   
Sayuri Hernandez Narrator   Andrea Jenkins Interviewer 
    
The Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies University of Minnesota 
September 12, 2016 
 
 
   

 
  
The Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story, while providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source material about the transgender community.  The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for current and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public. 
The Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300 individuals over the next three years.  Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and experiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality.  This project will be led by Andrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist.  Andrea brings years of experience working in government, non-profits and LGBT organizations.  If you are interested in being involved in this exciting project, please contact Andrea. 
Andrea Jenkins jenki120@umn.edu (612) 625-4379 
   
 
Andrea Jenkins -AJ 1 
Sayuri Hernandez  -SH 2 
 3 
 4 
AJ: So, hello.  My name is Andrea Jenkins and I am the oral historian for the Transgender Oral 5 History Project at the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  Today is September 12, 6 2016.  Im on campus here at the University of Minnesota in the Anderson Library and today I 7 have the pleasure of interviewing Sayuri Hernandez.  Did I say that right? 8 
SH: You did, hi.    9 
AJ: How are you?   10 
SH: Im well, Im good.  Im excited. 11 
AJ: Wonderful.  Sayuri, why dont you just state your name and how you spell it, and then state 12 your gender identity today, your gender assigned at birth, and your pronouns. 13 
SH: OK.  Should I . . . hi, people.  Should I be looking at you or looking that way? 14 
AJ: Just look right at me. 15 
SH: OK, looking at you.  My name is Sayuri River Hernandez.  The first spelling is S-a-y-u-r-I, the 16 origin is actually Japanese.  I discovered it through the story of Memoirs of a Geisha.  The name 17 actually means small lily and I have a lotus lily on my chest and Im small, my parents are petite.  18 I picked it because the story of Sayuri in Memoirs of a Geisha, she rises like a phoenix from the 19 ashes.  She was malnurtured by her family and cast away into a position of being a maid for a 20 geisha house and then she rises into her own as one of the most legendary geishas and when 21 she made her debut in the movie, everything stood still and all you could do is look.  Here I am, 22 Sayuri, Im here.   23 
AJ: How do you spell it? 24 
SH: S-a-y-u-r-i.   25 
AJ: OK. 26 
SH: Yup.  And then I picked . . . actually I was in a group for chemical dependency with this kind of 27 folky-lesbian girl.  She helped me pick River.  I identify as a child of the river because of my 28 religious faith and river, ever change/ever flowing.  It was a little hippie.  So, yeah. 29 
AJ: Wow, the Mississippi River is right outside of the window here. 30 
SH: Yeah, I actually really think that that is part of the reason why Ive lived here for so long.  Ive 31 done a lot of moving around and Ive been here 11 years. 32 
AJ: Is that right?   33 
SH: Yeah. 34 
AJ: So your last name is Hernandez? 35 
SH: Yeah, Hernandez.   1 
AJ: How do you spell that? 2 
SH: Its H-e-r-n-a-n-d-e-z.   3 
AJ: OK. 4 
SH: Im Puerto Rican, German, and Irish. 5 
AJ: Puerto Rican, German, and Irish.  Whats your gender identity? 6 
SH: My gender identity is heterosexual female.   7 
AJ: OK.  What was your identity assigned at birth? 8 
SH: I was assigned at birth a genetic man - male.  And I prefer she . . . I dont even really like girl, 9 especially if its . . . I know they mean the best, but gay boys go, Hey girl.  Im not into that, 10 thats not my thing.  Lady, I like Doll, I like Babe.  I dont mind Bitch . . . you know, if somebody is 11 just . . .  12 
AJ: If you know the context of how people are using it. 13 
SH: Yeah, yeah, yeah  totally. And not in a way where its being . . . Im a feminist but not when its 14 being derogatory towards the female gender. If a man were to say that to me in a way where it 15 was just more of . . . with an intimacy, Id be OK with that.  But I mean its just because . . . like 16 Latrice Royale from RuPauls Drag Race says, You know what bitch means?  Its being in total 17 control of herself.  Strong personalities do get mistaken for bitches sometimes.   18 
AJ: This is very true.   19 
SH: Yeah. 20 
AJ: Yeah.  A man, its called being a leader and in a woman its called being a bitch.   21 
SH: Yeah, one of the things . . . Ive only been transitioning for a year.  I did live as a girl when I was 22 15 for a summer, but I got scared.  The examples I had of trans life and more so like maybe fluid 23 drag queen and such was a lot of chemical dependency and prostitution and such. Something 24 within me as a 15- or 16-year-old told me that I didnt want to live that kind of life so I went back 25 home to my family and continued on in high school.  But the whole idea that a woman is not 26 supposed to be outspoken, thats where my feminism comes in, Im sorry.  If theres a situation 27 where I need to say something, I will. 28 
AJ: Youre going to speak up.   29 
SH: I will, yeah.  I really truly . . . I remember seeing a documentary of James Baldwin . . . or no, 30 Bayard Rustin. 31 
AJ: Bayard Rustin, yeah. 32 
SH: Hes one of my favorite, favorite . . . hes one of my idols, one of the influential people in my 1 story.  I saw him saying, What we need is a group of angelic troublemakers.  I identify also as 2 an angelic troublemaker.   3 
AJ: I love that phrase  angelic troublemaker.  So where were you born? 4 
SH: I was born in Houston in a hospital that was for people who, low income.  Its a famous hospital, 5 Jefferson Davis Hospital.  Ironically, Ive never been back there to see it, but I was living in 6 Michigan and one day, out of the blue, ironically on this Sunday morning news in Flint, Michigan, 7 it said, Today in Houston, Jefferson Davis Hospital was imploded to the ground.  So I knew and 8 God knew that I always wanted to, or my creator  whatever you want to call yours, I wanted to 9 go see that someday and I watched it go to the ground.  Im like, Thank you, God.  So at least I 10 saw it before it was completely gone. 11 
AJ: All right.  Whats your earliest memory in life, Sayuri?  The first thing you remember. 12 
SH: The first thing I remember is either dancing in front of the TV to the Solid Gold Dancers in a big 13 T-shirt, as a 3-year-old or when my dad was willing to buy me platform kids toy heels  the ones 14 in the 1970s with a rainbow strap.  My mom wasnt very happy but my dad was willing to 15 accommodate what I was drawn to, within my instincts. 16 
AJ: So as a little boy, your dad was going to buy you platform . . .  17 
SH: He did. 18 
AJ: He did buy you platform heels. 19 
SH: Also too, I was a bit of a wanderer as a toddler, to the point where my mom had CPS, Child 20 Protective Services, called on her.  I would just leave playgrounds and stuff, I was just kind of . . . 21 already, I just wanted to travel.  Ironically, I traveled as an adult through the world.   22 
AJ: So youd just bounce, youd just take off? 23 
SH: Yeah, Id just run off.  And so I walked across a busy street, synonymous with four or six lanes, 24 intersection traffic, as a 3- or 4-year-old to get Josie and the Pussycat Underroos from Target.   25 
AJ: What?   26 
SH: Yes, yes.  I loved the Josie and the Pussycat characters, the girls and the cat, they were my 27 favorite.  I wanted to be them.  I loved Hanna Barbera, the cartoon company.  And so I went up 28 to the counter, to the lady, and I said, You know . . .  And she said, Do you have any money?  29 I said, No.  And shes like, Well, you cant have these.  And so I took a pack of gum on the 30 way out the door.  So at even a very young age was rebellious.   31 
AJ: Did you get in trouble? 32 
SH: No, no.   33 
AJ: And this was in Houston? 34 
SH: Yeah. 35 
AJ: What was family life like? 1 
SH: Oh boy.  Well, my parents were addicts.  My dad was a Vietnam Veteran and he had met my 2 mother at . . . she was 16, and my grandmother was very small town, small minded white 3 woman-ish.  She had a mammy when my mom was growing up and such, I heard stories about 4 this insanity.  When she found out that my mother was dating a Puerto Rican, my aunt Vicky had 5 told on my mother, and I think she initially said, If you marry that spic youre out of my house.  6 And so, my aunt had actually told my grandmother that she was having relations with my dad 7 and theres a picture of my grandfather and my grandmother, and this is on my mothers side, 8 with my mom and my dad  she forced her to get married to 16, to this man. 9 
AJ: Your father? 10 
SH: Yes, my grandmother.  I guess her and my mother didnt really have . . . my grandmother and my 11 mother on my moms side didnt really have that good of a relationship, I think it was a 12 convenient way for my grandmother to move my mother along.  She was also very defiant, 13 usually addicts are.  So, I was born when she was 18 and then my brother came three years 14 later.  My mom started to have an affair with a man that would be my stepfather and I just . . . I 15 went through a lot of hardship and disappointing experiences because of that.  He was not a 16 nice person, he wasnt interested in being a father to my mothers kids from her initial marriage 17 with my father.  But, for better or worse, hes the only father Ive really known.  My real father 18 was into the heroin culture in Houston and chose addiction and prostitutes and working . . . he 19 just couldnt be a father, he wasnt able to. 20 
AJ: Wow, thats kind of tough. 21 
SH: It was.  As a woman I have daddy issues  like Rihanna or Lana Del Ray, Im very that. 22 
AJ: Who Del Ray? 23 
SH: Lana Del Ray.  They say Lana Del Ray and Rihanna, they exhibit daddy issues  they want 24 somebody to save them or take care of them and kind of like danger and seduction. 25 
AJ: I dont know who Lana Del Ray is. 26 
SH: You dont.  Im going to send you some good songs of hers.   27 
AJ: OK, shes a singer. 28 
SH: Yeah, shes kind of white hot, but death wishy and beautiful and sings almost like Nancy Sinatra 29 back in the day.  Shes really cool.   30 
AJ: Oh wow. OK.  So you have one sibling? 31 
SH: Actually, I am the oldest of five.  With my stepfather, my mother had three daughters, so I have 32 three beautiful sisters. I have three stepbrothers and sisters from my dads marriage, so there is 33 a birth order characteristic concept where people take . . . they tend to have traits according to 34 their birth order and I have character traits, birth order characteristic traits of first born and 35 fourth born.  They would weave in and out of our household according to what was going on 36 with their mother, so they would be there/they wouldnt be there.  They would be there/ they 1 wouldnt be  sporadically.   2 
AJ: Wow.  Do you get along with your siblings? 3 
SH: Hmmm, well.  I come from a family that is not very big on communication, shoving things under 4 the rug, and family not being a real priority.  I just kind of, Oh, were going to all act like we 5 know each other really well when we have family vacation but nothing really past that.  I know 6 that my mother was really close to her sisters in her family, my stepdad was very estranged 7 from his family and also my real father was very estranged with his siblings.  Resentments and 8 rivalries and, Im never talking to you again  that kind of thing.  So my siblings and myself, we 9 all live in different states.  Were a very colorful family.  I have a gay brother, he was military, his 10 husband is a lifer in the military, they just had a baby. 11 
AJ: Oh wow. 12 
SH: Yeah, one of my sisters was also military and shes so humble and selfless, shes that energy in 13 my immediate family.  She surrogately carried my brothers husbands seed and had a baby for 14 them. 15 
AJ: Wow, thats pretty fascinating. 16 
SH: Yeah, it made me feel conservative.  Im like, Youre doing what for who?  But yeah. 17 
AJ: Wow.  When is the first time you realized that you were not the gender you were assigned at 18 birth, Sayuri? 19 
SH: I think when I wanted to take the girls dolls clothing and put it on my Mickey Mouse.  I stole it, I 20 took it.  Wanting to have the Underoos, wanting to have the heels, I always played in my Aunt 21 Debbies shoes in Conroe, Texas.  I always loved to be able to do that.  I didnt identify with male 22 things, I never have. 23 
AJ: Really? 24 
SH: No.  And then in elementary school I remember just being in-between because the boys didnt 25 want to play with me because I said I was a girl, and the girls wouldnt play with me because it 26 goes against the grain of the social norm of gender binary pressure and norms. 27 
AJ: Wow.  So you didnt have very many friends in school? 28 
SH: No.  I remember playing on the playground a lot in solitude, to where even, later on, in 4th 29 grade, since home life wasnt very therapeutic, I was on the playground and patiently waiting for 30 school to start again.  I was one of those kids that really spoke to the teachers more than I talked 31 to the other students. 32 
AJ: So you had some pretty close relationships with teachers? 33 
SH: I did, invaluable  really, that got me through really school, attending school.  I loved school, I 34 love to learn.  I loved all that.  So, yeah. 35 
AJ: So you realized when you were wanting the Underoos and the heels and all of that stuff . . .  36 
SH: Yeah, and plastic heels and jelly bracelets back in the Madonna days.   1 
AJ: I remember those. 2 
SH: As soon as I saw George Michael with the earring, I really wanted to get one but I was too scared 3 to ask. 4 
AJ: Wow.  So, when did you begin to express yourself?  Were you bullied in school at all? 5 
SH: Yeah, I was called a girl and a fag  yeah.  I never knew it . . . my stepfather was raised very 6 strictly Jehovah Witness, so then therefore that left us with a household of no religion and no 7 talk of it.  Im very spiritual and was always searching for my faith. 8 
AJ: So he was . . . I hate to cut you off, but I just want to be clear.  He was raised Jehovah Witness 9 but then once he became an adult, he shooed all religion.   10 
SH: Yeah, he wasnt feeling the . . .  11 
AJ: Religion. 12 
SH: No. 13 
AJ: And your mom wasnt very religious? 14 
SH: No.  She comes from a predominantly apocalyptic type, you know, intense southern bible belt 15 Christian family. 16 
AJ: Sanctified. 17 
SH: These are end times, what youre doing if youre any kind of alternative sexuality or lifestyle, its 18 an abomination.  My aunt told me that my mother should have drown me when I was born. 19 
AJ: Oh. 20 
SH: Actually when I was 15, I had the freedom and the safety of doing my make-up and dressing as a 21 girl with my cousins Lissy and . . .  22 
AJ: Leslie and who? 23 
SH: Lissy and . . . I think just Lissy, Lizzy, in Oklahoma.  But one night my mother and my aunt were 24 having some beer or whatever, but I ended up getting into a fist fight with my Aunt Vicky 25 because she insisted that I take my make-up off and I refused to. 26 
AJ: Really? 27 
SH: Yeah. 28 
AJ: And you were like 15, you said? 29 
SH: Yeah, 14 or 15.  I never . . . this is a grown woman, very much older than me.  I was going to run 30 away that night and I actually . . . yeah.   31 
AJ: Were you dating at the time? 32 
SH: So when I was 15, I began to . . . I ran away and then I ended up living with somebody.  I asked 1 my mom to emancipate me and to give power of attorney to a drag queen/trans person. 2 
AJ: Really? 3 
SH: Yeah.  She still resents me for that to this day.   4 
AJ: Your mother? 5 
SH: Yes.  She still has resentments about that.  But, the other side of the coin is your husband is 6 abusing me, Im living in fear, youre not strong enough to leave it even though you know you 7 should, why do you want me to stick around?  Thats your mess, Ive had enough of it.  Yeah, so I 8 lived as a girl at 15.  I dated Marines  theyre feeling me, Im 15-years-old.  I was pretty nave 9 though.  I went down to Toledo, Ohio, for a drag contest and I got quite drunk at 15.  I was in a 10 beautiful dress and stuff like that, I almost got raped in the alley by someone.  I was so drunk 11 though, I should not have been that drunk, and the security guard, by the grace of God, came 12 and saved me.  But I got blamed for that by the people I was with, for being too intoxicated.   13 
AJ: Wow.  Its so funny that people victim blame women for mens actions.   14 
SH: Yeah, it is crazy.  Just to give my mom some . . . so this lesbian had said, Youre gay, and it 15 didnt sit with me right.  It was this one, she was kind of like my protector when we moved to 16 Michigan, and I had wrote this boy a letter.  But I had had relations with him, it was like my first 17 authentic homosexual experience.  I felt very dirty and it didnt feel right at all.  I called my mom 18 and said, Dont read that note.  Well, when I got home she was passed out from drinking and 19 my stepdad had me by the neck up against the wall.  And so, I really . . . I really, I think if society 20 looked at the attributes of ones coming out process, I think theres probably definitely a much 21 higher rate of substance abuse and mental health challenges and stuff within the GLBT 22 community.  But my mother, when I was living as a girl, she actually accepted that better.  When 23 Tula was on Sally Jessy Raphael, she taped that for me.  Its funny, I think a mother internally 24 and naturally, when something is truth, I think that a mother has no choice but to 25 unconditionally support that because they know its true.  But I think my mom was right, that 26 something just wasnt right and she couldnt come to terms with it.  I never identified as gay, 27 that never made any sense to me.  I would look at gay culture, like men on men, it really just 28 didnt . . . something wasnt clicking.  I couldnt resonate.  Not to get into stereotypes, theres 29 reasons that are true  Im not into musicals, Im not into furniture.  I just want skin care. 30 
AJ: Glitter?  No glitter, you dont like glitter?  31 
SH: I love glitter. 32 
AJ: OK.  Oh, wow.  You had kind of a tough childhood growing up? 33 
SH: I have. 34 
AJ: And you said you guys moved to Michigan at some point? 35 
SH: Oh gosh.  So we did Houston, Texas; Glen Arden, North Carolina . . .  36 
AJ: Which? 37 
SH: Glen Arden, North Carolina. 1 
AJ: Glen Arden.   2 
SH: Yeah, its hear Asheville. 3 
AJ: How do you spell that? 4 
SH: G-l-e-n A-r-d-e-n. 5 
AJ: OK, just like it sounds.  Glen Arden. 6 
SH: And then we moved to Big Spring, Texas, and then back to Houston, and then up to Indiana, and 7 then Michigan finally.  My stepfather was an engineer and so he would just pull up the roots 8 from where we were trying to get used to, said place, and every time he was offered another 9 $10,000 or $20,000.  So he was a provider, I cant say . . . he was a provider, but he wasnt 10 nurturing nor did he have any compassion or interest in supporting hobbies and such.  My real 11 dad would pay for my gymnastics and as soon as he was unable to they wouldnt help me with 12 it.  So thats actually . . . I went back in the closet as a woman at 15 and what had happened was 13 I was in gymnastics when I was about 11 or 12, I was always too afraid to do back handsprings, 14 back flips on my own, I always had to have a spotter  I had too much fear, which would make 15 sense growing up around abuse and seeing my mom abused.  But, last year in treatment . . . for 16 me, with my spirituality, the convergence of people, just like I saw you out in the hallway. 17 
AJ: Right. 18 
SH: Those moments when people collide, to me that space, that time is God.  I walked in the gym at 19 the Pride Institute and saw this beautiful young Native American girl do a back flip, and shes a 20 woman that just so happens to be trans and thats actually the wording that I use to identify, 21 and she did a back flip and I looked over and I said, Huh, I was always too afraid to do that.  22 And through the process of recovery and going through self-discovery, I really believe that the 23 brain can hide things and store them like a file underneath a vault.  And for some reason, seeing 24 her do that activated that in my brain and the next day in small group it just came out like a ton 25 of bricks.  I was staring right at her and the look in her eyes, I understood that look and I 26 connected with her.  You could see in her eyes she was like, Oh my God, she just couldnt 27 believe what she was hearing and neither could anybody else.   But the first time I was at Pride 28 in 2010, I looked at my counselor, we were sitting on a little couch, and I said, I think I might be 29 trans, and I leaned into her in tears.  The next day she asked me about it and I shut it down, I 30 pushed it away  I wouldnt discuss it, I wasnt ready.  I wasnt able to cope with it.  But I think 31 through not being able to stay abstinent from drugs and alcohol, with being back in treatment, 32 certain variables just happened to where, Wait a minute, why am I always so . . . why do I 33 gravitate towards trans women?  Why do I care?  Why do I cry when I watch RuPauls Drag 34 Race?   35 
AJ: You cry at RuPauls Drag Race?   36 
SH: Yeah. 37 
AJ: Those queens are always cutting each other up. 38 
SH: The victoriousness. 1 
AJ: I know, I know  I understand. 2 
SH: OK.   3 
AJ: But its a very mean show though, its snarky. 4 
SH: Yeah, it is.  Also too . . .  5 
AJ: But its our community, its a part of our community. 6 
SH: Yeah, totally.  I think also too . . . I even cry when I see The Biggest Loser or the Olympics.  I love 7 to see people succeeding no matter what.   8 
AJ: OK.   9 
SH: You know?  Coming from nothing and ending up something.  Its beautiful.  Like you. 10 
AJ: Well, this is . . . I came from a very humble beginning in Chicago.  And I dont know if Im 11 something but . . . Im something, I dont know. 12 
SH: You are. 13 
AJ: But were here to talk about you, dont try to put this out on me, honey.  Whats it like with your 14 mom today?  Do you talk to her, do you communicate?   15 
SH: (pause) I . . . so part of recovery in a 12-step model, one goes to deal with their resentments and 16 make amends.  I went down to my mom and I discussed with her, and it took a couple of rounds 17 because all we would do is argue, and she finally disclosed to me that my real father was the 18 first person to ever give her heroin.  It helped me realize, you know what  I cant blame them, 19 they were just kids.  They had no chance.  But, Im a feminist, Im all about social injustice, I was . 20 . . for me, I think it was the will of the universe for me to walk through the hardships I did to 21 make me the strong person that I am.  Im hyper vigilant, I am very perceptive, I know whats 22 going on, my eyes are open to the injustices of the world because of what I went through.  23 However, I have to deal with . . . as a result of that, I have the diagnosis of borderline personality 24 disorder because of an invalidating environment and my social environment.  For me, thats her 25 fault because she sacrificed the well-being of her childrens mental health and also exposed 26 them to trauma and left them with traumatic events to have within their development so that 27 she didnt have to fend for her children on her own or make the effort to find a new husband.  28 There was a lot of dysfunction.  I find her to be very unaccountable about it.  But my mom, Ive 29 become the opposite of her.  She doesnt like to talk about feelings, I actually tested it.  I tried to 30 put my arm around her  she would only tuck me into bed, there was no affection like, Oh, I 31 love you, muh, muh, muh.   32 
AJ: Right. 33 
SH: I tried to put my arm around her and she started to get squirrely and not feeling it within a 34 matter of like 10 seconds.  I try to talk to my mother about something and if its something she 35 doesnt want to talk about she will jump in her car and leave.  She can be very cold and very 36 selfish in that regard.  But, I just . . . I dont really have anything to say to her.  I dont know her, I 37 feel bad for her.  Ive always just wanted her to take her . . . empower herself.  Ive taken 1 womens studies classes, Im all about the empowerment of women, I am not about the 2 suppression of women.  Im a feminist that likes to wear heels, I will wear skin tight clothes . . . a 3 cami with some Daisy Duke shorts because I work on my body  you know what?  Dont get it 4 twisted, I aint no ho and youre not going to treat me like that either, the slut walk that people 5 do nationwide.  I like to push the envelope on misconceptions and challenge peoples views and 6 filters of what women are.   7 
AJ: Wow.  So today, you got your workout outfit on.  Do you work out a lot? 8 
SH: I actually . . . so, I had a lot of anxiety and fear in school in regards to participating in physical 9 education and I did not want to go into the locker rooms.  Oh, I didnt even realize that  that 10 was probably part of being trans.   11 
AJ: Yeah. 12 
SH: But I got kicked off teams and discriminated against even though I was really into physical 13 fitness.  So as an adult its been a very healing point for me. 14 
AJ: Oh good. 15 
SH: I started yoga about eight years ago and actually became an instructor and a spin cycle 16 instructor, like indoor cycling.  I havent worked out for about three months.  I was working for a 17 yoga organization doing yoga  working and then getting it for free, but due to my transition, my 18 workout goals have changed.  I care about my thighs, my hips, and my abs.  I dont want to work 19 on my arms no more, Im working on trying to get a booty.   20 
AJ: Get the thickness, huh? 21 
SH: Yes, so Im just working on making sure I look good in the heels, honey, and keeping my . . . 22 because the hormones be affecting the stomach a little bit.   23 
AJ: Thats true. 24 
SH: Yeah, so Im back doing it.  I have a sponsee, because as I mentioned Im in recovery.  I have 25 over a year clean. 26 
AJ: Congratulations, thats awesome.   27 
SH: Thank you, thank you.  This period of recovery is the longest Ive ever been clean.  So . . . yeah.  28 Its exciting.  So I started working back out at the gym with my sponsee.  So were hitting it and I 29 was there this morning  yeah.  I am not used to . . . I prefer to be dolled up and be painted. 30 
AJ: Where do you go to work out? 31 
SH: I go to LA Fitness. 32 
AJ: Fun.  Uptown? 33 
SH: Uptown, St. Paul  yeah. 34 
AJ: Thats cool.  Youve got to take care of yourself.  Tell me what kinds of challenges youve faced 1 since you have begun to express your true gender identity.   2 
SH: Yeah, sure.  Oh my gosh, theres so many.  I mean, you know, having . . . Im sorry, I dont mean 3 to be saying you know.  Tucking, a good . . .  4 
AJ: What is tucking? 5 
SH: Tucking is . . .  6 
AJ: I know what tucking is but people listening to us may not know. 7 
SH: OK, so tucking is when a transgender female is placing her toolbox down there in a position to 8 where she can wear . . . where her genitalia is not showing.  You know, Ive heard some trans 9 people  like theyre OK if theyre wearing a dress and they dont tuck, I tuck.  I actually prefer to 10 be tucked now at all times, except for when Im at home and going to bed and stuff.  But I mean 11 if it . . . but anyways, its a matter of within the groin inguinal area, the pubic area, the testes go 12 up into the caves of a genetic males space and then the scrotum wraps around the penis and 13 then it goes back . . . I use like a triangular shaped piece of denim, like from the cuff of a jean, 14 and then the elastic of underwear, like boys underwear, and so the ring of the elastic goes 15 through the double-sided still together triangle and it fastens the junk down there in position 16 and then a pair of underwear to wear . . . it gives the appearance and feel of having a vagina.   17 
AJ: It doesnt hurt? 18 
SH: Sometimes it does.  You can have a bad tuck.  Sometimes the scrotum side is coming out.  19 Having really tight shorts on, which sometimes I like to wear  Ive got everything really tucked 20 and I can feel, like Im really feeling my tuck  its starting to pinch because the penis is going 21 back and the skin is being impacted and such, but as a girl told me before, you get used to it.   22 
AJ: Oh wow.   23 
SH: Its better to use really, really soft denim, because Ive used a little bit courser and less worn 24 down, if you will  less soft.  I was actually contemplating coming up with a silk fabric, like oh my 25 God this is so comfortable, tuck company  like custom tucks, but it probably would take a while 26 to make those as opposed to how much . . . I dont think the revenue would be there, but I 27 thought it was a good idea. 28 
AJ: Yeah . . . 29 
SH: That was a challenge, trying to find the correct size.  Sometimes its a little too thick or not long 30 enough, so its a trial and error of cutting the triangle, which has a . . . its still attached there 31 and at the top, obviously, from a cuff, and finding out what your size is.  When you find one 32 thats pretty much on the money then you take that and use that as a pattern for your other 33 tucks.   34 
AJ: So you sew the elastic on to the denim?  35 
SH: No, so then if you imagine a jean cuff, then a triangle is cut out and that goes in the pubic 1 region, and so the underwear elastic is cut-off on the top and that runs through the jean cuff 2 and so the legs go in on each side.   3 
AJ: Oh, OK. 4 
SH: So if you have the underwear elasticity, that would be together, you would run that through the 5 clamp of the tuck, the fabric  which is a triangle shape, and then keep it in place and you hold 6 everything back as you pull it up.  All this stuff can be found on YouTube.   7 
AJ: OK.  Wow, thats fascinating.  Thats a challenge.  8 
SH: It is. 9 
AJ: Have you had any challenges with employment or housing or other systems? 10 
SH: Yeah.  Formerly in my professional life, I was an executive assistant.  Ive worked for some pretty 11 big deal companies and pretty big deal people.  When I say that, I mean people who manage a 12 lot of people and make a substantial amount of money. I supported the chief officer of the 13 American Hospital Association in Chicago, who was neighbors actually of the Obamas.  When he 14 was about to be elected, her whole neighborhood was cut off.  That was when I was living male.  15 After my transition . . .  16 
AJ: And you were living in Chicago at the time. 17 
SH: Yes, maam.  I was going to Loyola.   18 
AJ: OK. 19 
SH: But after my transition, I dont take for granted nor do I deny that I have lighter skin than most 20 Puerto Ricans and I cant deny that that would have been an advantage for my employment 21 going forward, which is really sad, because I look at my life and I look at people and Im like, you 22 know  theres a lot of competition out there and especially within minorities.  You see people 23 give up on their hopes and their dreams and you see African American men dealing drugs or you 24 see trans women becoming prostitutes.  We all have goals and we all have things we want to 25 pay for, and so whos at fault really?  But when I got out of treatment I went to go interview for 26 jobs and such and I worked at Burger King for two or three days, but in the neighborhood it was 27 in Im like, I cannot be here with make-up, plus they had the restriction of only natural make-28 up and I wasnt comfortable with that.   29 
AJ: Right. 30 
SH: But H&M, a retail clothing company, theyre very pro-trans, they even have trans models in their 31 organization, and I have a friend that was a store manager there.  It was a lot of labor for a little 32 amount of work and I wasnt feeling it and it was stressing me out.  So then I moved on to 33 Nordstrom and I actually applied for various positions.  I showed up to my interview, the girl in 34 HR who met us at the door  she greeted the genetic woman, she did not greet me.  She walked 35 with that girl, I walked behind.  I was due to interview for womens designer and I interviewed 36 for mens furnishings.  I was not contacted about my interview and when I called the 37 department manager in mens furnishings, he reached back out to me because he wasnt the 38 person that interviewed me and he just, no second interview, just told me I didnt get the job.  I 1 advocated for myself and called a different contact in HR and I said, You know, Im a little 2 concerned about how I was treated in my interview process because I was supposed to 3 interview for this and I wasnt.  And so, I just kind of stirred the pot a little bit. And then lo and 4 behold, Im working in fine jewelry and watches.   5 
AJ: Oh really. 6 
SH: Yeah, its seasonal.  Yeah, so I could have ran away with the thought that they dont want a trans 7 woman there, but I pushed it and it worked.  I thought I was the first person at Nordstrom at the 8 Mall of America to be hired, but I think somebody told me that somebody in their history, at 9 that location, that I was not the first trans woman.  I actually experienced some . . .  10 
AJ: I have a friend who is trans who used to work at Nordstrom Rack but thats a little  I mean, it 11 was at the Mall of America too. 12 
SH: OK, yeah.  But some of my trans girlfriend peers, they were throwing some shade that I actually 13 posted on making history because I was working at Mall of America.  Theyre like, Girl, please, 14 youre not doing . . .  And Im like, No, I only posted that, because they thought I wasnt being 15 humble, and Im like, I posted that because I truly thought I was the first trans girl to be hired 16 there.  They took issue with that.  Theyre just like, Know your place, girl, youre not a . . .  17 
AJ: Oh, wow. 18 
SH: But I dont listen, I dont subscribe to that.  Everybody has their roles and yes I am a pioneer. 19 
AJ: Absolutely. 20 
SH: As scary as it sometimes can be, I have things to get done.  It was funny, because I was watching 21 I am Cait, you know . . . Im indifferent about Caitlyn Jenner.  At one time I was very envious 22 about the fact that she could transition so easily because of money.  23 
AJ: Its a lot to be envious of.  She was able to transition in a way that not very many of us get the 24 opportunity to do. 25 
SH: Yeah.  And so . . .  26 
AJ: And publicly, on the cover of magazines and everything.   27 
SH: Yeah, and the family she is related to and such.  I dont know if she would have received such 28 acceptance.  I had a roommate at my sober house and shes like, I dont know why youre 29 watching her, shes such an idiot.  And I wasnt watching the show because of Caitlyn Jenner, I 30 was watching the show to try to hear from all the other trans women about the trans 31 experience.  For the past year, I have been in trans boot camp. 32 
AJ: So you pretty much came out at the same time as Caitlyn Jenner. 33 
SH: A little bit, maybe.  I actually am grateful to her because I think she really kind of paved some 34 road for this to be OK. The controversy kind of opened up the doors for this to be an open topic.  35 Everybody is entitled to their political beliefs, everybody is entitled to the way they do their 36 trans.  When I came out, when I realized that I was trans, I said I am not going to attack other 37 women for how they look and berate them for how they choose to do their . . . how they run 1 their game, and Im not going to do to trans women  theres too much pain and challenges that 2 face us as it is.  I learned in the documentary, Gentrification, the rates of suicide and substance 3 abuse and violence. And so its a little too sensitive and serious of a situation right now in our 4 society for there to be more hate.  Gnarls Barkley said, Hurt people hurt people. 5 
AJ: Thats true. 6 
SH: Yeah.   7 
AJ: Gnarls Barkley, just spell that.  G-n-a-r-l-s. 8 
SH: Yeah, hes great.  Hes like a prophet. 9 
AJ: Barkley, B-a-r-k-l-e-y.   10 
SH: L-e-y, yeah.   11 
AJ: Hurt people hurt people. 12 
SH: They do. 13 
AJ: Thats very true.  What have been some of the joys? 14 
SH: Some of the joys . . .  yeah, Im not used to doing interviews, I apologize for not doing this right. 15 
AJ: No, thats OK  youre doing it absolutely right. 16 
SH: Thank you.  Some of the joys . . . can I say one more thing about employment? 17 
AJ: Yes, please.  Im sorry. 18 
SH: No, its OK.  I just think its important.  So, I have a very admirable work history with my admin 19 stuff as well as serving.  I am friends with the Director of Diversity for a company in town, 20 Buffalo Wild Wings, and I went to an interview there for serving.  I waited in their lobby, as 21 myself  as Sayuri, in a navy blue suit, very professional, with a resume holder.  I waited 45-50 22 minutes to be greeted by a manager during non-rush hours.  As time progressed, my stomach 23 got more butterflies and more anxiety the further it got on the clock.  They did not have my 24 resume, they did not remember that they scheduled it  nothing.  And never returned my call.  25 That would have not ever, ever happened if I had showed up as the genetic gender that I was 26 born as  I know it.  If I had shown up as Damien, which is my former name, I would have been 27 in there right away because they would have saw power and sit on down.  It really, really baffled 28 me.  But I actually . . . thats been the anxiety and the thing that I really try to avoid.  Im very 29 thankful for my job because my employers want me there and it feels so good, even though that 30 shouldnt be the case, to say, Im grateful that you want me and I dont take my job for 31 granted.  But with being an oppressed minority group, eyes are on me so if I do something or I 32 have to watch my actions now, Is she stealing something?  I was accused of being on drugs 33 while Im in recovery at another place, another restaurant. 34 
AJ: Wow. 35 
SH: So I get it now, I really get it  because I was able to use, even though I am Puerto Rican and on a 1 minority status, my appearance doesnt say that.  But now I truly understand what it feels like to 2 be a group thats misunderstood by the dominant group, I really do.  Some of the joys, my co-3 workers at Nordstrom told me I was like a work of art.  One of the main joys is that people 4 within my network and in my community, only know me as Sayuri.  I really like that.   5 
AJ: Thats a beautiful thing. 6 
SH: Yeah, its really nice. 7 
AJ: And they respect you as Sayuri? 8 
SH: They do. 9 
AJ: Do you come out to people as transgender?   10 
SH: I do, Im a tranny.  I own that.  I know that back in the day people would find that word 11 derogatory, but Im a tranny.  I had somebody tell me trans . . . thats not to be used, and Im 12 like, Well, thats you  Im a tranny, honey.  Get it.  I love that word because I found it  I 13 found me, Im free. 14 
AJ: This is a big issue, you know this is a big issue.  I come down on the side of historically its a word 15 that has been used endearingly in our community  sisters called each other trannys and 16 bitches.  But, I know that the word comes out of the porn industry . . .  17 
SH: Oh does it?  I didnt know that. 18 
AJ: Yeah.  Trannys and he/shes and boy/girls and what is . . .? 19 
SH: She/male.   20 
AJ: And then RuPaul, who you mentioned earlier, sort of got into trouble with the community about 21 the word and a lot of younger, predominantly younger and, I think, white  lets just be real, 22 white trans-identified women were like, No, tranny is bad and dont ever use it, its going to 23 pull you apart.  But you embrace the word? 24 
SH: I love it, I love it.  I will . . . I will say, Hello, tranny here.  Hi, how you doing?  I dont . . . Im a 25 person of truth. 26 
AJ: So you dont call other transgender women trannys? 27 
SH: Uh-uh, no.  Uh-uh. 28 
AJ: You just refer to yourself. 29 
SH: I do.  I own it, I love it.  I think its great.  Now on the flip, if somebody called me a cross dresser, 30 the record would screech.  Id be like . . .  31 
AJ: Roll back the tape. 32 
SH: Yes.  That is way different.  I love feeling good and looking good and being on point and being 33 fierce, but from my understanding there is an attraction and an arousal that comes with men 34 who prefer to cross dress and it doesnt have to do with their gender identity.  So I would have 1 no problem taking time hitting the punch clock on my day to say, What did you . . .?  Excuse 2 me?  No, honey, Im transgender.  And when somebody says . . . I had a man approach me, of 3 Muslim faith, but the poor man was intoxicated and stuff, he thought I was a lesbian and then 4 he thought I was a man.  I said, Honey, Im not a man, I have titties, but I will fight you like a 5 man, you better watch yourself.  And then I said, And speaking about men, why are you 6 standing in the middle of the street intoxicated?  You need to get some help.  I really love the 7 idea of people getting along, but its within my core and within my nature and identity, to stand 8 up for myself.  No matter how big you are, no matter how you think youre making me scared, 9 something changes in me and I will let you know I will go toe-to-toe with you.  I dont engage 10 with kids if theyre being silly and stuff.  I really dont like to shout or speak loudly in public 11 places to where Im no longer able to feminize my voice as best as I know how to.  I think that 12 clocks me the most. 13 
AJ: Your voice? 14 
SH: Yeah, because I think the best I can do is probably about there  yeah.  I never really cared about 15 money, I only just like to go where I want to go, eat where I want to eat, and do what I want to 16 do, until I found out I was trans.  Then it was $7000 for the trach shave and the voice 17 modifications, $6000 for my bottom surgery.  Ironically, Ive always really made good money 18 and I have a little bit of anxiety coming back to the corporate world and doing administrative 19 assisting work, executive assisting work because of being trans  Im a little scared.   20 
AJ: Yeah, thats understandable.   21 
SH: Yeah.   22 
AJ: Wow.  So you kind of talked about some of the challenges, and you talked about some of the 23 joys . . .  24 
SH: I had a guy tell me I looked like a movie star on the bus. 25 
AJ: Really? 26 
SH: Yeah, yeah. 27 
AJ: Which movie star? 28 
SH: I dont know, he was probably just doing a pick-up line. 29 
AJ: OK, but that made you feel good? 30 
SH: It did, it did.  I had a woman say to me while I was waiting for my hormones, You look better 31 than me and Im a woman.  You know how to do make-up better than me and Im a girl.  32 
AJ: Oh wow. 33 
SH: But she thought she was giving me a compliment. 34 
AJ: What do you think of that statement? 35 
SH: Thats not cool, thats not cool.  I also had a guy . . . so I was recently seeing . . .  1 
AJ: Yeah, it sort of negates the fact that you are a woman. 2 
SH: It does.  At first . . . its just so funny because my trans has evolved.  At first I thought I was OK 3 with the mixed genitalia  you know, breasts and male . . . Im like, Oh, I can be a hybrid, like 4 from The Fifth Element the movie.  Im futuristic, thats cool.  Things werent a problem until 5 they became a problem, and everybody has the right to choose where they are within their 6 transition, but I do plan to fully transition.  I didnt think about it until I started dating an entirely 7 heterosexual male and his favorite thing to do was perform oral sex on a female, so then Im like 8 . . . things didnt become a problem until they became a problem.  And for me, personally, it just 9 doesnt fit for my life anymore.  I know that its right for me because if somebody asked me to 10 go do it right now, get in the limo and go down to the hospital, I would  without fear.  Im not 11 afraid to do it and I really actually cant wait. 12 
AJ: So the only thing holding you back is the money? 13 
SH: Yeah, the money.  14 
AJ: So, you mentioned hormones, so you do hormonal therapy? 15 
SH: Yeah, Ive been on them for a year. 16 
AJ: OK, any other medical interventions? 17 
SH: I got my nose done, February 1st, by the University of Minnesota. 18 
AJ: OK, nice.   19 
SH: Yeah, that was the toughest thing Ive ever been through. 20 
AJ: Thats kind of painful, isnt it? 21 
SH: Yeah, they did a rib graft.  They took a piece of my rib bone and cartilage and put it in my nose 22 because I had a deviation within my septum so they had to re-build it completely and feminize it 23 a little bit. 24 
AJ: Cool.  No implants today? 25 
SH: No, Ive just got hormones for my boobies . . . or, I mean, I have boobies from my hormones.  I 26 went to the plastic surgeon because I was mis-lead and thought Aramark actually covered breast 27 augmentation, because Nordstrom covers both, but he said he would only be able to give me 28 150cc right now.  He was insistent on it being under muscle and not over muscle and Im like, I 29 dont want something under my muscle, I want it over, but he said it just looks better.  But that 30 would have only given me like a high B and if you think . . . thats not worth the $1200 right now.  31 Im blessed with some pretty good response from hormones.  I have an A cup and I just wear a 32 push-up and I do me, its good enough.  Im so glad . . . 33 
AJ: Yeah, youre a petite lady. 34 
SH: Yeah.  I have a strong personality, I would like a low C. I want power tits.  Im sorry, did you just 1 say no.   2 
AJ: Oh, funny.  So but you would seek full SRS, sexual reassignment surgery? 3 
SH: Yeah.  For me, right now, ironically I get a pretty prominent Adams Apple from my father.  Voice 4 modification with the stitches or with the cut  you know, excision or incision, or the stitches 5 and with the trach shave, that is the most important for me right now.  I really want that so bad.  6 Its a lot of work to feminize your voice, I have to do it on and off and towards the end of the day 7 at work Im really sick of it.  If Im frustrated and I need to vocalize my concerns to my direct 8 reports at my employment, I cant do it in a feminized voice.  When Im really speaking 9 passionately, its really hard for me to keep on that.  When I speak at various meetings or 10 institutions and stuff, in the recovery community, I cant do it the whole time.  I will get excited 11 and I will get passionate, its a lot of work. 12 
AJ: Yeah, and I think people actually respect you more when youre using your natural voice. 13 
SH: Oh really? 14 
AJ: I really do.  Not you, particularly, Im talking generally. 15 
SH: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.  Because I used to actually compensate like this and I tried to really . . .  16 
AJ: Butch it up. 17 
SH: Yeah, as much as possible, and I was a very angry person. 18 
AJ: Have you ever been married? 19 
SH: I have not. 20 
AJ: Any children? 21 
SH: No, dont want none  no kids for me.  Estrogen gave me the unexpected interest in babies.  22 Oh, can I hold your baby?  And Im like, Wait, thats not me.   I was with a man for three to 23 four years, we were kids.  I was 24, he was 22 or something like that.  He had graduated college 24 and moved to California to work for Apple headquarters.  I was in love but we didnt get along 25 and it wasnt meant to be.  Ive been single since, 14 years.  We had rings and stuff but we 26 werent legally married.  My biggest life goal is to be married.  I already know what ring I want, I 27 know what china I want.   28 
AJ: So what labels have you identified as throughout your life? 29 
SH: As far as gender identity and sexuality? 30 
AJ: Yeah. 31 
SH: Queer  that I really embraced and loved. 32 
AJ: How do you define queer? 33 
SH: Queer, I would define as an umbrella term where people dont like the binary simplicity of like 1 youre sure youre gay or this and that.  I remember I would watch porn, like I really like 2 male/female porn  love it, thats my thing, thats what gets my goat.   3 
AJ: Right, so heterosexual porn basically. 4 
SH: Yeah, yeah  totally love heterosexual porn, never watch gay porn.  I couldnt identify with it, 5 and it wasnt 50/50, thats what I would say a bi- person is but thats just my conditioning from 6 society.  So bi- didnt fit, straight didnt fit, gay didnt fit, and then all of a sudden in 2010 I found 7 queer and I liked how it sounded.  I said, Queer, Im queer  yeah, thats what I am. 8 
AJ: Wow. 9 
SH: I tried to be straight as a male, I tried . . . like 18-24 I was always trying to shift my identity and it 10 was really painful.  I actually probably harmed myself by those attempts. 11 
AJ: So you would date women? 12 
SH: Yeah, actually . . . that coming out process in 2012-13, I actually slept with women like once 13 every couple of years.   14 
AJ: Once every couple years. 15 
SH: I mean every couple of years I was involved with a girl, a couple times.  There was an assistant 16 manager of mine who worked at the mall when I was a mall rat, when I was like 18, and our 17 thing  we would get a little drunk, eat pizza rolls, and have sex in the back of my condos where 18 I lived.  Go figure that out.   19 
AJ: Oh, funny.  Has there been a specific person or organization that has had a tremendous impact 20 on you coming out?  You talked about this woman at 15, this trans woman.  Tell me a little bit 21 more about her. 22 
SH: Oh gosh.  She would be no, but this brings me to my exposure.  When I was 12-years-old, Grace 23 Foster  Grace Jones, she was actually the actual stunt double, her name is Grace Foster, she 24 was the stunt double for Grace Jones. 25 
AJ: Really? 26 
SH: Yeah, in Vamp and Conan the Destroyer.  She also appears . . . Im not too firm, forgive me 27 Grace, God rest your soul, Im not too firm of the credibility of those two statements, but for a 28 fact she in the movie Without You Im Nothing by Sandra Bernhard.  She is a back-up singer, 29 shes the thinner one in Aint No Mountain High Enough and I met her at 12.   30 
AJ: Wow.  Grace Foster. 31 
SH: Yes, Grace Foster.  Fierce, like $400 weave, beautiful body  you could have the most racist 32 closed-minded white man and as soon as he sees her, hes just like stuck and hes drooling.  And 33 shes like, You want to see?  You want to feel?  Huh?  Serving it.  I was just amazed. 34 
AJ: Was she a queen? 35 
SH: She was trans.  She was non-op trans.   1 
AJ: Wow. 2 
SH: Yeah, the phoniest person I ever met in my life.  The most amazing person Ive ever met. 3 
AJ: How did you meet Grace? 4 
SH: Well, I met Grace because this guy named Beau Clay, who also has moved on since, he moved 5 from LA  they were part of the peanuts and rage culture, the Nina Hagen/Grace Jones era in LA.  6 They were doing that scene.  And he had relocated to Michigan to open up a mystical pagan 7 bookstore. 8 
AJ: Oh wow. 9 
SH: So I met her through him.  I didnt know she was trans until I was about 18 and that was also the 10 time that I found out that she was HIV position.  This was just at the tipping point of the drugs 11 getting good, to where people were surviving.  She didnt make it, she was losing her hair, she 12 was going through dementia. Yeah, so she passed away when I was 21.  But I remember her 13 looking out the window of this bookstore and she was upset and she was crying and I didnt 14 know why.  I asked her, I said, Grace, are you OK?  And she said, Its just the hormones.  Im 15 a kid but . . . and then I came back downstairs and somebody who later on became my 16 godfather, he told me what was going on.  I remember the church bell, or the bank bell, in that 17 small town ringing.  It was really hard for me but she . . . her strength and her fierceness . . . I 18 embrace it.  I see her as an angel that is part of my life. 19 
AJ: So let me ask you this, what do you think the relationship is between the L, the G, the B, and the 20 T?  I know youve got some strong feelings about this  talk to me, honey. 21 
SH: Yes.  I am not scared of controversy, thats just who I am as a person.  And people might get a 22 little hate on Caitlyn Jenner at me about this, but just through reflecting and through my own 23 process for the past year, I dont understand why the T, because the T represents transgender, 24 that is gender identity, I do not understand why that is included within the LGBT acronym.  I 25 understand that there are alternative lifestyles but I think the concept or the situation that one 26 is sexual orientation and one is gender identity impacts my life and my ability to navigate freely 27 within society.  I think its just a matter of circumstance that that occurred.  As people may or 28 may not know within history, the transgender community at Stonewall in the Queens, they were 29 there fighting in the trenches of the forefront.  So we have to honor that and such, however 30 people . . . I recently went through a situation where a man is too afraid to tell our mutual 31 friends that we are lovers because he is worried they will judge him and think he is gay or bi- 32 because he is with a trans female.  My understanding of the situation, which I was so confused, 33 because before him I was dating an ex-Marine and hes like . . . I told him, You know I havent 34 fully transitioned yet, right?  Before we got too into it, and he said, No, I didnt know. And he 35 was so chill about it and everything, but he was left having to wrap his head around it and at the 36 end of the day he decided no  even though it sounded like we were going to date and continue 37 to see each other.  But the stigma around trans women, people will automatically assume that a 38 straight man is, like I said, gay or bi- because hes dating a trans woman, however this tranny on 39 YouTube, she laid it down into three categories . . .  40 
AJ: Haha, this tranny.   1 
SH: Shes beautiful.  Her name is something Ramos, or something like that.  Shes got red hair and 2 stuff, but she makes all these various videos of her different experiences and different 3 categories and such as a trans woman with guys and why trans women wont date men who 4 have been with trans women before, certain relationships she had, but she laid it down like the 5 types of men that date trans women.  And theres three categories:  theres the down-low dick-6 hungry boys that dont want anybody to know but they start with trans women and may or may 7 not eventually come out as gay, but they are in the closet; and then there are the tranny 8 chasers, the people who actively seek trans women or trans men and are very interested in 9 interacting with a trans womans pre-op genitalia; and then theres the third category that are 10 straight men, they are not into penis, they just so happen to come across a fierce trans girl like 11 Sayuri and like her for her hotness, her body, her soul and how she affects them.  That has been, 12 really, such a beautiful confidence builder for me because both men that Ive been involved with 13 since coming out, that are of any depth . . . I mean, I had some sexual experiences at first, but 14 one was a tranny chaser and thats just not my thing. 15 
AJ: Sure. 16 
SH: I would like to find a man that doesnt objectify trans women, that is actually seeking a trans 17 partner, but my truth is that I will be fully transitioning so dont get used to . . .  18 
AJ: Right, dont get used to this. 19 
SH: Yeah.  It makes me uncomfortable when someone wants to perform oral sex on me, being pre-20 op.  Im not into it, I dont like it.  Its not that I dont like my genitalia, it just doesnt fit what Im 21 doing any more.  And so, the one thing that I really, really want people to understand, and it was 22 hard for me to realize too . . . I went to a trans woman who has fully transitioned, shes post-op, 23 and Im like, This is stressing me out, how do I have sex and blah, blah, blah?  I was able to, 24 with the first guy, stay fully tucked and we had intercourse with him behind.  I was able to stay 25 tucked and I did not feel guilty about that, I didnt feel ashamed about that.  I wanted him to be 26 comfortable because Im a hetero, normative, straight woman and I want to have a man . . . I 27 mean, see  I guess even if I was with a bisexual man, Im monogamous so youre not going 28 around messing around with no men, were together.  So either way, it just . . . my truth is my 29 truth and it may change tomorrow, who knows.   30 
AJ: Who knows.  So I loved your response to the LGBT issue.  What do you think the agenda for the 31 transgender community should be going forward?  You said you consider yourself an activist and 32 a feminist, social justice minded. 33 
SH: I do, absolutely.  I didnt see myself . . . this is a pretty recent development within my journey, 34 within my road.  My passion is speaking about . . . you know, the mental health stigma in the 35 country and the stigma around white anxiety.  I really dont like it when people say that 36 minorities are discriminated against and youre being a victim.  You know what?  Heres the 37 thing, if you read Howard Zinns American History of the United States you would see two words 38 together . . .  39 
AJ: Peoples History of the United States. 40 
SH: Peoples History of the United States, you would see two words together, thank you for your 1 correction, white slaves.  White slaves.  Nowhere else will you see that.  And they try to put a 2 little buffer on it  indentured servants.  Honey, those people were poor, they were digging up 3 graves in order to survive because they didnt learn how to cook from the Natives, they were 4 slaves.  And what had happened was Native men were getting with white girls, Black men were 5 getting with Native girls  it was a big old party back in those days and the forefathers did not 6 want this conflict of interest so they insisted that white women needed to stay away from the 7 Black men and the Native men and thats what created this separation and segregation and this 8 fear of people of color, because they wanted to not compromise their rule, their superiority.  9 And so, hey you dont have to be worried that youre somehow better, because really most . . . 10 nine times out of ten, your relatives were just as poor and in just as dire straits as the people 11 who were forced into slavery.  So no worry, you arent no better.  I think that would eliminate 12 some anxiety around this whole boogey classism stuff.  I think today, unfortunately, in our 13 society with the cut-throat economy that we have, everybody is aspiring to hurry up and try to 14 climb the ladder and nobody is ever going to get there  the people, theyre not going to let you. 15 
AJ: Is there anything that I didnt ask you, Sayuri, that you feel like you absolutely have to say? 16 
SH: I feel really blessed to be living in present day to where I get to walk the streets without attack.  17 I think there are probably other . . . like, I read about a woman who was Brazilian who got her 18 hair removed, who got her work messed up, and people are in danger in some other cultures 19 and even in my country.  The soul is eternal and I dont think its based on gender.  It may be just 20 part of ones evolution to transition, it doesnt even really matter why but its . . . Im really 21 grateful I get to experience this and sometimes it scares me.  I mean, things didnt get real until 22 the problem started, but I think theres never been something to give me such a backbone as 23 this, because Im a sensitive person.  Being transgender is definitely teaching me and 24 conditioning me to not care what other people think.  But in a way, in a healthy solution-minded 25 way, I do care what people think.  Lets talk about it.  It baffles me  I saw a man, completely 26 muscular and everything, wearing a dress, no wig, anything when I was working at H&M.  I 27 looked  thats courage right there.  I couldnt do that.   28 
AJ: Which H&M were you working at? 29 
SH: Southdale Mall.  This man was just running around like . . . whoa.  So, I have to admit as a person 30 that I dont know if I could do that if I was in his shoes.  I also . . . I dont find myself courageous 31 and brave.  People tell me they have respect for me and they think Im so brave and courageous, 32 it doesnt feel that way to me because Im just living my truth.  Im free.   33 
AJ: Wow, that is so, so, so powerful, Sayuri.  Thank you. 34 
SH: Yeah, of course.  Thank you, so much. 35 
AJ: Thank you for sharing, thank you for your honesty and humor. 36 
SH: Thank you. 37 
AJ: Until we meet again.  All right. 38 
SH: All right, thank you.   39 

