   
Mara Glubka Narrator   Andrea Jenkins Interviewer 
    
The Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies University of Minnesota 
April 11, 2016 
 
 
   

 
  
The Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story, while providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source material about the transgender community.  The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for current and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public. 
The Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300 individuals over the next three years.  Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and experiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality.  This project will be led by Andrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist.  Andrea brings years of experience working in government, non-profits and LGBT organizations.  If you are interested in being involved in this exciting project, please contact Andrea. 
Andrea Jenkins jenki120@umn.edu (612) 625-4379 
   
 
Andrea Jenkins -AJ 1 
Mara Glubka  -MG 2 
 3 
 4 
AJ: So, hello.   5 
MG: Hello. 6 
AJ: My name is Andrea Jenkins and I am the oral historian for the Tretter Collection Transgender 7 Oral History Project at the University of Minnesota.  Today is April 11, 2016, and I am sitting 8 here in sunny Richfield, Minnesota, looking out over the lake  I believe its called Wood Lake. 9 
MG: Wood Lake Nature Center. 10 
AJ: Wood Lake Nature Center.   11 
MG: But thats that way . . . that one is Lake Richfield, sorry. 12 
AJ: Im sitting here with Mara Glubka.   13 
MG: Glubka.   14 
AJ: And Mara, thank you for being here with me today.  I really appreciate you taking the time to sit 15 down and talk with us a little bit.  16 
MG: Thank you. 17 
AJ: Im going to start by asking you to state your name and how you spell it.  Also, tell me what was 18 your gender identity . . . or what is your gender identity today and what was your gender 19 identity assigned at birth, and then what pronouns do you use?   20 
MG: My name is Mara Glubka and thats spelled M-a-r-a, last name is G-l-u-b-k-a.  I identify as a 21 transgender woman, transgender female.  I was assigned male at birth and I started 22 transitioning about five years ago.  What was the last thing you wanted me to . . .? 23 
AJ: What pronouns do you prefer?  Use? 24 
MG: She/her.  All female pronouns would be my preference. 25 
AJ: Female pronouns.  Wonderful.  So Mara, can you just tell me what is the earliest thing you 26 remember in life?   27 
MG: The earliest thing I remember . . .  28 
AJ: Your earliest memory.  It doesnt have to be related to your transgender identity. 29 
MG: You know, the honest truth is that there is a memory related to that that has kind of settled in 30 my brain as my earliest memory.  It involved a cross dressing episode at 4 where I talked one of 31 my cousins into dressing up and then we went out to the living room.  We were in my parents 32 bedroom and we took some of my moms shoes and . . . I think we used hats and probably some 33 bed sheets or something like that for a wrap and went out and presented ourselves to my dad 1 who said something like, Well my, dont you ladies look lovely today.   2 
AJ: Oh wow. 3 
MG: Yeah, but that was followed up by a stern, But, youre a boy and you dont do that.  It was like 4 a . . . I remember it well because it was kind of like, I love you but . . . That was my first . . . I 5 think that was my first introduction to, I love you but . . .   6 
AJ: So the cousin, you said it was a cousin, right?   7 
MG: Yes. 8 
AJ: Was a male assigned person too? 9 
MG: Yeah, he was like . . . I was 4-years-old and he was . . . he was maybe just a few years younger 10 than I was.  Actually, I had a conversation with him about that about a year ago. 11 
AJ: Oh really, did he remember that at all? 12 
MG: He didnt remember it at all  nope, nope. 13 
AJ: But it is one of my earliest memories. 14 
MG: Wow.   15 
AJ: Where did this happen?  Where did you grow up?   16 
MG: I grew up in Winona, Minnesota, which is a little city  small city in southeastern Minnesota right 17 on the Mississippi River  about 25,000 people.  I am the oldest of eight.  I was the oldest son in 18 a family that consisted of two boys and six girls.   19 
AJ: Oh wow. 20 
MG: So now Im the seventh daughter.   21 
AJ: Yesterday was National Siblings Day. 22 
MG: Yeah, I didnt participate in sibling day. 23 
AJ: Are you still connected with your siblings at all?   24 
MG: I am, but the honest truth is that my family is just kind of fading out of my life.  I told you about 25 this earlier, where I thought that they . . . or that they consider themselves very accepting and 26 yet its just like less and less contact.  Its just like theyre gradually fading out of my life.  And 27 thats despite the fact that I have reinforced the message to them repeatedly that you guys are 28 more important to me than ever now.   29 
AJ: So youre not invited to weddings or . . .? 30 
MG: Yeah, Im invited.  Im invited to most things, there are some things that, No, Mara wont be at 31 this one.   32 
AJ: What?  Like cookouts or . . .? 33 
MG: Recently there was an all . . . I have six sisters as I mentioned and there was a . . . right before 1 Christmas there was a Christmas caroling event at my mothers assisted living facility.  Its rare 2 for all six of us to be together because one of them lives in Charlotte.   3 
AJ: Charlotte . . . North Carolina?   4 
MG: North Carolina, yeah.  But they all got together to go sing Christmas carols over at my moms 5 and did not invite me along.  So, that gives you kind of a taste of what its like.   6 
AJ: So they dont see you as a sister?   7 
MG: But if there is a family gathering, like for Christmas, Ill be invited to that. 8 
AJ: Did the other brother go too? 9 
MG: Oh no, no.  It was a sister thing  that was the point of it.  I wasnt included as a sister. 10 
AJ: You werent included as a sister. 11 
MG: Exactly, thats the part that was, for me, disappointing to be honest.  12 
AJ: Sure, absolutely.  And understandably so.   13 
MG: Right. 14 
AJ: So what was it like growing up with all of these girls in the family? 15 
MG: All the girls . . . well, try to picture being an only child in a crowded place, thats kind of what it 16 is.  I became isolated within, kind of.  The silver lining of that is that I became pretty good at 17 being alone.  Im happy being with me  most of the time. 18 
AJ: Was that . . . so youre the oldest, you were there before all the other kids came.  Was your sort 19 of isolation related to your gender identity or your . . .? 20 
MG: Well I dont know that I would have processed that in that specific way when I was younger, but 21 as I look back  absolutely yes, thats what happened to me, yeah.  I learned very young that 22 who I really was needed to be hidden. 23 
AJ: That was not OK. 24 
MG: Yeah, it wasnt OK and if I were to tell anybody I would lose their love  thats basically how I felt 25 the world was.  I became very good at hiding, as we all do  or most of us anyway. 26 
AJ: Sure, absolutely.  Some people arent as good at hiding and subsequently . . . 27 
MG: Well, I got discovered at 15 and forced into Catholic Charities counseling. 28 
AJ: Really?   29 
MG: Yeah. 30 
AJ: At school?  At home?  31 
MG: It was at a . . . oh gosh, if I remember it was at the Bishops home in Winona.  And it turns out 1 that the . . . 2 
AJ: The Bishop, what is the . . . of the church? 3 
MG: Catholic . . . I grew up Catholic.   4 
AJ: OK.  All right.   5 
MG: Catholic, going way back to the days of the catechism, if youve heard of that.   6 
AJ: Yes, I have. 7 
MG: Going back to the days of I went to church every day as part of my school day, that kind of 8 Catholic. 9 
AJ: So you went to Catholic school all your life? 10 
MG: All the way through high school, yeah.  Twelve years, all the way through Cotter High School in 11 Winona, Minnesota.   12 
AJ: How do you spell that? 13 
MG: C-o-t-t-e-r.  C-o-t-t-e-r.  14 
AJ: Cotter.  I was thinking like Welcome Back Kotter. 15 
MG: Its spelled with a C, thats K-o-t-t-e-r.   16 
AJ: So C-o-t-t-e-r Cotter in Winona.  And you went there the whole time?   17 
MG: I went to Catholic grade school and then Catholic middle school and then Catholic high school.  18 Yeah. 19 
AJ: So you were at the Bishops house? 20 
MG: Thats where Catholic Charities counseling was at the time.  21 
AJ: Oh, its called The Bishops House, it was not . . .  22 
MG: It was the Bishops residence, it was a big . . . it was a very large Victorian house that was divided 23 up into different areas for Catholic people to do their thing.   24 
AJ: So did the Bishop actually live there though?  25 
MG: It was actually the Bishops residence as far as I remember, but I could be remembering 26 incorrectly. 27 
AJ: So there was a Bishop living in your town? 28 
MG: I think so  yeah.  Yeah, it was the seat of the Archdiocese of Winona.  So, yeah. 29 
AJ: And you got outed there.  What happened?  Youve got to tell me about this.   30 
MG: OK.  Well, it was . . . my mother discovered a collection of things that I had built up over a period 1 of time and I was keeping them under the center of my mattress  in-between the mattress and 2 the box spring.  It consisted of some articles of clothing, some female clothing, that I claimed for 3 myself.   4 
AJ: Right. 5 
MG: From various places over time.   6 
AJ: Over time, yes. 7 
MG: And, there was also a paperback novel, it was the autobiography of Christine Jorgensen.   8 
AJ: OK.   9 
MG: There was also a . . . you know that I have a little bit of an art background. 10 
AJ: Yeah, you do. 11 
MG: So I did a pencil drawing of myself where I basically gave myself a sex change with pencils, with 12 colored pencils.  First I drew myself completely as Mark and then I changed a lot of things. 13 
AJ: Really?   14 
MG: Yeah.  So yeah, with my hand I was able to go through the process of changing my gender. 15 
AJ: And this was at 15-years-old? 16 
MG: That happened at 15  now that stuff was all discovered and then it was like . . . my mother 17 discovered it and then put me into a closed-door session with my father.  That was a very . . . 18 actually a very traumatic time.   19 
AJ: I can imagine. 20 
MG: I did not want to go and have any kind of counseling.  It wasnt conversion therapy, it wasnt like 21 that.  It wasnt like, Here, make my son a son  fix my son.  It wasnt like that, it was, Help my 22 son.  But, it was, Help my son to get over this.  It was more like that but it just involved 23 several sessions of counseling.   24 
AJ: So when you say you had a closed door session with your father, youre not speaking of your 25 biological father? 26 
MG: Yeah, my biological father  yes.   27 
AJ: OK. 28 
MG: The living room where I grew up had these big doors that slid shut in the center, so when it 29 came time for some serious discussion, the living room doors shut so everybody else couldnt 30 hear or see or whatever. 31 
AJ: But Im not making the connection to the Archdiocese house yet.   32 
MG: OK, well . . . yeah, I dont know where we got to on this.   33 
AJ: So you said you remember being outed at 15 and being at the Archdiocese house.   1 
MG: Well I told you that my mother discovered those items and was like, Oh, something is different 2 with our son that we probably need to be involved in.  So she . . . it was a very traditional father 3 wore the pants in the family kind of a thing in my . . . and mom was there to cook the meals and 4 do the laundry.  It was very traditional. 5 
AJ: With these eight children. 6 
MG: It was Leave It To Beaver days where I grew up. 7 
AJ: A very traditional Catholic household.   8 
MG: Yeah.  And . . . I lost my train of thought, where that was going.  Oh yeah, it became my fathers 9 job to deal with that issue.  So then there was the closed door session in the living room, in the 10 front living room.  How did I end up at the Bishops home or at Catholic Charities?  I dont 11 remember specifically how that happened, except for they decided that I needed help and then 12 thats what they found for me.   13 
AJ: Sure.  And you went there a few times.  14 
MG: I went there involuntarily, didnt want to. 15 
AJ: What did the father at the church say? 16 
MG: It was not a father, it was a lay person who had a . . . apparently a psychology degree, Im not 17 sure.  It turns out that he impregnated an underage girl years later and was relieved of his 18 position. 19 
AJ: Yikes, thats unfortunate. 20 
MG: But I had no experiences like that with him.   21 
AJ: What was his message to you?  How was his . . . to try and help the situation? 22 
MG: I think it was a situation where I was looking for any way that I could find to get out of it and so 23 he came to me with the theory that a lot of,  . . . young men like you, or young boys like you, 24 this happens, but usually its just a phase and it will pass.  So that became the thing that I could 25 tell my parents so that I could stop going there. 26 
AJ: OK, that makes sense. 27 
MG: So I went home to mom and dad and said, Oh, you know what?  He told me that this usually 28 just passes, Im sure it will pass, it will go away.  And I knew then it wasnt going to go away, I 29 knew that  we always know that, dont we?   30 
AJ: I did.  Im not sure if I can speak for everyones experience. 31 
MG: Well everybody that I know thats transgender to the point where they want to modify 32 themselves. 33 
AJ: I agree with you that most psychologists, most doctors, most therapists, and health care 1 professionals and researchers say that if that is something that is going on within your 2 emotional life that is probably not going away.  The best way to deal with it is to accept it and 3 not try to change it.  So I agree with you from that standpoint that . . . 4 
MG: Yeah, it just took me a very, very long time to accept that.  I always accepted that I was this . . . 5 well, I knew that I was.  I knew  did I accept it?  No, not until I was well into my 50s. 6 
AJ: Wow.   7 
MG: I played with the idea of transitioning in my late 20s but I didnt have the courage to do it.  I just 8 didnt. 9 
AJ: So the first time . . . you talked about your earliest memory and you said . . . 10 
MG: There was a cross dressing incident. 11 
AJ: The cross dressing incident.  Did you at that time think that you . . . when is the first time you 12 remember or figured out that you were gender non-conforming?  Was it at 15?   13 
MG: Well probably the first time I ever heard about somebody like me, which may have been 14 Christine Jorgensen for that . . . Christine Jorgensen transitioned, I think, the year that I was 15 born.  But then her autobiography appeared in the drug store that I shoplifted it from, because I 16 was too terrified to buy it, when I was 15-years-old and when I got it home I just devoured it  17 every word.  And I wasnt a veracious reader, but I was with that. 18 
AJ: With that story. 19 
MG: Oh gosh, yes.  And I knew that I was that and I longed for that experience, to be able to 20 transition.  Reading that filled me with a deep, deep longing  you know, reading that.  But I also 21 always knew.  I couldnt have articulated it for myself as a kid, nobody knew what it was except 22 that I wished that I was a girl all my life  for as long as I can remember in my life.  A lot of 23 people say, I knew I was a girl.  For me the answer is more like, I always wanted to be a girl.  24 Thats more accurate for me.  I identified as female first before woman.  I feel like . . . I started 25 transitioning five years ago  Im a five-year-old on the woman scale of learning how to socialize.  26 I identify as transgender . . . I should have put on the paper that I identified as transgender 27 female rather than transgender woman which is what I put. 28 
AJ: We can make that change if you want to do that. 29 
MG: Yeah, the female part of it is the thing  thats the thing for me.  I feel like everything about me, 30 even before I started taking estrogen was there was certainly a feminine female spirit even 31 though I learned how to be otherwise.  I learned how to act male, be a boy, be a dad, be a son, 32 be an uncle. 33 
AJ: So you have children? 34 
MG: I have three sons.  35 
AJ: Were you ever married? 36 
MG: Twice.  My sons are now . . . I have twin sons, 27, and a 25-year-old.  Theyre all supportive. 1 
AJ: Thats great. 2 
MG: Yeah, and of my family Id say my sons are the best. 3 
AJ: Well, theyre the closest to you. 4 
MG: Yes, they are. And they actually became probably closer after transitioning.  It feels like that to 5 me anyway.  Im very lucky there, very lucky. 6 
AJ: Are any of them married and have children of their own yet? 7 
MG: No, nothing on the horizon either really.  I have one son who has been with the same girl for 8 about four years now, another one just broke up with a girl that he was with for quite a while. 9 
AJ: So no grandchildren yet? 10 
MG: Nothing on the horizon.  Id love to be a grandparent.  11 
AJ: Yeah. 12 
MG: I never went to grandmother.  I never asked my sons to call me mom or . . . I just say, Dont call 13 me dad in public, just dont out me in public  thats all I ask.   14 
AJ: What do they call you in public? 15 
MG: They call me dad otherwise . . . well, in public they just call me Mara, just call me by name. 16 
AJ: Wow.  17 
MG: Where were we? 18 
AJ: Were right where we are . . . your sons, thats great that you still have a connected relationship 19 and you guys are able to share each others lives and be a part of each others lives and support 20 each other. Thats what family is all about. 21 
MG: Im very lucky.  So many of my friends, their kids wont talk to them. 22 
AJ: So many of your friends who are transgender? 23 
MG: Yeah, its just . . .  24 
AJ: Do you have a lot of transgender friends? 25 
MG: I do.  Ive made a point of . . . well, you know, friends that I hang around with, not really.  Not 26 really like that.  But I have a lot of transgender acquaintances from getting involved. 27 
AJ: Do you have a lot of cis gender friends? 28 
MG: No.  From way back, I would say that I have three pretty close friends; two of the three are still 29 pretty close and one couldnt deal with this.  He was a 30+ year friend who said, Im friends 30 with Mark, but no  I cant deal with it.  He just straight up told me . . . he just said, Good luck 31 to you, bye. 32 
AJ: Wow, that was tough.   1 
MG: It wasnt unexpected because he was the son of a Lutheran minister so he was pretty 2 fundamental in his religious beliefs so I expected that there would be a problem with him. 3 
AJ: Tell me about your name change. 4 
MG: OK.  Yeah . . .  5 
AJ: How did you decide on Mara? 6 
MG: I was processing that. 7 
AJ: Oh, Im sorry. 8 
MG: Thats OK.   9 
AJ: I apologize. 10 
MG: Well, you know, I was trying on different names.  I knew I was going to change my name, 11 obviously, to a feminine name.  I tried getting used to Kathleen or Katherine for quite a while, 12 thats what it was going to be.  But then one day . . . I used to have a job looking over some retail 13 establishments and one of my places had a new employee and her name was Mara Lee.  Now 14 my middle name is Lee, it was Mark Lee, and when I saw Mara Lee, that was it.  I was like, Wait 15 a minute, thats only a one-letter change and it feels right.  Thats what happened.  It was 16 because I met an employee with the name Mara Lee and so I became Mara Lee as opposed to 17 Mark Lee, with a one-letter change. 18 
AJ: Do you think that helps with sort of the continuity of who you are? 19 
MG: That was part of the thinking  yeah, to honor who I was.  Im still the same person, just a 20 different looking wrapper now.  Im still the same person, were all always still the same person 21  I think.  So yeah.  That was a big part of it, and its also why I never changed my birth 22 certificate gender marker.  A lot of people change that.  I feel like OK, for the first 58 years 23 almost, my name was Mark.  I didnt change my work records or my school records  anything 24 that occurred while I was Mark stayed that way.  I changed my social security, my passport, my 25 drivers license, but my birth certificate I left male because 58 years happened as male.  I just 26 felt like that was the most honest way to do it, which now would make me illegal in North 27 Carolina because they say you can use . . . I can use the womens restroom there because Ive 28 had bottom surgery, but only if my birth certificate is right.  And my birth certificate has not 29 been changed and Im not going to change it.  Im not going to do it.   30 
AJ: So youre just going to hold it when . . . youve got a sister in Charlotte.   31 
MG: Yeah, well . . . you know, Im not going to be in a hurry to get down there.   32 
AJ: Yeah, thats kind of ridiculous.  Say more about that.  Were on tape so somebody listening to 33 this 20 years from now might not know what were laughing about.   34 
MG: Right.  Say more about HB2 in North Carolina. 35 
AJ: House Bill 2. 1 
MG: Yeah.  Id back up just a little bit and talk a little bit about South Dakotas bill, which the number 2 I dont remember . . . I dont remember what the number was anymore because that got vetoed 3 by the governor, but it got easily passed by the South Dakota legislature.  That . . .  4 
AJ: And what was the bill?  I know you dont remember the number. 5 
MG: It was a bathroom bill, it was you have to have . . . you have to use the facilities that match what 6 was on your birth certificate  your original birth certificate.   7 
AJ: So essentially an anti-trans bill that denied people the right to use the restroom or locker room. 8 
MG: I think it was a transgender student thing, it was really focused on kids.  They didnt want kids to 9 be . . . they didnt want transgender girls to be using . . . and its always the girls, nobody cares 10 about transgender men in the mens room, they only care about transgender girls or women in 11 the womens room.  Its really a fear of men, its a fear of a man in a dress in the ladies room.  12 And if its a trans man, its the fear of a man-looking person in the ladies room. 13 
AJ: Right. 14 
MG: Its a fear of men, its goofy  really.  And its mostly men that are afraid of themselves, oddly.  15 Isnt it?  Women arent leading the charge to keep transgender out of the bathroom  no, its 16 men.  Men are determined to protect men from men.  They say that theyre protecting women 17 and children, right?  But theyre really just protecting the world from them, thats what theyre 18 trying to do. 19 
AJ: Yeah, no  I think you hit on an important and interesting point there, Mara, that it is sort of 20 driven by men who are making the assumption that transgender women are men and so 21 consequently . . .  22 
MG: Exactly, theyre not allowing us to be women.  Thats really what the fight is about. The fight is 23 about being allowed to be women in society and why thats even being voted on is kind of 24 offensive to me, but thats where were at. 25 
AJ: So youre saying this whole thing is sort of rooted in patriarchy. 26 
MG: Thats exactly what Im saying, yes.  Exactly what Im saying.  My world view is that there was 27 some . . . that the patriarchy evolved out of the hunter-gatherer thing, something that goes back 28 a long, long ways.  Its biological, its genetic or whatever, I think  gender roles.  But its gotten 29 very badly out of balance as far as decency.  I dont know, the patriarchy  yes.  My world view is 30 that its a man-ruled world and man uses myth to control  that would be in my world view of 31 religion and Im not making a distinction, I feel that way about all religion.   32 
AJ: Wow, very well stated, Mara.  33 
MG: Thank you.  I think religion is the bane of the LGBT world, thats the source of all of our suffering 34  religion.   35 
AJ: Some people might say its a source of the suffering of the world. 36 
MG: And I would be one of them.  Its certainly the truth when it comes to LGBT people.   1 
AJ: Tell me about challenges that youve faced since you have decided to express your true gender 2 identity, Mara? 3 
MG: Oh yeah.  We could go on for days, couldnt we?  Most of us. 4 
AJ: Its possible, yeah.  Weeks, months even.  5 
MG: Well, the first challenges came with my family.  When I came out to my family, because thats 6 where I went first . . . it started with my parents.  I wrote them a letter, read them a long coming 7 out . . . and at the end of it they were like, Oh yeah, we know people like that, theyre nice 8 people.  They took it as I had just told them I was gay.  So I said, You think Im gay, right?  9 Well, yeah, isnt that . . . I said, No, no, no, no, thats not . . . OK.  My five page letter did not 10 convey the message properly.  I had to own that.  Its hard sometimes to explain things when it 11 comes to matters of sex and gender because the pre-conceived notions are so strong and the 12 learning is so strong with people when it comes to that.  It goes back to what I said earlier about 13 being told at four that, Youre a boy, you dont do that  dont do that.  Thats what everybody 14 is taught  everybody is taught that, we get that from mom and dad. 15 
AJ: We pick it up. 16 
MG: It comes from mom and dad. 17 
AJ: You think so? 18 
MG: Which is rooted somewhere in Leviticus and places like that.  And if youre of a different faith 19 then its a different book, but to me its all the same.   20 
AJ: I think its certainly incorporated in our society and culture too, but our parents reinforce that. 21 
MG: Well thats where we get it from. 22 
AJ: They are our first educators. 23 
MG: Yes, they are.  And they were taught the same things that theyre teaching us. 24 
AJ: But then we get to schools and the boys line up over here and the girls line up over there and 25 then we go to separate gyms, so it just keeps getting reinforced over time.  Absolutely.  So you 26 had problems with your family. 27 
MG: I tried to educate.  I provided the books to help them learn, told them that they were welcome 28 to come with me when I went to counseling.  In fact, my counselors were like, This is a really 29 good thing if family members come and show their support, so if you were to bring them in that 30 would be a good thing.  They never were willing to do that  except one sister, at one time, she 31 was thinking that shed like to do that but then I felt like it was a situation where once she 32 realized that there was no  derailing me from transitioning then she lost interest about coming 33 in to talk to the counselor  which leads me to believe that she was really only interested in one 34 thing and that was talking me out of it and figuring out some way to end this insanity of gender 35 transition in her older sibling.  So ultimately there really was very, very little, in my opinion, in 36 the way of support from my family.  But they all believe that theyve been very supportive. 37 
AJ: Because they havent called you names or . . .? 1 
MG: Yeah, because they invite me over to the Christmas gatherings or the 4th of July or whatever that 2 is.  So Im included in the family in that way. 3 
AJ: How do you feel when youre in those situations?  How do people respond to you?  Do they 4 respect your gender identity?   5 
MG: Yeah, for the most part.  Theres one brother-in-law that doesnt really.  And there is a 6 difference between the males and the females.  The brothers-in-laws are much more 7 uncomfortable than my sister or my brothers wife  my sisters or my brothers wife.  But, I think 8 its mostly that Im simply not really accepted as a female, as a sister.  Theyll tell you that Im 9 their sister now, but its like what I said earlier about the Christmas caroling thing.  And another 10 example would be a couple of years ago my mom was in the hospital and I went with a couple of 11 my sisters for her release and when we went there to get her she needed to dress so there was 12 this little moment of pulling the curtain around the bed to help mom get ready to leave.  So 13 there was my two sisters pulling the curtain and making sure that I wasnt in there.  So its like 14 that  subtle things that they probably wouldnt think anything of but its like that. 15 
AJ: But you certainly do. 16 
MG: I do, yeah.  I very much noticed it when I wasnt invited to the Christmas caroling thing, as the 17 only sister who wasnt invited to that.  I very much noticed that. That hurt my feelings a lot.   18 
AJ: What other kinds of challenges?  Any challenges . . . 19 
MG: Well, I told you that I lost my job three months after coming out. 20 
AJ: Yeah, tell me more about that.   21 
MG: Well first of all, that was planned with my counselor.  I dont know if you know about the 22 University of Minnesotas Department of Sexuality?  I imagine you must know something. 23 
AJ: I know a lot about it. 24 
MG: OK, do you remember Walter? 25 
AJ: I do, Walter Bockting  Dr. Walter Bockting.   26 
MG: Walter was . . . when I first steered myself into the U of Ms facility there, right on 35, in 2011.  I 27 think it was April of 2011, I just walked in and said, I have a gender identity issue, who is your 28 best person?  I was like, Im taking care of this, this is happening.  So Walter was who I got 29 put on to.  I dont remember why we were going there but I sure liked Walter.  He ended up 30 leaving after a couple of years, he got a position at Columbia in Manhattan.  So, who wouldnt 31 go there?  I felt like I was losing my mom, like I was abandoned by a parent.  All of a sudden . . . I 32 had a very close . . . Walter was very important to me so that was kind of hard.  I dont 33 remember what the point was of what I was talking about. 34 
AJ: Well, you were talking about challenges that you have faced and your employment that you . . . 35 
MG: Oh yeah, I steered myself in in April of 2011. 36 
AJ: So you had sort of planned this leaving of your job. 1 
MG: Yeah, thats where I was going with that  yeah.  I discussed planned coming out at work with 2 Walter, so that was all discussed in detail how that was going to be approached.  So it started 3 with me speaking with my boss in person and explaining to him that I was transgender and that I 4 needed to probably switch genders at some point, but Im not quite there yet and well talk 5 later.  It was kind of like that, that was the first step.  And then I was told to let my boss have a 6 little time to digest that and then well take the next step.  But the next step . . . when the next 7 step came, I just got let go instead.  I was working for a small company who had been talking 8 about breaking up the company prior to that anyway.  Profits were kind of tight and so . . . I had 9 actually, for quite some time, been kind of under the gun a little bit thinking that my job was 10 going to go away because they were going to dissolve the partnership, sell the stores, whatever 11 like that.  So I personally believe that what happened was when I told them that I was going to 12 transition that they kind of hastened their plans and then three months after I told them they 13 said, Well, you know, money is tight, we feel we can no longer justify your salary and you know 14 that we had been thinking about this.  Im sure . . . I would bet the farm that they certainly 15 talked to legal counsel before they had that little meeting with me.  But again . . . 16 
AJ: What kind of industry, what business?  You dont need to name it if you dont want to. 17 
MG: Oh thats OK.  I wont name . . . I worked for a small company of convenience stores and truck 18 stops. My title was District Manager.  I basically ran . . . I ran the show.  It was a company 19 formed by three partners in Tulsa, Oklahoma who bought the last retail properties off of a 20 divestment by Sinclair Oil retail properties  they sold all the retail company-owned stores and 21 these guys bought a bunch of them and they asked me to run their little company because they 22 were doing other things.  It was really about buying some pieces of dirt that would go up in 23 value eventually.  My job was just not to lose money in the meantime. 24 
AJ: You sold gas. 25 
MG: Yeah, gas and cigarettes.  Convenience stores and truck stops, there was cafes and . . .  26 
AJ: So you probably made good money. 27 
MG: Nah, it wasnt that great.  I dont know if I want to say that . . . yeah, no it wasnt that great.  It 28 was $1,000/week.  I was paid $1,000/week22 and I had a car, a nice car to drive and all expenses 29 paid.  So it was a good job, but people that were in a position like I was in normally would 30 probably make $70,000-$80,000 or more.  That particular situation didnt warrant that and I was 31 in a . . .  32 
AJ: How many years had you done that job for?   33 
MG: Well Ive done that pretty much all my working life.  I fell into it in 1979 originally.   34 
AJ: With that same company? 35 
MG: No, no.  I started out working as a store manager a long, long time ago because I wanted to 36 learn how to run a business, because I wanted to own a business.  So that was the place  I got 37 hired by a little outfit and became a store manager and then I just got promoted.  And then the 38 company that I worked for bought other stores and then . . . I was bought and sold like seven or 1 eight times through my working life.  Every time that happened it was a start over on your 2 benefits and your retirement stuff.  It was a start over actually sometimes with having rapport 3 with your boss, it was having a new boss all the time. 4 
AJ: Exactly. 5 
MG: Except when you were on the end of buying other places, so I was on that end too and that was 6 good.  But, bottom line is three months after I told them, We cant afford you anymore.  I 7 went on unemployment . . . oh, that day . . . heres an important thing.  That day, I was 10 8 months into hormone therapy at the time, and about a year and a half into counseling . . .  9 
AJ: So had you been socially transitioning . . .? 10 
MG: No, no. 11 
AJ: Had you been physically out as Mara? 12 
MG: I was but only in . . . I went to the Town House Bar a lot. 13 
AJ: So not at work. 14 
MG: Not at work.  No, not at work and not out . . . at that time I was too scared . . . well, maybe I was 15 going to the grocery store by then.  But it was pretty early in the transition and I was not . . . I 16 would say that I was . . . Im sorry, Im remembering incorrectly.  By the time I was let go, I was 17 Mara except at work  so pretty much as soon as I got home and on the weekends and that kind 18 of stuff.  But that day  that day that I lost my job, that was the end of Mark.  It was like, OK, 19 lets see, Im pretty deep into this, I might not be able to find another job unless I give up this 20 quest of changing my gender but theres no way, I cant go back.  The cat was completely out of 21 the bag.  One of the things that I think a lot of people like me will tell you is that once you let the 22 cat that far out, you cant stuff it back in.  Once youre that far out of the closet you cant get 23 back in  you just cant do it.  I couldnt.  It was already a situation where it was either transition 24 or die, like so many of us when we get to that. 25 
AJ: Theres a lot of people who, unfortunately, get to that situation.  So you lost your job?  Thats 26 certainly a very difficult outcome.  But you were 58-years-old. 27 
MG: I was. 28 
AJ: What did you do? 29 
MG: I was determined to be me.  That was October 31, 2012, thats when I lost my job.  On 30 November 30, 2012 . . .  31 
AJ: So on Halloween. 32 
MG:  . . . so precisely one . . . yeah, Halloween.  I was never somebody that would dress up on 33 Halloween as one of those times that you had an excuse to do it.  For me, if I were to dress up as 34 a female on Halloween, somebody would be able to tell that it was more serious than I wanted 35 them to know.   36 
AJ: OK. 1 
MG: So I never did that on Halloween.  But it was Halloween that I became Mara full-time forever in 2 2012.  And it was exactly one month later that I had my name changed legally in court.  And 3 thats a good story because I asked my youngest son to come.  You have to have two people 4 witness for you so I had one of my sisters and one of my sons and the fun part was when it came 5 time for my son, the judge asked, How do you know Mara?  And my son looked at me and 6 said, Well shes my dad.  When youre standing there in front of a room full of people, because 7 there was a bunch of people waiting to do their thing in court, I just closed my eyes and smiled 8 and shook my head.  It was like this is Twilight Zone stuff.  9 
AJ: Was it affirming?  Was it embarrassing?   10 
MG: Probably more embarrassing than anything.  It was like, Oh, what am I doing?  What am I 11 putting my son though.  I fought with that for a long time with my sons. Coming out to my sons 12 was terrifying.  My whole approach to that was to wait.  My marriage broke apart while they 13 were younger, much younger, and I really wanted to transition right then and there . . . because 14 the fact that I was this wasnt a part of my marriage other than I told my wife about it, thats 15 probably what ended it, thats probably what ended my marriage.  It was the old, I didnt marry 16 a woman.   17 
AJ: So it was related to your gender identity then. 18 
MG: What was? 19 
AJ: The end of your marriage. 20 
MG: Oh absolutely . . . well, you know what?  My wife, just like my family would tell you that theyre 21 good supporting people of me as a transgender person, my wife would probably tell you that no 22 it wasnt that, but it was.  Now here is why I know that.  Through the years, and I was married 23 twice so that meant  and I was only ever with females, I was only ever with women intimately, 24 and I would say that probably 100% of the time that I was intimate with a woman, the pleasure 25 of it was me being able to imagine myself being them in that situation.  Thats me.  I think that if 26 youre intimate with somebody for a very long time, like for . . . we were married 17 years and 27 together for 20, I think you can kind of tell that something is off, and when things fell apart I 28 learned that that that was true.  My ex would tell me things like, You know, it seemed like you 29 were in another world when we were having sex.  Well, yeah, I was.  I was imagining being the 30 person with the vagina.   31 
AJ: And that made her uncomfortable. 32 
MG: I dont know that it made her uncomfortable, I think it just kind of built up over time into a 33 realization that something isnt wired properly.  There was this long, slow realization and it 34 became that . . . it just didnt work anymore, the physical thing didnt work anymore.  Well, 35 actually, I should take that back because we did . . . we were physical all the way up until the 36 very end, but there was . . . she was seeking it elsewhere at the same time too.  So that 37 happened.  But when that went bad, I really wanted to transition but my sense of being right as 38 a person, as a father and being responsible, was that I had to wait at least until they were some 1 time out of high school  past high school.   2 
AJ: Did you have custody of the boys? 3 
MG: We ended up with 50/50 straight-up custody.  But my sons were actually . . .  4 
AJ: So you spent a lot of time with them? 5 
MG: Yeah, my sons were actually with me more because my wife was a . . . she worked in 6 restaurants.  She worked every weekend, she was always working Friday and Saturday nights so 7 they were always with me.  I had a Monday-Friday job, my sons were with me every weekend 8 after my wife left.  I kept the house that we were in, thanks to some help . . . big help from one 9 of my sisters who, once the value of her half of things was determined, my sister wrote a check 10 to her.  That was a very nice thing for me.   11 
AJ: Yeah, wow.   12 
MG: With very, very easy terms.   13 
AJ: Well that was pretty supportive, but that was pre-transition though. 14 
MG: Yeah.  Oh no, I still hid it for almost a decade after that.  It was just like no, Im not putting them 15 through that, through gender transition, until theyre out of high school then I guess Ill have to 16 do that.  I always knew I had to do it at that point. 17 
AJ: It was just a matter of when. 18 
MG: Yeah, when the time was right I had to.  When I could do it without feeling like I was doing 19 wrong by my sons, then I went forward.   20 
AJ: Wow.  So that was one of the positive things then, is that your son stood up for you at your 21 name change.  They were an official witness for you  one of your sons, you said.   22 
MG: One of them was, and all three of them would have been if I had asked them.  They would have 23 been, theyre really, really great. 24 
AJ: What other positive aspects have come since youve begun to express your true gender 25 identity? 26 
MG: Happy like Ive never been  like Ive never been.  Living authentically was like, Wow, this is 27 what its like to feel happy.  That really happened, and it happened more than once.  There 28 would be just moments in my day where it was like, Oh, this is so great, Im so happy now.  Im 29 so happy being me.  It still . . . if it wasnt for the world and how the world is pushing back, man 30 wed all be in heaven all the time I think.  If it wasnt for the pushback.  So the positive, the real 31 positive . . .  32 
AJ: So some days you just pinch yourself and ask yourself or say to yourself, Wow, I did this.  33 
MG: Yeah, and at the same time its just been really, really hard too  its often really, really hard.  I 34 was never able to find another job.  I accessed every tool that the state makes available, and the 35 state makes a lot of things available to people who are out of work.  I went to every kind of 1 private session, every kind of class that the Minnesota Workforce Centers put out, seminars  2 everything.  I went to job networking clubs where I stood up in front of a big roomful of people 3 and said, Im a transgender person and Im a father.  I was fiercely needing to be that way 4 about it and everybody was advising me, Dont tell them that youre transgender, just go and 5 apply and then later, when the right time comes.  Well to me, the right time is all the time  not 6 to walk into a store and say, Hello, Im transgender.  But if youre in a hiring situation, it goes 7 back to the same theory of how I approach my birth certificate, when it came time to transition 8 that was the time to not be dishonest about who I was anymore in any way. 9 
AJ: So you dont want to go back into another closet, into a different closet? 10 
MG: Yeah, I wasnt about . . . I was fiercely not about to trade one closet for another  no way.  That 11 hasnt changed.  I wasnt able to find a job but I was able to crawl to the shore of 62-year-old 12 social security.   13 
AJ: Just made it by the skin of your teeth.   14 
MG: I crawled to the . . . remember Sandra Bullock coming out of the water in Gravity, that was me 15 coming out of gender transition.   16 
AJ: Oh wow.   17 
MG: But I was able to stand up . . . I lost everything.  I lost my house, I lost all my retirement money.  18 Yeah.  But now Im here, I like it here. This is great.   19 
AJ: Its a beautiful home.   20 
MG: Its a home, its 744 square feet as opposed to 3000 with a 3-car garage and a big lot and all 21 that.  All the trappings that I earned from my years of white privilege  white male privilege.  No 22 doubt about it, there is that. 23 
AJ: That exists, thats real.   24 
MG: That is real. 25 
AJ: But, you know . . . to the extent that you are comfortable, tell me about any medical 26 interventions you have undergone. 27 
MG: Sure, yeah.  Well, I told you that I started counseling in 2011, I started hormones in January of 28 2012  hormone replacement therapy.  I changed my name in November of . . . well no, I started 29 living full-time on the day that I lost my job, October 31, 2012.  Changed my name legally on 30 November 30, 2012, and then the big intervention.  I started living full-time on October 31, 31 2012, and reported that as my official start date of my real life experience that the Minnesota 32 Transgender Program requires, or all transgender programs in the United States require.  And 33 on November 23, 2013, so 23 days after my one-year, I had bottom surgery in Bangkok, 34 Thailand.   35 
AJ: Oh wow. 36 
MG: I went there by myself.  I booked it and went there, all within the space of a little over three 1 weeks.  Wait a minute, I made contact with the doctor, I knew which doctor I was going to, I had 2 already made that decision when the time came.  But, I kind of made the decision suddenly 3 because I had a conversation with my therapist where I lost everything  not simply because I 4 lost my job and the money ran out, I lost everything because when I lost my job I decided I was 5 so smart that I could make money in the stock market.  Thats how I lost all my money.  So, I 6 started buying and selling stock  well, I studied it.  I studied it for a while first.  I took out a 7 subscription to the Wall Street Journal, I took books out of the library, I read books, I took notes.  8 I was clipping the Wall Street Journal on a daily basis, and I lost all my money.  I lost it all . . . I 9 lost it all. And while I was losing it heavily I was in a session with my therapist where I was telling 10 her, I had a different therapist at the time, that Im in danger of losing the money that I need to 11 transition surgically.  And she goes, Youre going to risk that?  Youre going to risk losing your 12 gender? Thats how she put it.  She asked me if I was going to risk losing my gender.  And I left 13 there and I realized that no, I wasnt going to risk losing my gender.  So I made contact with 14 Thailand on October 21st, I think was the day, of 2013, and I said, Im ready to go, whats the 15 soonest I could get in, expecting it to be at least six months or so  at least.  The surgeons here 16 are like a year out  and theyre booked up a few months ahead over there.  They said, Well, 17 what month would you like to come?  I said, This month if you can, or next.  And then the 18 third choice would be the month after that.  Then she said, Well, the earliest date we have is 19 November 23rd.  This was on October 21st.  Now I didnt even have a passport at the time.  I 20 hadnt changed . . . well, Id changed my drivers license, I hadnt done birth certificate and I 21 needed a new birth certificate.  But I had to get all kinds of things in place really fast and I had to 22 wire money, but I got it done.  I got it done. 23 
AJ: So you paid for your surgery? 24 
MG: I did.  I paid for my surgery with what was . . . what I was rapidly losing in the stock market.   25 
AJ: How much was it? 26 
MG: Bottom surgery with the doctor that I went to in Thailand, at that time, was $10,400, which is 27 less than half of what it would cost in the United States.  So I think Marci Bowers is like $24,000 28 right now or something like that.   29 
AJ: Im not sure, but that sounds very close to what the cost of the surgery is.  So you were able to 30 get breast development from the hormones?   31 
MG: Well, I . . . yeah, not a lot. 32 
AJ: Because you dont mention that you had top surgery. 33 
MG: I didnt, no I didnt get breast augmentation.  I debated it. I could have gotten it for $3200 34 additional dollars there, which is pretty cheap for breasts.  But, I . . . I dont know.  I guess I kind 35 of wanted to go through the process with being cut as little as possible.  Right?  To my way of 36 thinking, I couldnt be female unless I got cut down below.  There was no way to be who I 37 thought of myself without that.  But the rest, I felt I could . . . 38 
AJ: You could live with your body. 39 
MG: I could live with the rest of everything.  Yeah.  So, no  no breasts.  And now I find myself longing 1 for that.  What youre looking at here . . . its just a padded bra but its not enough . . . its not 2 enough.  Now I wish I had . . . 3 
AJ: Was there any breast development from the hormones? 4 
MG: Yes, there was.  I am almost a B cup, so yeah.  If Im standing in front of a mirror, Im not as 5 female on top as I wish I was.  But much more so than before.  Its like that.  So I wish I could get 6 augmentation now because seeing any part of me looking not female, makes me long to change 7 it or enhance it or make it better. 8 
AJ: Will your medical insurance cover that now?   9 
MG: You know, Im on Minnesota Care and its excluded officially.   10 
AJ: Its possible . . .  11 
MG: I know, thats right  I think it is possible.  And the way its possible is I have to get a doctor to be 12 on my side, to call it medically necessary.  And Im going to be going after that but Im not there 13 yet.   14 
AJ: All right.  Well good luck. 15 
MG: Yeah, thanks.  Im pretty happy with everything.  I got very lucky  this surgeon did a beautiful 16 job, it works beautiful, Ive had no complications. 17 
AJ: Yeah. 18 
MG: Yes, so very lucky there. 19 
AJ: Can you orgasm? 20 
MG: I can, yeah.  It took me a long time though.  The doctor I picked, I picked specifically because he 21 does the procedure a little differently than most doctors.  Most doctors do whats called a penile 22 inversion.   23 
AJ: Penile inversion? 24 
MG: Penile inversion, which is basically where they turn your penis inside out and tuck it up inside of 25 you  thats your vagina.  There was a method pioneered in Bangkok that isnt that.  They use 26 the skin of your penis to fashion your outer labia and your inner labia and all of the outer . . .  27 
AJ: Nerve endings. 28 
MG: Yeah, where the nerve endings are and you want a finer, thinner skin thats more like a natural 29 female and then the vaginal canal is fashioned out of the scrotal skin primarily.  Its different.  30 Its a little bit different but I thought it made more sense and I think I was right. 31 
AJ: Just from a technicality standpoint, because I know you need to have done electrolysis typically. 32 
MG: I did, Im sorry I didnt get to that.  I started with my first physical intervention. 33 
AJ: And that takes time.   34 
MG: My first physical intervention was hormones, the second was hair removal from the face  but 1 yeah, I went through a bunch of sessions of laser initially and I still need, actually, quite a bit of . 2 . . laser takes care of your dark pigmented hair.  You couldnt do laser at all because black hair 3 on dark skin doesnt work, blond hair on light skin doesnt work, youve got to have . . . the best 4 thing is black hair on pale skin, the more contrast the better laser works.   5 
AJ: Sure. 6 
MG: I had enough contrast to get rid of my pigmented facial hair.  Being as old as I am, most of my 7 facial hair is white so all of that is still there pretty much.  But you cant see it, it doesnt show as 8 shadow because its white hair.   9 
AJ: But then you had electrolysis . . . 10 
MG: I have not had any electrolysis. 11 
AJ: On your scrotal . . .? 12 
MG: Oh no, no  and that was the thing, thank you for bringing that up.  That was another reason 13 why I chose this surgeon.  I told you that they fashion the vaginal canal out of your scrotal skin 14 and before they do that they take it off to the side and they scrap all of the hair follicles out of 15 the skin.  So there is no electrolysis required down below prior to this particular procedure.  Its 16 a one-step, no electrolysis required procedure that I personally believe is a much better way to 17 go because it really, I think, makes it most like what it would have been if you were born that 18 way.   19 
AJ: How long were you in Thailand? 20 
MG: Almost a month  27 days to be exact.   21 
AJ: For recovery? 22 
MG: Mostly, yeah.  They take very good care of you in Thailand  and thats true of any surgeon.  23 They have a ton of aftercare.  I had a nurse . . . I was only in the surgical facility for four days but 24 I had a nurse come visit me every day until I went home.  She was cleaning and dressing my 25 wounds  yeah, taking care of me. 26 
AJ: How soon before they had you up walking?   27 
MG: I would say that was maybe at about a week, if I remember right.  Yeah, it took me about a week 28 to walk.  I think that was probably the most uncomfortable part of it all, really, was the time in 29 bed.  It started to be very uncomfortable on the back of my legs and my butt just from lying in 30 bed for so long.  The surgery itself I felt there was very little pain, very little pain. 31 
AJ: Good. 32 
MG: And I woke up in the middle of the night in Bangkok and I turned on the TV, they had a TV right 33 on the wall across from my bed, and there was the Packers/Vikings game live. 34 
AJ: Wow. 35 
MG: This was like 12:30 in the morning, and theyre exactly 12 hours different from us  so it was 1 12:30 . . . it was just a little after kickoff. 2 
AJ: Oh, so it was like noon here. 3 
MG: In Minnesota  yeah.  It was actually at Lambeau.  So yeah, there I was watching the 4 Vikings/Packers live on the other side of the planet  that was bizarre.   5 
AJ: So no regrets? 6 
MG: Oh gosh, no.  No regrets.   7 
AJ: What has been one specific person or organization that has been sort of a pivotal for you in your 8 transition?   9 
MG: Well, Im going to start with my therapist.  I mentioned Walter earlier.  He kind of got me over 10 the hump toward starting the process.  I was too afraid to go out of the house, to show myself.   11 
AJ: Right. 12 
MG: I was just arguing with him about why I couldnt do that.  He just said something very simple to 13 me one day, he just said, You should try being a . . . because I think I was expressing fear of 14 being a freak.  I dont want to be a freak, there was a lot of that.   15 
AJ: Right. 16 
MG: You should just go ahead and try being a freak for 10 minutes sometime, is what he tried with 17 me.  And it worked.  I was off and running with that.  That worked. It was just like that moment 18 with my other therapist where she asked me, Are you going to risk your gender?   19 
AJ: Right. 20 
MG: So there were two very pivotal moments for me in therapy.  The first one was, You should risk 21 being a freak for 10 minutes, and the other one was, Youre going to risk your gender?  Those 22 two things worked on me.  Organizations since then?  I was involved with a transgender book 23 club for a while.   24 
AJ: Really?  What kind of books would you guys read? 25 
MG: We werent reading books.  It was, really, a bunch of us who were getting together with food 26 and sitting.  We rented a room . . . well, not rented a room but the University of Minnesota 27 provided a room, so it was once a month, the fourth Thursday of every month, it was the 28 Transgender Book Club.   29 
AJ: Was that a part of the Program in Human Sexuality?   30 
MG: No, it wasnt part of the program but the program was providing the space for it.   31 
AJ: Got it. 32 
MG: And most of the people that were in the group were part of the program.  Yeah.  But it wasnt 33 part of the program officially  no.  It was just a bunch of us getting together and talking. 34 
AJ: Like a potluck kind of thing. 1 
MG: More or less  more or less, yeah.  I think maybe once or twice we talked about books.  It was 2 called a book club but it really wasnt.  Thats disbanded since, but that group Ive had contact 3 with on and off since.  And I met most of the people I know locally probably though being 4 introduced to the Town House Bar.   5 
AJ: OK. 6 
MG: Youve been there, I assume. 7 
AJ: I have been to the Town House Bar. 8 
MG: I cut my teeth there.   9 
AJ: Is that right? 10 
MG: Yeah, thats where . . . 11 
AJ: Thats where you went to be a freak? 12 
MG: Thats where I went to be a freak and I kept going back and started having a wonderful, 13 wonderful time and realized that dancing was actually quite a lot of fun. 14 
AJ: Dancing can be a form of resistance. 15 
MG: Dancing as me was cathartic, very cathartic.   16 
AJ: And a form of resilience, I would say. 17 
MG: Something, yeah.  Its a form of a lot of things, I guess  I dont know.  But yeah.  Where were we 18 going next? 19 
AJ: Tell me about your love life, your relationship life.  Did you meet anybody at the Town House? 20 
MG: Oh, OK.  Basically, pretty dry.  Pretty dry, that part.  I experimented twice with men but not to 21 the . . . not past second base, to put it that way.  Kissing and touching, but no sex.   22 
AJ: No penetration. 23 
MG: Nothing involving genitals, lets put it that way, because both times were pre-op and I was never 24 interested in having a sexual experience with a man pre-op.  Now Im interested but Im still . . . 25 well, like I told you, Im a 5-year-old.  Im a 5-year-old girl.  Ive talked to other trans girls whove 26 had sex pretty shortly afterwards and were able to orgasm.  Me, that wasnt the case.  Ive had 27 no sex with anybody for a long time  its been eight years, I think. 28 
AJ: Eight years, you said? 29 
MG: Its been eight years since Ive had any sex.  At that time it was me still thinking that I was going 30 to find another wife  after two failures with women.  That was an area of awakening, that was 31 a moment of, What am I doing?  Why am I still trying to do things that arent working?   32 
AJ: Yeah. 33 
MG: So that . . . I had a girlfriend for about six months, we even talked marriage within six months 1 but at some point I woke up and realized this is not smart.  What am I doing?  Why am I trying 2 to be a husband to a wife again?  No, no, no.   3 
AJ: So it wasnt like a lesbian relationship?   4 
MG: Well, you know, it was . . . it was like I told you, whenever I was intimate with a female, with a 5 woman, the pleasure always was a result of me living through them vicariously. 6 
AJ: So you had already had the surgery . . .  7 
MG: No, no. 8 
AJ: Oh, this was pre-surgery. 9 
MG: My surgery was only three and a half years ago  eight years ago I had a girlfriend, way before 10 transition. 11 
AJ: Got it.   12 
MG: Years before transition, four or five years before transition, was the last time Ive had intimacy 13 with another human being outside of a couple of small experiments with men at . . . the first 14 time was at the Southern Comfort Conference in Atlanta and the second time was with a guy 15 that I met at the Town House Bar.  And both times, they were chasers  and you know what 16 chasers are, right?   17 
AJ: I do know but . . .  18 
MG: Chasers are only interested in transgender women who are pre-op.  They have a fetish about a 19 girl with a penis basically.  Since I wasnt . . . I mean I was a girl with a penis at the time but I was 20 a girl with a penis who wasnt interested in having sex with men while I had a penis. 21 
AJ: I get you. 22 
MG: That just didnt work for me in my brain.  But, both of those sessions, once they realized that I 23 wasnt going to go down on them they lost interest quickly.  So that was . . . so my experiences 24 with love have not been, I would say.  I did find out what it felt like to be kissed and treated like 25 a female  that was nice.  26 
AJ: Yeah, you enjoyed that? 27 
MG: I did enjoy that.   28 
AJ: So, if you were seeking a relationship today, who would you pursue? 29 
MG: I dont think Id pursue anybody.  I think if somebody wanted to pursue me, Im still fussy so the 30 odds arent very good.   31 
AJ: Oh. 32 
MG: All right.  It would have to be just the universe made it happen  against all odds. 33 
AJ: So if was a male or a female . . . 34 
MG: If the universe made it happen against all odds, and if the universe were to do that, I suppose 1 my ideal would be to find a husband actually and get to be a woman in that way.  If I could Id 2 change every cell in my body and go back and not be cheated out of being a mother or a sister 3 and be a young woman and a young girl.  I would be one of those who would be jealous of 4 females for having their period even.  On a scale of 1-10 of being trans, Im an 11, I think. 5 
AJ: If there is such a thing as a scale.   6 
MG: Yeah, if there is such a thing.  There is a scale, dont you think?  There is certainly a spectrum. 7 
AJ: I believe there is a spectrum, I dont necessarily . . . I wouldnt rate it as a scale personally, but . . 8 .  9 
MG: OK, its just words, right?   10 
AJ: I think its just different identities.  I think people have different connections to their genders 11 and they express it in different ways. 12 
MG: True, but I also see that there is a . . . its kind of a gender dyad, really.  On one end theres 13 female, on the other end theres male and then most people are close to the end, but then 14 theres people that are in the middle and people that are more towards the outside  towards 15 female or male.   16 
AJ: Sure. 17 
MG: More towards neutral  thats what I mean by spectrum.  Or, what was the other word that you 18 didnt like . . .  19 
AJ: Well, I guess . . . I dont know, you said scale.   20 
MG: Scale, yeah.  Right  on a scale of 1-10, yeah.  We could go this way then  if there was a scale 21 where it was 0-10 male and then the other way 0-10 female, I would be an 11 over on the 22 female side.  23 
AJ: Im not disputing your interpretation of how you feel at all.  Im certainly not. 24 
MG: Heres an interesting thing I want to throw on this.  Ive never not wanted to be me.  Ive never . 25 . . because Ive heard a lot of trans women say, Goll, I wish I wasnt this way, its so hard, or 26 whatever.  Ive always felt like it was a really good deal to be me.   27 
AJ: Yeah. 28 
MG: Thats weird, right?  Even though I was too afraid to be me, I still always felt it was a good deal.   29 
AJ: Sure  no, I get that.   30 
MG: OK. 31 
AJ: I totally get that.  You did not sort of wish that you did not have this . . .  32 
MG: Never wished it.   33 
AJ:  . . . challenge, you just wished you could be a girl. 34 
MG: Yeah. 1 
AJ: Like you told me earlier. 2 
MG: Yeah, but even though I was a girl that had the wrong bag of bones wrapped around my girlness, 3 I never wished I was somebody else.  I dont know, Ive always wished I was female but being a 4 transgender person is cool too. 5 
AJ: Yeah, one of the questions I think they ask you as youre seeking your permission to take 6 hormones, as it were, is, If there was a pill that would make you not transgender, would you 7 take it?   8 
MG: No, I would not.  Im lucky to be me. 9 
AJ: Wow. 10 
MG: I was lucky to be born who I was, very lucky  luckier than most.  Has it been a bed of roses?  11 Hell no.  There is a suicide attempt in here, I tried to end myself. 12 
AJ: Im so sorry to hear that but Im so thrilled that you are here sitting with me today.   13 
MG: Thank you.   14 
AJ: What do you think about resilience in the transgender community?  15 
MG: What do I think of resilience?  I dont think you have a choice, thats what I think.  You dont 16 have a choice but to let your skin get thick or make your skin thick and be resilient.  If youre not, 17 half the time youre dead.   18 
AJ: Do you ever experience harassment in the world or harassment from medical providers or 19 criminal justice systems, police? 20 
MG: Im very lucky that way.  Ive had very little.  I think part of it is a vibe that I put out.  I think I do 21 kind of put out a vibe of, Youre better off not messing with me.  I dont know.   22 
AJ: But not a lot of . . .  23 
MG: No, I havent.  The worst Ive had maybe is somebody clocks me in a store somewhere and all of 24 a sudden I see them peeking around a corner and staring because theyve figured out that, Oh, 25 thats a transgender person maybe.  Or, in their head it might be, Thats a dude.  Its fairly 26 rare for me.   27 
AJ: So even at restaurants you dont get called sir and all of that stuff. 28 
MG: No, no . . . no, but you can see that I havent done a lot of work on my voice.  And part of that is 29 that my therapist advised me not to and the reason given was that she saw a lot of trans people 30 lose connection with their family as a result of voice training.  She seemed to allude to that at 31 least, anyway.   32 
AJ: How so? 33 
MG: The reason was that she gave was the family members then perceived their child or their sibling 1 as being a different person than . . . you know.  By not doing voice training you stay more of the 2 same person in their eyes.  I dont know if I explained that well. 3 
AJ: No, I think you did.  It sounds like she saw that as a way of sort of maintaining your . . .  4 
MG: Stay rooted in who I am or what I was or always have been.  Something like that. 5 
AJ: No, I get that.  Who is the first transgender person you ever met? 6 
MG: Teri Jean Homer.  Do you know Teri?   7 
AJ: I do not. 8 
MG: It was at the book club thing.  And the first time I went to the book club I didnt have the guts to 9 dress.  I went as Mark and met that group of girls for the first time.  When I went there, the only 10 person that was there waiting was Teri Jean Homer  who, ironically, was in the maintenance 11 department at Minnesota State University at Mankato.  My twin sons went to Minnesota State 12 in Mankato while Teri was there and Teri was transitioned so when I told my sons that I was 13 transgender one of my sons goes, Oh, you know, I work in the student union and like the head 14 of the maintenance department is a transgender woman.  Oh wow, thats cool.  So the very 15 first person I meet is Teri Jean, thats the person in Mankato, which is, for those of you . . .  16 
AJ: So it sort of paved the way for your sons to get a little better understanding.   17 
MG: Yeah, there was a connection there, because my son already knew a transgender person  yeah.  18 He had met a transgender person where he was going to school.  And, and, and . . . that was one 19 of the first things I told her . . . she told me, when she introduced herself and told me what she 20 did, I said, Wait a minute.  So yes, it was her  she knew my son, she knew my son, Matt. 21 
AJ: And you guys are still friends? 22 
MG: Oh yeah, yeah.  I think that I might see her on Thursday. 23 
AJ: Is that right? 24 
MG: Are you going?  Youre not coming on Thursday? 25 
AJ: To . . .? 26 
MG: Theres a gathering, theres a trans gathering in front of the capital and theres also an OutFront 27 gathering in front of the capital  both on Thursday.  You didnt know about these? 28 
AJ: Ive been out of town this past weekend so Im kind of out of the loop a little bit. 29 
MG: I dont think its a big thing, but . . .  30 
AJ: But Im certainly going to make it there, Im going to . . .  31 
MG: Well you said you just interviewed Billy, its Billies event  Billie is the one that organized it.  She 32 put it together and invited people on Facebook. 33 
AJ: On Facebook, cool.  Well, Im sure I got an invitation then.  I will check it out. 34 
MG: Youre not paying very close attention to your Facebook apparently. 1 
AJ: Apparently.  So Teri Jean Homer  H-o-m-e-r.   2 
MG: Yeah, Teri Jean. 3 
AJ: Like home run  homer.   4 
MG: Homer, yeah.  Shes like . . . how tall is Teri?  Shes like 63, 64.  Big red head. 5 
AJ: Shes a tall girl. 6 
MG: Yeah. 7 
AJ: So you mentioned a little bit earlier . . .  8 
MG: Older than I am, by the way  thats important. 9 
AJ: Oh, OK.  Well, I hope to meet Teri.  Tell me a little bit about . . . you mentioned earlier CJ.  CJ is . . 10 . Caitlyn Jenner. 11 
MG: You want to talk about Caitlyn Jenner? 12 
AJ: I want to know what do you think her impact on the transgender community has been and is 13 and could be in the future and how do you think she contributes to transgender awareness and 14 progress. 15 
MG: Well there is no question that she has contributed more to transgender awareness than any 16 human being on the planet.  That being said, and there certainly is value in that  no matter 17 what comes after that, its pretty hard to move away from positive just from that, thats the 18 truth.  The world knows transgender like never because of Caitlyn Jenner, no question about it.  19 Her politics are troublesome, right? 20 
AJ: I would agree. 21 
MG: Saying nice things about Ted Cruz who, if he won, I would be worried about being rounded up 22 and being put into a camp.  Thats the way I feel about Ted Cruz.  When somebody who is the 23 most visible person in our community is saying nice things about someone like that, well I . . . 24 heres what I would say, No thank you, Caitlyn.   25 
AJ: OK.  What do you think the agenda for the transgender community should be?  26 
MG: Repeat that. 27 
AJ: If there is an agenda for the transgender community, what should it be?   28 
MG: Thank you, yeah.  I have a very strong idea about that  very strong opinion about that.  What it 29 should be is helping kids get to who they are before puberty.  It makes life so much harder later.  30 Yeah, puberty intervention.  Get the transgender thing to a place where people are educated to 31 the point where they realize that its important to not let a human being go through the wrong 32 puberty.  Thats what I think our agenda should be, and the reason I think that is that if you take 33 that through to later in life, you dont have a situation where a wife feels betrayed by a husband 34 or children feel betrayed by their father  or vice versa for the other gender.  You head off all 1 kinds of trouble  plus, especially when youre male, youre physical appearance changes 2 drastically.  Your skeleton changes, your skull . . . men grow hair everywhere and their muscles 3 are bulkier  all that stuff.  You wouldnt have any of that because up until puberty, males and 4 females are physically very much the same, except for down in their underwear.  Its when 5 puberty hits that a females hips will widen, their breasts will grow, and men will get hairy and 6 get big chins and bone over their eyes and all that kind of stuff.  And then we go through all 7 kinds of pain and money trying to fix all of that later.  All of that expense is avoided and all kinds 8 of hurt is avoided by making sure that human beings dont go through the wrong puberty.  So 9 thats what I think our agenda should be and I feel pretty strongly about that actually.   10 
AJ: OK.  Is there anything that I didnt ask you about, Mara?  11 
MG: Oh sure, but who cares.  We get what we get here. 12 
AJ: We get what we get, this is true.  Anything else you want to share then?   13 
MG: Oh probably, but I cant think of it.  Theres a lot of things Id like to share but . . . yeah, Ill share 14 this.  Transgender people are a great gift to humanity and once humanity finds its own humanity 15 theyre going to regret not tapping us earlier.   16 
AJ: Im ending this right now.  Thats so powerful, so beautiful.  Thank you, Mara.   17 
MG: Absolutely.   18 

