   
Laura Jane Grace Narrator   Andrea Jenkins Interviewer 
    
The Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies University of Minnesota 
June 15, 2016 
 
 
   

 
  
The Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story, while providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source material about the transgender community.  The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for current and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public. 
The Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300 individuals over the next three years.  Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and experiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality.  This project will be led by Andrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist.  Andrea brings years of experience working in government, non-profits and LGBT organizations.  If you are interested in being involved in this exciting project, please contact Andrea. 
Andrea Jenkins jenki120@umn.edu (612) 625-4379 
   
 
Andrea Jenkins -AJ 1 
Laura Jane Grace  -LJG 2 
 3 
 4 
AJ: So, hello.  My name is Andrea Jenkins and I am the oral historian for the Transgender Oral 5 History Project at the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  Today is June 15, 2016, 6 and Im sitting here in Minneapolis with a rock star. 7 
LJG: Something like that.   8 
AJ: Laura Jane Grace.  Good evening, how are you? 9 
LJG: Im doing great, thank you.   10 
AJ: Hey, lets just start with you just introducing yourself.  Spell your name, even though its pretty 11 simple.  I think its the most common spellings. 12 
LJG: Yeah.  L-a-u-r-a J-a-n-e G-r-a-c-e.   13 
AJ: Yeah, thank you.  So whats your gender identity today, what was your gender identity assigned 14 at birth, and what pronouns do you use? 15 
LJG: I use female pronouns.  16 
AJ: She, her, and hers? 17 
LJG: Right  although Im more than happy with they, them, or their.  I identify as trans female and I 18 was assigned male at birth.   19 
AJ: Thank you.  So, Laura, can you just tell me what was your earliest memory in life?  It doesnt 20 have to have anything to do with gender identity, although if it does thats fine. 21 
LJG: Its tough.  Having a kid now of my own, I often wonder what their earliest memory will be and 22 Im trying to think of when mine really are.  I feel like maybe around three years old, I have 23 flashes of stuff.  I come from an Army family so I moved around all the time and when I was 24 from three to four years old I lived with my grandmother in Cincinnati, Ohio.  I remember cars 25 on the interstate in the morning, I remember fireflies at night in the summer, I remember just 26 certain sensations like that of being young and being in my grandmothers house  I think those 27 are probably my earliest memories. 28 
AJ: Wow.  So where were you born? 29 
LJG: I was born in Fort Benning, Georgia  Columbus, Georgia. 30 
AJ: So an Army family then? 31 
LJG: Yes, we moved all over the place.  I only lived in Georgia for about a year, then moved to 32 Tobyhanna, Pennsylvania; Cincinnati, Ohio; Fort Hood, Texas and then over to Naples, Italy 33 where there is a NATO base over there that my father worked for.  And then after that we 34 moved to south Florida when my parents divorced. 35 
AJ: Wow, thats quite an itinerary. 1 
LJG: Yeah, it kind of put traveling in me from a really young age.  I travel now for a living and I go all 2 over the place.  I really got a taste of that at a young age in a way that Im thankful for  that I 3 got to experience living in different places and got a broader worldview in that way. 4 
AJ: Absolutely  experiencing different cultures and languages even.   5 
LJG: Sure. 6 
AJ: Thats awesome.  Did you go to new schools in all of these different places? 7 
LJG: That was the downside to moving around all the time is that every three years or so was 8 adjusting to a new school and making new friends everywhere you went and just kind of having 9 to start all over.  At least when my parents were still together and I was moving around, going to 10 schools that were full of other military kids, at least everyone was in that same boat.   11 
AJ: Kind of in that same boat, yeah. 12 
LJG: Yeah, so everyone kind of knew the deal. 13 
AJ: Right, right.  Did you experience any sort of bullying in school or harassment around your gender 14 identity?  Or around anything really? 15 
LJG: Yeah, I guess really my first experiences with being bullied kind of coincided with my first 16 attempts at expressing gender identity in that way of like when I grew my hair out long when I 17 was 11 or 12 years old or something like that, that was when I started getting picked on at 18 school and labeled as a freak or whatever.  Then when that happens you end up becoming 19 friends with all the other freaks at school and it just kind of goes from there. 20 
AJ: Yeah, right.  Wow.  Did you have siblings? 21 
LJG: I have a younger brother who is about six years younger.   22 
AJ: OK.  And you mentioned that your parents got divorced.  What was it like growing up in your 23 household, moving all around, divorce indicates that maybe there was some tension or some 24 friction.   25 
LJG: It really wasnt until Id say the last year or so of their marriage that I was aware of there being 26 any issue at all.  They kept me fairly sheltered from that or maybe it was just that they werent 27 talking to each other and I just didnt realize that. 28 
AJ: Or they could have been doing great with each other and life was good. 29 
LJG: Yeah, but definitely after my parents got divorced that was a real dramatic shift  especially 30 going from like a position of relative . . . especially within Army families, having a father who was 31 a higher rank to going to civilian life.  Going from military life to civilian life was a real shock. 32 
AJ: I can imagine.  Where did you end up living when your parents separated?   33 
LJG: When my parents separated we moved to south Florida  Naples, Florida.   34 
AJ: OK. 1 
LJG: My grandmother moved there from Cincinnati so we moved in with my grandmother. 2 
AJ: Oh wow, OK.  And thats kind of where you spent your high school years. 3 
LJG: Thats where my adolescence was.  Yeah.  I dropped out of high school when I was a sophomore 4 but for the brief period of time I was in high school, it was in Naples, Florida and thats where I . 5 . . I was in Naples until I was a legal age to move out of my mothers house.   6 
AJ: Oh wow.  So was high school just too . . .? 7 
LJG: Bullying started in middle school and then once I was in high school it just got to a point where it 8 was so extreme that one by one my friends all dropped out to the point where I was the only 9 one left in high school from my friends group and then it was just like, Well, fuck this, Im 10 gone. 11 
AJ: I might as well bounce too, huh? 12 
LJG: Yeah.  I also had no doubt as far as what I wanted to do with my life.  I always knew that I 13 wanted to be a musician and play in a band, so I had no desire to go to college or anything like 14 that.   15 
AJ: Wow, thats pretty . . . so you were a musician in your early teen years? 16 
LJG: I started playing guitar when I was eight years old.   17 
AJ: Is that right? 18 
LJG: Yes. 19 
AJ: What kind of music do you play? 20 
LJG: I play in a punk band now but Im fine with just putting everything under the big general 21 umbrella of rock and roll  that works, its less confusing that way. 22 
AJ: Yeah, because punk music sort of shifts and changes over time. 23 
LJG: And then people like to argue about what is and what isnt punk and whether or not punk is 24 dead or whatever and I just dont even care.  I always boil it down to when youre on the road 25 touring, like if we go into a restaurant and the waiter or waitress asks us, Oh, you all are a 26 band, what kind of music do you play?  Instead of trying to explain, Well, were a punk band 27 that sounds like this, Ill just say, Were a rock band.  Thats fine. 28 
AJ: Oh, OK.  And they get it. 29 
LJG: That ends it, yeah.   30 
AJ: When was the first time you realized that you may not be the gender you were assigned at 31 birth?   32 
LJG: I was four or five years old and there was a Madonna video playing on TV and I remember just 33 being in awe and thinking like . . . not only . . . it was that moment of self-recognition, the first 34 time you see what you want to be in somebody and I was like, Oh, I want to be that when I 1 grow up.  And then immediately followed by the realization of like, I cant be that when I grow 2 up, or, That cant be me when I grow up.  That was the first moment and then shortly after 3 that I also remember . . . 4 
AJ: How old do you think . . . you said five? 5 
LJG: Four or five years old.  Yeah, we lived in Texas at the time so that would have been around when 6 . . .  7 
AJ: Do you remember the video?  Or you just remember it was Madonna?   8 
LJG: I think it was Express Yourself. 9 
AJ: Oh wow, thats a perfect one.  Wow.  So you realized this at a pretty early age, then when did 10 you first start to really express your true gender? 11 
LJG: It was Madonna and then I remember seeing the movie, Rosemarys Baby and in Rosemarys 12 Baby, Rosemary has a really short pixie haircut and that was pretty much the haircut I had at the 13 time and that kind of made it more attainable, in a way  like maybe, Oh, maybe I still could 14 grow up to be . . . I cant be Madonna but maybe I could be Rosemary.  But those feelings 15 persisted and there was smaller stuff like wanting to play Barbies with neighborhood girls and 16 being scolded for it by parents, or realizing that this isnt acceptable behavior and I cant do this, 17 I cant let anyone know I want to do this.  Just that persistence, like of that feeling always being 18 there.  But at that young of an age, I didnt hear the term transgender until I was probably 18 or 19 19-years-old.  I never . . . it wasnt until I probably was 13 that I heard of anyone transitioning  20 aside from that it was always just like supermarket tabloids or terrible depictions in movies of 21 trans people, that was my only knowledge and that was such a mixed bag . . . even the most 22 negative portrayals I felt identification with and it was kind of exciting of - oh, well thats a 23 possibility even though its being portrayed in a negative way, it gave you hope in this weird, 24 twisted, fucked up way. 25 
AJ: I can relate, Ive had very similar experiences myself.   26 
LJG: Right.  Again, I was 13-years-old and I read a news article about Renee Richards and that was the 27 first time Id heard of someone transitioning and then there was some article around the same 28 time about one of the James Bond girls who maybe . . . some kind of similar story of them 29 transitioning or something  just brief mentions that youd hear and the smallest mention just 30 meant so much to you when you were younger. 31 
AJ: Her name is on the top of my tongue, I know who youre talking about. 32 
LJG: It escapes me, but yeah. 33 
AJ: Very beautiful. 34 
LJG: Cossey, is that their last name?  I forget their first name . . . it may come to me.  Caroline 35 Cossey?  Maybe thats right, maybe not. 36 
AJ: Its very close to that and she married some very wealthy man  yeah.  Wow.  And then when 1 did you first see a trans person in person? 2 
LJG: The first time I saw a trans person in person . . . you know, while Ive probably seen trans people 3 and not known it . . .  4 
AJ: Right, exactly. 5 
 6 
LJG:  . . . the first time I recognized someone and being like, Oh, theyre trans or whatever, was 7 probably with the women who worked the street around the house I lived in when I first moved 8 out of my mothers house.  We kind of lived in whatever was the more rough area of Gainesville, 9 Florida, and the street around the corridor of the house where I lived, at night there would just 10 be girls on the street there that . . .  11 
AJ: All trans girls or just . . .? 12 
LJG: The majority of them were trans girls.   13 
AJ: Really?   14 
LJG: And they would just be there and Id be sitting on the corner drinking a 40 of Hurricane Malt 15 Liquor and theyd be doing their thing and Id be writing in my notebook.   16 
AJ: Wow.  Did you have any sort of identity with those women at all? 17 
LJG: Again, then youre in such a defensive mode, in a way  because I was always in denial to a 18 certain extent, but also again it was still not really even realizing that there was the term 19 transgender that I could identify with, just like there was a separation and I never had any real 20 interactions with them other than passing by on the street or whatever.  I remember one of my 21 earlier touring memories with trans people, we were playing in Milan, Italy, and after the show 22 we went to a food cart, the promoter took us to a food cart, and were all standing there and 23 were ordering our food and out of the corner of my eyes I saw three girls walk up and they 24 were ordering food and they were with a group of boys and some of the people in our group 25 that we were with started laughing.  And then they started snickering and then it was pointed 26 out, Oh, theyre transsexuals, or trans women or whatever.  And I remember that moment so 27 vividly because I was like so fascinated, I thought they were gorgeous  heres these beautiful 28 Italian trans women and everyone else was mocking them, making fun of them while I was so 29 fascinated and recognized I only wanted to be like them.  But, that feeling of betrayal, realizing 30 that I was selling myself out by pretending to be just like one of the boys in that situation. 31 
AJ: Wow, yeah.  So you never said anything to the girls at all?   32 
LJG: No.  33 
AJ: Did you make fun of them?   34 
LJG: I dont remember at the time. 35 
AJ: I only ask because I think that you brought up a point that when youre trying to conform 1 sometimes you fall into some of those negative behaviors or internalized homophobia, 2 transphobia, racism.   3 
LJG: Yeah.  And transphobia is something that I still deal with to this day in an internalized way, thats 4 such a big part of the trans experience, in my opinion, of just growing up with self-hate.  You 5 recognize this thing about yourself, youre not telling anybody about this thing about yourself so 6 like keeping that secret about yourself makes you hate yourself to an extent, and ashamed of 7 yourself  youve lived with that shame, you grew up with that shame.  Its unfortunately not as 8 easy all the time as just coming out and then being able to release that self-hate, I still carry a lot 9 of that self-hate with me.   10 
AJ: Wow, thats very insightful and, I think, very self-aware because its real.  I think I probably deal 11 with some of that as well.  So when did you decide to come out? 12 
LJG: I came out in 2012.   13 
AJ: Is that right? 14 
LJG: Specifically, February of 2012, was the first time I told anyone. 15 
AJ: Anyone? 16 
LJG: Yes. 17 
AJ: Wow.  And Im pretty sure youre not 22-years-old. 18 
LJG: Im 35.   19 
AJ: OK.  So there was a long period of time from when you recognized this within yourself and when 20 you came out.  What was happening then? 21 
LJG: There was.  Well again, I feel like its something that people kind of lose sight of, or are going to 22 lose sight of more and more nowadays as the internet is just there and its taken for granted 23 that theres always been the moon, the stars, and the internet.  But pre- the internet, there was 24 no resources, and especially in south Florida.  There was nowhere I could turn to for any  any 25 information on transitioning or whatever, and I probably didnt hear the term transgender until I 26 was 18 or 19.  And then part of my experience was just binging and purging where youd go 27 through these intense couple month periods of extreme dysphoria, followed by this purge of . . . 28 Id have my bag of womens clothes stashed under my bed that Id put in a trash bag and late at 29 night go out and throw away in a supermarket dumpster and promise myself that I could be 30 male and promise myself that Id never do that again  Id never cross-dress again or whatever.  31 And then, for me, my band really started touring around when I was 19- or 20-years old. 32 
AJ: Is this the band Against Me!? 33 
LJG: Yes, that Im still in.   34 
AJ: So you guys have been together for a long time? 35 
LJG: Yes, since 1997, I started the band then.  So when we really took off around 2000 or so, I was 19- 1 or 20-years-old, that for a long time was really easy to distract myself with especially because it 2 kept building.  And with touring we were spending like 250 days a year on tour and then were 3 signing with bigger record labels and bigger record labels, signing to a major label and that is like 4 a roller coaster ride of its own that for a long time I was able to distract myself with.  And I got 5 married and I had a kid and all the trappings, but at the end of it coming off that roller coaster 6 ride and realizing I still feel this way.  Ive always felt this way, I felt this way when I was four, I 7 felt this was when I was ten, 15, 20, etc.  Its never going to change.  And realizing that I 8 achieved all these things that I thought were the things that could make that go away, that if I 9 was some dumb famous fucking rock star that that would push the dysphoria away and that 10 would be fine.  But it was never enough. 11 
AJ: Well once I have a kid and get married. 12 
LJG: Yeah, like, Love can cure this or something like that.  That was the . . . I tried all those things, 13 but that wasnt the case, I was wrong in that way.  And so I eventually . . . everyone has their 14 own timeline, I dont think its right to say that you need to come out earlier or come out later, 15 its just the way it works for different people and the circumstances of your life and that was 16 mine.  But, I really consider it part of maturing to a place of self-acceptance, or realizing that this 17 is me and I need to accept that in order to move on and live a happy life.   18 
AJ: Yeah.  So you got married and had a kid? 19 
LJG: I did.  I got married when I was 27.   20 
AJ: So how old is your child now? 21 
LJG: My daughter is six now, so 2009 is when she was born. 22 
AJ: Oh wow.  A 6-year-old, thats beautiful.  I want to go back just a little bit to this binge and purge 23 because you said something that interests me, you said, You would go to a supermarket 24 dumpster and throw it away.  You didnt even want . . . like the trash pick-up guys to associate 25 those clothes with you even though it would have been really impossible to make that 26 association.   27 
LJG: I mean, that was like part of being closeted for me was that extreme stealth of, I cannot get 28 caught, especially when it was at a level where my band had some kind of fame, when we were 29 just starting out or whatever.  I remember while on the one hand I was throwing away the 30 clothes in the dumpster behind the supermarket, on the other hand some days I was going in 31 the Beauty Mart next door and buying wigs.  And that experience of going in the Beauty Mart or 32 going and buying clothes, youd have your excuse all worked out ahead of time, you know, if 33 youre questioned like, Well, why are you buying a wig? Or, Why are you buying a dress?  34 And youre like, Well, Ive got this excuse that I can give them if they ask me these questions 35 because they are going to ask questions.  So being prepared in those ways and making sure you 36 dont get caught. 37 
AJ: Wow, thats a pretty common thing.  So when you dress in wig and the clothes, did you go out 38 of the house at all?   39 
LJG: Not at first other than when I still lived with my mom.  Id smoke pot on the back porch, do 1 something like that while she was at work, but even when I was in my 20s and lived alone, I 2 would still just be inside.  Later on, once I was married, just because of the life I lived at the time 3  we lived in LA but I had to be in Florida all the time for band practices so I was pretty much 4 living in a hotel often times and I had this separate existence of living in a hotel and so that was 5 really like me kind of like . . . for a couple years, testing my limits.  First it was like OK, getting 6 dressed in femme and then Im going to walk out to the car.  Just that simple thing  you made it 7 to the car and your heart is beating and you sit in the car for a second and then youre like, OK, 8 now Im going to go back in.  And then a little bit further every time and then youre like, Now, 9 Im going to drive the car around or go to this place where I know no one else will be, just to be 10 outside in the open air.  But really small steps. 11 
AJ: Man, youre giving me flashbacks, Laura.  So, to the extent that you feel comfortable, have you 12 had any sort of medical interventions related to your gender transition? 13 
LJG: Medical transitions?  Do you mean like negative ways? 14 
AJ: No . . . well, well get to that but yeah, you can talk about that if you want to.   15 
LJG: Ive been on hormone replacement therapy since 2012, so four years of HRT.   16 
AJ: OK.  And thats pretty much the extent at this point?   17 
LJG: I mean, electrolysis which is like a never ending thing. 18 
AJ: Yeah, thats a pretty heavy duty medical intervention, I would say.   19 
LJG: Right, so just HRT and . . .  20 
AJ: Cosmetically medical some people call it but still, its an intense investment of . . .  21 
LJG: Time and money. 22 
AJ: Time and money and sort of physical discomfort, shall we say. 23 
LJG: Yeah.  But I had a suicidal nervous breakdown after about my first year and a half on HRT, and 24 that was during the period of time . . .  25 
AJ: Really?  Im sorry. 26 
LJG:  . . . but that was during the period of time where I moved from Florida to Chicago.  When I 27 came out I lived in Saint Augustine, Florida, which there was just like no resources whatsoever 28 and Florida, at the time at least, is the type of state where I had to go to psychotherapist for six 29 or seven months to get a letter to give to an endocrinologist to then get on HRT.  It was terrible 30 health care but nonetheless I built my foundation, I got my doctors, I got the people I was seeing 31 for everything and then that kind of got all wiped away and I had to start over when I moved to 32 Chicago.  Im still a full-time touring musician, I still tour 150 to 200 days a year, so transitioning 33 for me has been at that pace  of like in-between tours I can do things or how do I transition 34 while touring on the road?   35 
AJ: Were you still with your wife and child? 36 
LJG: Weve been separated for . . .  1 
AJ: When you started? 2 
LJG: When I started, I was still with my wife yes, but weve been separated for like three years now. 3 
AJ: So you guys talked about it?   4 
LJG: She was the first person I came out to.   5 
AJ: How did she react? 6 
LJG: I think she thought I was going to tell her I was having an affair because I was like, I need to tell 7 you something.  I was serious, like, Lets sit down, that type of thing.  So there was that initial 8 relief of like, Oh, youre not telling me youre having an affair.  But it was interesting in the 9 way that I dont think either of us really understood what I was saying.  I realized afterwards, 10 Oh, Im saying this and this means this.  So it was just a lot, and especially really doing that 11 under media scrutiny was intense, because I came out very publicly  I came out in Rolling Stone 12 magazine.   13 
AJ: Really? 14 
LJG: Yes, and that had its advantages in that I only had to have the conversation with my closest 15 friends and for everyone else it was, Read this and this will answer everything you need to 16 know.  So there was the benefit of that, but then at the same time, I know for her even, it put 17 this pressure on her of like, Are you a lesbian now?  Or, What does this mean?  And just 18 because youre coming out and just because youre accepting this one thing doesnt mean you 19 know all those other answers, but when youre doing it in the context of a huge publication like 20 that or on a national worldwide level, you have to have those answers figured out. 21 
AJ: Wow.  So yeah, she was going through some sort of deep processing whereas you had already 22 done some processing to even get to that point.   23 
LJG: Yeah.   24 
AJ: Do you think the separation was related to your gender identity at all? 25 
LJG: Its hard to say, you know.  I think to a certain extent, sure.  But to a certain extent also . . . 26 
AJ: Its tough, its a tough place to be in a relationship. 27 
LJG: To a certain extent too its just wrong to just put the blame on that.  I recognize my faults as a 28 partner too and especially my reaction, then, to being under such pressure and scrutiny was like, 29 OK, Im going to hide in a music studio then and just work on a record.   30 
AJ: Yeah. 31 
LJG: And isolate myself and put up walls, and then just the stress of everything was something that 32 really made me still unhappy to be around and wasnt really until I had that breakdown, that 33 after that it was like being able to recover to a better place and become a different person.  It 34 was interesting in that way where like I think that, just speaking for myself even, for . . . Im 35 35 now, so at the time 30 years of building up to coming out, thats a monumental amount of time 1 to think about something and whether or not to do something, and then you come out and you 2 expect there to be this immediate mental change and its not there necessarily yet.  And you 3 take hormones or whatever and you expect that to be like, And now Im going to swallow this 4 pill and suddenly Im going to feel different.  But its not like that, its still built and for me 5 having a nervous breakdown was that moment of like . . . of the complete decimation of the 6 male ego that I had been socialized with, it was like the destruction of it  where it finally 7 shattered being able to come back and rebuild yourself out of that, thats kind of what it took. 8 
AJ: Who was that male?  What was his name? 9 
LJG: I dont even know.  That males name was Tom Gable, but yeah. 10 
AJ: Was he like . . . Im surprised that your wife at the time was so concerned that you were having 11 an affair.  Tom was a rock star, isnt that what they do?  Sex, drugs, and rock n roll.  12 
LJG: I dont know, I was never like that.  Im not that type of person.  I dont know.  But yeah, I look 13 back at my life and the person I used to be and Im sad that I was miserable for so long, 14 especially having had the chance to go to so many amazing places and do so many amazing 15 things, that I couldnt have just enjoyed it more.  But I was just so fucked up on what I was going 16 through that it was impossible for me.   17 
AJ: What is some of the more, I guess, joyous things that you have experienced since you have 18 come out? 19 
LJG: Its . . .  20 
AJ: What have been the positive aspects, if you will? 21 
LJG: The positive aspects are just being more comfortable with yourself, being able to be in the 22 moment and going back again to talking about having a suicidal nervous breakdown, it was like 23 being at that point where youre on the edge and knowing you have an out was almost what it 24 took for me to be able to relax and be like well, as long as I have that out, I might as well stick 25 around and see what happens for a little while.  And as long as I have that out, who really 26 fucking cares what anyone else thinks about me.  Fuck it, Im going to live for today, Im going to 27 live for the present, Im going to live in the moment type of mentality as opposed to years and 28 years before being so compartmentalized and thinking about thinking about coming out, 29 thinking about will I have surgeries or will I do this, will I do that?  That was what was driving me 30 nuts and it was getting to the point of releasing from that, that I was able to just live in the 31 moment and be a person and have a life and just be happier.  Thats not to say that coming out 32 is this cure-all and all of a sudden your life is perfect, but it definitely changed me.  It changed 33 my personality, it changed the way I interact with people.  I feel like I make friends in a way that 34 I didnt make friends before.  Even approaching now not being married and approaching dating 35 and stuff like that, its kind of a revolutionary experience in that any previous relationship Ive 36 had, and Id been married twice and Id had however many other relationships dating, but any 37 other time there had always been something about myself that I didnt tell the other person, 38 that I was holding back  that was a secret.  And now theres nothing, its just all there  this is 39 me, love it or leave it.  So, just being able to live like that, I think, is just really valuable.   40 
AJ: Who do you date? And, how do you define your orientation? 1 
LJG: I guess when it comes down to it, I define myself as bi- but . . . I dont know.  Im in a new 2 relationship right now so I dont want to jinx it. 3 
AJ: OK, dont jinx it. 4 
LJG: But nonetheless . . . its hard, its really hard dating when youre a musician alone, its really hard 5 dating when youre a parent alone, so when youre a trans and a musician and a parent . . . I 6 meet people and Im like, Hey, Im a real catch  Ive been divorced twice, Im a convicted 7 felon, and Im trans.  Do you want to go on a date?  Oh, did I mention Im a high school 8 dropout?   9 
AJ: Oh wow.  Emotional rock star.  I got some cool ink. 10 
LJG: Yeah, Ive got some cool tattoos.   11 
AJ: Men?  Women?  Both? 12 
LJG: Yeah, Im attracted to women for the most part.  Ive dated women historically.   13 
AJ: Absolutely.  Well, good luck with the relationship.   14 
LJG: Thanks. 15 
AJ: I hope it continues to bring you joy.  What have been some of the challenges since youve come 16 out?  Other than the whole its hard to date thing as a musician and a parent? 17 
LJG: I think dating while transitioning is an interesting thing to talk about just because dating people 18 who dont necessarily define themselves as queer initially and then you find yourself  like OK, 19 so youre attracted to me so are you attracted to me because of the fading masculinity that you 20 see or emerging femininity?  What is it that youre attracted to in me?  And then recognizing 21 certain situations that youd find yourself in that are really dysphoria inducing where I still have 22 moments of extreme dysphoria even though Im on hormones or even though Im out or 23 whatever.  Doing that as a parent where youre the father of a kid and feeling like, especially 24 coming from a family that . . . a broken home of your own where you picture yourself in this is 25 what was happening when my parents were divorcing, who am I in the roles of the parent right 26 now?  And recognizing certain things about your father in yourself or your mother in yourself, 27 those can be extremely dysphoria inducing.  Other challenges really like, for me, are just based 28 solely of what I do of traveling  like OK, Im in Germany, how can I get my prescription refilled?  29 The nuts and bolts type stuff like that.   30 
AJ: Do you experience any harassment or stares? 31 
LJG: Sure.  Well, Im thankful for punk rock in that way that . . . I learned when I was 13 or 14-years-32 old what it felt like to walk through a shopping mall with a foot-high Mohawk and have people 33 stare and point and laugh.  At this point, too, often times if someone is staring or laughing at me 34 I dont know if its because of the tattoos or because Im trans.   35 
AJ: Or because youre beautiful  it could be because youre beautiful.   36 
LJG: Right, right.  But Ive shut off the reaction mentality to anything like that.  Im able to just carry 1 myself regardless of how people are reacting around me.  But . . . Ive lost my train of thought . . 2 .  3 
AJ: Well, I was asking about interactions with . . .  4 
LJG: TSA is always interesting.  TSA, traveling in the airport. 5 
AJ: Institutions and . . .? 6 
LJG: Even just . . . TSA, Ive had negative . . . Ive had really good experiences going through TSA, like 7 security pat downs, and Ive had really bad experiences.  The bathroom bill thing is something 8 that has been a hot topic in the media lately. 9 
AJ: You tackled that.  Your band played in Charlotte, North Carolina right after they announced the 10 bill.   11 
LJG: HB2, yes. 12 
AJ: HB2, in which several very well-known musicians, I think including even Bruce Springsteen 13 boycotted and there was all of these states that were boycotting.  You made a decision to go to 14 Charlotte and perform.  15 
LJG: Yes. 16 
AJ: Why did you make that decision and what was it like? 17 
LJG: Well, for me it just didnt even cross my mind to boycott.  Im not a citizen of North Carolina but 18 I am a tax payer in North Carolina.  Ive worked in North Carolina at least three or four times a 19 year for the last 20 years  my band plays shows there.  So, from my perspective in thinking 20 about it, its not like the people of North Carolina can be like, OK, were boycotting our state, 21 were not going to go to work and were not going to shop in our stores here.  They still live 22 there, the trans community has to live there, and theyve got to deal with that.  Thats my reality 23 too.  With HB2, I dont even remember the first time I heard about it, just because thats just the 24 way I assumed it was.  Everywhere I go I operate under a fear mentality when it comes to 25 restrooms.  I assume that it could be a problem, I assume that there is a level of risk regardless 26 of what bathroom I go into.  That was my first instance of transphobia was right after I came 27 out, and again I came out really publicly in a small town. 28 
AJ: Right. 29 
LJG: And I was with my daughter at her soccer practice on a public sports field and she comes 30 running at me and shes like, Ive got to go potty.  And she runs into the bathroom and she 31 runs into the mens room because thats the restroom shed been going with me her entire life 32 up until that time. I go running after her and this guy jumps out in front of me and hes like, 33 Wrong restroom, and flexes and he gets in my face.  I realized he knew who I was and he 34 obviously was making this point of it and looking to the left and seeing well theres the womens 35 room and its filled with mothers and daughters who are there for soccer practice too and my 36 daughter is behind this guy in the mens restroom who is going to have just as much of a 37 problem if I try and go into the womens room  I just cant go into either restroom here.  So 38 that, again, is my everyday mentality when it comes to things like that, when it comes to 1 traveling or whatever  it just doesnt cross my mind to change the way I live because of some 2 fucking bullshit law like that.   3 
AJ: Wow.  So you went, which I was . . . you know, I read about it . . . I dont know, I think someplace 4 online and I was like, Fuck, yeah, thats awesome.  Because youre right, the trans people that 5 live in North Carolina, in the city of Charlotte, they dont have an option to not go to work and 6 not go to school and do all of those things, and really they dont have an option to not go to the 7 bathroom because theyre human beings.   8 
LJG: Sure. 9 
AJ: And thats what human beings do.  I thought it was a great point that you made.  It shows the 10 privilege that cis people have to make those kinds of choices when trans people dont have 11 those opportunities.  Any other interactions with police or the medical establishment? 12 
LJG: Yeah, medical community and medical establishment, even around trans doctors  doctors that 13 Ive gone to for hormone replacement therapy, it always blows my mind that the staff is never 14 better trained.  Theyll sir you even though youre coming in there for HRT.  Its like, Do you 15 have no training here?  Has it never crossed your mind?   16 
AJ: Or no understanding of the context of which we are in right at this moment? 17 
LJG: Right.  When I had my breakdown, part of that was caused by a reaction that I was having to 18 HRT. At the time I was on progesterone, spironolactone, and estrogen.  And so what I didnt 19 know at the time was I had a parasitic infection in my intestines that was causing the 20 progesterone to convert into prednisone which was giving me extreme hot flashes and I was 21 waking up at night arms clenched to my chest, like convulsions, and I didnt know what was 22 happening.  So I called my endocrinologists office and I was like, I need an appointment 23 immediately, I need help.  This was like in June or something and they were like, Well, we 24 cant see you until August. 25 
AJ: What?   26 
LJG: I could get better service at Best Buy if I just bought an iPod, what do you mean you cant see 27 me?  I need an appointment, I need help.  And that was kind of part of the motivation of 28 moving away from Florida and going to a place where theres better health care at least, even in 29 Chicago its hit or miss sometimes but there is more resources there and, at least also its 30 informed consent where you can walk into a doctor and say, This is what Im doing, give me 31 hormones.   32 
AJ: Theres an app that some kids in Chicago created around health care and resources for 33 transgender people.   34 
LJG: Really?  Ill have to check that out.   35 
AJ: Yeah, you should check that out  Ill get the name of it for you when were done here. 36 
LJG: OK.  37 
AJ: But yeah, they sort of scoped out who are the best doctors . . . actually, I think its nationwide or 1 people can contribute but they have the whole Chicago scene kind of . . .  2 
LJG: There should be more apps like that.  Im sure there will be more, but yeah.  3 
AJ: So, this has been a really awful week for LGBT-identified people, for LGBT-identified people of 4 color, and Im thinking about the tragedy that happened in Orlando, Florida  south Florida 5 where you kind of grew up, and youre a musician so you spend a lot of time in clubs.  Do you 6 have a gay or trans or queer audience when you perform? 7 
LJG: Sure, thats part of our fan base, yeah.  All of that is terrifying to me on so many levels.  Again, as 8 you said, I grew up in Florida, I grew up going to shows in Orlando, I grew up playing shows in 9 Orlando.  I know where Pulse nightclub is, I know that neighborhood, I know that area.  Even 10 prior to the Pulse club incident, with what happened at the Bataclan in Paris.  Ive played the 11 Bataclan, I can picture what its like to be in that club.  In those situations, Ive done a couple of 12 interviews where people will ask you like what kind of advice would you give  what the fuck am 13 I supposed to say to that?  What advice can you give to anyone in that situation?  Its not like 14 theres some trick, like if you would have known that you would have survived or something like 15 that.  Its just terrifying and its terrifying from a performer or from an artist, from someone who 16 is in music  the idea that that is just supposed to be like a sanctuary that people go to to 17 release, to dance, to have a good time, to get away from all the bullshit in their life.  And to feel 18 like those are no longer safe spaces and that that is only becoming more and more of a reality in 19 the world is terrifying, just completely terrifying on so many levels.   20 
AJ: Yeah.  I dont know what advice but I guess what do you think youre going to do in response?  21 Like your response to this whole boycott in North Carolina was to stand strong in the face of 22 discrimination and then, you know, just flat out oppression.  What do you think youre going to 23 do in this situation?   24 
LJG: I think that thats all you can really do is stand strong and continue to do what youre doing and 25 not change in that way.  I want everyone who ever comes to our show to be safe and to leave 26 alive.  I dont know what I can do other than continuing to put myself out there, to be out there, 27 to continue playing shows, to continue to be a part of the music community.  I think, though, 28 that outreach and activism and being visible as a trans person in general is really important right 29 now.  We definitely, over the past couple of years, have had more and more visibility as a 30 community, if you want to say it like that.  And, I think that visibility goes a long way.  Im not 31 sure of the real world translation yet  you know, like sometimes it just seems like media and 32 youre not sure necessarily what the media . . . how that correlates to real life.  A good example 33 of that was when I was flying down to start that tour in North Carolina, I was flying from the 34 Detroit airport and going to my gate and theres a huge wall-size projection of the attorney 35 general speaking, that speech that they gave where theyre talking about how the Obama 36 administration sees the transgender community and, We have your back.  And that was huge 37 and Im standing there and theres passengers walking by right and left and theyre all seeing 38 that too.  I never could have imagined a moment like that happening. 39 
AJ: Yeah, that was incredible.   40 
LJG: So I went over to the bar by my gate after watching for that a second and standing there at the 1 bar and the bar isnt crowded, theres a group of employees down at the end of the bar and I 2 could overhear them talking about trans people and they were saying some really ignorant shit, 3 so I walked over to them and I was like, Actually, youre wrong about that for this, this, and this 4 reason.  Im transgender . . . and I just went off in a nice non-confrontational way, but I was just 5 like . . . I was giving them . . .  6 
AJ: Yeah, setting the record straight. 7 
LJG: Yeah, giving them some knowledge.   8 
AJ: Yes. 9 
LJG: And I could tell from a couple of their faces that it was blowing their mind that this thing on the 10 TV was all of a sudden coming into real life  and it was real.  But then the first person to 11 respond, the response to me was, Is it true that Caitlyn Jenner wants to go back to being a 12 man?  And it was just like . . . a total forehead-slapping moment of just like  fuck, does that 13 kind of visibility do any good?  Or does it just continue to . . . I dont know, sensationalize it or 14 satirize it or whatever?  But everyone is trying to do their part, I guess. 15 
AJ: Yeah, Caitlyn is definitely creating a great deal of awareness around transgender people.  I dont 16 know, sometimes its not . . . you know, its one story and part of the reason why Im doing this 17 project is because I want to try to have as many stories, have as many people be visible as 18 possible and tell their stories so that the Caitlyn Jenner narrative doesnt become the only one 19 that people are familiar with. 20 
LJG: Which is so super important.  I mean, from my political point of view, I identify as an anarchist.  21 So I have an automatic fear of anyone who is like, I am the leader, I am going to lead the 22 transgender community.  Im like, Fuck no, no one is leading me, no one is speaking for me.  I 23 dont want to speak for anyone else either.  I can speak for my experiences and I can talk about 24 my opinions but I dont ever want to pretend to represent somebody or speak for them.  The 25 idea of these self-anointed leaders in that way, I really shy away from.   26 
AJ: Yeah, yeah.  And it feels like, in many ways, the media sort of anointed Caitlyn  maybe even 27 unfairly.  But yeah. 28 
LJG: Its tough . . . I met Caitlyn once, but I never read that . . . was it Vanity Fair?   29 
AJ: Right. 30 
LJG: I didnt read the Vanity Fair article, I didnt see, was it Barbara Walters?  I didnt see the Barbara 31 Walters . . .  32 
AJ: I did see the . . . it wasnt Barbara Walters, it was . . . another woman. 33 
LJG: I didnt see the interview, Ive never watched the Kardashians, Ive never watched the new 34 reality show, Ive just kept out of it.  I know that I can have respect and be like, OK, youre 35 trans, I understand some part of your experience and I can give you love and respect from a 36 distance and support from a distance, but I dont need to participate in that aspect of it to be 37 able to do that.   38 
AJ: When you guys met did you have a conversation or was it just a brief . . . ? 1 
LJG: It was kind of intense, actually.  I went out to play this . . . a couple of songs on a rooftop in 2 downtown LA for a friend of mine who is premiering a show they were doing and Caitlyn 3 showed up and it was like Caitlyn and cameras.  So it was like, Oh shit, and all of a sudden 4 youre on camera and someone is holding a boom over your head.  So it was immediately . . . 5 you could tell that Caitlyn was on and OK, now I have to be on too.  It was not like a real human 6 experience in that way.   7 
AJ: Wow. 8 
LJG: But they were still . . . they were nice, I have no reason to speak ill of them. 9 
AJ: Sure.  No, and Im not looking for that at all.  Ive never met her.  Some of the political views that 10 she expresses are problematic and challenging. 11 
LJG: Theyre more than problematic, theyre just fucked.  But, yeah. 12 
AJ: Keep it real.   13 
LJG: Seriously though, the idea of being an out trans person and being against marriage equality is 14 something I cannot understand. 15 
AJ: Yeah, yeah  well, thats Caitlyn.  So, that brings me to a question about what do you think the 16 relationship is between the L, the G, the B, and the T?  Do you think that sort of loose group of 17 people should be organizing together, particularly in this time of post-Orlando?  I think were 18 going to be using that kind of language now. 19 
LJG: Its tough in that . . . I understand a lot of the arguments that are made for and against that kind 20 of inclusion.  I get that transgender, being transgender, is about gender identity not sexuality, so 21 when you lump the groups together like that it kind of confuses people in that way about what 22 being transgender really is.  But at the same time, and obviously I dont know and I dont want 23 to concede to any kind of media speculation about what the killers motivations were for what 24 they did in Orlando, but if that person is going into a nightclub and theyre homophobic and 25 theyre killing everyone in there  trans or just gay or however they identify, that person sees a 26 trans person the same as they see any other queer person.  So that umbrella of homophobia 27 includes trans people in it, so that makes sense to me too, that you are like allies in that way and 28 there is that solidarity and the general even like . . . even if you want to like expand it to a 29 greater, larger freak umbrella if you want to identify in that way.   30 
AJ: Like my girl Kate  Bornstein, that is. 31 
LJG: Yeah.  Totally.  I was following you there.  Kate with a K.  And I like that, I love the way Kate 32 Bornstein speaks about that stuff.  But I dont know, Im still so nave and idealistic in some ways 33 too  cant we all just be human beings?  You know, lets just all be human beings and have love 34 and respect for each other.   35 
AJ: Yeah, well Ive been out for 23 years and I still feel the same way, Laura.  I dont think its about 36 being optimistic and nave and I hope you never give up that optimism. 37 
LJG: Thanks, you too.   1 
AJ: Man, so what is your relationship like with your birth family now?  Your mom, your sister, your 2 grandmother. 3 
LJG: Brother.   4 
AJ: Oh, brother  Im sorry. 5 
LJG: No, thats all right  no worries.  My grandmother, unfortunately, passed away about 15 or 16 6 years ago now.  I havent spoken to my father since coming out, my mother and my brother are 7 fine  totally fine. 8 
AJ: You guys have Thanksgiving together when you can. 9 
LJG: Yeah, holidays sure.  Obviously, my mom loves having a granddaughter.  Definitely there was a 10 period of adjustment, I think, that everyone kind of like . . . when you come out to people, thats 11 why sometimes I give people the advice of its sometimes better to not come out in person with 12 somebody because they need this period of time to process the information on their own, which 13 they cant do in the same way if youre sitting there looking at them. 14 
AJ: Sitting there waiting for them to . . .  15 
LJG: Waiting for them . . . how are you going to react?  So giving them space to process the 16 information. I think, sometimes is a little healthy.  Not to say that that is across the board, just 17 like . . . I recognize that within my family people needed to process in their own way.  That 18 doesnt mean that it was a negative thing, they just had to process. 19 
AJ: Wow, thats . . . I think thats some pretty good advice.  How is the band?  You guys are still 20 together so clearly they . . . but, you know, did you have the option to tell them from a distance? 21 
LJG: No, I told them all in person so that was . . . and that was an incident where I was like maybe I 22 should have not told everyone together in person like this.  I didnt intend on coming out to 23 them when I came out to them.  We were having a conversation in the studio and I was starting 24 to get frustrated because I couldnt fully express my point, because the part I was leaving out 25 about my point was the fact that I was trans and it was just in relation to some song lyrics or 26 whatever.  So I came out and I was looking across the room and everyone looked like I had drop-27 kicked them in the face.  They were just like . . . they didnt know how to react.  We hung out for 28 a couple more minutes and they all left and then after that it was pretty easy, where we were 29 just like, OK, see you at practice tomorrow.  Like the only real difference was pronouns.  But, I 30 think, for them it gave them a little more insight into why times in the past I had been upset by 31 things that they didnt understand.  Like a small example of that would be Andrew, who used to 32 play bass in the band, before wed go on stage sometimes he would be like, All right boys, lets 33 do this, and give us a pat on the back and my skin would fucking crawl every time that would 34 happen.  Im sure he didnt understand why that would set me off, he just thought he was 35 getting ready to go on stage and we were all having a good time.  But small things like that 36 where they would never have been able to guess were triggering to me.   37 
AJ: Because bands are really close knit. 38 
LJG: Its like being married to three other people. 1 
AJ: Right  you travel together, you eat together, but then when youre on stage there is this 2 synergy and energy that happens.   3 
LJG: The sex is on stage, thats the sex.   4 
AJ: So you guys are still together.  Is there any tension there?   5 
LJG: No.  My band has gone through line-up changes and definitely after coming out things were 6 different.  Thats not in a bad way, but things changed.   7 
AJ: You changed. 8 
LJG: Totally.  That just set off so many other changes in my life that I didnt realize were going to 9 happen  like coming out, part of wanting to come out was wanting change, but I didnt realize 10 the full extent of the changes that would happen around coming out.   11 
AJ: Wow, man.  What do you think the future is going to be like for the trans community?  For 12 gender identity as a broad concept?   13 
LJG: You know, I hope that transgender visibility just shakes the core of . . . like the foundation of 14 gender.  I want there to be such change in the way society and culture interprets gender and the 15 way people are accepting of people who dont fit into the binary.  And I think continued visibility 16 pushes for those changes and I think that . . . I often say that its hard to fault people who are 17 ignorant because they had a lack of education.  If you think back to . . . I dont know, like your 18 high school experiences with sex ed and what a joke that was. Schools arent even allowed to 19 tell kids to wear condoms, there was no gender course, nothing is ever explained to anybody.  20 So if your parents were uneducated about gender, and their parents were uneducated about 21 gender and so on and so on, then you just kind of have to break that cycle and hope that people, 22 as they become more educated and society as a whole, that they will become more tolerant and 23 more accepting.   24 
AJ: Yeah, there are so many young people coming out now  or people coming out at much, much 25 younger ages, as children.   26 
LJG: Right. 27 
AJ: So, it seems like people are starting to become educated and, as you noted, the more were 28 visible and the more were telling our stories the less opportunities for people to feign ignorance 29  like, I just didnt know. Information is out there now and even though I definitely grew up in 30 the pre-Google world, it is here now and that education does exist so people can find out today 31 if they choose to.   32 
LJG: Sure.  And beyond education too, like the real hope also is for laws to change, for trans people 33 to like be protected.  And thats beyond the bathroom part of something like HB2, like taking 34 away the right for trans people to sue at a state level for discrimination  like thats fucked up.  35 The problems that trans people have faced with jobs, with housing, with health care - thats 36 fucked up, that needs to change, people need protection. 37 
AJ: Right.  You mentioned North Carolina, its not just trans people.  Nobody can sue for 1 discrimination whether youre straight, gay, or whatever.  They took those options away from 2 everybody so it really is impacting a much broader group of people and potentially impacts us 3 all, not just trans people.  So what is the music like, or what are the lyrics like, in Against Me!  Is 4 it sort of trans inspiring? 5 
LJG: Every album is different, every album is like a different snapshot of a period of time  definitely 6 historically as a band weve had a lot of political songs, a lot of anti-war songs, a lot of anarchist 7 songs.  I dont know, I write love songs too.  Were all over the place. 8 
AJ: Is there anything that you do that you think does appeal to trans audiences?  Or queer 9 audiences? 10 
LJG: Sure.  Well I mean like our last full-length record, in particular, was called Transgender 11 Dysphoria Blues and there was a lot of songs that were really trans centric, even just on a 12 surface level.   13 
AJ: Right. 14 
LJG: But I think that what I found, and what I really loved . . . 15 
AJ: Did you write that?   16 
LJG: I did, yeah.  But what I really loved and what I found is that when you relate that to cis people or 17 people who dont have that experience and when they realize the emotions of feeling like you 18 dont fit in, feeling confused, feeling depressed, feeling isolated, feeling self-hate, those are . . . 19 when you distill it down to that, those are more universal feelings that everyone can certainly 20 identify with, to some extent at least, that I think makes being trans more relatable and more 21 understandable to an audience.   22 
AJ: Cool.  Do you think youll ever pursue any additional sort of medical interventions related to 23 your gender identity? 24 
LJG: I have no clue.  Again, going back to living in the moment, that was something that, even after I 25 came out, I had to really learn.  I will drive myself insane if Im thinking like five steps ahead of 26 like, Well, I want to schedule this surgery and I want to do that, when I still havent even 27 finished electrolysis or something like that.  And then the idea too of . . . that was kind of like 28 coming out really publicly, I sometimes wish I would have had more time  like to be further in 29 my transition, and then feeling like OK, now Im coming out and people are going to see me and 30 now Ive got to fit into this new box.  I was in this old box and now Ive got to fit into this new 31 box, people expect me to come out fully formed or something.  So being under that kind of 32 pressure in a spotlight or whatever and trying to make decisions about surgery or things like 33 that, I dont necessarily think are healthy because then youre running the risk of like well who 34 am I doing this for?  Am I doing this so that Ill pass to you?  Or is it for me, to affirm myself?  Or 35 is it affirming you?  So I really just have to take everything as a moment by moment thing to 36 make sure the way I feel about it is the way I feel about it and its not influenced by someone 37 else.   38 
AJ: Wow.  It seems like youve got a lot of stuff kind of figured out, or at least a way of thinking 1 about the things that you havent quite figured out yet. 2 
LJG: Sure.  And going back one more time to HB2, thats one of the really fucked up things about it 3 too is that it puts that pressure on people to have surgery.  Its saying that youre . . . even if you 4 had some identification, if you dont pass that you still cant use that bathroom or that there is 5 going to be a problem so then youre putting young people into a situation where they think 6 that in order to transition or to be happy with themselves, theyve got to break their face open.  7 Thats a fucking healthy thing to teach people, that doesnt mean that its wrong to have 8 surgeries and if you want those surgeries  have those surgeries.  But no one should feel 9 pressure to have a surgery that theyre not sure about.   10 
AJ: Yeah.  Well said.  Laura, is there anything that I havent asked you that you think is really critical 11 for us to know about you?  You know, I guess . . . how has coming out impacted your musical 12 career?  Clearly the band is still together, youre still selling out shows, but is it different from 13 before?  Has it increased from before? 14 
LJG: Its like yes and no its different.  Its always been different, just like if youve . . . like Ive been 15 doing this for 20 years, so the first five years were different from the next five years, or different 16 from the next five years or different from the next five years.  But at the same time, despite 17 whatever peoples perception of my band, we never got too big.  Weve just been lucky that 18 weve been able to make a living doing this and going and playing the same circuit year after 19 year and coming back into town. 20 
AJ: So you almost got like a routine, a fan base all over? 21 
LJG: Ive been playing Triple Rock and 1st Avenue for 15 or 20 years and its awesome. 22 
AJ: Is that right?  Wow, OK.  Well Ive got to catch a show down at the Triple Rock one of these days.  23 So you guys are in town to play this weekend?   24 
LJG: On Friday, yeah. 25 
AJ: Where are you playing? 26 
LJG: At The Fine Line. 27 
AJ: The Fine Line.  Awesome.  Laura, thank you so much for sharing a little time and a lot of your 28 personal journey. 29 
LJG: My pleasure. 30 
AJ: On this ride called gender identity.  Transgender, that means its moving from one place to 31 another place, so it absolutely is in motion.   32 
LJG: Its in motion, for sure.   33 
AJ: Its been my honor to talk with you and get to know you a little bit.   34 
LJG: Thank you, my pleasure and respect for the project that youre doing.  Best of luck with the rest 35 of it.  36 
AJ: Thank you, until we meet again.   1 
LJG: Yeah. 2 
AJ: All right. 3 

