   
Thalia Forton Narrator   Andrea Jenkins Interviewer 
    
The Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies University of Minnesota 
February 12, 2016 
 
 
   

 
  
The Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story, while providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source material about the transgender community.  The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for current and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public. 
The Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300 individuals over the next three years.  Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and experiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality.  This project will be led by Andrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist.  Andrea brings years of experience working in government, non-profits and LGBT organizations.  If you are interested in being involved in this exciting project, please contact Andrea. 
Andrea Jenkins jenki120@umn.edu (612) 625-4379 
   
 
Andrea Jenkins -AJ 1 
Thalia Forton  -TF 2 
 3 
 4 
AJ: So, hello.   5 
TF: Hi. 6 
AJ: My name is Andrea Jenkins and I am the oral historian for the Transgender Oral History Project 7 at the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  Today is February 12, 2016, and I am 8 sitting in Comstock Hall on the University of Minnesota campus with Thalia . . .  9 
TF: Thalia. 10 
AJ: Forton.   11 
TF: Forton. 12 
AJ: Forton.  So, I am going to ask you Thalia to introduce yourself.  Say your name the correct way, 13 unlike the way I said it. 14 
TF: Definitely. 15 
AJ: And then just spell it for our transcriptionist too. 16 
TF: Got it. 17 
AJ: She would appreciate that.  And then tell me your gender identity currently, your gender 18 assigned at birth, and then what pronouns do you prefer? 19 
TF: OK.  My name is Thalia Forton.  I spell it T-h-a-l-i-a.  I am a trans woman, or woman.  I was born 20 given the gender identity as man, cis man.  I use she/her/hers pronouns.   21 
AJ: OK, great.  Thank you.  So, wow, youre a college student here at the University of Minnesota.  22 Whats that like? 23 
TF: Its stressful, its very stressful. 24 
AJ: Yeah, what makes it so stressful? 25 
TF: Well, first off just the assignments.  I have a lot of big assignments that are coming up around 26 the same time, so thats already stressful just being a student.  Go to classes, wake up early, 27 dont get a lot of sleep and then trying to balance that with your social life of trying to meet 28 people  especially because Im new here so Im trying to meet people anywhere I can, which 29 takes up a lot of time too because you have to go to the places.  So thats stressful, because Im 30 here a lot alone, which is . . .  31 
AJ: When you say youre new here, what do you mean by that? 32 
TF: This is my first semester here at the University of Minnesota. 33 
AJ: OK.   1 
TF: And then adding that to my stress of my mental state that Im in right now is not the most 2 stable, so if you put that together it kind of just adds a lot more stress. 3 
AJ: Whats going on with your mental state? 4 
TF: I know Im diagnosed with depression and I cant be on medication for it so I just kind of have to 5 deal with it right now and it has not been friendly, definitely not the easiest thing in the world to 6 handle.  I have social anxiety so my anxiety mixed with depression mixed with stress just really 7 takes it out of me.  Im always tired . . . if its not one thing its another. 8 
AJ: Why arent you able to take medication for it? 9 
TF: I took medication, I probably should try it again, but I took it a while ago.  I was on depression 10 medication and it didnt last long because my liver started acting up and they got really scared 11 and actually took me off of it to see if it went back.  It never went back, it stayed at the state it 12 was at which wasnt the best, so then they told me they didnt really want to put me back on it.  13 I started at the age of 15, 16. 14 
AJ: Oh boy. OK.  So are you dealing with . . . I dont know, exercise or other kinds of ways to manage 15 your stress? 16 
TF: Ive been trying to exercise.  The gym is really far and thats already a workout, so its already 17 kind of hard for me to get there plus . . . I dont know if this is too personal, but tucking is really a 18 pain in the ass for me. 19 
AJ: Talking? 20 
TF: Tucking, like having to tuck yourself.   21 
AJ: Oh yes. 22 
TF: And so going to work out, I refuse to wear sweats.  I want to wear my tight workout pants  23 theyre comfy, they work, and its really hard because I have to tuck right and sometimes its 24 really painful.  So like I use tape to tuck but sometimes it comes undone while youre working 25 out and then youre like, I have to go home, because youre really insecure because you dont 26 want anybody seeing anything.  So thats already a struggle and then going to the gym and 27 actually working out is a struggle, so thats two really big things for me that keeps me from the 28 gym right at this moment.  Other things that I do to balance . . . Im really bad at it but I use men 29 to distract myself from a lot of my issues, from my depression.  If I had friends Id probably use 30 them but I dont have friends here at this moment so its not as easy, so I just use men from the 31 internet or people I use here that are interested in me to kind of keep me distracted  like 32 flirting and sexual activities.   33 
AJ: Does that help? 34 
TF: It doesnt. 35 
AJ: It doesnt. 36 
TF: It helps at that moment, like when youre distracted, but once its over you just feel bad and 1 then youre back to feeling even worse because youre just trying to ignore something thats, no 2 matter what, still going to be there.  And then I also game, which is something that helps 3 distract me a little bit now and then. 4 
AJ: OK, so video games. 5 
TF: Yes, video games. 6 
AJ: You used this term tucking.  7 
TF: Yes. 8 
AJ: And I know what it means, but someone who is watching this video 20 years from now may not 9 quite know what tucking is.  Do you mind describing what that is? 10 
TF: OK, no I dont mind.  I dont know how else to describe it because how I describe my genitalia, I 11 call . . .  12 
AJ: You use the words you use for your genitalia.   13 
TF: OK, so you grab . . . I dont even know how to describe it.  You grab your vagina, I guess, and you 14 have to pull it back between your butt checks and then you have to, in some way, kind of either 15 put on tighter underwear to hold it in so that it doesnt move, but usually underwear is usually 16 some kind of cotton so it will move as time goes on.  17 
AJ: Sure. 18 
TF: So then you have to decide if youre going to do that and risk the chance of it moving, or taping 19 it, which is a little bit more painful.  And theres still a chance of it to move if youre too sweaty 20 or something.  So usually if Im going to work out, I usually tape it.  So I usually pull it back and 21 then put tape over the area to hold it in my butt checks. 22 
AJ: Directly on your . . .? 23 
TF: Skin? 24 
AJ: Skin. 25 
TF: I usually use some toilet paper or paper towel to put over and then I tape over that to keep it 26 less painful, but sometimes you get it directly on the skin but to be honest, I personally have not 27 dealt with it to be painful when I take it off.  Maybe it will pull a hair or two but otherwise youre 28 good. 29 
AJ: OK.  Wow, well thank you for that description.  So I want you to tell me, Thalia, about your 30 earliest memory in life.  Whats the first thing you remember?  And it doesnt have to be about 31 your gender identity, though if it is about your gender identity that is quite OK.  But, just dont 32 think that it has to be. 33 
TF: Definitely.  Early memories?  Well, when I was a little girl, or a little boy as some people would 1 have called me, I was very feminine and so I remember that all of cousins and my sister had 2 Bratz dolls. 3 
AJ: What? Brats dolls? 4 
TF: Bratz  B-r-a-t-z.   5 
AJ: OK. 6 
TF: And I would play with the guy ones, which was a little bit more accepting for me, even though it 7 wasnt acceptable at all because I wasnt supposed to play with dolls and my father made sure 8 that I knew it wasnt acceptable to play with dolls.  But I always wanted a girl doll really bad.  I 9 think my grandma bought me one quietly and let me play with it at her place all the time. 10 
AJ: Oh wow, OK. 11 
TF: Yeah, it was really secret though and when I would play, if my parents were around, we would 12 be really secret and if they came around I would throw it out of the way to make it seem as 13 though I wasnt playing with it. 14 
AJ: So how old do you think you were at this time? 15 
TF: Oh goodness, my memory with age is really bad so I actually . . . I feel like Ive blocked out a lot 16 of my memories from when I was younger so I have a couple that I remember and I dont 17 remember any age of mine that I did anything at all.  Once I start getting to the teens I actually 18 can remember a little bit more, but before that I cant remember my age at all of anything I did.  19 I dont know if its just a bad memory or things that have happened in my past that have kind of 20 kept me from wanting to remember it. 21 
AJ: Well what do you remember about elementary school?  Where did you go to elementary 22 school? 23 
TF: I went to two places.  I went to Nativity of the Lord, which was a predominantly white school 24 that was religious.   25 
AJ: Was it a Catholic school? 26 
TF: I believe it was a Catholic school.  Me and my sister were two out of like the six people of color 27 at that school, so that was interesting.  But we never really noticed it, I guess, for a while, and 28 then that school closed down.  That was actually a really good school in a way that people never 29 treated each other negatively.  I dont remember it perfectly but I never really had issues there.  30 But then we moved to the next school, that was also my middle school, elementary school, and 31 again it was predominantly white and that school was hell for me. 32 
AJ: What was it called? 33 
TF: First it was called St. Veronicas and then they changed the name to St. Thomas Aquinas 34 Academy. 35 
AJ: OK.  Where is this located? 36 
TF: This is located, I think its in Cudahy around Milwaukee.  Im not really good with the city of 1 Milwaukee.  Is Cudahy a part of Milwaukee?   2 
AJ: So its in Milwaukee, Wisconsin though. 3 
TF: Yes. 4 
AJ: Basically. 5 
TF: Yes. 6 
AJ: But you think its just a little suburb of Milwaukee. 7 
TF: Yeah, something like that. 8 
AJ: How do you spell Cudahy? 9 
TF: C-u-d-a-h-y.  Cudahy  yeah.  Thats my memory. 10 
AJ: So you said that school was bad at St. Thomas Aquinas. 11 
TF: Yeah. 12 
AJ: Did they tease you because you identified as a person of color?  And I want you to talk about 13 that too.  Or did they tease you because your effeminate nature?  What do you think that was 14 all about?  You said they teased your sister too? 15 
TF: No, my sister was not teased. 16 
AJ: OK, all right. 17 
TF: At lease from what I know.  She might have told me but she was definitely a little bit more . . . I 18 dont know, popular at that time than I was at that time.  She never really talked about it.  So 19 yeah, I think it was a little bit of a mix of both.  I was one of the few people of color at that 20 school so I feel like that was already kind of a . . . sticking out like a sore thumb, I guess. I dont 21 know, because everyone else was white.  So I already caught attention for not. 22 
AJ: So how do you identify ethnically? 23 
TF: I identify as Puerto Rican and white, or biracial at this moment.   24 
AJ: So you have Puerto Rican ancestry in your family? 25 
TF: Yes, my father is Puerto Rican and he is way darker than I am.   26 
AJ: All right.  And your mother is Caucasian? 27 
TF: White, yes Caucasian.   28 
AJ: OK, great.  So you think kids were sort of picking on your because of your race and race identity. 29 
TF: Yes, and I think that since they saw me as a person of color it was easier to focus me because I 30 stuck out and since I stuck out as a person of color, and I was effeminate, that was just so much 31 more of a reason to keep putting me down.  I feel like there were other people of color and it 32 was either you were the ones getting picked on or you were the ones helping the white kids pick 1 on.  You werent necessarily the ones picking on, you were just encouraging and in the back, like 2 helping them put other people down.  And so I was the little boy or girl that was a target of 3 being put down a lot. 4 
AJ: How did you deal with that?  Did you talk to teachers?  Did you talk to your parents? 5 
TF: I didnt talk to teachers.  I was quiet for a really long time, I was really silent  and that has to do 6 with a lot of reasons, I was just a very silent person.  My family, at home, was not the best 7 situation either.  I love my parents, dont get me wrong, but they were going through their own 8 issues and they were going with their issues . . . my father is from a Latin community, he has a 9 lot of machismo. 10 
AJ: Machismo.   11 
TF: More masculine, you know, and hes also in the Army. 12 
AJ: Oh really? 13 
TF: Yes.  But he did not like the fact of anything I was.  He hated who I was because he expected so 14 much different out of me.  So already there was nobody to talk to from him and my mom was 15 always there to support me but she could only do so much.  She couldnt protect me from my 16 fathers words and what not.  She didnt push him away, he was always there and she wasnt 17 always there actually with me  she wasnt walking around with me everywhere.  There was 18 only so much she could do.  And my brother, he was not really supportive either of me.  My 19 brother kind of had the same expectations as my father of me, and so they expected me to be 20 masculine and I was not, and they hated it.  I think they both hated it.  As well as I was the last 21 child.  When youre the youngest, I think theres a lot of sibling rivalry with the youngest child 22 because they feel like youre spoiled or get the most attention because youre the youngest.   23 
AJ: So, how many siblings do you have? 24 
TF: Two.  I have a brother and a sister. 25 
AJ: OK.  Now I know you shared with me that one of your siblings is also trans identified. 26 
TF: Yes. 27 
AJ: Do you want to talk about that at all? 28 
TF: Sadly not, just because I dont think they would approve of me talking about it. 29 
AJ: Thats fine, thats absolutely fine.  So, there was some conflict in your home growing up. 30 
TF: Yes. 31 
AJ: But you did grow up with both your parents in the house? 32 
TF: Yes I did. 33 
AJ: And they . . . your mom was somewhat supportive but only to the extent that she could . . .  34 
TF: Yes, and my father wasnt. 1 
AJ:  . . . overcome your father who has machismo and hes a military person so there is a lot of sort 2 of male energy happening in that household. 3 
TF: And I think it also kind of adds to the fact that hes a man of color, because I feel like a lot of 4 men of color, in the past, have been put down by white men. 5 
AJ: Oppressed, yes.  6 
TF: And been somewhat attempted to be feminized to shame their masculinity.  7 
AJ: Sure. 8 
TF: And so I feel like when a trans woman of color comes along theres a little bit more anger 9 towards that femininity because its like youre proving that stereotype right, what those white 10 mean were saying about our masculinity.  11 
AJ: Wow. 12 
TF: And so I feel like that definitely added to his somewhat frustration of me being an effeminate 13 boy and then later on me coming out and being open about being a trans woman of color. 14 
AJ: Wow, thats an interesting analysis.  When is the first time you realized that you were not quite 15 the gender you were assigned at birth? 16 
TF: Thats definitely a confusing story.  As I was growing up I considered myself a gay boy, thats just 17 kind of what I went towards because people kept telling me I was a boy.  So I just accepted that 18 and then I knew that I was attracted to men.  So I was like, Oh, I must be gay, a gay boy, 19 because thats what . . . If you like men and youre a man, supposedly youre gay so thats what 20 I kind of went towards.   21 
AJ: Thats so funny. 22 
TF: But I remember throughout my years I would always think to myself, like . . . I remember I used 23 to tell myself, Im not gay, Im not gay, that makes no sense  Im not gay.  Thats weird, Im not 24 gay.  And then my Catholic school didnt make that any better because they were like against 25 people who were in the LGBT community and the bullying and stuff just kind of kept it in more  26 like, I cant be gay because if Im gay it just gives them more of a reason to keep putting me 27 down as they are.  It probably wasnt going to change anything, they probably would be just as 28 mean as they were.  But, so as time went on I think deep down I always thought I was a girl until 29 people would tell me otherwise and that would discourage my thought of . . . maybe this is 30 different.  And then actually at the age of 16 or 15, I had a mental breakdown, a really bad one, 31 and I ended up in a mental institution and then I had to go to therapy.  Through my therapy, I 32 loved my therapist  she was amazing, and we were talking about a lot and she kind of came to 33 the conclusion . . . she was like, You keep saying that youre not a woman . . .  In some ways, 34 like throughout my many times of talking to her, I guess I would mention it without noticing and 35 she was like, I actually think that you might actually feel like you are a trans woman and then 36 you just keep putting it down because you dont want to accept it. 37 
AJ: Right.  Because it wasnt like she was asking you, Are you a woman? 1 
TF: No, exactly.  But she kept catching it  the things I would say like, Oh, Im not . . .  These things 2 that subconsciously I was saying and not knowing.  And so she mentioned it and I was like, Holy 3 crap, this is so right, this makes so much sense.  So I told my parents a little bit later on, 4 because I at first denied it.  And my mom was like, Oh, I dont think so.  And everybody was 5 telling me they didnt think that was right and possibly that my therapist was saying something 6 that was confusing me and trying to make me feel a certain way.  And so I was like, Oh, maybe 7 thats true.  So I believed them and tried to just kind of forget about it, deep down knowing 8 that Ive always been a woman and I think Ive always known that throughout my whole life  it 9 just was something that I had to accept and actually feel like I could be open about it.  And so 10 thats probably around 16 is when I started finally saying, OK, theres a possibility that this is 11 real, but Im going to put it in the back of my head and just keep trying to move forward.   12 
AJ: But that was difficult? 13 
TF: Oh yes, it was really difficult because being a gay man, but really a trans woman  its like people 14 will treat you so differently than you want to be treated and I had all friends that were women 15 and I would hate to be excluded from them when men would act towards them and then they 16 would act so different towards me  not only because I was a guy but because I was gay.  So it 17 was like I just felt so horrible all the time, because I wanted to be seen as something else and 18 everybody else was seeing me as something I didnt want to be seen as. 19 
AJ: Sure. 20 
TF: Everybody saw me as a man, and a gay man for that and it was really difficult.  My style was 21 really feminine so that would tell people, or help people assume that I was a gay man.  I was 22 harassed a lot throughout my life, everywhere I went.  It was really difficult.  I stopped going 23 places for a while because I was scared.  I remember this one time I was at South Ridge Mall in 24 Greendale, Wisconsin.  Its a mall . . . predominantly white but there are a good amount of 25 people of color there as well.  I remember going there, and I think it was predominantly men of 26 color too.  We almost got into like five or six fights.  My sister is really outspoken, whereas Im 27 really quiet and Ive been quiet because . . . Ive been bullied my whole life, Im just kind of 28 quiet. 29 
AJ: Yeah, you dont want to create more drama. 30 
TF: I dont want to create drama, Im just trying to survive, Im just trying to live my life, leave me 31 along.  But people would make comments, people would like stare and my sister, who loves me 32 to death but doesnt understand the fact that if she says something it embarrasses me because 33 then they get really vicious towards me and shes just kind of in the crossfire.  And then it feels 34 like Ive ruined that day.  Well that day that we were . . . it was me, her and a friend and there 35 was at least six groups of people who started something with us.  There was people trying to 36 fight us because of who I was and what I was wearing and there was a lot of violence and at one 37 point this one man, he was white, we walked past him and I guess he made some side comment 38 about me and my sister heard it and I didnt.  She spoke up and he got really crazy and 39 threatened to beat me up and throw my sister in the trash can that was next to us.  All the guys 40 that were with him were laughing and one guy was telling us to walk away, like were the ones 1 that did any of this.  I was really quiet and I felt so embarrassed, not only because I was quiet 2 and I should have said something, but because I was so scared and I shouldnt have been scared, 3 right?  So there was this conflicting feeling like, you know, Im supposed to be a man in this 4 situation because my sister is getting dissed and so am I, but if I say something theyre going to 5 beat me up or do whatever they can to me.  I cant fight, I couldnt fight at that time.  I cant 6 defend myself  Im really weak.  I dont work out, I dont have muscles, so it was just like it was 7 a really big moment.  We even talked to the police and I had the choice to kick them out of the 8 mall if I wanted to, for good, and I decided not to  I dont know why to be totally honest but I 9 just wanted them to take care of it and be done.   10 
AJ: Leave you alone. 11 
TF: Exactly.  That wasnt my goal  my goal wasnt to like get rid of them for good at the mall.  I 12 didnt really give a fuck, I just wanted to be done and get it over with because it was so 13 embarrassing.  It happened everywhere.  Id go to like the state fair in Wisconsin  again, it was 14 a bunch of white people that would usually make comments about my looks and stuff, there at 15 least because it was predominantly white again.  So, a lot of white adults would just make 16 comments about how I look and just call me disgusting from the sidelines and stuff.  That was 17 really hard because I just kept . . . once you keep hearing something over and over by different 18 people you start believing it, right?  19 
AJ: Yes. 20 
TF: And so I just felt disgusting and I felt gross and I felt like I shouldnt go out because I didnt want 21 to feel like that anymore and those people made me feel that way.  So I stopped going out and 22 stayed home.  Whenever my parents would go out with the family I would just stay inside.  My 23 parents are also outspoken and so I really didnt want to cause a fight because my father can be 24 aggressive, especially because he was insecure about me and so if someone said something 25 about my femininity and made fun of me hed probably get really upset and embarrassed and 26 then probably would fight.  That was the idea I had, at least. And so I really didnt want to go 27 and cause anybody else stress, and I didnt want to cause myself stress so I just stayed in a lot 28 and it was probably for like a year that I just didnt go out really at all because I was scared.  I 29 was scared for a lot of reasons.  One more story I have about one of my experiences is I was at 30 the Mall of America here and my family comes to visit a lot.  And I remember we were in a store 31 and as I walked out of the store, I was with my brother, his girlfriend, my mom and my sister, I 32 think  and then I think one of my cousins or something, and this guy was standing outside, a 33 white guy.  I feel like white people feel like they can say something to me thats insulting just 34 because Im somewhat lower than them because, first of all, Im a person of color and then 35 somewhat Im not the stereotypical masculinity that I was supposed to be.  So, I walked out of 36 the store and this guy looked at me and just said, Youre disgusting.   37 
AJ: What? 38 
TF: Yeah.  And I was like, OK, fuck you.  What am I supposed to say?  Every time I turn around 39 somebody is calling me disgusting or telling me I belong in a trash can or something.  So then 40 like my brother heard it and just became really argumentative and I was like, Lets go because I 41 cant handle this, everybody is arguing and its about me, Im the center of this and I dont want 1 to be the center of this, Im just trying to do my own thing here.  Im trying to go out and live a 2 life still that I barely had and it just was really hard and a lot of people made it hard  and it was 3 random people.  The way I expressed myself through my outfits was in some way trying to 4 express that woman that I was really and it just really attracted a lot of hate towards myself  5 transphobic comments and then any kind of LGBT negative comments. 6 
AJ: So today, what terms do you use to describe yourself?   7 
TF: She/her/hers.   8 
AJ: OK.  How has that changed over time? 9 
TF: It was a drastic change last year because I was like, Im done, Im a trans woman, Im a woman 10 and Im tired of the bullshit.  And so Im using she/her pronouns and thats it  and that started 11 last year.   12 
AJ: OK. 13 
TF: Probably last year during summer.  I told everybody, This is what Im doing and this is who I am 14 and youre going to get used to it.  I was like over it, throughout my whole life I just got tired of 15 it.  You get so pissed off and you get so done, I was done. 16 
AJ: So how has life been since youve made this declaration? 17 
TF: Its been better in some instances. I feel like deep down Im happier because Im me, Im finally 18 me, I finally get to be me.  That already in itself feels great, especially because I have a lot more 19 passing privilege now.  It just feels so much better to walk outside and not only not get 20 harassed, but get compliments. 21 
AJ: Get affirmed. 22 
TF: Yeah, get affirmed of being a woman and that feels amazing to get affirmed by people from the 23 outside that have no idea who I am and dont know my history.  Its just so different than I was a 24 while ago and I can honestly say that if I was in the position now, like with still all the violence 25 people were giving towards me before, I probably would not be existing at this moment because 26 I could not handle it anymore  it was very exhausting.  But Im just so thankful that its not like 27 that anymore because I couldnt handle it anymore.  But, Im still paranoid so if I go out and 28 somebody looks at me, Im insecure because I have this thing where I dont want to be seen as 29 transgender, even though being trans is not a negative thing but still in our minds, in some kind 30 of way, it still plays out negatively.   31 
AJ: Yeah, internalized transphobia is the phrase that they use. 32 
TF: Yes, exactly.  That is a perfect phrase for me.  So I still have that and I just want to be affirmed as 33 a woman, not as a trans woman, when Im out in public walking around just doing my own 34 thing.  And so when people stare at me I still get super insecure and nervous and my anxiety is 35 very bad still.  So thats difficult and I still dont go a lot of places because Im nervous, but from 36 the experience that Ive had so far recently since I have this kind of more passing privilege now, 37 its been pretty hard though. 38 
AJ: Youve got to talk to me about passing privilege.  What does that mean? 1 
TF: OK, so passing privilege is . . .  2 
AJ: What does that mean? Why do you think you have it?  And . . . yeah. 3 
TF: To a point I think I have it, and then to a point I dont think I have it.  I think Ill never see myself 4 as everybody else sees me and I see myself as still, in some ways, looking like a man.  Its like I 5 look in a mirror and Im not happy with how I look still.  I still have to keep trying to fulfill the 6 beauty requirements of all women because I just . . . and its so horrible because I shouldnt, but 7 its like you do it because you want to fit into society somehow and you kind of want to be over 8 the bullshit at this moment.  So that definitely is something that I do.  But OK, so passing 9 privilege, which I also think is really stupid, but its a privilege that trans people can have if you 10 pass as a cis gender person.  So when somebody looks at you and they dont think, Oh, she 11 must be transgender because she looks more masculine.  12 
AJ: Shes got big hands or big feet. 13 
TF: Exactly.  Stupid stereotypes like that that shouldnt count but they do still in our society.  People 14 still look for that and so I feel like I have it in some ways because everywhere I go Im not . . . 15 nobody ever addresses me as a man. 16 
AJ: So when you go to the restaurant, what does the . . .? 17 
TF: No, its like lady, maam, miss. 18 
AJ: OK. 19 
TF: So going into the womens bathroom and people ask me questions but not about being a trans 20 woman.  Hey, how did you do your lipstick?  Things like that and you just feel so like re-21 affirmed, like, Thank God, I can go into the womans bathroom now and not be scared.  I 22 remember I went through my stage where I wouldnt go in the womens bathroom because 23 youre like . . . I would run in there, close the door, go to the bathroom, and try to run out 24 because you didnt want to deal with being called out if somebody would be like, You look 25 trans, you must be a man.  You know what I mean?  So its that passing privilege that I 26 somewhat think I have because people dont refer to me anymore as a man or sir.  I never heard 27 those anymore.  Im never mis-gendered anymore and so I feel like I have that in some ways.  28 And then in some ways I still dont feel like I have it and I think thats more internalized because 29 Im going to look in a mirror and I dont see a woman sometimes. I still see this kind of masculine 30 person that I saw in the beginning of my transition.  So that really gets to me a lot of the time 31 because I have this desire to pass, this desire to be re-affirmed as a woman and nothing else. 32 
AJ: No, thats completely understandable.  So you went from this really sort of traumatic experience 33 of being harassed almost daily for being effeminate and now, just a little bit over a year later, 34 being really deeply affirmed as the person who you are.  How does that feel? 35 
TF: Its . . . you forget about it a lot to be totally honest.  Theres always other things going on so  36 youre always focused on that and you kind of forget about how far youve come and how much 37 youve done and how many obstacles youve actually surpassed  not just as a trans woman but 38 as a trans woman of color.  I was probably expected to totally fall, probably commit suicide in 1 the situation I was in, and I totally didnt do that.  So I think that when I stop and think about it, 2 it feels amazing for just those 10 seconds of forgetting about everything else and just thinking 3 about how far Ive come to get where Im at today.  My name is legally changed and my gender 4 isnt necessarily legally changed but Ive kind of sneaked around that and my ID says female.   5 
AJ: Oh really?  So thats legally. 6 
TF: Everywhere here says female  everywhere female except for . . . I dont know, like the 7 government, federal government, still has male on me or something.  But Ive pretty much . . .  8 
AJ: But all your enrollment and everything is . . . 9 
TF: Its female. 10 
AJ: In your name, Thalia? 11 
TF: Yes, Thalia.  And Ive slowly been changing everything else.  To think about it now, its really over 12 . . . I dont know the exact term but its just great to think about it and realize that you were 13 strong enough to make it so far . . .  14 
AJ: Its incredible. 15 
TF:  . . . and that youve done some incredible things that a lot of people probably couldnt have 16 done from the beginning.  Ive made it so far and thats really re-affirming to just think about.  17 But, I will say that in my mind I still have a really far way to go.  I still have a lot of things that 18 maybe Im not giving myself enough credit for and Im thinking, Youve still got to keep going 19 and youve got to keep changing things because Im not exactly how I want to look.  I dont 20 think Ill ever be exactly how I want to look to be honest because Im never going to see how I 21 look, I dont feel like I see myself because I feel like Im not attractive and I feel like Im this and 22 that and a lot of people tell me the opposite of that.  Its hard for me to even believe it and so I 23 look for confirmation by men, which is what distracts me and usually men give me that 24 confirmation and for that second it makes me feel better and then I come back to my dorm or 25 come back to wherever I am and reality and realize that I still dont feel that way. 26 
AJ: Hmmm.  OK.   27 
TF: So in some ways its really validating that Ive come this far and its so great, and then in some 28 ways I still put myself down. 29 
AJ: What challenges have you faced since youve come out?  You talked about a lot of the 30 challenges prior to coming out, but now that youve come out have there been different 31 challenges? 32 
TF: There has.  So being perceived as a man and then losing that passing privilege and then being a 33 woman in a society where women are degraded and oppressed and put down . . .  34 
AJ: Fetishized. 35 
TF: Exactly, and fetishized.  Thats one big thing that Im still trying to overcome is the fetishization 36 of trans women of color especially.  Women of color are already sexualized and then trans 37 women are already sexualized so trans women of color are over sexualized to the max and its 1 really something that I still have to overcome. I feel like what I have overcome since my 2 transition  Ive gone to the womens bathroom, thats one huge thing.  I can go in there and Im 3 not afraid.  I walk in there, sometimes I get a little nervous still, but I still walk in there.  Girls 4 locker rooms I go in now and Im totally OK with it.  I still get nervous and I think Ill still get 5 nervous for a while still, but I do it, and I feel like that is something I overcame.  I would have 6 never done that in the beginning of my transition.  So its just really amazing to think about that.  7 Other things that I have overcome so far throughout my transition?  Thats really difficult.  I 8 guess I dont really think about it that much.  I think about what Ive overcome before.  9 Throughout my transition I guess I still have a lot of things I have to overcome that I have not yet 10 overcame and I think that has to do with the fact that Ive been kind of ignoring a lot of things 11 more recently and kind of just trying to distract myself instead of trying to actually address the 12 problems.  Ive overcome, somewhat, learning make-up so that was really cool.   13 
AJ: Learning? 14 
TF: I can actually do my make-up now.  15 
AJ: Do make-up?  Oh cool. 16 
TF: I can actually do my make-up now without friends coming over and doing it.  My friends used to 17 do it all the time.  Id be like, Come over and do my make-up, please?  I need somebody to do 18 it.   19 
AJ: Every day? 20 
TF: Yeah, all the time  back at my last college. I knew that I had to learn, I was like, I need to know 21 how to do this because Im not going to have people with me all the fricking time.  Ive 22 definitely conquered it to the point where I feel comfortable going out wearing the make-up 23 that Ive done for myself and not being too nervous that someone is going to be like, Oh, you 24 dont look right  that make-up looks whack.     25 
AJ: Sure. 26 
TF: So the small things Ive overcome so far I would say as a trans woman and I would say as a trans 27 woman of color.  Theres still a lot I have to try and overcome because theres a lot of obstacles. 28 
AJ: But a lot of the street harassment and those kind of things has shifted for you, right? 29 
TF: They have, theyve totally shifted.   30 
AJ: Huh, thats awesome. 31 
TF: It is, its so awesome.   32 
AJ: Tell me about the current relationship between you and your birth family. 33 
TF: Right now were not on the best terms and I would say that I have a lot of anger towards my 34 family that I have not expressed in a positive way.  So its very hard . . . me and my mom, shes 35 always been there for me but she just doesnt . . . nobody is going to understand what Ive been 36 through  just like Ill never understand what theyve been through.  Do you know what I mean? 37 You just dont understand unless youve lived that life. But I try my best not to understand them 1 just to be there, whereas they try to understand my life and they dont get the fact that theyre 2 never going to understand it.  So they just kind of bother me about that a lot and they have a lot 3 of questions. Im just like, Stop, Im not answering them right now.  I have a lot of anger inside 4 of me towards my father still to this day because he was abusive in certain ways, whether or not 5 people want to admit it.  I dont necessarily like saying that because hes a great man. 6 
AJ: Yeah. 7 
TF: And its hard to say it because I dont want him to be shamed in any type of way.  Its the culture 8 that he came from that made him the way he acts.  He is definitely changing for the better, hes 9 definitely educating himself better. 10 
AJ: Thats good. 11 
TF: In the Army, he now does Reserves and he definitely . . . I think hes in charge of the LGBT 12 section.  Hes really trying. 13 
AJ: Wow, thats pretty awesome. 14 
TF: It is awesome. Even though hes trying, he still has his cracks of being really vicious towards me 15 if hes angry.  Some of my family are the type of people that will say anything they possibly can 16 to make you feel bad if theyre angry at you.  So my dad recently did that.  Last year, as I was 17 going to apply to the University of Minnesota, because I was over it, there was a really big 18 situation that occurred where I corrected my father at one point because he was being really 19 ignorant about Muslim people.  I was really irritated and was like, Just stop, God damn, please 20 stop with your ignorant spirit, I cant handle it right now.  He got really angry at me correcting 21 him.  Who knows?  Im not the best corrector when it comes to my family so I can be a little bit 22 more rude because its just really frustrating.  Hes a man of color so you would think that he 23 would kind of, at least, step back and think like . . . things that are told about my culture is not 24 always correct in the U.S. so why would we believe this society telling us about other cultures 25 and other religions.  He got really mad and he called me a he and he told me he can call me 26 whatever he desires to because I live in his house.  And then he managed to hit me with the frig 27 door while I was in the frig  like opening it, not sitting in the frig.  But yeah, so after that I was 28 fed up and I was done.  I told him, Im leaving.  Im going to find a way out of here and Im going 29 to go.  And I was with my partner at the time.  So I applied to the University of Minnesota 30 because I was like, I need to go somewhere better, and I somehow got in.  So that was one 31 really big encouragement of why I was leaving my house. 32 
AJ: Oh, Im sorry.  So you do talk to your mom? 33 
TF: Yes, I talk to my parents still to this day.  My mom calls me a lot.  I dont talk to my parents a lot, 34 I dont call them every day.  I probably dont talk to them for weeks unless they call me and Im 35 OK with that. 36 
AJ: What about your sister? 37 
TF: I actually just talked to her today.  I dont really talk to my family very much, I would say.  Im 38 just . . . at this point in my life Im a little bit more down and so I just kind of keep to myself at 39 this moment and that includes not talking to many people at all in my family.  So I havent really 1 talked to them but I did talk to my sister today, we talked for a good while  she talks too much.  2 I talk a lot, but she talks more than me. So I was on the phone with her for a little bit and Im 3 like, Ive got to go  you just keep talking and Ive got to go.  But yeah, so I just talked to her.   4 
AJ: Shes younger than you? 5 
TF: Shes older, shes 22.   6 
AJ: All right. 7 
TF: Im the youngest.   8 
AJ: Oh thats right, you told me that.   9 
TF: But we have a relationship. We used to be really close, now were not as close.  I dont think . . . 10 shes really . . . she does a lot of activism for a lot of different movements. 11 
AJ: Really?  OK. 12 
TF: Shes just like me, she goes to the university at Madison so shes definitely getting some good 13 education.  But she doesnt understand why me . . . its really difficult because sometimes I use 14 my anger and stuff in a negative way, which I shouldnt but sometimes Im just angry and I 15 should be able to be angry because of all the things that have happened in my life and she 16 doesnt get that.  She thinks Im just a rude, spoiled bitch and she just does not understand. 17 Shell be very . . . shell have a lot of sympathy for other people, or empathy  I dont know what 18 is the best term, but she does not for me.  So thats a really big thing that we have an issue with.  19 Shes not very careful with what she says to me and so she can be rude sometimes and she can 20 make comments that Ill take in a negative way about me being transgender, even though she 21 doesnt necessarily mean it that way.  But you have to be really careful how you speak to certain 22 people, especially with a lot of people . . . and she knows my insecurities and shell definitely . . . 23 shes like my father, kind of will say whatever you can if youre pissed at that person to make 24 them feel bad.  And so were not that close anymore but we still talk once in a while.  So I still 25 talk to my family once in a while but its not a really close relationship at this moment. 26 
AJ: When this semester is over, do you think that youll go home for the summer?   27 
TF: I really dont want to.  I want to stay away.  I told them I want to stay away.  I told them once I 28 leave and Im out of here, Im going to try my best to stay out of here.  They dont, obviously, 29 believe it but Im really trying my best to do it.  Im broke, so its going to be a little bit more 30 difficult.  And right now I dont have a job so Im not getting paid, so Im kind of just living off of 31 the loan that I still have left, which is a decent amount but not enough to go get an apartment 32 for 12 months.  Do you know what I mean?  So Im going to try my best to stay because I really 33 dont want to go back, because I dont consider that my home anymore and I really dont know 34 where my home is but I dont consider that my home either.  So Im trying my best not to go 35 back there.   36 
AJ: So Thalia, to the extent that you feel comfortable, tell me about any medical interventions that 37 you have done to this point. 38 
TF: Yeah, Im actually really comfortable with that.  My beginning was really aiming for the 1 hormones, that was the biggest thing.  I did get my hormones.  I am on estrogen and 2 spironolactone, which is a testosterone blocker. So thats awesome.  Ive been on it . . . I started 3 February 27th so its coming up for the year.  So Im super excited because thats just one year 4 and theres just so much more thats still able to happen.  So its so exciting.  I feel like in some 5 ways my confident side is like, I look this good already and these hormones are just going to 6 keep working.  Its so great.  And then I have done some electrolysis on my upper lip and some 7 down here, Ive done body waxes as well, which dont necessarily get rid of the hair but 8 sometimes it gets rid of hair.  So Ive done that and Im looking, and I really wanted to but now 9 that my father lost his job I dont know if Im exactly going to be able to do this  my parents 10 insurance covers a lot of the surgery for top and bottom and I really wanted to get my bottom 11 surgery in the summer  this summer, so that I could get it done because I really want to get it 12 done, it would be so great to get it done, but I dont know how thats going to go right now 13 because my father lost his job.  I dont know if its going to be a possibility anymore.  But that is 14 one thing that I do want to do and then I also want to do . . . I want to get more electrolysis or 15 laser hair removal to remove the hair all the way from my face, and then possibly my armpits.  16 Thats a little cheating but whatever, I dont want to shave anymore.  And then I . . . so I want to 17 get my top and bottom done, but the top part is not a big worry because I do have breasts 18 forming because of the hormones so Im not totally worried right now.  I do have like an A cup 19 right now.  I know they look bigger but they grow quicker.   20 
AJ: Thats nice, thats really great. 21 
TF: But yeah.   22 
AJ: And you think that you will pursue gender confirmation surgery at some point? 23 
TF: Yes, I really want to.  24 
AJ: Is there a specific moment or specific person that has had a significant impact on you regarding 25 your gender identity?  More so a specific person. 26 
TF: Gender identity?  Oh goodness, let me think.  A significant impact. 27 
AJ: You told me about the moment where you were at the hospital and the therapist . . .  28 
TF: She definitely opened my eyes but I wouldnt necessarily say that she . . . I guess in some ways 29 she opened my eyes to it, which was like a really big thing.  So I guess my therapist would be 30 considered like one person that definitely brought it to my attention and was like, Hey, this is 31 actually what youre telling me right now and youre just not accepting it.  And so I guess she 32 actually did kind of help me figure out, at that time, but it took how many more years later until 33 I actually got tired of everything and did it.  So I guess she would be a big person.  Otherwise, 34 possibly Laverne Cox. 35 
AJ: Oh, really?  Tell me more.  Say more. 36 
TF: I just started hearing about her  her and Carmen Carrera and Janet Mock.  I started hearing 37 about them a lot more in media coverage and I was like . . . well, theyre beautiful.  They are 38 gorgeous women of color and theyre doing such big things that I just want to do.  One of the big 39 things that theyve done is be themselves and I think that as I saw them being themselves and I 1 saw them getting really far, that gave me some kind of encouragement, like, OK, I see three 2 trans women of color that have passed so many obstacles to get where they are today.  If they 3 can do it, why cant I do it?  And so I think that definitely was a big eye-opener, like OK this has 4 given me a little bit more faith and hope that maybe I can do this and maybe I can just look as 5 beautiful as they are and just maybe I can get somewhere farther because they have and they 6 actually look like me in some way.  Do you know what I mean?  Theyre women of color, theyve 7 done so much.  Im a woman of color and I didnt think I could do that as a trans woman of color 8 until I saw them and they kind of gave me the inspiration to want to hurry the process up so that 9 I could get to that . . . being a trans woman of color and then doing something big.   10 
AJ: Wow.  So Laverne Cox, Janet Mock, and Carmen Carrera.  11 
TF: Yeah. 12 
AJ: Thats beautiful.  Talk to me about relationships and love.  How has that been impacted by your 13 gender identity? 14 
TF: Well in the . . . well, theres a really old story that has affected me still to today.  When I was 15 younger, I had a boyfriend and this was my first boyfriend ever.  It was right around when I came 16 out  not to everybody but to certain people.  And he . . . 17 
AJ: You came out as a . . .? 18 
TF: Gay man, sorry, it was around the age of 13, I think.  14, 13, I cant really remember my age.  19 And he . . . so at first I didnt know, but after a while it really bothered me.  So . . . its hard for 20 me to say, but he raped me.   21 
AJ: Ohhh. 22 
TF: At first I didnt know, because I kind of just let it happen.  But I went to therapy and I kind of 23 talked to my therapist and it was like, I didnt want to do it but he just kept telling me I should 24 do it, I should do it.  And then I kind of just did it  I didnt say yes, but I did it  just let him do 25 what he wanted to me.  And then the day after I just wanted to die.  That was a huge influence 26 on how I acted towards men.  I just kind of started giving myself up  so guy after guy after guy 27 after guy.  I was 14, 15, 16 and sleeping with . . . doing stuff with so many different guys.  I just 28 had no self-value and I just felt horrible about myself.  And then after a couple of years I kind of 29 started getting tired of feeling that way and I was like I really need to try and distance myself 30 from at least men right now, so I did that a little bit and then I kind of stopped with men at all 31 for two years. I wasnt in a relationship really  maybe like one man here and then one man 32 there but nothing big.  And when I started my transition right in the beginning I was kind of 33 excited because I could finally be myself and maybe accept what had happened to me and now 34 be with somebody who sees me for me.  It was just really exciting to finally, after all that time of 35 just giving myself up and just letting guys take advantage of me because I felt no self-worth and I 36 could finally be myself, I could finally have self-worth in some kind of way because I was me.  I 37 was finally a person that I actually somewhat liked seeing. 38 
AJ: Sure. 39 
TF: And I was really excited but in the beginning of my transition, no one told me that no one was 1 going to be interested in me.  And that was really hard for me to accept.  Month after month I 2 wanted to talk to somebody and finally maybe feel what real sex, what real love feels like  and 3 it just . . .  4 
AJ: So when you say no one told you no one would be interested in you.  Do you mean it like no one 5 was interested in you and people knew this but they didnt tell you or do you feel like no one 6 told you that because thats not true because a lot of people are going to be very interested in 7 you.  Which way do you mean? 8 
TF: I feel like it was more like . . . I never heard trans women talk about this and the one thing I 9 really . . . right when I started my transition, like right in the beginning  probably a couple 10 months in, I was talking, or trying to talk, to guys and I got no attention and I was still looked at 11 as a freak.  And so I was really upset, Im like, Im a woman now, you can finally talk to me, love 12 me, do something.  I always felt like nobody talked about that first couple of months of my life 13 were going to be like shit relationship-wise, nobody talked about it.  I didnt expect it.  I should 14 have expected it but I didnt.  I was hoping that I would just become a butterfly.  So my love life 15 was sort of blah the first couple of months of my transition.  I went on like Tinder and started 16 talking to people and a little bit, probably a couple of months after I felt like nobody was talking 17 to me, I started maybe looking better.  I really dont know when it started happening but then 18 guys started talking to me all over on Tinder.  First it was Tinder, I was getting any talking  guys 19 werent talking to me in person, just Tinder.  And then on Tinder, I think most of the guys just 20 wanted me like sexually because it was like a fetish, Oh, I want to sleep with this trans woman, 21 because they watch that porn and they want to live that porn and this fantasy or some stupid 22 shit. 23 
AJ: Exactly.   24 
TF: That was difficult because I was like, Oh, should I do it? because Im trying to find a fit off of it 25 too, or should I not because I want to have some self-worth after never having self-worth.  So I 26 didnt do it, and it was really hard.  And then probably months, months later, after Id been on 27 hormones for a while, my love life has definitely changed in the fact that I do talk to men now 28 and not just men that sexually want me, but men that want to talk to me and men that find me 29 attractive.   30 
AJ: Intelligent. 31 
TF: Yeah, intelligent men who are educated on trans women of color.  So thats just been awesome.  32 And then I met my partner, that Im not with right now, but we were together for eight . . . nine 33 months . . . ten months.  Gosh, my memory sucks.  He was amazing.  He was a trans man so it 34 was so much . . . it was so amazing because he understood in some ways.  Hes a trans man of 35 color too so it was perfect  trans woman of color, trans man of color, we get each other.  It was 36 so great.  And I still am madly in love with him and I think Ill always have a place in my heart for 37 him but now Im just kind of into the relationship part where its like if this is not working out for 38 both of us then we move on.  But Ive gone so far now, now Im in this section where Im not 39 worrying about men wanting me, Im in relationships  who do I want to be with and who do I 40 want to be in love with.  I still struggle with thinking that a man who Im going to be totally 41 interested in, that Im going to totally want, Im not going to find.  But I still have hope that Im 1 going to.  Thats the thing that I hope everybody has, but I do struggle with the fact that I do 2 worry that sometimes Im not going to find a man that loves me so much because Im a trans 3 woman of color.  So, its still a struggle and I love my ex-boyfriend so much and I wish that I 4 wanted him the most, but I had some doubts and I couldnt let it . . . I couldnt hide it.  I didnt 5 want to pretend something was perfect when it wasnt.  So I made the decision for both of us 6 that we deserved, we both deserved, something better.  He doesnt necessarily agree with me, 7 he doesnt think that I should make decisions for him but . . . 8 
AJ: Thats probably true but Im not going to get into that.  9 
TF: But at the end of the day, I am excited because Im just more of me every day and Im starting to 10 talk to guys not just online but in person, that Im meeting.  Its reaffirming and its helped me 11 feel a little bit better about maybe, just maybe, Ill find somebody thats perfect for me and Ill 12 find somebody thats perfect for me and accepts me and loves me for being a trans woman of 13 color.   14 
AJ: So what would you say your sexual orientation is? 15 
TF: Ive been debating about that a lot because Im like . . . Im interested in men.  I realized that 16 theres a possibility I would identify as queer because theres a lot of different genders out there 17 that I might be interested in those people who identify with that gender and Im not going to 18 totally cancel that out.  Like Im not going to be like, Oh, Im only interested in one thing, in 19 case something else comes around and Im like, Oh, Im interested in this person because 20 theyre amazing.  So Im not going to cancel that out.  So I would identify as queer because I still 21 want to keep open in case I do meet somebody.  Labels are too strong, so queer is a really good 22 label to just kind of say, Who knows? 23 
AJ: Hey world, here I am.  Well good. Has there been someone in your life or have there been 24 times in your life when someone has been really helpful or someone has been super insensitive, 25 like in the medical industry or the criminal justice system or even in educational institutions?   26 
TF: Actually I worked at JC Penney and my name was legally changed by then but I didnt legally 27 change it everywhere yet.  I still had to give papers out to show everybody the proof that I 28 legally changed it.  The social security office for JC Penney was telling me that if I did not change 29 my name through social security they werent going to do that either.  I was like, But my name 30 is legally changed and I have the papers so you need to do that.  What the fuck are you doing?  31 This is my legal name now, youre putting an old name on there that doesnt even exist 32 anymore.  What are you doing?  The person, I think its . . . I dont remember her name, but she 33 was the person that helps out with that kind of social issues, and she was not the best. 34 
AJ: HR? 35 
TF: HR or whatever, somewhat HR or something.  She was not helping that much  she was sending 36 them emails and they just werent listening to her.  I was like, Thats great, youre not helping 37 me at all.  And then she was telling me . . . they threatened, they were like, Were going to 38 change your name back to the old name, which made no sense because my name was legally 39 changed.  But they were threatening this and I was like, What are you going to change?  If 40 they changed my name on my work list or something people were going to see and I was really 1 scared because I dont want to deal with any kind of ignorant things at my job, I was just trying 2 to work  Im trying to make money, Im trying to survive, you cant be doing this to me.  And 3 the HR person that was at JC Penney, I think they were HR but God, I dont know. They were 4 telling me they cant really do anything right now and they dont know where the name is going 5 to change and they asked and the person didnt tell them directly. So, the name changed as I 6 went to go buy something and they said my old name and I was like, What the fuck?  I was so 7 embarrassed, I was like, What do I say to this?  What do you say to that?  They said my old 8 name and I was like, Holy fuck, this is not cool.  I was so scared.  So I got really pissed and I 9 sent my HR person . . . I said, If this isnt taken care of, were going to take this somewhere 10 else.  As a threat  if youre going to fuck me over thats fine, lets take it somewhere. 11 
AJ: Yeah. 12 
TF: Lets bring the media into this, lets show them how youre acting right now.  It necessarily 13 wasnt her fault but nobody was doing enough and somebody needs to be doing more.  And 14 then my manager, the highest manager  I think she was like the store manager, called me in 15 one day and she . . . for lack of better words, she was a bitch and she was really ignorant.  She 16 called me and she sat me down and shes like, Im very pissed at you.  I was like, Why are you 17 pissed at me?  Please explain, I would love to know because I did nothing wrong.  Shes like, 18 You are making this into such a big deal.  The name only changed for when I bought 19 something, so even though I couldnt buy anything, which is also a big issue because I should be 20 able to buy and not worry about whatever . . . that was the only time my name changed, so it 21 didnt change on the work list or anything, but I didnt know.  I didnt know where it was going 22 to be changed. 23 
AJ: Right, you just knew . . .  24 
TF: Exactly, so thats why I was pissed.  And shes like, Youre making this into a bigger deal than it 25 is, thats not fair, and just being really rude to me and talking about how everybody has got 26 their own issues and mine is not central and, Trans people are accepted today.  I was like, Are 27 you kidding me?  Theyre not.  Shes like, Well I accept them.  I was like, Thats you, youre 28 one person.   29 
AJ: Right. 30 
TF: And then she named one of the other girls at my work that accepts them too.  I was like, Im so 31 baffled at how stupid you are. 32 
AJ: If that was true we wouldnt be having this conversation right now. 33 
TF: Exactly.  And she was just like talking about how I was horribly acting out and stuff and that, If 34 anybody was ever to say something negative about you being transgender, we would fire 35 them.  Im like, Yeah, you can fire them and then what?  Theyre pissed and wait for me 36 outside of work so they can kill me and then what are you going to do?  Its going to be in your 37 hands.  But she didnt get that obviously, she didnt really think about it  shes not transgender 38 so she didnt have to worry about it.  And then she was telling me experiences of other workers 39 experiencing some kind of negative reaction and she was like, And they cant hide from it but 40 you can.  I guess I had this passing so she was telling me I pass, like, You can pass so nobody is 1 going to know youre transgender so you dont even have to worry.  And then she gave me an 2 example of a woman who was Muslim at our job and shes telling me about how she was crying 3 one day and Im like, Why are you telling me about this womans business? 4 
AJ: Yeah, I dont need to know . . . this is irrelevant to the conversation were having. 5 
TF: Yeah, I think she was really trying to minimize my experience and I think she didnt realize it and 6 then she was talking about how shes white and people have said mean things about white 7 people to her.  I was like . . . I was thrown off because Im like, OK, Im Puerto Rican and people 8 have told me I was a . . . I dont know if I want to say the word but theyve called me the n 9 word but they said border or island or sand, so . . . it was just baffling and I was like, What 10 could they have said about white people that was so disrespectful?  Did they call you a honky or 11 something?  That word is so fucking stupid and nobody is offended by it.  I have my white family 12 and if I call them a honky theyd probably laugh and be like, What the fuck is that?  I was 13 baffled and she was just really ignorant, not only to my being trans but to me being brown  just 14 a very ignorant woman.  I was so pissed because she was telling me, I feel bad for you because 15 you have anxiety and I feel so sorry for you.  Like trying to make me feel small, and she did 16 make me feel small at one point, at that moment, because I didnt know what to say and I was 17 really quiet and I was like, Oh my God  do I want to hit her?  Is this going to end up with me 18 hitting her and going somewhere?  She was like poking at it and she was trying to make me feel 19 like so stupid.  I felt so disrespected  she was disrespecting trans people and people of color, 20 just everything in one fricking discussion and she was just . . . and then I think I snapped on her 21 and she kind of brought it back together because I was really pissed.  But thats one big 22 experience that I had and I really wanted to get her fired, to be totally honest with you.  I could 23 have reported it, and she wouldnt give me HRs number  like the headquarter HR, she would 24 not give me it.  She was like, Oh, theyre busy and they dont need to deal with you.  And then 25 she actually called the social security office, the people that were harassing and saying they 26 were going to change my name back, and the person that threatened to change my name back 27 wasnt there anymore.  Theyd just got fired that day or something and I was like, I wonder . . .  28 Thats weird, thats so weird.  And why wouldnt she give me HRs number?  What are you trying 29 to keep me from saying?  Obviously if youre afraid of me calling HR then there is obviously 30 something that youre afraid is going to happen.  So that was just one big thing in my life that 31 did occur since my transition. 32 
AJ: Did it ever get squared away? 33 
TF: It did not.  To be totally honest I could have been sucky at . . . my anxiety is really bad again, like 34 I said, and I still have some kind of depression and so that really gets to me sometimes and I just 35 needed to be with people I love and I decided just to leave. 36 
AJ: Did you stay at the job? 37 
TF: I did not.  I stayed at the job for a while, I stayed after a couple of months still, and then I 38 decided it was time to just . . . every time I saw her I was furious and I just wanted to slap her.  I 39 just had to get out of there.  I was going to be coming here so I was like, Oh, Ive got a month or 40 two, lets just pack and get ready.  So I just left.  I didnt tell her I was going to leave, and I 41 should have told her I was going to leave because I still wanted to get her fired, but I didnt and I 1 just left.   2 
AJ: Wow. 3 
TF: So she won in some ways, but thats OK.  Shell get what she deserves.   4 
AJ: When is the first time you ever met a trans-identified person? 5 
TF: Well, thats not difficult.  Sibling. 6 
AJ: Oh yeah, thats right.   7 
TF:  I grew up watching them.   8 
AJ: So did they have any . . . do you think that had any influence on your . . .? 9 
TF: It did is some ways because I knew what being trans meant and it made sense  like there was 10 some kind of words to put to how I felt. 11 
AJ: You werent like, Oh, my God, theyre so crazy, why are they doing . . .?  You were like, Oh my 12 God, thats how I feel.   13 
TF: Exactly.  I used to have a lot of anger towards trans people.  I was very transphobic, I guess you 14 could call it  even though I hate phobic, the term phobic is stupid.  I call it more like trans 15 hatred just because I feel like thats a better representation because phobia is so stupid, youre 16 not afraid of trans people, youre just dumb as fuck. 17 
AJ: Right . . . well thats a good point, I like that.  Thats interesting.   18 
TF: So I was like dumb as fuck and I was sitting there hating on people who were transgender 19 because I was like, What is wrong with them?  And I think I hated them because I was 20 transgender and just so ashamed of that and hated myself so I expressed that hatred to other 21 trans people.  Which is really funny because of my sibling and everything and I had no hatred 22 towards them but anyways . . . 23 
AJ: So you had exposure to it  the trans identity and the issues.  Did your parents dismiss your 24 sibling? 25 
TF: I just know that the history when they were younger was really hard and they kept denying it 26 and were really mean.   27 
AJ: OK.  Is your sibling much older than you are? 28 
TF: Yes, very  so they kind of were in the older days.  Yes. 29 
AJ: The older days.  Like how much older?  What are they 40?  30? 30 
TF: 30.   31 
AJ: OK.  So thats not too much olden days. 32 
TF: Its still 10 years apart and those 10 years are still a little bit different generation.   33 
AJ: Yes, absolutely  youre absolutely right.   1 
TF: And Laverne Cox wasnt here. 2 
AJ: Laverne Cox was not doing her thing  yeah. 3 
TF: At that time Laverne Cox was not . . . and now I can point at trans people and be like, They are 4 there, thats me, and I can use them as some kind of explanation of who I am.   5 
AJ: Yeah. 6 
TF: And theyre doing such great things so it shouldnt necessarily be negative to be trans, so that 7 was a little bit more beneficial to me than people in my past.   8 
AJ: Yeah, got it.  So . . . wow.  That is very interesting.  Tell me, what do you think the relationship is 9 between the T, and the L, the G, and the B.   10 
TF: I was just talking about this to my ex-partner. 11 
AJ: So youve got some thoughts about it. 12 
TF: I do because I personally think that LGBT is a little bit too misguiding.  I think that the T should 13 invent its own flag  its own . . . like not LGB.  T is a gender, do you know what I mean?  That is 14 just your gender, it may be socially constructed but its your gender.  Whereas LGB is sexuality, 15 who you prefer to be with whereas T is who you are.  I think combining them definitely skews 16 peoples idea on what the T means.  People think its just sexuality or something which is so 17 stupid  its obviously not.  So I just think the relation . . . and trans people can be LGBIQQAA, do 18 you know what I mean?  I think . . . but now that its together its like engrained together the 19 LGBT . . . I mean, keeping it is probably like . . . you should keep it then.  Ive had some instances 20 where I saw LGB and it didnt include the T and Im like I would agree with that if the T was 21 somewhere else really big, but since its not thats just disgraceful that you would exclude the 22 people who have been not only in the communities as well, but have been fighting for the rights 23 of those communities. 24 
AJ: Absolutely.  Yeah, and . . . Im not going to get too deep into that, well just deal with your 25 answer  and its a beautiful answer.  I think youre right on point.  Do you think there is an 26 agenda for the transgender community?  If you do, what is that?  And if you dont, should there 27 be one? 28 
TF: OK.  So I may be totally stupid but Ive heard everybody talk about agendas  the gay agenda, 29 the trans agenda, and I have no idea what that means?   30 
AJ: OK, thats real. 31 
TF: So agenda like . . . if were talking about the goal . . . 32 
AJ: Yeah, thats all. 33 
TF: That kind of thing.  The goal for trans people is just to educate, like to make trans people feel 34 safe in the society that we live in and to not feel excluded, but I also think that we dont just 35 focus on trans people, we have to focus on intersectionality and that is fighting for all people  1 trans people are people of color and trans people have disabilities and trans people . . .  2 
AJ: And trans people are gay or lesbian or . . .  3 
TF: Right, exactly.  So I think the goal really is . . . and this is for the more . . . I dont want to say 4 educated but whats the term . . . progressive people.  I feel like the more progressive trans 5 people, their goal is to just work with every other movement and really just keep pushing for 6 equitability, equality  you want to be equal but also equitable because some people are 7 disadvantaged right from the beginning.   8 
AJ: Sure. 9 
TF: So I think thats the biggest agenda.  I dont think its a trans agenda, I think its like everybody 10 who is progressives agenda.   11 
AJ: A human rights agenda. 12 
TF: Yeah, exactly. 13 
AJ: That recognizes and centers transgender people within those narratives. 14 
TF: Exactly  thank you.  Thats exactly it though. 15 
AJ: OK.  But dont let me put words in your mouth. 16 
TF: No, no.  Sometimes I just cant explain some things.  I dont have that exact . . . but you got it.   17 
AJ: All right.  So you would initial that.   18 
TF: Yes, I would initial that for sure.   19 
AJ: All right.  Have you ever been involved with an LGBT organization?  Have you ever worked for a 20 queer organization or volunteered with a queer organization?   21 
TF: I dont believe I have.  Rainbow Unity I kind of was involved in on my last campus, UW-LaCrosse 22  the University of Wisconsin-LaCrosse.  I did do some things with them.  I really didnt work for 23 them but I did go to conferences with them so I dont know if that counts.  Like MBLGTACC, 24 which was so amazing. 25 
AJ: What is that? 26 
TF: Midwest LGBTIQQAA conference and its fantastic. 27 
AJ: LGBTQ . . . ? 28 
TF: LGBTIQQAA.   29 
AJ: What is AA? 30 
TF: Asexual and . . . I think its a-gender, but dont quote me.   31 
AJ: OK. 32 
TF: Yeah, maybe.   1 
AJ: All right.  Or Allies maybe. 2 
TF: Or actually I think it is ally but I think there was a debate on if ally should be included.  I dont 3 know.  Its like a really long . . . and you just say it to keep people included as much as possible.  4 But its a great conference and they have speakers there and I got to see one of my favorite 5 speakers, Janet Mock, before I started my transition and she was amazing.   6 
AJ: Oh great. 7 
TF: And I got to see Laverne Cox and that was amazing.   8 
AJ: Janet is a really good friend of mine and shes beautiful. 9 
TF: Really?   10 
AJ: Yeah. 11 
TF: Shes amazing. 12 
AJ: Shes so intelligent, so beautiful, so generous with her time and her spirit. 13 
TF: Oh my God, I would love to meet her. 14 
AJ: Yeah, well you will  youll meet her one of these days. 15 
TF: I know, Ive got to get . . . Im going to get up there and then Im going to go meet everybody.   16 
AJ: You told me you worked as a . . .  17 
TF: Gender issues director. 18 
AJ: Gender issues director. 19 
TF: Yes, and it wasnt necessarily . . . thats why I didnt kind of include it because it wasnt 20 necessarily with any community  like no LGBT community, it was with the school.  And so, I 21 would . . .  22 
AJ: And so it wasnt specifically about transgender, its about . . .  23 
TF: No, its about all genders. 24 
AJ: All genders, OK.   25 
TF: Pretty much on our campus and making the campus a more safe space for all different genders, 26 which they probably assumed it was not what I assumed it was.  Like I was trying to include all 27 genders whereas they probably thought man, woman. 28 
AJ: Yeah, exactly. 29 
TF: And so I definitely thought I was a really good person for that position because I was actually 30 educated and experienced in other communities than just having cis men and cis women.   31 
AJ: Sure.  Yeah, OK.  Wow.  Were getting close to the last question here.  Caitlyn Jenner is probably 1 now the most famous transgender person in the world.  Right? 2 
TF: Yes. 3 
AJ: Theres a lot of debate about whether or not Caitlyn is a good role model or spokesperson for 4 the transgender community.  I dont necessarily want to deal with that question, Im wondering 5 what do you think the role of visibility is for the trans community?  Is this increased visibility that 6 people like Janet, people like Laverne, people like Carmen Carerra and most recently Caitlyn 7 Jenner have garnered, is that helpful or harmful to the trans community in your opinion, Thalia? 8 
TF: I think its both.  I think its both because I think that Caitlyn Jenner being open as a trans 9 woman is beneficial to the fact that it brings visibility to the trans community, but it also brings 10 whiteness to the trans community and usually it always happens where the main person of 11 communities usually ends up being white and I dont necessarily agree with that because theyre 12 only speaking from the white side and theres a lot more stories to be heard that are not going 13 to be heard because of that.   14 
AJ: Sure. 15 
TF: So I feel like its beneficial because it brings visibility but its not beneficial because now its only 16 telling one narrative of a white trans woman who is wealthy and that doesnt give a good view 17 of any other trans people, it doesnt give many stories of other trans people which then skews 18 peoples view on what trans people look like  white woman who can afford like all the surgeries 19 right away.  Do you know what I mean? 20 
AJ: Yes. 21 
TF: So in some ways I think its beneficial because its bringing visibility to the trans community and 22 people are probably like Googling what trans means and it might bring visibility to other trans 23 people like Laverne Cox and Janet Mock who, I believe, should be, if anything, the role models.  24 They should be the ones that are getting the most attention since, and this is really a big thing, 25 since Caitlyn Jenner is not only wealthy but shes white, shes the one getting attention because 26 of those reasons.  So beneficial/not beneficial, I guess it varies on the way you look at it.  But I 27 think it goes both ways. 28 
AJ: OK.  Thalia, is there anything else that you want to share that I didnt have the good common 29 sense to ask you about?   30 
TF: Not that I know of.   31 
AJ: Whats it like being . . . you represent this whole new, I think, chapter in sort of trans history.  I 32 mean youre going to college as a trans woman. I lived on this very campus as a 19- and 20-year-33 old and I just feel like there was no way I could have come out as that person, but here we are 34 sitting in your dorm room and youre living that. 35 
TF: I am. 36 
AJ: What do you see for the trans community in the next 50 years? 37 
TF: Ohhh . . . well, I can say that Im very thankful for the trans people ahead of me, before me, who 1 definitely made it possible for me to come here  and not just trans people but trans people of 2 color and all people of color.  Definitely though, people fought very hard to have me come here 3 and Im so appreciative of that because I would never have had this opportunity to be myself, 4 get an education as a trans woman of color  like that never would have been a thought.  Cis 5 women had a really hard time coming to school already and trans women of color . . . thats 6 amazing to me to think that I have this opportunity and a lot of other trans women of color do 7 too.  Not a lot, but a lot  a good amount.  Not many in certain communities, which is obviously 8 a big thing that, I think, this generation is going to be fighting for.  Were going to . . . I think that 9 in the next 50 years I can see a lot more trans people coming to college and a lot more trans 10 people getting positions that would have never been a thought in the persons head 50 years 11 ago.  So I think that we have a long way to go and I think that in 50 years were going to have 12 succeeded in somewhat existing as ourselves in a community and being comfortable in the 13 community, but I dont think everything is going to become perfect because I think were always 14 going to have to fight because the society that we live in is set-up in a way that needs to be 15 changed and its not going to be changed in a year, its not going to be changed in 50 years.  Its 16 going to be a long time to be changed.  I think theres going to be more visibility, theres going to 17 be a lot more education, and theres going to be a lot more opportunities, but I think its not 18 going to be even close to the end of fighting for trans peoples rights, trans people of colors 19 rights  all the intersectionalities that are in that as well.   20 
AJ: Wow, thats beautiful.  Thank you so much, Thalia, for being willing to just open up yourself and 21 share a little bit about your journey and where youre heading, where you came from, and I wish 22 you the best of luck with everything. 23 
TF: Thank you. 24 
AJ: And until we meet again. 25 
TF: Exactly.  I wish you the best too. 26 
AJ: Bye-bye. 27 

