   
Renata Garcia and Jennicet Gutierrez Narrator   Andrea Jenkins Interviewer 
    
The Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies University of Minnesota 
October 3, 2015 
 
 
   

 
  
The Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story, while providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source material about the transgender community.  The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for current and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public. 
The Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300 individuals over the next three years.  Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and experiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality.  This project will be led by Andrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist.  Andrea brings years of experience working in government, non-profits and LGBT organizations.  If you are interested in being involved in this exciting project, please contact Andrea. 
Andrea Jenkins jenki120@umn.edu (612) 625-4379 
   
 
Andrea Jenkins -AJ 1 
Renata Garcia  -RG 2 
Jennicet Gutierrez   -JG 3 
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AJ:  My name is Andrea Jenkins and I am the oral historian with the Transgender Oral History Project 6 at the University of Minnesota, the Tretter Collection in the Anderson Library.  Today is 7 Saturday, October 3rd.  Its a beautiful fall evening and I am here with Ms. Renata Garcia. 8 
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RG: Yes, thank you for inviting me. 10 
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AJ: And Ms. Jennicet Gutierrez. 12 
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JG: Correct.  Thank you for having me.   14 
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AJ: Yeah, what a joy, what a pleasure, what an honor to get to talk to you ladies this evening.  I want 16 to just start by having you guys repeat your names and just say whats your preferred gender 17 pronouns, what was your gender assigned at birth, and . . . yeah, that would be perfect.  Just so 18 everybody on camera can know who you guys are, whos who.  I said your names but they dont 19 really know who is who  so let us know. 20 
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JG: My name is Jennicet Gutierrez, thats spelled J-e-n-n-i-c-e-t, my last name is G-u-t-i-e-r-r-e-z as in 22 zebra.  My preferred gender pronouns are she/her/hers and I was assigned male at birth. 23 
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AJ: OK, thank you. 25 
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RG: Wow, thats a lot of words.  My name is Renata Garcia and my name is R-e-n-a-t-a Garcia, G-a-r-27 c-i-a.  I prefer her, I prefer she, I prefer female.  I prefer Miss, Maam, lady, of course.  And I was 28 birthed as a male.   29 
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AJ: All right.  Wow.  So, this is my first interviewing two people together and so I just want to make 31 sure that as we are talking that people say their names so that our transcriber can know who is 32 talking.  But, lets start with you, Renata, what is your earliest memory? 33 
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RG: Earliest memory about me being a human being or me being a transgender? 35 
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AJ: Being a human being. 37 
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RG: OK, I had to go back when I was probably three or four and I was in kindergarten.  I always look 39 to older guys and when I was four I thought it was normal and the other kids were like always 40 see the same people, I would see it.  I didnt know then that I was . . . back there you could call 41 me a gay boy, I guess, and that would be my earliest memories. 42 
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AJ: Oh, wow.  What about you Jennicet?   44 
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JG: This is Jennicet.  My earliest memory would be probably, I want to say also around three years 1 old.  I grew up with a single mom but I have this vivid memory of my father that wanted to see 2 us and I remember he hugged me and knew that my mom had made a decision not to be with 3 him because he happened to be married and my mom didnt know, so it was a really, very 4 heavy, emotional memory that I have and in a way, I knew that I wasnt going to be able to see 5 him again.  So it was a very . . .  6 
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AJ: At three years old?   8 
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JG: At three years old, I remember.  It was like a dream but it was like I knew that he was my father 10 and it was kind of embracing me as a human and for me to be conscious of my existence but at 11 the same time it was like a goodbye.  So it was really emotional but I would say that that would 12 be the earliest memory I have. 13 
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AJ: Wow.  Where did you grow up? 15 
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JG: Again Jennicet, and I grew up in Mexico.  I was born in Tuxpan, thats T-u-x-p-a-n, in the state of 17 Jalisco, Mexico  its kind of southwest of Mexico and thats where I grew up. 18 
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AJ: Theres a lot of families that are from Jalisco here in the Twin Cities.  It seems like its a pretty 20 popular connection.  So, what about you Renata?  Where did you grow up? 21 
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RG: I grew up in Mexico also, in a very small farmers town called Axochiapan, its A-x-o-c-h-i-a-p-a-n, 23 Morelos, thats the state and also its in Mexico, the country.  Also Im coming from a single 24 mom, she had to raise six children, she was busy, she dont have TV back then.  So, yeah.  I 25 crossed illegally when I was 16-years-old to the United States.  I come straight from Axochiapan 26 to Minneapolis, Minnesota  well, not Minneapolis but it was Burnsville.   27 
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AJ: OK, so Minnesota.   29 
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RG: It was Minnesota, yes.   31 
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AJ: What about you Jennicet? 33 
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JG: I came to the U.S. when I was 15 and again, Jennice speaking.  I crossed the border without 35 documentation as well and we settled in L.A., Los Angeles. 36 
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AJ: Los Angeles  and is that where you currently live?   38 
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JG: I currently live in Los Angeles, California, correct.   40 
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AJ: I see.  Is this your first time in the Midwest or have you been to Minneapolis before? 42 
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JG: No, this is my first time.   44 
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AJ: What do you think of Minneapolis? 46 
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JG: Minnesota is a beautiful state and then Minneapolis is a beautiful city.  I think I came at a good 1 time before the really winter storm hits town.  Im enjoying it, its a beautiful city, very warm 2 people that I have encountered so far.  Im only here for a few days so its really hard to draw 3 conclusions, but based on this day obviously I am having fun. 4 
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AJ: I think the thing that sort of marks a city is the relationships that you have with people there.  As 6 long as youre having a good time with friends or family or whatever, its always good. 7 
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RG: Yes, or with guys. 9 
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AJ: Or with guys, guys I think qualify as friends.  What was your home life?  Both of you talked about 11 being raised in a single-parent household, single moms.  What was home life like?  What was 12 school life like?  Whoever wants to start.  13 
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RG: Do you want to go first? 15 
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JG: I can start, this is Jennicet speaking.  Growing up in Mexico, I want to say that I had a pretty 17 good childhood.  I grew up with a single mother and did elementary school and junior high and 18 when I finished junior high thats when I came to the U.S.  But I do have some . . . thats when I 19 started to explore who I was, my sexual orientation, my gender identity.  But it was a process 20 that took time, but pretty much in junior high is when I started to kind of open up about who I 21 was and once I started to open up.  Going back to my childhood I used to be very social, my 22 mom would always have a very difficult time  like, Where is Jennicet?  What is she doing?  I 23 was always with friends playing or visiting the neighbors and stuff.  But then in junior high I 24 started to explore my sexual orientation more openly and it started to create a little tension 25 between friends because the stigma that is attached to sexuality in general and then when you 26 start to show inclinations of having an attraction for the same sex, the word started spreading 27 around and friends kind of started to step away from you.  I had . . .  28 
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AJ: Did you experience any bullying or just really mean behavior? 30 
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JG: Yeah, I absolutely did.  Bullying was an issue and I remember I had a crush on a boy that I shared 32 this story and it kind of left a mark on my body because I started to express feelings for him and 33 I was telling friends, very nave  thinking that it was normal, but it got to him, he got really 34 upset, and he started kind of harassing me and making fun of me and started using derogatory 35 terms, like, If you really are gay then you need to stop talking to me, dont be spreading rumors 36 because . . . or whatever.  I continued to express my feelings and one day he just . . . it was at 37 the fair, we were in the plaza area, and he was walking and grabbed a brick and came right to 38 me and threw it at my face.  I was able to turn my head and you can see a scar here  it almost 39 hit me on the left eye.  I remember just bleeding and so scared, so I went to my mom and she 40 was like, What happened?  I didnt want to disclose so much details and then she sent my 41 older brother to take me to the hospital.  But yeah, its part of . . . its really messed up that we 42 have to go through that with bullying being such a big issue in our community. 43 
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AJ: And the violence. 45 
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JF: And the violence that we have to face, exactly.  So opening up, hopefully these will educate 1 people that we are entitled to be who we are and its just as normal as anybody else to express 2 these feelings.  Its important for me to open up and share this experience. 3 
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AJ: Im so grateful.  Renata, did you experience any violence or bullying when you were in school? 5 
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RG: Well, back in the 1980s when I was in kindergarten and then in school, bullying was very present 7 the whole time and not only at the school, it was also in the streets and also it was at home with 8 older brothers or whatever.   9 
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AJ: And that was here in Minnesota?  11 
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RG: In Mexico.  But, Im a very, very strong person, at least thats what I believe.  When I was back 13 there, I was very girly  when I was in Mexico.  Super girly.  So for me when someone asks me 14 what age you come out of the closet, I say I never was in the closet, I only was out of the closet.  15 I was very, very girly all the time.  But I was very strong.  I dont know if he has to because my 16 mom, she was working the whole time so she could bring some food to the table, but I learned 17 how to protect myself at an early age and when someone says something, depending on who 18 coming from, I will do something about it  like if it was someone who really cared about me 19 and says something, I probably will be upset.  But if its someone just in the street who called 20 me names  like a faggot or those words that you hear all the time when youre a teen boy or 21 whatever, that never bothered me.  I dont know if its because I wasnt viewed as a faggot or I 22 dont know if it was because the person who said it meant nothing to me.  So, yeah, bullying was 23 present the whole time but to be honest with you guys, it never bothered me at all  to this day, 24 I still . . . I think if you accept people to bullying you, then you will be a victim about it.  But if you 25 picture yourself and you put your courage in front of them, and you show you no fear, they will 26 not do anything to you.  Thats the way I see it. 27 
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AJ: Thats powerful.   29 
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RG: Yeah, and when I say that I am a very strong person, thats what I like to believe.  It doesnt 31 affect me who wants to affect me, so it cant affect me and you cant offend me. 32 
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AJ: I love it.  So you said you were just girly all your life. 34 
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RG: Yes, oh my gosh  super girly.   36 
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AJ: When was the first time that you recognized that you were not the gender you were assigned at 38 birth? 39 
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RG: Well thank you for asking that question because thats really funny.  Like I said, I came from a 41 single mom but I was not living with my mom.  I was living with my grandparents. 42 
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AJ: OK  so a mother and a father . . . I mean, a grandmother and a grandfather. 44 
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RG: Yes, grandparents.  And also my aunts would take care of me.   46 
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AJ: So there were other children from your mothers family there? 48 
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RG: No, I was the only child.  It was my grandparents house, and in Mexico if you are not married, 2 you are allowed to live with your parents.   3 
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AJ: So your aunts were living there? 5 
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RG: Yeah.  My mom, she married to a guy and she moved to the next city and I decide at the age of 7 two . . . I decide at the age of two to stay living with my grandparents and my two aunts.  So, I 8 was in kindergarten when I was two and then I was in pre-school and I was the only one, I was 9 the only child, so I was spoiled all over.  With my grandmother, with my grandfather, with my 10 two aunts, I was super spoiled, super pampered, if I wanted something I get it all the time.  So, 11 how did I know I was not who I think I was?  Well, one day I was . . . I dont know how to say this 12 in English, maybe she can help me.  I was in 1st grade, or elementary school, and I had this really 13 handsome teacher  very handsome.  And I was like, Hmm, I want to kiss him.  At the age of 14 six, can you believe it?  So I was like, I want to kiss him.  And I pretend . . .  15 
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AJ: The teacher? 17 
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RG: The teacher, yes.  So I pretend that my ankle was hurt so he could look at it.  So when he was on 19 his knees, thats when I kissed him. 20 
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AJ: You kissed him? 22 
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RG: Yeah.  And he was like, What are you doing?  Im like . . . now Im laughing, I cant believe I 24 said this, but I said, Im in love with you.  At the age of six.   25 
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AJ: Oh my gosh, Im in love with you. 27 
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RG: Yes.  Thats what I said.  He was really shocked  I mean, six years old and its a boy, a gay boy  29 very girly.  I didnt know I was a gay boy, first of all, and I dont think . . . maybe now they know, 30 but first of all when I was there at six, you dont know internet, you dont know sexual things, 31 you dont know this or . . . I mean, if you go to school they show you, they teach you about 32 sexual things but when you are probably 10 or 11, 12, or 13, not at the age of 6.  So it was a big 33 deal in this school.  So thats what happened.   34 
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AJ: Jennicet, when is the first time you realized you were not the gender you were assigned at 36 birth?   37 
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JG: Again, this is Jennicet speaking, I believe ever since I remember.  I shared my first memory 39 earlier, I think ever since Ive been conscious of my existence Ive always knew that the assigned 40 sex that was given to me didnt connect with my gender identity.  Its been at a very early age.  41 Ive always felt, like Renata was explaining, I think I first had a very strong attraction for the 42 same sex.  And then I started to feel a very strong identification with the opposite sex and I 43 remember being . . . most of the time I would go, also, with my grandparents home because my 44 mom had to work and I would put on my moms dresses or my grandmas dresses and heels and 45 I would run around the house. So I was already starting to connect with my gender identity.  46 Also when I used to see the novellas, the soap operas, or on Sundays there was this show, kind 47 of an entertainment show  music talent show and stuff, and I used to always look at the 48 women singers and always felt this very identification with them and I wanted to express that 1 fully.  My first time I really, really dressed up was probably when I was eight years old.  I went to 2 a neighbors house and they actually put nylons, they put heels, a dress and a wig.  I remember . 3 . . 4 
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AJ: Make-up?  Did you do make-up? 6 
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JG: Yeah.  They did make-up also, and thats when I started to feel that this is really who I am.  I felt 8 very comfortable, I felt this joy and I was extremely happy knowing that for so many other 9 people that was so abnormal or controversial  to me that was very liberating.  They even took a 10 photo and they showed that, I was so happy about it.  They gave me the picture and I showed 11 that photo to an older friend of mine who was open about his sexual orientation and identified 12 as a gay man.  I thought I could share this with him, right?  This very intimate, personal photo.  13 And he turned around and told my sister, so my sister was really upset  14 
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AJ: So he outed you? 16 
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JG: Yeah, and then she told my mom and they were really furious about that, that I dressed up as a 18 woman and I was so young.  They pretty much told me, Dont ever go to the house anymore.  19 Right.   20 
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AJ: But, of course, you went. 22 
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JG: Yeah, of course I went there, I continued to go there and I became really close friends with this 24 kind of housekeeper that used to work at the house, a really good friend of mine.  Ive always 25 felt my brain has always identified with females, Ive always felt as female, I believe that all my 26 thoughts and emotions are more feminine than masculine and thats how I came to terms 27 knowing that I was transgender but obviously it took more time, it took a lot of processing to 28 come into fully living as a woman and thats where I am now. 29 
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AJ: This is Andrea.  Renata, what challenges have you faced since you began to express your true 31 gender identity? 32 
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RG: This is Renata speaking, like I said before I am a very strong person.  So really, I dont want to 34 sound selfish, but theres really no challenge there.   35 
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AJ: Good, thats a beautiful thing. 37 
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RG: I escaped from my home with a . . . I was living with my mom and she was not treating me the 39 way I want to be treated.  Now I understand the way she was, she was a single mom, Mexico is 40 very Catholic . . . 41 
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AJ: Very? 43 
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RG: Catholic. 45 
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AJ: Catholic? 47 
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RG: Yes.  So having a gay boy in a house, especially me very, very super girly, it was . . .  1 
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AJ: It was a hardship. 3 
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RG: It was not an issue for me, but it was an issue for her and for my brothers and my sister.  Not for 5 me.  Now I understand why she was really hard on me and told me bad things and called me bad 6 names and everything.  Now that Im adult I understand that.  That was her way to protect me.  I 7 think she was not the only one, I think a lot of Mexicans moms are the same way.  They dont 8 have the education  obviously if you dont have education, you dont know how to deal with . . 9 . excuse me for this, I dont want to keep saying, gay boy, I want to keep saying, transgender 10 woman.  So they dont know how to deal with a transgender woman, especially when I was 11 that age.  She was mistreating me, she was calling me bad names.  Back at that time I was not 12 very happy about it and then I didnt feel that I belonged to that place.  So I ran away when I was 13 16 and I crossed the border, thats when I crossed the border illegally and came to Minnesota.  14 But yeah, probably that was the big challenge, have someone to helping me to pay my trip to 15 come from Mexico to Minneapolis and other than that its not . . . the big challenge probably has 16 been to try to learn another language and trying to find a job. 17 
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AJ: So the challenge of just being an immigrant.  Thats not necessarily related to your gender 19 identity. 20 
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RG: Exactly.  I always knew who I was, all the time. 22 
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AJ: So do you have more challenges, do you think, as being a brown Latina woman in culture and 24 society than being a trans women?  And thats either one of you. 25 
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RG: Thank you for asking that question, this is Renata speaking again.  Yeah, I would say that its 27 more challenging that I have no documentation and be brown and I speak English.  I can deal 28 with people telling me bad names, like faggot, like queer, or, Are you a man or are you a 29 woman?  I can deal with that but I cannot deal with going somewhere and I apply for a job and 30 say, Oh Im sorry, you dont have a social security, you are not allowed to work.  So for me, yes 31  its more challenging being an immigrant. 32 
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AJ: What do you think, Jennicet? 34 
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JG: This is Jennicet.  I will say as far as with my gender identity, and I identify as a trans woman, one 36 of the biggest challenges I had to face was internal  the psychological, challenging the gender 37 binary.  Coming up, like Renata was sharing, coming up from Mexico, very Catholic, very 38 machismo culture, very traditional in a sense, right?  Like if youre born male youre supposed to 39 grow up and take care of . . . find a girl to marry, take care of her, have children, and continue 40 with the blood  with the last name.  I think thats one of the biggest challenges that I had to 41 face myself first, like knowing that I had to challenge this gender norm and then dealing with the 42 family, dealing with religion, and breaking the stigma and letting them know at the end of the 43 day were all human beings so we deserve to be happy.  So thats just one of the challenges that 44 I had to overcome and once I kind of became, and knew, that I was transgender and started to 45 process, which it could have taken less time, to be honest, and faced the challenges within 46 myself and with the family, with work and all those other things that come once you start . . .  47 
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AJ: So how old were you when you came out? 1 
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JG: To . . .? 3 
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AJ: Yourself  because you said that was the biggest challenge.   5 
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JG: Because of the things that I explained  the stigma, the machismo, the culture, religion, I always 7 internalized things.  So I never formally opened up and came out to them, I think I was forced 8 out through the photo that my friend did, and then in LA one time my brother had a car and I 9 was driving the car and I remember I went out the night before and the tire was really messed 10 up and I put my wig, my heels, everything in the trunk and I was like, Can you fix it?  I was so 11 tired I wanted to go to sleep.  So he comes back within five minutes and hes just like, I just 12 found this in the car, do they belong to you?  I was so kind of embarrassed about it and I just 13 denied it and he continued to pressure me, Its OK if its yours, just tell me the truth.  And he 14 was crying.  So then my mom comes in and, Whats going on?  And I think at that moment is 15 when I said, Yes.  My mom asked me . . .  16 
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AJ: Point blank. 18 
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JG: Yeah, Are you homosexual?  I was like, Yes, I like men, leave me alone, Im so tired.   20 
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RG: I just want to go back to sleep. 22 
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JG: Yes, basically thats what I said, Let me go to sleep.  Letting them know that my sexual 24 orientation was heavily attracted to the same sex and then still kind of dressing up on the 25 weekends but without them really seeing me because I was embarrassed, I was shy, I felt that 26 they didnt support me or that they were . . . I remember also one time I was at the mall with 27 some gay friends and my sister saw me and then she came to the house and she said, Oh, I saw 28 Jennicet out there with some friends, how embarrassing.  What are people going to say?  So 29 you start to kind of . . . all those comments, it kind of drew me back in, like I didnt feel ready to 30 say, Yes! until three years ago.  I just said, I couldnt take it anymore, I feel depressed, Im 31 unhappy, and I just have to live my life authentically and that is as a transgender woman. 32 
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AJ: So youve been openly out as a trans person for the last three years? 34 
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JG: Correct. 36 
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AJ: Whats your relationship with your family now, Jennicet? 38 
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JG: OK, Jennicet speaking, now its more understanding, theyre more supportive.  My brothers and 40 sisters are behind me and they do believe that theyre doing their part to educate themselves on 41 the transgender community on how they can best support me 100%.  I told my mom, my 42 brothers and sisters, they all know and I said, Thats my responsibility, now you have to tell the 43 children  that this is who I am and respect me.   44 
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AJ: So they had work to do, you gave them a job. 46 
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JG: Yeah, so theyre working with that, they seem to be very proud of what I have accomplished in 1 my activism.  The only thing my mom is always concerned, because again I guess she realizes 2 that at one point she didnt understand and she rejected this identity and that other people are 3 going to do the same but theyre going to go over the line and hurt us, because they wont 4 accept it or embrace it. 5 
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AJ: Thats a real fear, right? 7 
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JG: That we can get beat up or even murdered.  She sees the news and sees the violence that we 9 are facing and she gets really in a worry  that now finally I embrace my daughter but I dont 10 want someone else to take her life away.  So thats how I feel.  They are coming around and 11 really . . . I do feel the love now from my mom and my brothers and sisters and I do believe that 12 they support, and mostly importantly, I believe that they are a part of me. 13 
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AJ: Thats awesome.  Is there any relationship between you and your family now, Renata? 15 
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RG: Yes.  This is Renata speaking, and back a little bit where she was saying about her mom worried 17 about she was a parent taken away, thats when I said my mom, back in the time that she was 18 really hard on me and she called me names, she dont know how to deal with me and she dont 19 have to deal with a transgender woman in her house.  So the only way she believes or she thinks 20 she was doing good and the only way she can protect me, as I said, do not act the way you act 21 because people will hurt you in the streets.  So I do now understand that . . . she said it not 22 because she dont love me, I understand that she said it because she wanted to protect me like 23 her mom, that shes worried that shes going to be beaten or shes going to be murdered or 24 shell get taken away for some reason.  So, now I understand.  My relationship with my mom, 25 with my brothers and sisters, my nieces and nephews and uncles  my grandparents, its 26 spectacular, its great. 27 
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AJ: Oh my goodness.   29 
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RG: My nephews call me Auntie and my nieces called me Aunt.  My brothers call me sister and 31 my sisters call me Hermana.  32 
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AJ: What is that? 34 
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RG: Hermana?  Sister.   36 
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AJ: Sister.  Ohhhh. 38 
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RG: Yeah, so she is like my hermana and we talk, we text.  Im very grateful  Im very, very grateful 40 that my family is part of me and by my side all the time.  I just went to my sister-in-law the other 41 day, to her house, and I took Jennicet with me, to eat mole. 42 
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AJ: Ahh, mole  chocolate.   44 
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RG: Yes.  And my niece, shes five, and she called me Aunt, Im her aunt, she never says anything 46 or asks any questions.  My nephew, the one I have . . . one of the olders that are here in 47 Minneapolis, only a couple blocks away from here, he was not home but also he is like, Hi Tia, 1 how are you?  Goodbye Tia, or, Nice to see you Tia.  So its very nice, Im very grateful. 2 
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AJ: It probably helps to get accepted by your family because you guys are both very beautiful so Im 4 sure that plays a role in familys acceptance.  Its sad, but its true.  Im really interested though . 5 . . you guys talked about how family is a really important aspect now of your lives and has 6 played a role, thats why you left home.  Its also now provided the support that helps you get 7 through and I know that the transgender report a couple years ago, Injustice at Every Turn by 8 the National Center for Trans Equality and the Task Force on LGBT Rights, they talked about how 9 family acceptance is really a critical aspect of helping trans identified and gender non-10 conforming people sustain themselves in this culture and society.  Im wondering, what are 11 some of the positive aspects that you have experienced since you have began to express your 12 true gender identity?   13 
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JG: This is Jennicet.  I believe that one of the positives is the re-assurance that we are worthy of 15 living, that we do have the critical support coming.  But that support, it didnt just happen 16 overnight.  It was a process that they had to come to terms.  They already knew I was dressing 17 up but I wasnt facing it with them, so I was rejecting myself and they were rejecting that part of 18 my identity.  It took years, it wasnt just like, Well, OK, you want to be a woman  or you 19 identify as transgender, were behind you.  At first there was some resistance and I think they 20 were mostly concerned with the children, but one of the positive things about this . . . society, in 21 general, attacks children.  What kind of message are we giving the children?  But one of the 22 positive things I remember when I first came to a family reunion for Thanksgiving three years 23 ago as Jennicet and the children were the most receptive of Jennicet.   24 
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AJ: I love it. 26 
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JG: Up to this point they havent mis-gendered me and it is the adults that have an issue, obviously 28 because they knew the other person.  But I think thats one of the most positive things that has 29 come out after we worked it through and me really living my life as a woman and being myself.  30 I think that the children are behind me and, like you mentioned earlier, unfortunately we have 31 to force ourselves sometimes into the gender binary, but we do it because we know how much 32 discrimination exists and we know how much violence there is and thats unfortunate, it 33 shouldnt have to be that way.  If we were in a more safe environment perhaps we wouldnt 34 have to transition all the way, and some dont want to  like gender non-conforming people.  35 But its just that reality that we are facing.  Yeah, now I can honestly say that they are very 36 supportive and it has been . . . its ups and downs, but I remember that my niece said, You 37 know, I am very proud of you and I will love you Tia.  So theyre being very . . . its the younger 38 generation that really are coming to terms with giving that space and the respect that we all 39 deserve.   40 
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AJ: Thats true.  Renata, what are some of the positive things that you have experienced since you 42 began expressing your true gender identity? 43 
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RG: This is Renata speaking again.  Like I said, I was very super girly my whole life.  Im sorry I keep 45 saying that . . .  46 
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AJ: Hey, its who you are Renata.   48 
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RG: You know, I totally understand Jennicet, that she was struggling with coming out or accepting 2 who she was, and I totally understand other people  because shes not the only one who is 3 struggling with that. 4 
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AJ: No. 6 
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RG: But at the end of the day, what I always told people even before they come out to the family but 8 they come out to their friends  like you have friends, Oh, she is Andrea, Im going to talk to 9 her, Or, Hi Jennicet.  You told your friend, I am this, but you didnt tell your family because 10 you have fear, youre shy. 11 
 12 
AJ: You want that love, you dont want to be rejected. 13 
 14 
RG: Exactly.  So what I always told that people is, You know, come here.  So I tell them, and as you 15 can see, I have many mirrors in my place.  So I take them and . . .  16 
 17 
JG: Im counting them. 18 
 19 
AJ: There are lots of mirrors here. 20 
 21 
JG: Im looking around counting them. 22 
 23 
RG: And I take them and I put it there and I say, Who do you see?  I ask them, Who do you see?  24 And theyre like, I see me.  Yes, but who do you really see there?  And theyre like, I dont 25 see anything else.  OK, well then, nobody else will see anything else then.  If you see yourself 26 as a transgender woman and you accept it that youre a transgender woman, other people will 27 too.  Because at the end of the day, thats the only thing that youre waiting for  they knew 28 you are, they totally knew you are and probably they knew you were dressing up the night 29 before when you go out to the club because had to steal the eyeliner here and they knew you 30 dress up but maybe sometimes they dont want to say anything because they dont want to hurt 31 you or they dont want to make you uncomfortable.  Theyre waiting for you to open up with 32 them so they can say, We knew that, thats OK.  Thats happened.  So if you dont accept 33 yourself you never will be accepted by anybody else.  34 
 35 
AJ: Oh my goodness, so powerful. 36 
 37 
RG: Exactly.  At the end of the day, I think the challenge of positive things being who I am is that I 38 can help others to be who they are.   39 
 40 
AJ: Oh wow, I love it.  Man  talk about activism.  Jennicet, you made history earlier this year during 41 Gay History Month  like Pride Month.  You were invited to the White House as a part of the 42 LGBT celebration gala . . . reception, is what they called it, right? 43 
 44 
JG: Yes. 45 
 46 
AJ: At the White House and everybody was there in their finery and great mood, the President was 47 serving snacks and cocktails  beer and wine, I assume, but it looked like people were having a 48 good time.  He was there with the Vice President and Im sure a lot of Secret Service people.  1 You interrupted his speech and you talked about the plight of undocumented immigrants of 2 transgender experience being held at detention centers.  A lot of people were upset that you did 3 that.  Talk to me about that moment, that moment that you felt compelled . . . I think, at least 4 thats how it sounded, because you were persistent, respectful  but very persistent in your 5 questioning.  Tell us about that.   6 
 7 
JG: This is Jennicet.  Again, I came out as a trans woman three years ago.  I went into activism 8 November of 2014, that was my very first direct participation in the community and saying, 9 This is what I want to do.  I was finding myself, finding my voice, and finding my passion.  So 10 being involved in different demonstrations throughout LA, mostly to raise awareness of the 11 violence that we are facing as a transgender community in the United States.  But then a 12 reporter asked me, with the interruption, what of the two identities do you make a priority?  Is 13 it the transgender or the undocumented aspect?  And I was like, You know, I dont think I can 14 prioritize one or the other, to me they intersect and they are part of who I am as a person and 15 they both equally should be balanced. Yeah, being undocumented, its completely new 16 challenges that we face in this country, like Renata was saying - the lack of social security or the 17 lack of work employment.  So now were looking at the transgender identity and in our 18 countries its not as open as it has become here in the U.S. now, so were facing a lot of violence.  19 So what do we do?  We flee to come to the U.S., to seek political asylum, and then what 20 happens?  We get turned over to the detention centers and this is an issue that our 21 organization, FAMILIA Trans Queer Liberation Movement, has been working for the last three 22 years or so . . . maybe two or three.   23 
 24 
AJ: Trans Latina . . .? 25 
 26 
JG: Its FAMILIA Trans Queer Liberation Movement. 27 
 28 
AJ: Wow, OK.  Thank you for slowing that down a little bit because my transcriber has to catch all of 29 this. 30 
 31 
JG: So basically being active in the community, it kind of earned me the ticket to go to the White 32 House. 33 
 34 
AJ: Yeah, you worked for it. 35 
 36 
JG: Like you mentioned, its Pride Month throughout the nation, different cities celebrate Pride 37 events and that celebration, its because a transgender women of color and gender non-38 conforming people in 1969 in New York City, they say we cant take any more of the treatment 39 that the police brutality was giving us, so that celebration came because people were sending a 40 message to the state that were not going to tolerate any kind of state-sanctioned violence.  So 41 just being in that moment, to me, and then knowing that undocumented LGBTQ trans and queer 42 people, immigrants, are in these detention centers facing a lot of abuse by immigration officials 43 and by other people detained.  So knowing about the issue, talking to trans women who were in 44 there and sharing their stories, their experiences, FAMILIA got behind Nicoll, which Free Nicoll 45 became probably one of the first national campaigns that started to bring awareness at a 46 national level.  When I heard of her case and how difficult she was treated, I just . . . when I was 47 in this room, I just knew that I couldnt celebrate while our brothers and sisters are suffering.  So 48 we need that space . . . yeah, its very intimidating knowing that there are other activists, 1 organizers  pretty much the elite, you could say the mainstream LGBTQ and everyone is so 2 happy, lets talk about progress, Were making so much progress in our movement, in our 3 struggles basically.  But, to me, I just kept thinking about my own personal challenges as 4 undocumented and what if I end up in a detention center, right?  Theyre going to put me 5 through this abuse that shouldnt be accepted by anyone, its inhumane the conditions that are 6 faced inside these detention centers.  So to me that was a moment that I had to speak up and 7 when President Obama came out, I guess, and started greeting everyone and within a minute of 8 the introduction, he just continued to praise the community and how much progress were 9 making and I was like, How can we really celebrate and speak of progress when the ones that 10 really want the progress are suffering?  So, to me, that was a moment to say, President 11 Obama, release all LGBTQ detainees in detention centers. But not only that, I was also telling 12 President Obama that I was tired of the violence that were facing as a transgender community, 13 Im tired of the transphobia, Im tired of the violence in general.   14 
 15 
AJ: Sure. 16 
 17 
JG: I was criticized harshly the first two days for being disrespectful, how dare I do that to the 18 President at the White House?  And I think the interesting part of it was because the marriage 19 decision was coming out and people were just like, Oh, yes, hes going to praise maybe . . . 20 
 21 
AJ: It was the very next day, right? 22 
 23 
JG: Maybe anticipate what the outcome might be, people were like in this celebration mood and I 24 was like, How can we do that?  So to me, it was critical and it was highly necessary to interrupt 25 the President to bring this issue to the front lines, that our community is facing as we speak and 26 some are inside these detention centers. 27 
 28 
AJ: Being President is a pretty tough job and you know going in that youre going to get a lot of 29 criticism from people every day, all day  from the left, the right, from the people in the middle, 30 every decision is going to be questioned and youre going to get called on it.  Renata, youre 31 quite an activist yourself, what sort of organizations, what issues, what concerns, what work are 32 you doing to sort of promote transgender equality.   33 
 34 
RG: Hello, this is Renata speaking again.  To tell you the truth, Andrea, and to be honest with myself, 35 I think I can call myself an activist but I havent done anything as an activist. 36 
 37 
AJ: OK.  I disagree with that but Im just going to listen. 38 
 39 
RG: Thats what I believe.  I dont know if you . . . you have done an amazing job as an activist with 40 the Black Lives Matter and Bamby Salcedo is being recognized all over for her job and 41 everything.  And I think you guys are here and Im here, I dont think I have . . . I do care about 42 my people, I do care about . . . I dont want them to hurt and I want them to be OK, but I dont 43 think Ive done anything, to be honest, as an activist person.  I dont know if its because I dont 44 have the tools to do that.  I dont know . . . well, I know you, but we never had the opportunity 45 to see and talk and see about what can we do for the transgender community in Minneapolis.  46 The only reason I can call myself activist is because I care about other people, not just 47 transgender people, just people in general. 48 
 1 
AJ: People in general, absolutely.  Im a humanist but this is not about me, this is about you guys. 2 
 3 
JG: Im going to interrupt Renata and jump in.   4 
 5 
RG: How dare you. 6 
 7 
JG: This is Jennicet.  I do believe that she is an activist and she has done stuff for the community.   8 
 9 
AJ: Absolutely. 10 
 11 
JG: I met her through Bamby and she is a member of Trans Latina Coalition, founded by Bamby.  She 12 has been involved in creating the calendar, Creating Change . . . Angels of Change.  Shes been 13 involved, like reaching out and participating.  Theres another event called Garras, kind of like 14 wardrobe, it is like a fashion show that we raise funds for the community. 15 
 16 
AJ: Whats it called?  Im sorry. 17 
 18 
JG: G-a-r-r-a-s.  Its an annual event, its a fundraiser, where Bamby organizes and brings different 19 designers with the LGBTQ community, mostly Latino/Latinas and they bring the models, mostly 20 trans people, and the funds are for their organization.  So shes been involved.  And then when 21 Casey Haggard was murdered in Fresno a couple of months ago, she was at the gathering that 22 Bamby put together for the organization and we had a demonstration.  We blocked the 23 intersections and she was taking photos.   24 
 25 
AJ: In Fresno? 26 
 27 
JG: No, in LA.  Casey Haggard was murdered in Fresno by a driver . . . cut her throat, its on video  28 its horrible.  But she was there taking photos, so perhaps . . .  29 
 30 
AJ: So was that . . . oh she was the 19th trans person . . .  31 
 32 
JG: I believe the 19th this year alone. 33 
 34 
AJ: Yes, I remember reading about this story and watching  yes. 35 
 36 
JG: But Renata was taking photos, she was chanting with us and blocking the intersection.  So 37 maybe comparing yourself with others it wasnt the best thing to do but you are doing your 38 work.   39 
 40 
AJ: Well I know she is, which is why I asked.   41 
 42 
JG: You are doing important work and any kind of little contribution to the movement  you are.   43 
 44 
AJ: Let me just say that walking down the street every day and living your life as an out trans 45 women of color is a political act and it is an act of activism, taking care of yourself is a 46 revolutionary act, being alive and being active in this community is advocacy.  So thank you, 47 Renata. 48 
 1 
RG: Oh, thank you, thank you for pointing that out.  Once again, this is Renata speaking.  Once again 2 maybe I am a transgender woman but in my unconscious, Im not a transgender woman. 3 
 4 
AJ: I understand, I hear you, I believe you.   5 
 6 
RG: I take Jennicet downtown and I show her where I work and I show her the skyways and this is 7 where I have coffee and this is where I have breakfast and this and that.  Maybe I feel selfish but 8 I am not consider myself with . . . with the sociology, I do not consider myself as a transgender 9 woman.  I live myself 24/7 as just another female, as a woman.  So, the way you said it is really 10 nice and now that I realize that, Oh my God, totally, its true.  It is.  But Im so used to things . . 11 . back in my early days they always said, Maam, can I help you with this?  Maam, can I take 12 your order?  Have a nice day, thank you maam.  Im so used to that.  Sometimes, just in 13 those moments, I forgot who I am as a transgender woman and I just become as a female, 14 another real woman.   15 
 16 
AJ: Youre Renata. 17 
 18 
RG: Exactly.  Yeah, I have done things like Jennicet mentioned and Im sure you know some other 19 things, but I havent done anything to do history like her, like Bamby, like other transgender 20 women in the world.  And I want to be one of those persons.   21 
 22 
AJ: You are, darling.   23 
 24 
RG: I want to be one of those persons who really make change, who really . . . its huge to compare 25 myself to him, but Luther King, for example. 26 
 27 
AJ: Which one? 28 
 29 
RG: Luther King. 30 
 31 
AJ: Martin Luther King? 32 
 33 
RG: Martin Luther King. 34 
 35 
AJ: OK.   36 
 37 
RG: He really made history, hes in the history in the United States forever.  We have a day to 38 remember him all the time, every year.  I want to do something that big.  The things I have done, 39 yeah theyre important and maybe its my little granito to contribute to the community, but I 40 want more.   41 
 42 
AJ: Renata, to the extent that you feel comfortable, tell me about any medical interventions that 43 you have undergone during your gender transition. 44 
 45 
RG: Well I have done a couple things.  One is obviously my breasts . . .  46 
 47 
AJ: Obviously . . . 48 
 1 
RG: Its not obvious? 2 
 3 
AJ: How obvious is it? 4 
 5 
RG: Is not 36C enough?  But also, another couple of things I have done with my body that Im not 6 proud and Im not very happy about and I want to talk to you in private.  But thats the only two 7 things that I have done on my body  surgery to be more female, to go more with my 8 completion to be more physically accepted. 9 
 10 
AJ: So no medical prescribed hormones or . . . ? 11 
 12 
RG: Oh yeah, yeah.  I thought you said plastic surgeries. 13 
 14 
AJ: Well medical interventions  the doctor gives you hormones, thats a medical . . .  15 
 16 
RG: I have been doing hormones for a while.  I stopped it for a while.  The last hormones I took was 17 probably 2008 and I didnt take hormones for years until recently, like six months ago.   18 
 19 
AJ: What made you stop?  Im interested because . . .  20 
 21 
RG: OK, I knew a girl from Los Angeles, I met her in New York in an interview too.  We became very 22 good friends and she introduced me to this doctor in LA.  And she explained me the hormones, 23 the treatment he was doing to her.  I was amazed about it.  I was like, Wow, I want that.  24 
 25 
AJ: You were excited. 26 
 27 
RG: I was very excited.  The process of the treatment is two years and he said after you take that 28 treatment for two years, every four months, you are technically OK to not take hormones any 29 more but you can do every year.  So go back to LA for two years every four months is really 30 expensive. 31 
 32 
AJ: Yes. 33 
 34 
RG: So when I was done with my two years treatment, I said, Well he said I dont need it, if I want 35 to I can come back every year, but I dont have the money to do that because its kind of 36 expensive.  So that was the reason to stop.  But now I have a chance to go back for some 37 events for the Coalition, Im a part of it now, and I said, Well, since Im going there and hes 38 there . . . 39 
 40 
AJ: You might get more treatments. 41 
 42 
RG: Well, why not  to be more female.   43 
 44 
AJ: Jennicet, to the extent that you feel comfortable, if you dont want to say anything and be like, 45 Move on to the next question, Andrea, have you experienced any medical interventions 46 during your transition? 47 
 48 
JG: This is Jennicet, and yes I have.  But before disclosing what I have done I do want to point out a 1 critical issue that I believe that you need to listen.  When I started to transition, I was obviously 2 meeting other trans women in Los Angeles, and then you know desperately that you want to 3 start hormone treatment. 4 
 5 
AJ: Because the women in Los Angeles are just drop-dead gorgeous. 6 
 7 
JG: Yeah, theyre beautiful. 8 
 9 
AJ: Hips and cheekbones and . . .  10 
 11 
JG: I think were all beautiful to be honest.  But, yeah . . .  12 
 13 
AJ: But LA is hip level, lets get real here.  All women, period, in Los Angeles there is a standard that 14 people live by.   15 
 16 
JG: Yeah, I saw that beauty and I always wanted to emulate them and be like them.  So you start 17 talking to them and they tell you . . . its kind of like an underground kind of deal because, like 18 she said, its expensive and many of us, as being undocumented, dont have access to health 19 care, dont have access to a physician, and its very rare to find a physician that really 20 understands the transgender community and can give you the proper medication to start, right?  21 So, I started to ask around and then theyre like, Oh, you can go to this lady and shell give you 22 medication.  So thats how I started taking hormones.  And I would do it . . . I was kind of at 23 home taking it and I remember people telling me, Take it with milk too.  Like this Mexican 24 hormone, Oh, this one is better.  If you take it with milk you get breasts faster.  Things like 25 that. 26 
 27 
AJ: Was it true?  Did it work?   28 
 29 
JG: Yes, it did.  And then you start to see results and then you started to feel more identified, finally 30 connecting yourself with your identity, and you continue to take hormones and injections once a 31 month.  You have to find your way and connect with someone who has done it longer.  So I 32 started that and then also I did my breast augmentation.  I did my hairline, lowered it . . . yeah.  I 33 havent been on hormones for a while but because I was in LA I was going to this clinic that all 34 you had to prove, kind of where you lived, and any kind of income that you were bringing and if 35 you earned X amount you were qualified to receive under a medical physicians supervision.  But 36 because the funds were so limited, you kind of had to prove like your social security to make 37 sure you continue on the program for free, otherwise you were not getting for free and then 38 you had to pay out of pocket.  So, I stopped for awhile and my mom went to Tijuana not too 39 long ago and she brought me some, she brought the injections and also pills.  40 
 41 
AJ: Tijuana. 42 
 43 
JG: Yeah.  I have some that Ill start taking them soon.  But thats pretty much where Im at at the 44 moment.   45 
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AJ: What do you guys think about . . . I know Los Angeles, and I know you spent a lot of time in Los 47 Angeles, Renata, and you live there, Jennicet.  So, like street hormones  thats a part of the 48 everyday life of trans women in America, but in Los Angeles.  Are you guys aware of this issue 1 where people are having injections of illegal hormones or unsafe hormones?  What do you think 2 about that issue? 3 
 4 
RG: This is Renata speaking, and my personal experience . . . I dont want to hold back, but those 5 street hormones, like Jennicet said earlier, underground hormones, thats where . . . I dont 6 know about the other communities, but the Latino communities theyre like, like what she was 7 saying, Oh this is better, this is where this or this is where that.  I took those a couple months 8 but they were not working for me, not because they were not doing anything physically, they 9 were doing something mentally. 10 
 11 
AJ: Emotionally. 12 
 13 
RG: Emotionally  Im sorry, yes. 14 
 15 
AJ: Well, mentally but emotionally. 16 
 17 
RG: Emotionally.  So I stopped taking those and thats when I met this girl and I went to Los Angeles 18 with the doctor and the hormones that Im taking for him, theyre amazing.  There is no 19 emotional . . . with the street hormones, sometimes people will get depressed and sometimes 20 people eat too much, some people will be so crabby all the time.  You cannot say any jokes 21 because theyre like, Arrrr.  Theyre really crabby all the time.  So that affect you emotionally, 22 so that was the real reason I would not recommend those.  But the ones that Im taking from LA 23 from this doctor, oh my God  amazing.  Amazing, amazing, amazing.   24 
 25 
AJ: Wow.  Thank you both for your honesty around that question.  I just want to be real clear, being 26 trans is not dictated by the medical interventions that weve had, right?  I understand that, but it 27 is a part of being trans.  I think its an important question, its a question that a lot of people get 28 offended by or want to gloss over, but . . . thanks for your honesty. 29 
 30 
JG: This is Jennicet.  I agree with you, it shouldnt determine your trans identity, right?  But it is part 31 of the process, its part of the transition, and like we were explaining its a reality for many in the 32 trans Latinas who lack access to a physician so you have to start asking other girls and theyre 33 like, Oh, you can go with this person and get some, or, I can get some for you and you take 34 them like this.  So you dont really have the supervision, so it is a serial issue.  I currently dont 35 know how many in LA are doing it that way, but I know there is a good number of them and I 36 just wanted to bring it out so your audience knows that this is something that we are facing.   37 
 38 
AJ: Yeah, girls are dying from that.   39 
 40 
RG: This is Renata speaking once again.  I told you earlier I would like to speak with your privately 41 about something, but girls are not dying for hormones, girls are dying for injections . . . its 42 supposed to be something really good to make your hips up and your butt up and look more 43 girly.  Theyre not hormones . . . I dont know . . . 44 
 45 
AJ: Silicone.   46 
 47 
JG: Silicone injections. 48 
 1 
RG: Its supposed to be silicone injections but the person who is doing it, that person dont care 2 about you.   3 
 4 
AJ: Right. 5 
 6 
RG: That person only cares about the money you are going to pay for that.  So she said, Its really 7 good, Ive done whoevers . . . I done Jennicets body, I done Andreas body, I done Jennifer 8 Lopez body and it works.  Its really good.  It cost this.  So you believe that person because you 9 are so hungry to have a female body and you believe that person.  But whatever shes injecting 10 you, its not silicone, thats for sure.  And thats the reason a lot of us are dying, not the 11 hormones. 12 
 13 
AJ: Not the hormones, youre right.  I mis-stated that.   14 
 15 
RG: The hormones dont really kill you, like I said they make you crabby or angry or hungry  I dont 16 know what other, oh you get fat, I guess.  But theyre . . . 17 
 18 
AJ: Crying all the time. 19 
 20 
RG: Crying all the time  yes.  Oh my gosh, a fly is dying.   21 
 22 
AJ: Its true. 23 
 24 
RG: Yes, girls are dying for other . . . how can I say this?  Bad decisions.  Girls, we are dying for bad 25 decisions and because we are not informed  thats the reason.  Yeah, maybe she done 26 something like silicone injections and its great, but that is not going to be the same for you 27 because everybody is different.   28 
 29 
AJ: Sure. 30 
 31 
RG: So whatever your body can accept, we have different genes, its not going to accept for me the 32 same. 33 
 34 
AJ: Im just now noticing your earrings, those are stunning. 35 
 36 
RG: Oh thank you  you have good taste. 37 
 38 
AJ: You just pulled your hair back and they just popped out  like whoa! 39 
 40 
RG: Thank you, Andrea. 41 
 42 
AJ: Just beautiful.  So, you guys both talked about a really influential person in this transgender 43 movement that is really doing just powerful and outstanding work, but Im going to ask you this 44 question anyway.  Has there been a specific moment, person, organization that has had a 45 significant impact on you related to your gender identity? 46 
 47 
JG: This is Jennicet.  For me, personally, I want to probably give credit to the organization Im part 1 of, FAMILIA Trans Queer Liberation Movement, because I believe they gave me the opportunity 2 to every struggle that I was holding inside me, everything I internalized, and that I was carrying, 3 that I was so ashamed of  being trans, being undocumented.  I think they saw something in me 4 and believed in me and I think Jorge Gutierrez, who is the founder with Isa Noyola, another 5 amazing activist. 6 
 7 
AJ: Jorge . . . ?   8 
 9 
JG: Gutierrez and then Isa Noyola, another amazing activist from the Bay area.  I think that was 10 definitely . . .  11 
 12 
AJ: How do you spell Isas last name? 13 
 14 
JG: Its N-o-y-o-l-a.  And I think they really got me out of my comfort zone in a sense of who I am 15 and what makes Jennicet the person she is now.  And part of that was the opportunity to going 16 to the White House with GetEQUAL, another organization.  And I also want to thank personally, 17 Angela Peoples, who she works for GetEQUAL, because she was the only soul voice in this action 18 that she joined me as I was being escorted out.  So I think, again going . . .  19 
 20 
AJ: Angela Peoples? 21 
 22 
JG: Right.  Shes in DC and she works with GetEQUAL.  I think that moment at the White House is 23 when I really embraced fully who I am as a person, I embraced fully myself as a human being, 24 and I think by challenging President Obama I regained the dignity of my community. 25 
 26 
AJ: Wow, thats awesome.  Love and relationships. 27 
 28 
RG: What else, right?   29 
 30 
AJ: Are you in a relationship right now, Renata? 31 
 32 
RG: No.  This is Renata speaking and Im single.  Im not planning to get married or have a baby for a 33 while, so if any guys are seeing this . . . Im single.  Shes married though.  No, just kidding.   34 
 35 
AJ: Whats your sexual orientation? 36 
 37 
RG: My sexual orientation is straight  transgender woman, straight.  I like guys, preferably tall, 38 masculine, white guys  hairy ones will be welcome.  Thats my sexual orientation. 39 
 40 
AJ: All right.  Thats cool.  Have you been in a relationship, Renata?   41 
 42 
RG: There have been very few.  One last for about eight years and the other . . .  43 
 44 
AJ: Eight years? 45 
 46 
RG: Eight years, and were still talking, were friends.  Hes married now.  The other one was . . . at 1 the end it was not really good, it ended up messy and kind of bad.  But theyre still good people, 2 I talk to them.   3 
 4 
AJ: Good.  Jennicet?   5 
 6 
JG: Yes. 7 
 8 
AJ: Yes . . . yes, to everything.   9 
 10 
JG: Yes Andrea.   11 
 12 
RG: Im going to . . . if you notice, she was like all the time saying, Oh, Jennicet speaking, and then 13 shed give the speech.  You ask what the relationship is like and she forgot about Jennicet this . . 14 . she was like, Yes.  15 
 16 
JG: Good observation.  No, this is Jennicet.   17 
 18 
RG: See, now shes going back.   19 
 20 
JG: Im currently dating my partner, weve been together for a few months.  We met a little over a 21 year ago on Facebook and he is an activist.  We both seem to find a connection that were 22 getting to know each other.  Its a little challenging because its a long distance relationship, but 23 we are finding ways to make it work.  I consider my sexual orientation, I would say, is 24 heterosexual and Im attracted to men.   25 
 26 
RG: But thats not what you told me earlier, girl.  Im just kidding  sorry! 27 
 28 
JG: No, but I mean its just the beauty . . . I think this is one topic that is so important that we, as a 29 community, discuss, that we are worthy of being in a relationship and we are worthy of loving 30 someone and that someone loving us back.   31 
 32 
AJ: Right. 33 
 34 
JG: Because many times we are told we are never going to find anybody, nobody is going to really 35 be embracing of who we are as a woman of trans experience, that were meant to be alone for 36 the rest of our lives.  And thats one of the things that my partner is kind of working and 37 organizing his community of men who are attracted to trans women.   38 
 39 
AJ: Oh really?  My friend, Tona Brown, is trying to put together a panel about men of trans attracted 40 experience she calls them. 41 
 42 
JG: Maybe we should connect them, or maybe they already were part of . . . 43 
 44 
AJ: Hes in Chicago?  Whats his . . . well maybe dont tell me. 45 
 46 
JG: Ill give you his information.  I will, but I believe that it is so important for us to have this 47 discussion.  I think one of the things as a community we overly emphasize in the struggles and 48 the challenges and the violence so much, and there is this piece that is missing in the 1 conversations.   2 
 3 
AJ: Well I think a part of . . . OK, this is my opinion.   4 
 5 
JG: Yes. 6 
 7 
AJ: Some of the violence that we experience, a lot of the violence that we experience, comes from 8 these trans attracted men. 9 
 10 
JG: I agree, I agree.  And thats why its important for your friend that you mentioned and my 11 partner to counter that and kind of deke why is it that that is happening.  And know that we are 12 again worthy of loving someone and someone loving us back.  Its work to be done but I can only 13 say that I am happy to be in the relationship and I will continue to open my heart up and take 14 risks. 15 
 16 
AJ: Wonderful.  Love is a beautiful thing. 17 
 18 
RG: This is Renata speaking.  Every time we talk about relationships and every time a guy 19 approaches you and he is attracted to you and he wants to do something with you, and he said 20 this and he said that and that, I dont know how to explain it but most of the guys up there, 21 theyre really insecure about being in a relationship with a t-girl.  One of the huge reasons is the 22 family, the friends, theyre . . . maybe its like a guy deal with . . . and Im sorry if I put you as 23 simple, but extremely . . . like you, if you were in a closet and then you come out, maybe its 24 kind of something for them to struggle with and deal with and hard to accept to who they are 25 and who they want to be with.  But at the end of the day, they are the ones to deal with.  If you 26 are attracted to me and you have those issues, at the end of the day its your problem, its not 27 my problem.  I deal a long time ago with my . . . 28 
 29 
AJ: I deal, right. 30 
 31 
RG: Exactly. 32 
 33 
AJ: So do your work guys.   34 
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RG: Exactly.  Do your work.  Is it really worth it?  Not really take care, but is it really worth it to put 36 them over your family or your friends, first then you  who you want and who you desire first? 37 
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AJ: Right. 39 
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RG: Because when I was dealing with my issues that, once again, I do believe I never have anyone, I 41 was like, This is who I am and if you dont want me or you dont accept me, its too bad for you, 42 or its too bad for you guys  but this is who I am.  Thanks, God.  At the end of the day, like 43 now, Im very happy and like her I have very supportive family, very great friends, and if you 44 want to be with a transgender . . . I dont say necessarily you want to be with me, but if you 45 want to be with another transgender woman, you have to be the one to deal with it.   46 
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AJ: Wow, powerful answers.  You guys are so amazing.  I love this interview.  What do you think 1 about Caitlyn?  Shes one word now  one name. 2 
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RG: I dont know if you will love it or hate it to say this on camera . . .  4 
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AJ: Just say whatever you think.   6 
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RG: OK.  In my own words, and Im speaking for myself the way I see things, and I dont know 8 because I think that I have a sixth sense, Im rarely wrong most of the times, but I think she is a 9 joke. She is not a joke for us, for the transgender community, because once again I do not 10 consider myself a transgender  thats who I am, but Im not going to sit there every day the way 11 I live my life as a transgender woman.  I think she is a joke for herself, thats what I believe.  And 12 if you, Caitlyn, happen to see this once  or ever, Im sorry.  And if you want to ask me why I do 13 believe that, please contact me  this is Renata Garcia and you can find me on Facebook.  Im 14 sorry.  I think . . .  15 
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AJ: Why do you say she is a joke?  Why?  Im OK with your answer, just what are you basing that 17 on?  Its hard to . . . youve been a woman all your life, so its been a little easier for you  no 18 challenges, but for some people, man, and clearly for this woman, she waited until she was 65 19 years old  thats a lot of pain to bottle up inside. 20 
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RG: Why do you wait until 65?  That would be my first question.   22 
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AJ: Its scary, Renata  its scary girl. 24 
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RG: I dont want to judge her, to be honest with you, and if I say something I feel like Im judging her 26 and Im nobody to judge anybody. 27 
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AJ: Im just asking.  I mean . . . Im going to leave it at what you said and Im certainly not trying to 29 defend her.  I just want to hear you guys opinion. 30 
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RG: Talking about her, Im sorry this is Renata speaking once again, it would be a lot of hours of 32 video, I guess.  And to be honest with you, I dont know who she was.  I didnt know she had this 33 medal, gold medal.  I didnt know that. 34 
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AJ: You didnt know about the Olympics. 36 
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RG: I didnt know she was part of the Kardashians.  I dont know anything about that, to be honest 38 with you.  I heard about her when she was . . . before coming out . . . what is her name? 39 
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AJ: Caitlyn. 41 
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RG: Caitlyn.  They were talking in the media and on TV shows about . . . and then Im sort of like, 43 Oh, OK and then two weeks later she was completely a woman.   44 
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AJ: I know. 46 
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RG: To be honest with you Andrea, I dont want to judge her because Im nobody to judge anybody.  1 In one word, what I believe and what I think of who she is, Im sorry to say that but yeah, I think 2 shes a joke.   3 
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AJ: OK.  What do you think, Jennicet? 5 
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JG: This is Jennicet.  Do we really need to talk about her?   7 
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RG: Shes being more kindly. 9 
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JG: Im just listening.  No, in all honestly I embraced her as a trans woman, I am a trans woman it 11 would be very hypocritical or I would be stabbing myself if I kind of reject her and things like 12 that.  But I do believe that I, Jennicet, as an activist and as a organizer with my organization and 13 as a trans woman, I dont represent the community.  Thats what becomes a little problematic 14 for me because now all of a sudden she has a huge platform and people . . . which could be a 15 good thing, right?  But then people start drawing generalizations and believe that she represents 16 the entire community. 17 
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RG: And she does not. 19 
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JG: Yeah, and I dont represent.  I speak for my own experience, and she can speak for her own 21 experience, but obviously there is a huge bridge between us, right?  Her coming from whatever 22 her journey is to get to the point where she is, its a huge difference from my own personal 23 experience.  I just dont want to spend so much time on her life because I believe that we have 24 so many more serious issues that we have to discuss.  We are fighting to survive and she will 25 never have to worry about that because she is well off and we arent.  So to me its just like . . . 26 can we just . . . know that shes part of the community, that she has acknowledged her privilege 27 and things like that, but it seems to me, like Renata mentioned, knowing that shes part of the 28 Kardashians and people already love them or hate them, its like a business family, its an 29 entertainment family  our lives are not entertainment, for nobodys pleasure.  We are fighting 30 for our lives, this is serious life and death situations were dealing with. 31 
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AJ: Absolutely. 33 
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JG: Thats all I want to say. 35 
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AJ: OK.  You know, Jennicet you brought up some of the real issues that, particularly trans women 37 of color  Latina, African American, Asian-Pacific Islander women face, Native American women 38 in coming out, issues around homelessness and educational opportunities, employment 39 opportunities, all of these things that are huge barriers for people.  Can you talk about that?  40 And maybe whats the relationship to those issues and some of the violence that trans women 41 of color are experiencing, in your opinion? 42 
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JG: Yes.  This is Jennicet.  In my opinion, the violence that we face if we dont have access to, first, 44 the very foundation of the family support, I think it kind of contributes to the violence.  I think 45 that Renata and I express a lot of very supportive families now in our lives, but then we also 46 have to acknowledge the reality for many of our sisters whose families completely wont give 47 them a chance to lead their lives openly and they just turn their backs on them and kick them 48 out of the house and will never reconcile with them for the rest of their lives.  Its a reality that 1 happens to some of us, or maybe many of us.  And, once we get out on the street and struggling 2 to survive and dont have access to unemployment because of discrimination, like myself 3 because of the lack of documentation to be able to contribute to society, which basically doesnt 4 provide an income, doesnt provide health insurance, so these are challenges that we have to 5 rely on sometimes, like we discussed earlier, these men who seem to be attracted to us but then 6 turn around and hurt us. 7 
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AJ: Right. 9 
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JG: And that results in violence against us.  So, I think those are the really hard, difficult issues that 11 we have to really focusing on and shift things around.  Like going back to the interruption, I 12 didnt think it was all about me or Jennicet and how am I going to personally benefit.  I think this 13 is about a community that, for many years, has been told to shut up basically, Whatever issues 14 youre dealing with, youre in this country without any documentation, you have no voice in the 15 discussions.  So, its a real challenge  its a real challenge and thats why myself, coming in and 16 really challenging the system here, Im put in a position where I am learning so much myself and 17 finding more ways how can I connect with my community, how can I reach out and truly make a 18 difference in our lives and move on. Like I was mentioning at a panel last week, I am beyond 19 how we have sex behind doors, I am beyond whats between our legs.  Here we are talking 20 about real challenges that were facing and those challenges, for many of us, could be life or 21 death. 22 
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AJ: What do you guys think about the relationship between the L, the G, the B, and the T? 24 
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RG: Im sorry, can you repeat that question please? 26 
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AJ: Sure.  What do you think the relationship is between the T and the rest of the LGB community?  28 So the gays, the lesbians, the bisexuals?  Is there a relationship with the T?  Does that whole 29 thing belong together?  Or is it a forced marriage?  Rocky marriage?  What are your thoughts 30 about that?   31 
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JG: This is Jennicet.  I believe that the T has always faced so many challenges within the rest of the 33 group  the L, the B, the G, right?   34 
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AJ: Yes. 36 
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JG: And I think someone had a video of Sylvia Rivera in 1969, when she went to this Pride event, 38 took on the stage and she was booed, she was silenced, and then here 40 years later, here is a 39 trans woman of color with this group of people that are part of the community.  I think that one 40 moment, those two minutes of the interruption took place, it kind of demonstrated the division 41 that exists and with our community, the trans community.  I think there was an issue of . . . I 42 could potentially say racism, there was an issue of classism, there was an issue of patriarchism.  43 So I think that moment unearthed more things for the community to really, Hmmm, whats 44 really happening here?  Are we really part of the T, are we behind them?  Are we going to 45 prioritize other issues that are going to benefit just a few and everybody else can find their 46 way?  And if that is it, we are lucky to survive because . . . you know.  I believe that we do have 47 a serial issue there and some people have even started to say that the T needs to be moved.  We 48 have to organize ourselves because obviously they are not listening to us.  That was very clearly 1 shown in the video where theyre just trying to boot me and thats a sad reality because I 2 believe that in order for us, as a community, that we are so marginalized and oppressed, if we 3 leave the most marginalized and the most oppressed behind then what kind of progress as we 4 celebrating?  So, there. 5 
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AJ: Its interesting that two Latina sisters sort of have this parallel struggle, if you will, some 40 years 7 apart.  Thats very, very fascinating. 8 
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RG: Hello, this is Renata.  Back to the question, you know sometimes, and this answer has nothing to 10 do with your question, but I think its that simple about what I want to try to say.  Some people 11 said  or some transgender woman said, Oh, Im having a boyfriend and he want to date me 12 and he want to marry me.  And sometimes we said, as Latinas, we said . . . and this transgender 13 woman said, Oh, I have this boyfriend and he never cheated on me and this and that.  And it 14 happens to be that the guy is married and he is cheating the girl he is married.  If he is cheating 15 on who he is married, he promise to God  to the ears of God, that he is going to be loyal his 16 whole life, he is cheating with you, what do you expect?  So back to the question you were 17 asking about the GTB, at the end of the day we are all human beings and sometimes between 18 straight people or heterosexual people, sometimes they are killing each other.  What do you 19 expect being a transgender woman?  Or being a lesbian woman?   20 
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AJ: So thats just kind of the way it is? 22 
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RG: Exactly.  Totally.  So, yeah, back to what I was saying earlier, in my own experience I know some 24 transgender woman had to face discrimination in this, but back to my own experience I havent 25 done any here in Minneapolis.  I have found more discrimination when I travel to other states, 26 not in Minneapolis.  But I do hear . . . Im undocumented, Im immigrant, and Im transgender of 27 color, and I never had that discrimination.  I dont know if its because Im so confident in me or 28 maybe because Im so, This is me and if you dont accept me, fuck off, I dont really care about 29 your opinion, I dont care what you said about me, I dont care if you judge me  this is me.  But 30 I do know about a Black woman and shes an entertainer, she works at the Gay 90s.  She has a 31 job, I dont know where, and she was discriminated in her job.   32 
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AJ: Sure, it happens  every day. 34 
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RG: Or maybe they do, maybe they do discriminate, but they dont do it in my face.   36 
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AJ: Well as long as they dont do it in my face. 38 
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RG: Exactly, Im OK with it.   40 
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AJ: Absolutely.  Where do you see the trans community in the next 50 years? 42 
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JG: In the next 50?  This is Jennicet.  I hope that we come together as trans people and find ways to 44 truly break through this violence, this discrimination, this harassment that were facing in many 45 sectors of society throughout the United States and that we really embrace, not only the trans . . 46 . I think sometimes we also have to acknowledge the gender non-conforming people to be part 47 of the umbrella and how can we ourselves raise up to the challenge and truly say, Wow, this 48 happened 50 years ago, look how far weve come now.  Its a lot of work but it is my hope that 1 we can truly, truly make progress and then say we are here and lets celebrate without anyone 2 being left behind.  Because obviously some of us are getting left behind. 3 
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AJ: Yeah. 5 
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RG: This is Renata speaking once again.  I think our community is being progress, its being doing 7 huge difference from long time ago until now.  Before I hear stories about how white people 8 was mistreated  white people, not just Black people, white people too just because they were 9 gay.  And they were doing this events underground and police would come and how they 10 virtually were attacked, compared to this day we are in a glory.  I dont want to say we because 11 thats not the correct answer.  I havent suffered anything compared to them.  I struggled with 12 my family and my country but thats another story, but as a community  back to the 50s, to the 13 60s, to the 80s, we are in heaven, we have very good . . . how can I say this?  Treatment, I guess, 14 compared to back then and Im faithful and Im hoping . . . go 50 years from now, these days we 15 have a Black president, I do believe, and Im hoping youre recording this, because I do truly 16 believe that in 50 years we are going to have a transgender woman as a President of the United 17 States.   18 
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AJ: OK, Im just going to pull in real tight to you, and I want you to repeat that! 20 
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RG: OK, this is Renata speaking, and we are in 2015 and we have a Black president.  In 50 years Im 22 really hoping that we are going to have a transgender woman President of the United States. 23 
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AJ: Mic drop!  Interview over.  The last word has been spoken.  I really, honestly, just want to thank 25 you ladies so much for your wisdom, for your energy, for your passion, for your beauty on 26 camera  you look amazing.   27 
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JG: Thank you. 29 
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AJ: And just for taking the time to sit down this evening and share a little bit about your journeys.  31 Thank you so much, from the bottom of my heart. 32 
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RG: Everything for our community and if this is going to help someone, Im more than happy to do it 34 one more time or any other time you want me to be on camera.  Thank you for inviting me.  This 35 is Renata speaking, thank you for making me part of this.  Thank you for helping the community 36 to make the change  and lets keep working. 37 
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AJ: Youre welcome. 39 
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JG: This is Jennicet and I want to say youre very welcome, but at the same time I also want to say 41 thank you for including our voices as we are both trans women of color, immigrants in this 42 country.  I think we have a different perspective from the mainstream community and just 43 without a hesitation we said yes because we want to be part of the history that we are making 44 and hopefully people can connect, they can relate, and see that this work is so critical and is so 45 important.  So I just want to say that it was an honor being in Minnesota, that we were able to 46 connect, and have Renata on board.  I think the more voices, the more people have to talk 47 about and discuss and how can we work as a community.  I just want to say Im very honored to 48 have met you in person and being with this amazing friend of mine who is really fighting every 1 day here on the east coast and just saying, This is who we are, we are in every city, we are a 2 community.  It was an honor. 3 
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AJ: Well thank you both very much. 5 
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RG: Thank you. 7 

