE: I dont know.  The University said to me that with my four tit jobs and my change and my gut 14 buster where they took the alignment . . . and I had surgery on my toes and I was sick a lot and 15 had a lot of different surgeries, I probably in my lifetime over the years  from the time I was 16 born until now, I probably had $1 million dollars spent on me. 17 
AJ: $1 million? 18 
DE: Yeah. 19 
AJ: Wow, thats a lot of money.   20 
DE: Because I had the gut buster, stitches.  I had a knee operation  broke my knee, I have a steel 21 peg in my one knee.  And I have a pacemaker, two of them.  I had a valve.  I broke both hips.  I 22 broke one arm three times and one arm two times. 23 
AJ: How did you get injured like that?   24 
DE: Well, I broke the knee on the farm because . . . it was a wooden ladder and I broke that because 25 I was too heavy.  And then I was living by myself and I fell and tore my head open and I had 14 26 stitches in my head.  I broke my nose a couple of times and I got a scar here and I got a little scar 27 here from when I broke my nose.  My nose has been broken three times.  I was supposed to 28 have surgery but Im scared of surgery.  I dont want to have surgery I didnt ask for and pay and 29 all that.  And also every operation has a certain amount of risk to it, you know.   30 
AJ: Every one of them.   31 
DE: So I didnt want any one I didnt have to have.  But if I had to have one, like the staple bypass.  I 32 wanted to get skinnier and some of the questions they asked you . . . when I was at the 33 university they said one of the board of directors they ask you different questions and one of 34 the questions was, If there was a pill you could take to make you a normal woman or a man, 35 would you take the pill?  I said, Well, for one thing there isnt such a pill. 36 
AJ: OK. 1 
DE: And they said, Well what if you had only 80% chance you would die and only a 20% chance you 2 would like?  I said I would take it.   3 
AJ: Wow, youd take the 20% chance? 4 
DE: Yeah.   5 
AJ: Well you lived honey, you made it. 6 
DE: Yeah, some of them backed out of it because it was too dangerous and go through all that pain 7 and expense.   8 
AJ: When you guys were going . . . when you went to the university, did they have groups or other 9 people who were transgender? 10 
DE: Yeah.   11 
AJ: Or transsexual too? 12 
DE: Yeah. 13 
AJ: So there were quite a number of people in the programs.   14 
DE: There was about 10 of us.   15 
AJ: About 10.  Do you remember their names?   16 
DE: Yeah, half of them I would say . . . I know all the names but over half of them are dead.   17 
AJ: Oh really. 18 
DE: Theyve either died from AIDS . . .  19 
AJ: Who? 20 
DE: AIDS, died from AIDS. 21 
AJ: Alvita you said? 22 
DE: No. 23 
AJ: Oh, OK. 24 
DE: AIDS, but I know Black Velvet.  She was a Black girl in town  danced.  She died from AIDS 25 because she married a gay guy whod been in prison. 26 
AJ: Right. 27 
DE: She got AIDS from him.  And drank themselves  either they were alcoholics before and they still 28 stayed alcoholics. 29 
AJ: Right. 30 
DE: My father was an alcoholic and I just . . . I drank more than I should but I never craved it, I never 1 drank liquor in the morning when I got up. 2 
AJ: Right, right. 3 
DE: I never took drugs and . . . I didnt live . . . I got proper rest and ate proper, I didnt live so 4 reckless where I took dope for three or four days and stayed awake all night and all day.  I mean 5 you . . . youve got to take care of your body.  If you dont take care of your body it destroys you. 6 
AJ: Its going to go away.   7 
DE: Yeah. 8 
AJ: Youve got to take care of it.  So, out of the 10 people from your group how many would you say 9 are still alive?   10 
DE: Sophie and I . . . I think theres maybe three or four of us.   11 
AJ: Oh, OK.  Have you ever seen the show I am Cait about Caitlyn Jenner?   12 
DE: Yeah, I seen it on TV.  But you know something?  I think shes a liar and shes going to commit 13 suicide.  She was famous all her life . . .  14 
AJ: Right, shes famous.   15 
DE: Famous all her life and now shes famous because shes got a lot of money.  She can have a face 16 life, she can have a boob job. 17 
AJ: Right.   18 
DE: She can have a hip put in or a . . . what is she going to do for an encore?  And then she claimed 19 that she never had sex with a man when she was a man  well thats a God damn lie.  Any sex 20 change that I know, theyve all had a lot of peter in their days and she denies it.  She said she 21 liked women and had children and all that.  Well shes a liar and shes a phony.   22 
AJ: Wow. 23 
DE: Shes doing it for publicity.  But what is she going to do for an encore after shes gorgeous and 24 had so many operations, she cant have anymore and people just use her for her money and for 25 her fame.  What is she going to do for an encore?   26 
AJ: Wow. 27 
DE: I think she loves herself and shes a selfish person.   28 
AJ: Boy, OK.  But she has brought a lot of visibility to the transgender community, transgender 29 people.  I bet even in your time . . . 30 
DE: Well most people Ive talked to, weve been to parties where theres been 20 or 25 of us, they 31 all think shes a phony.   32 
AJ: No, I cant say that I disagree with you.   33 
DE: Huh? 1 
AJ: I cant say that I disagree with you. I think youve got some good points there. 2 
DE: If I had money like she has I could have a facelift, I could have a hip taken out . . . not a hip but a 3 rib, like some of them have. 4 
AJ: Right, get the ribs taken out.   5 
DE: Some of them did and some of them had their toes shortened and had their ears designed 6 different.   7 
AJ: Lots of surgery, huh? 8 
DE: Lots of surgery.  One I knew was a dancer, she was Cuban . . . or some foreign country.  She was 9 small boned, she said she had $1 million worth of surgery.   10 
AJ: Oh, wow. 11 
DE: She had everything she could think of. 12 
AJ: Changed, huh? 13 
DE: Yeah.  And all her clothes  she buys . . . shes got a big bust, she has to buy a big dress and then 14 take them in on the hips and thigh and then have them lowered so she can show those big tits 15 off.  She looks like a sex . . . men do see her.  She said she . . . when she worked at the 90s, she 16 said, I bought a man a motorcycle, he robbed me.  But she said, I dont care because men like 17 my pussy.  My pussy works real good.  I make lots of money  lots of money.  She said, They 18 steal from me, I buy them a motorcycle, what makes any difference, I got lots of money.   19 
AJ: Wow.  20 
DE: Well she did have a lot of money.  Men thought she was so beautiful, it was men that knew she 21 was a sex change.  I couldnt believe it.  They gave her $1,000 for one sex affair. 22 
AJ: For one night, huh? 23 
DE: For one night  or not even one night. 24 
AJ: Wow, $1,000.   25 
DE: An hour or two.   26 
AJ: Wow.  I was just going to say, youve seen so many people come through the 90s over the 27 years.  From the time that you started and until you retired, do you think there were more 28 transgender people coming into the 90s then there were . . .? 29 
DE: Yes, yes there were more.  And a lot of them were businessmen from Chicago or New York or 30 something you came to town.  There was even a doctor at the university, they came in because 31 they were in drag  in dress.  They drove their cars because they had their license . . . they were 32 sex change, male, but it was them in drag going to a party or going out for the evening, going to 33 a gay bar.  And they wore nice clothes and big cars  Lincoln or big Cadillac, lots of money.  A lot 34 of them came from Chicago and theyd come in and theyd ask me to join them because . . . Id 1 sit with them and have dinner with them and drink with them and they would . . . they had kids 2 in colleges and lived normal lives.  They were executives of big companies and had lots of 3 money. 4 
AJ: Yeah.  So when I first came in you said you used to work the streets or work the hotel. 5 
DE: Oh yeah.   6 
AJ: But you said you were a hooker.  7 
DE: Yeah. 8 
AJ: What was that like?   9 
DE: Well, that was a little dangerous at times.  I wouldnt do it now because theres too much drugs 10 out there now.   11 
AJ: Oh my goodness, yes. 12 
DE: But years ago I could walk from the Gay 90s down to the saloon . . . 13 
AJ: On Hennepin Avenue? 14 
DE: Yeah.  And hop in a car and go over to the warehouse district, you could give a guy a blow job 15 and hop two or three cars and I could have $100 or $150 by the time I got to the other bar.   16 
AJ: Oh, wow.   17 
DE: I had a few close calls, but most men . . . because my characteristics, and they knew . . . I was 18 always honest with them.  I never lied to them.  I told them, You cant fuck me because Im a 19 sex change.  Oh they didnt care, they still wanted to try me out.  They loved my blow jobs.  I 20 had guys that wouldnt fuck me anymore, they just strictly wanted a blow job  suck their balls, 21 they loved it.   22 
AJ: You had a job, you were working at the 90s, right?   23 
DE: Yeah. 24 
AJ: Do you think that a lot of . . . because I know a lot of transgender women, in particular, do sex 25 work because they cant find a job. 26 
DE: Well, I probably . . . the reason I found a job . . . I was Sophies . . . I mean Renee was Dick Golds 27 mistress and I used to clean houses . . . 28 
AJ: Was who? Dick . . .? 29 
DE: Golds mistress.  He was a Jewish man, married to a Jewish woman, but he had Renee  she had 30 big tits, but she was a Gentile and she went with him, she was his mistress.   31 
AJ: Right.  But she was not a transsexual? 32 
DE: No, she was a real woman, but had just been a whore all her life  stripper and all that. I used to 1 clean house for her and I cleaned house  but I didnt make much money cleaning houses.  Years 2 ago when I was younger, $20 a day I made cleaning . . . washing floors and cleaning toilets. 3 
AJ: It was hard work. 4 
DE: Hard work. 5 
AJ: And little money. 6 
DE: Little money.  And when I got the job at the 90s  do you know at the 90s on a Saturday night 7 with my tips and I got a percentage of what I took in, I could make $1,000 in one night.   8 
AJ: Wow. 9 
DE: Thats why I have all the money.  And when I went out with men  and I didnt charge . . . I 10 wasnt beautiful.  I was nice looking and clean and presentable.  I mean I got $50 from a lot of 11 them, I was no $100 trick.  Or $25. 12 
AJ: So it was helping you to survive, helping you to live and do what you needed to do.  13 
DE: I was never a big money girl.   14 
AJ: Yeah. 15 
DE: But I kept myself going.   16 
AJ: Tell me about some of your relationships.  Have you ever been in love? 17 
DE: Oh yeah, when I was younger.  I was only in love once as a woman.  But as a boy, whatever I 18 was, I loved a couple of times and they loved me too  they wanted me to go away with them 19 but I wasnt educated, like I said, and they were from good families.  They would hate me.  The 20 only thing we had in common was . . . 21 
AJ: Good sex. 22 
DE:  . . . sex and you cant survive on sex alone. So I was strong enough, I wanted them to go their 23 ways and I went my way.   24 
AJ: Yeah. 25 
DE: I always had good common sense. 26 
AJ: Thats very smart.  So you were in love once as a woman.  That relationship didnt last very long? 27 
DE: No because he drank too much.  He wanted to marry me but my father was an alcoholic and I 28 said the only way I could marry a man he would have to quit drinking.  There were two things I 29 wouldnt . . . I dont need a man to support me all the way.  30 
AJ: Right. 31 
DE: Im willing to work and be . . .  32 
AJ: You were able to support yourself. 33 
DE: Be on a 50/50 basis.  But Im not marrying an alcoholic, Im not marrying a dope addict, and Im 1 not going to marry a man that goes with a different woman every night. 2 
AJ: Right. 3 
DE: If you go with a different woman every night youll catch some horrible disease and die.  Ive 4 never had any disease  the only thing Ive ever had in my life was crabs when I was younger.  5 Twice  you can get them from bathrooms. 6 
AJ: Right. 7 
DE: But I never had any . . . my mother was always worried Id catch a disease so the doctor was a 8 good friend of the family and mother asked him what I could do so I wouldnt get a disease.  So 9 he asked what I did and mother said well mostly I suck a dick instead of getting it in the rectum 10 because he said getting it in the rectum is more dangerous because you have a germ killer in 11 your mouth that kills germs. 12 
AJ: Right. 13 
DE: And if you have sex in the rectum you can bleed or get some disease because no air gets in 14 there, you know.  15 
AJ: Yeah, and skin is easy to get cut or scratched or something. 16 
DE: Yeah, scratched or something.  And he said if I had sex up the ass that I should take vinegar 17 douches.  So when I came home that night for dinner, guess what was on the table?  A gallon of 18 vinegar.  My mother said, If youre going to have sex, you take a vinegar douche.  I had a 19 douche bag and everything.  You take a vinegar douche.  I got fucked a lot but mostly sucked 20 dick.  It was quicker and you could be anywhere and do that. 21 
AJ: Right, you dont need a whole apartment and all of that stuff. 22 
DE: Yeah.  And its faster too because they cum real fast. I could suck 10 boys off in a matter of half 23 an hour and make money like that. 24 
AJ: They cum like that  oh, youre funny, Dona.  Have you . . . so, since youve been out and living 25 your life as a woman, how is it . . . do the doctors respect you?  Do the police respect you?  How 26 is it when you go to the clinic?  Like today, you had an appointment at the doctors today. 27 
DE: I have a woman doctor.  I find that more people, even a lot of doctors, have put the make on me 28 and wanted to have sex with me, they knew I was a sex change.   29 
AJ: Really? 30 
DE: And one guy, he didnt know I was a sex change and he was a doctor, he ate my pussy. 31 
AJ: Oh my goodness.   32 
DE: So he was telling me about some of my friends  one had an Adams apple, different things gave 33 them away but he said, I can tell a real woman . . . a woman who is a woman.   34 
AJ: Right. 35 
DE: And so I showed him some papers I had from the university and he said, God damn it, I cant 1 believe it.  He says, You look like a woman, you act like a woman, and your pussy tastes like a 2 real pussy. 3 
AJ: Oh wow, OK. 4 
DE: He said, I didnt know doctors could make it that real. 5 
AJ: That real, huh?  So no problems with police? 6 
DE: Not with police, no.  I had problems with some family members calling up, Dont go with my 7 son, youre just a tramp, youre a sex change.  We dont want my son associating with your 8 kind.   9 
AJ: Oh, OK. 10 
DE: Real rude. 11 
AJ: Rude, yeah. 12 
DE: And thats the same way with . . . Black men love you no matter if youre a whore, youre a 13 whore no matter what color you are  because were women, just Black women they just cant 14 stand you because the men all want you and they hate you because theyre jealous of you.   15 
AJ: Yeah, well if youre taking their men, I can see people getting jealous about that.  So, Im glad 16 that you didnt have problems with the police.  What have been some of the challenges in your 17 life since you have come out as being a transgender person? 18 
DE: Well, I have always protected myself.  Ive never been kicked out of an apartment my whole life.   19 
AJ: OK. 20 
DE: You know, some have lost their apartments before they even had the change because they 21 party too much.  I never got kicked out of a place, I always had jobs  some kind of a job, and I 22 got money from my parents because the jobs I had never paid very much.  Probably the best 23 paying job I ever had was the coat check. 24 
AJ: At the 90s, yeah. 25 
DE: Yeah.   26 
AJ: Well, so youve been pretty lucky.   27 
DE: Because I managed to . . . at the 90s, living and all that.  I managed to put $100,000 away for 28 investments. 29 
AJ: Is that right?   30 
DE: I made good money there, plus all the clothes and furs and jewels I bought.   31 
AJ: And I suspect they didnt make you pay for the food and . . . 32 
DE: Oh yeah, I had to pay the cost  not much though.  But I worked . . . all my tips I kept and I 1 worked . . . check coats for $2 and every $2 I look in they got half of the $2 and the dollar I got 2 plus the tips. 3 
AJ: Oh.   4 
DE: So I made more money than the house did and I got good money in tips.  Some of those drug 5 addicts and . . . 6 
AJ: Yeah, theyd throw you $20, $50. 7 
DE: Oh honey.  One guy used to come in and check his coat, I never gave him a number  I put it in a 8 certain place because he had these fur coats- hed throw me money, sometimes it would be $80 9 or $100 all wrapped up in $20 bills.  10 
AJ: Oh wow.  So all kinds of people went to the 90s, right?  Not just gay people. 11 
DE: Oh yeah. There was a bunch of people that came in, a couple of gay guys came in with their 12 sisters and brothers and they all had fur coats.  I locked them . . . I put them in Dicks office, that 13 was before I had the big coat room.  And when he left, it was eight coats and when I gave him 14 the coats back, he gave me a $500 bill.   15 
AJ: Wow. 16 
DE: I said, I dont have change for this.  He said, No, thats yours honey. 17 
AJ: Wow, nice.  Whats Dicks name?   18 
DE: Dick Gold. 19 
AJ: G-o-l-d  Gold?   20 
DE: Yeah.  Jewish.  21 
AJ: Like gold . . . like a gold watch? 22 
DE: Yeah.   23 
AJ: OK.  All right.  Have you been back to the 90s at all?   24 
DE: Oh yeah.  I havent been there for a couple of years now, but Ive been back a lot of times  go 25 with friends down there for dinner.  But now they only have dinner on weekends.  26 
AJ: Right, not Monday-Friday anymore? 27 
DE: No. 28 
AJ: Do they have coat check there still? 29 
DE: They do, but I dont think anybody works it.   30 
AJ: Yeah.  That was a . . . coat check was kind of an era. 31 
DE: Yeah, and also, I had a personality and they all trusted me.  I told any of my help, If you ever 1 take anything out of coat pocket and I find out about it, Ill break your God damn arm.   2 
AJ: OK. 3 
DE: But some of them would leave pills or theyd leave their wallets in their coat and theyd come 4 back at night and want to get their coat just for a minute just to get some drugs out and Id 5 leave them do it and theyd give me extra money.  I made good money there.   6 
AJ: Yeah, I can imagine. 7 
DE: Good money.   8 
AJ: Did you ever know any of the girls that performed upstairs?  The 90s had one of the best drag 9 shows in the whole Upper Midwest? 10 
DE: Oh yeah, I knew . . . 11 
AJ: Cee Cee  do you know Cee Cee Russell? 12 
DE: Yeah.   13 
AJ: And . . .  14 
DE: Did you know Linda Russell?  She danced at the 90s as a stripper and then she went over to the 15 Brass Rail and she was a bartender over there for a long time. She died from AIDS, she was 16 married to two different gay guys and died from AIDS.  She was nice. 17 
AJ: I remember Nina DeAngelo and . . . yeah.  Those were some good years. 18 
DE: And, the one Black girl that used to dance.  She was big boned and tall like you.  She danced 19 upstairs at the drag show and she had a big dick on her.  She made her money.  Shed go to the 20 bath house and she had big tits, she had the boob job, but some of those old wealthy queens  21 shed fuck them and theyd give her a lot of money.   22 
AJ: Oh wow. 23 
DE: She died from AIDS too.  24 
AJ: Oh no.  Yeah, there used to be a bath house right on 4th and 1st Avenue, I think. 25 
DE: Yeah, thats where she made a lot of her money.  I never went there.   26 
AJ: That wasnt your scene. 27 
DE: That wasnt my scene.   28 
AJ: Well, Dona, this is quite something special.  Is there anything that I havent asked you that you 29 want to talk about?   30 
DE: No.  I never got beat up.  I got slapped a couple times and it scared the shit out of me, but I 31 never got beat up real bad.  I was never beat up and put in the hospital like some of them were.   32 
AJ: Because you were transgender or because you were transsexual.   33 
DE: I always told them . . .  1 
AJ: How would you tell them?  What would you say?   2 
DE: Im not what you think I am.  And theyd say, Youre a drag queen?  And I said, No, Im a 3 transsexual.  Im going to have surgery.  And Id show them some papers I had from the 4 university saying I was going through surgery.  The nicest compliment I ever got from a man, he 5 was a truck driver from Fargo, North Dakota, and he drove to Chicago and hed come through 6 town  I met him at the bar and I went out with him a long time and I always told him I had 7 female trouble. 8 
AJ: Right, so you couldnt have sex  because you had female trouble, right? 9 
DE: And so Id always just French him and he loved it.  He treated me real good.  So one time he 10 says, Oh Dona, Im horny, and I said, Well, Ive got female trouble.  And he said, Well cant I 11 fuck you in the ass?  And I really wanted to because I wanted to please him.   12 
AJ: You were horny too. 13 
DE: I said, Well, Im going to tell you something, Im a boy  Ive got a little penis, but Im having 14 surgery.   15 
AJ: Right. 16 
DE: So I put a towel over my little peter and he fucked me in the ass, I gave it to him real good.   17 
AJ: Right. 18 
DE: And you know what he said to me afterwards?  He said, Dona, without surgery, youre 100% 19 woman.  He said, That little dick you got doesnt mean nothing  your actions, your 20 characteristics  youre 100% woman.  So I thought that was the nicest compliment. 21 
AJ: That was very sweet.  Did you guys see each for . . . did he still see you after that?  22 
DE: Oh yeah, until he got transferred to California. 23 
AJ: Well, I can see . . . I mean, Im sitting here with you now and I would never think you were ever a 24 trans. 25 
DE: Yeah, I used to wear eyelashes and stuff.  Theres pictures of me up there and Ive got some 26 pictures in a scrapbook.  When I was all dressed up, if I had a gown on and jewelry . .  I mean, I 27 was dressed from top to bottom.   28 
AJ: Can we see one of your pictures?  Can we put it on the camera? 29 
DE: Yeah, let me . . . one of my better ones . . . you can take one of those down.  I got some better 30 ones but theyre over at my friends house.   31 
AJ: All right.  Why dont you . . . I just want to make sure I dont drop this.  But this is you, right?   32 
DE: Yes. 33 
AJ: Thats beautiful.  Here, why dont you hold it?  Hold it up so we can see it on the camera.  Come 1 on closer . . . youve got to come a little closer.   2 
DE: I always wore a gown and jewelry and everythings a match. 3 
AJ: Oh my God, thats beautiful.  So hold it down a little bit because its . . . right there.  Its picking 4 up the reflection from the window.  Very pretty. 5 
DE: Ill have to get my pictures home and then show you . . . I got some pictures in scrap books that 6 really . . . I look like . . . 7 
AJ: A movie star. 8 
DE: A movie star.   9 
AJ: Yeah.  Well, Dona  thank you so much for this enlightening conversation.  Its a joy and a 10 pleasure.  Youre one of the pioneers. 11 
DE: Yeah. 12 
AJ: Truly one of the pioneers.  How does it feel? 13 
DE: Well, I dont know.  I wish I could have found somebody and got married and . . . I had money 14 when I was younger and now Im old and I dont have any money anymore, my family is all gone, 15 and its kind of hard to accept it.   16 
AJ: Yeah, its hard. 17 
DE: I always say if I was to die and there was a hereafter that I wouldnt care if I came back . . . I 18 wouldnt want to come back what I was, Id want to be either a woman or a man but be real 19 smart so I could go to college and get a good education so I could make money because I was 20 always ambitious  and make money and become rich.  Id have money to take care of myself. 21 
AJ: Well, I think you did pretty good for yourself, Dona. 22 
DE: Well for what I had to work with, I did real well. 23 
AJ: Well thank you so much for this opportunity. 24 
DE: And when you call me Ill try to get my pictures and Ill go through my tapes and get my tapes. 25 
AJ: Yeah, weve got to get the tapes so make sure . . . you have Patty give me a call. 26 
DE: Yeah. 27 
AJ: And well get those tapes. 28 
DE: Do you want to put this back? 29 
AJ: I will put it back.  Thank you so much.   30 
DE: Youre welcome. 31 
AJ: All right.   32 

