   
Harvey Katz Narrator   Andrea Jenkins Interviewer 
    
The Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies University of Minnesota 
January 29, 2016 
 
 
   

 
  
The Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story, while providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source material about the transgender community.  The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for current and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public. 
The Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300 individuals over the next three years.  Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and experiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality.  This project will be led by Andrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist.  Andrea brings years of experience working in government, non-profits and LGBT organizations.  If you are interested in being involved in this exciting project, please contact Andrea. 
Andrea Jenkins jenki120@umn.edu (612) 625-4379 
   
 
Andrea Jenkins -AJ 1 
Harvey Katz  -HK 2 
 3 
 4 
AJ: So, hello. 5 
HK: Hello. 6 
AJ: My name is Andrea Jenkins and I am the oral historian for the Transgender Oral History Project.  7 Today is January 29, 2016, and I am sitting here in a hotel room in Minnetonka with Harvey Katz. 8 
HK: Thats it. 9 
AJ: Harvey, can you please tell me . . . just restate your name and your preferred pronouns, your 10 gender identity, and your gender assigned at birth? 11 
HK: OK, so my name is Harvey Katz, K-a-t-z, and I use he and him as pronouns and Im male with a 12 transgender history.  What was the last one? 13 
AJ: And your gender assigned at birth. 14 
HK: Oh, assigned female at birth. 15 
AJ: I havent heard that particular identity in my interviews.  Ive heard it a few times but its a new 16 one for my interviews, male with a transgender history.   17 
HK: Yeah, or male with a transgender experience.  I dont know, Ive been thinking about it a lot 18 lately actually, because Ive been thinking about how . . . I get so much cis gender privilege in the 19 world that I can just forget, I can forget that Im transgender often. 20 
AJ: Absolutely, yeah. 21 
HK: And I used to really consider myself somebody who was . . . Ive gone from somebody who feels 22 like female to male or somebody who felt like little T to big T, as I sort of grew up.  And now I 23 just sort of . . . I feel like so comfortable in my maleness, I dont know.  It doesnt feel like an 24 uncomfortable or unpracticed space any more, I just feel like another . . . I never thought I 25 would.  I fought against it, but I just feel now like a dude and Im just a dude that happens to 26 have a transgender experience.  Its definitely informed my maleness, but I can really go all day 27 and not think about being transgender, and I never thought there would be a day where I could 28 go all day and not think about being transgender.  But I have.  29 
AJ: No one is mis-gendering you? 30 
HK: No, I just . . . I think about it, sure, every time I go to the bathroom.  I always have a moment of 31 fear and I dont think that will ever go away even though nobody has given me . . . I dont know 32 if I can curse in this or not, but nobody has given . . .  33 
AJ: You can curse. 34 
HK:  . . . me shit in the bathroom in years and I can . . . I dont know.  Because I enjoy so much cis 1 gender privilege at this point, I just consider myself male with transgender experience. 2 
AJ: Hey, its a beautiful thing.  Im glad youre able to be at that point in life. I just only wish that for 3 all of our trans brothers and sisters. 4 
HK: No doubt. 5 
AJ: Harvey, tell me, what is your earliest memory in life.  It does not have to be related to your trans 6 experience, although if it is, thats wonderful and beautiful.  So as youre thinking about it, dont 7 think, Oh, she wants to know when I first realized I was trans. 8 
HK: Yeah, and no I didnt even know the word transgender until I was 19, so hopefully thats not my 9 earliest history.  I think my earliest memory is in pre-school.  In pre-school I remember 10 specifically trying to set fires with this kid named Oscar. 11 
AJ: OK. 12 
HK: I think thats my earliest memory was pre-school. 13 
AJ: Wow, setting fires with Oscar. 14 
HK: Yeah, I dont know why I remember that. 15 
AJ: Were you guys good buddies? 16 
HK: I dont even know.  I remember I was with this kid, I hung out with this kid and he got me in a lot 17 of trouble.  Nothing I did . . . I almost got kicked out of pre-school several times.  I would not 18 nap.  I used to like to dig a lot of worms and put them places . . . put them on the picnic tables 19 during lunch time.  I dont know why I got into this stuff.  And then for some reason, I dont 20 know if this kid Oscar . . . and maybe thats not even his name, but in my memory his name was 21 Oscar. 22 
AJ: Thats what you named him as. 23 
HK: And he . . . we would try to hit rocks together and start fires and I dont know why I knew that as 24 a kid.  I have yet to light anything, really . . . Im not an arsonist, I did not grow up to be an 25 arsonist. 26 
AJ: Wonderful, thats good news. 27 
HK: For public record, Im not an arsonist. 28 
AJ: So you were hanging out with a little boy in pre-school.  Most female assigned children hangout 29 with other female assigned children.  Was that something that you consciously sought out or 30 just sort of organically hanging out with the boys. 31 
HK: It was not organic.  Im telling you this is going through a filter of 32 years, 31 years or whatever 32  Im not sure how old you are in pre-school, like 3 or 4.  But I remember that there was this one 33 . . . my best friend was a girl named Amanda and she liked this kid, Adam.  And so I was like, 34 Well, shoot, Ive got to find a guy to like.   35 
AJ: OK. 1 
HK: This is like . . . I dont know, a lot of like . . . I feel like we have a lot of revised narrative in our 2 lives, especially because I think were just always talking, getting deep into our sexual and our 3 gender histories or whatever, or sexuality and gender histories.  But, I do specifically remember 4 that she liked this guy, Adam, and I was like, Ive got to find a dude to hang out with.  And so 5 Oscar it was.  I always really liked the sort of misfit in a group.   6 
AJ: Oh wow, awesome.  Where did you go to school? 7 
HK: I grew up in Miami, so I went to school in the public schools in Miami. 8 
AJ: All right.   9 
HK: And then I moved to Georgia. 10 
AJ: What was that experience like in schools in the south?  Were you ever bullied as a kid?  Were 11 you a good student?  You almost got kicked out of pre-school so that tells me a little something.   12 
HK: I was not a great student, but I did have like a real . . . I think all my years were marked by not 13 fitting in and really wanting to fit in.  I was not like . . . I grew up in a pretty conservative Jewish 14 home and I wasnt allowed to wear t-shirts to school.  I grew up in Miami and what do you wear 15 in Miami besides a t-shirt or like nothing?  I always had to wear these button-down outfits.  I had 16 four shirts and four shorts and four tank tops.  They were all Hawaiian shirts and then Id wear a 17 colored tank top underneath that matched and shorts that matched.  So all my . . .  18 
AJ: That was your school uniform. 19 
HK: For me, all the other kids wore regular t-shirts and shorts and then for me I had this, I guess, 20 personal style picked out by my parents.  Ive never really cared that much about style.  Im still 21 really bad at picking out an outfit.  Im trying to get more stylish as I get older but . . .  22 
AJ: But that sounds like sort of a gender-neutral outfit. 23 
HK: Yeah, or I wore all of my brothers old clothes because I was not a . . . and I feel bad for my mom 24 because she was a very girly-girl. 25 
AJ: Super femme. 26 
HK: Well not even . . . she was like a power suit wearing 1980s corporate mama.  I didnt know this, 27 she passed away when I was 19 and I didnt know until after she died what she actually did 28 because in my eyes she just went and worked for a mortgage company every day, but she was 29 actually on the forefront of software design. 30 
AJ: Oh wow. 31 
HK: Yeah, so she would go to work, and I remember visiting her in the computer room, but she was 32 a really . . . I dont think my parents held tight to gender roles but I do think that they really 33 wanted . . . its the 1980s, they had a very nuclear family.  They had first a boy, then they had a 34 girl, and I do think that there was a line that . . . a life that they had set out for us to achieve.  I 35 think that all parents do that with kids, but I do think that it was . . . I remember my mom being 36 like, Dont squak like a boy.  And I just . . . I remember my grandma telling stories of me just 1 freaking out about wearing dresses.  I dont know if that was gender assigned or if its just like I 2 wanted to fit in and my brother was a boy and I wanted to be just like him. 3 
AJ: Sure.  So your dad was in the home too growing up? 4 
HK: Yeah, and he was actually kind of a stay-at-home dad.  He worked for his father so he could 5 come to work late.  So he would do my hair in the mornings and dress me, and he was the 6 carpool dad.  He was in charge of breakfast.  I grew up . . . 7 
AJ: So there was some gender role sort of shifting in your family. 8 
HK: Yeah, my mom was at work before I woke up in the morning.  She came home and she cooked 9 dinner, but it was like 7-7, she worked long days.  And my dad, he was just sort of . . . yeah, he 10 was kind of a stay-at-home dad.   11 
AJ: And you said you had just the one sibling? 12 
HK: Yeah, just my brother.   13 
AJ: And you guys are pretty close? 14 
HK: Yeah, now.  Weve gone through different periods in our life but hes . . . when we were kids we 15 were very close and then . . . were just four years apart, so just old enough where your interests 16 . . . a 4-year-old has nothing to say to an 8-year-old about what theyre doing and so on.  But 17 then, as we grew older . . . Im very close to him now.   18 
AJ: Oh good  good, good, good.  Im really glad to hear that because a lot of males with a 19 transgender experience, is that how you phrased it? 20 
HK: Sure. 21 
AJ: You know, dont have those connections to family sometimes, thats really good to hear. 22 
HK: Ive been very lucky to keep my family through this.  Its not been easy, its been a lot of late-23 night emails of, Learn my name.  That was a big one.  Getting my dad to be consistent with my 24 name, its been . . . I wrote him a letter in 2003, I came out to him through letter  through pen 25 and paper, and it is now 2016 and we are just . . . were at the 90th percentile in getting my 26 name right.   27 
AJ: Wow. 28 
HK: But hes always loved me, which is nice.  He just doesnt want to . . . I think when you have . . . I 29 have this certain level of compassion for it, but then my patience is wearing thin. 30 
AJ: Yeah, because its challenging for our parents.   31 
HK: Sure, yeah.  He would have been happy to go his whole life without ever hearing the word 32 transgender.  Hes not like on the forefront of any social movements, he wasnt psyched to have 33 a queer kid but he was always psyched to have a kid.   34 
AJ: Your mother passed away at 19. 35 
HK: Yeah.   1 
AJ: Did you come out to her at all prior to her . . .? 2 
HK: She knew I was queer.  She got sick when I was 17 and we actually had kind of like a tragic but 3 funny coming out story where I was having . . . I was in high school and she got diagnosed with a 4 cancer that she had three months to live, but then she ended up living two years.  So we were 5 always teetering on the edge of her dying  we never knew . . . so everything was this panic.  I 6 was in high school and . . . I didnt ever plan on coming out to my family, I just thought I was 7 going to turn 18 and then Im going to leave and never speak to them again.  That was my plan 8 was to just run away.  But then with my mom being sick I just thought, Shes going to die, is this 9 going to stress her out?  Is this going to hasten the process or is this going to be something that I 10 need to tell her?  So my plan was just to keep my mouth shut.  But I was having a breakdown 11 and I wanted to go visit my friend in Ohio who was really helping me . . . just was sort of a real 12 support system through this.  So I needed to borrow like $100 to pay for my plane ticket and so I 13 was like, I need to talk to you about something but I dont know how to talk to you about it.  14 And it was just to ask for money. 15 
AJ: Right. 16 
HK: And I was like, Im really stressed out, I just dont know how this conversation is going to go.  17 And she was like, Well, does this have anything to do with your sexuality?  And I was like, 18 OK.  So I came out to her then but she never knew me as male.  I think its actually . . . I only 19 came out to her as queer, to which she said, Yeah, me and your father have known since you 20 were 13 and weve talked about it, we actually went to see somebody to talk about it.  But they 21 just never talked to me about it.   22 
AJ: So they didnt try shock therapy or . . .? 23 
HK: No, no.  And I dont think that they expected me to change for them either, which was very nice 24 of them.  They changed for me and never expected me to change for them.  I have to give it to 25 my folks, they really have at least left their feelings as far out of it as possible.  But my name, my 26 female name is on her gravestone, and Ive never heard my mom say my name.  Theres certain 27 trans folks that this is an experience with and Ive actually wanted to speak to other folks who 28 have had this experience, because it is sort of really isolating to never have had your mom say 29 your name is something that is deeply impactful.   30 
AJ: It is, having experienced that.  31 
HK: You have as well. 32 
AJ: And this is not my interview.  No, Ive experienced my mom calling me by my name and its 33 deeply affirming.   34 
HK: Oh yeah, totally.  35 
AJ: Yeah, but I dont want to go there, I want to learn about you, Harvey.  So, tell me about the first 36 time you realized that you were not the gender you were assigned at birth?   37 
HK: Well I had some . . .  38 
AJ: Youve already said 19 was when you first heard the word transgender. 1 
HK: Yeah, like I never heard the word transgender until I was 19, and I never knew that it was a 2 possibility for me.  But, I was actually just writing about this this morning, because I had this 3 memory yesterday that I had sort of forgotten for a while.  When I was a kid, I was like maybe 8-4 ish, and I had a friend.  I was always very small  not small, I was very fat but I was very short as 5 a kid, like obscenely short.  The doctor never thought I would hit 5 and I was like very . . . I was 6 always the shortest kid in my class and whenever I would stay at my friends house, if I needed 7 to borrow clothes, I would borrow her little brothers clothes, who was like 5.  But he was a big 8 5-year-old and I was a little 8-year-old.  Her mom went out and for some reason we were left 9 alone in the house, I dont know if it was an emergency or something  it was the 1980s, so 8-10 year-olds were alone all the time.  But we went to the community pool, like the pool in her 11 apartment complex, and instead of wearing her swimsuit, I wore her brothers little speedo.  12 And I remember we blew up a little balloon and I tucked it inside the shorts and I . . .  13 
AJ: So you were packing at 8? 14 
HK: Yeah.  I wore a really low ponytail thinking it was very Robinson Crusoe, that sort of pilgrim hair 15 period.  And I went down to the pool and I remember thinking like, I just hope this works  I 16 hope this works, I hope nobody notices, and I hope that they dont ruin it for me  this moment, 17 because it was a bet on their end.  I bet you $1 you wont do this.  But I really . . . it was so 18 thrilling.  It is so thrilling to do this.  We got in tons of trouble for going to the pool when we 19 shouldnt have, and the balloon came out and we started . . . but it was a very cool moment for 20 me. 21 
AJ: Wow. 22 
HK: But when I was 19 I had a roommate who was a womens studies major and I was living in a 23 small city in Georgia.  Id always known about trans women and I have like a very . . . not 24 creative mind but I just never saw past the parameters that it was something that was a 25 possibility for me.  And she just sat me down and was like, I have something to tell you that I 26 learned in class today and Im pretty sure it pertains to you.   27 
AJ: Hmm. 28 
HK: And thats when I found out about trans men and I was just like . . . pshew.  And then I really 29 learned to hate myself in a different way and then I was like, Oh, theres a way out of this 30 body.  When you realize that . . . like if you didnt know you were in a jail and then youre like, 31 Not everybody lives in this jail, and then the walls started closing in.  It was horrible, and it was 32 in a small city in Georgia where there was no trans people.  I met another trans guy a few years 33 later who actually is still a really good friend of mine. 34 
AJ: Oh good.    35 
HK: Yeah, but it was like . . . I started dating somebody who was trans in another city, I went to 36 Overland as they do.   37 
AJ: Overland is in Ohio? 38 
HK: Yeah.  She goes by she pronouns now but at the time she was like, I have people call me he 1 pronouns.  And I was like, You can do that?  Do people listen?  I had no clue that you could 2 even ask people to join this journey with you. 3 
AJ: Sure. 4 
HK: I just thought, Im going to forever live in this hell that Ive created for myself and its going to 5 be a lonely and desolate place.  And then I started . . . I branched out a little bit in Georgia.  I 6 only moved to New York five years ago, so I stayed there until I was 30 or 31. 7 
AJ: What part of Georgia? 8 
HK: Athens. 9 
AJ: Athens, OK. 10 
HK: Yeah, so its a college town which is a little bit better than . . .  11 
AJ: Which college is there? 12 
HK: The University of Georgia, thats where I went to school. 13 
AJ: All right.  What did you study? 14 
HK: Phys Ed.  I wanted a degree that I could get that was the least like going to school because Ive 15 always just . . . I only stayed in school so I could play rugby because if I quit school then I couldnt 16 be part of the rugby team. 17 
AJ: Were you on a scholarship? 18 
HK: No.  I went to the University of Georgia.  My brother went there and then I went there.  I dont 19 know why he went there, I only went there because I was on my way . . . I didnt want to go to 20 any college, I was really not intending on going to any college but my mom was like, Please, Im 21 dying, go to college. 22 
AJ: She hit you with Jewish guilt. 23 
HK: Totally.  I went a year after high school, I didnt go immediately.  But the University of Georgia  24 I literally applied to all these other schools that I wanted to go to and then I was going to go to 25 Pace for nursing in New York and its so expensive, so I said no.  And the University of Georgia 26 was the cheapest, at the time it was the cheapest out-of-state public school you could go to and 27 I wanted to get the hell out of Florida.  So I went there.  That day I turned in my yes to University 28 of Georgia, I got a scholarship to Pace in the mail  the same day.  It worked out how it was 29 going to. 30 
AJ: Well you still ended up in New York City.   31 
HK: I did.  I wasnt even going to go to school  I was literally . . . I left the week after my mom died 32 and I was in a total brain space . . . my brain was in a horrible space and I was on my way driving 33 to New York City and I was going to forego college all together, but I had a place to stay that 34 night in Athens and, for me, thats 14 hours  for most people its like a 10-hour drive, but for 35 me its a 14-hour drive.  So I was exhausted and I was like, Ill just spend the night, and then I 1 spent 12 years there and then I made it to New York eventually. 2 
AJ: Wow, that is a fascinating story.  So, you kind of had this mind blowing experience at 19  just 3 pshew, mind blowing experience at 19, when you realized that it was possible to transcend 4 gender, right? 5 
HK: Yeah. 6 
AJ: When did you actually begin that journey? 7 
HK: Id say by the time I was 20 or 21 I started to socially transition.  And then . . . I only went by my 8 last name anyways, Katz  its a good last name to go by.   9 
AJ: Right, exactly. 10 
HK: Especially when youre in a sports community, everybody is like, Katz  yeah.  And so I only 11 went by my last name for years, I didnt even have a first name until like 2006 or 2007, then I 12 was like, Oh, I should pick a first name thats more gender affirming for me.  And then I started 13 to medically transition at 25.  At first I just thought I would get top surgery.  Its almost like funny 14 in retrospect, only with time has the nostalgia gained any sort of sense of humor, because I had 15 the smallest A breasts, its as if I didnt . . . if I would have just started taking hormones first, I 16 doubt I would have even needed a mastectomy  literally.  But they just felt huge, they just felt 17 like this . . . oh God, it was if I had double Hs.  I remember I was riding my bike one day and I 18 was like, Why am I so winded?  And I realized I was wearing my binder riding a bike and of 19 course I couldnt breathe.  And thats when I made the decision, and my grandma had actually 20 just passed away and left me some money, and so my grandma, who I had told I was trans and 21 who was one of my best friends  me and my grandma were pals, and so I thought she would be 22 cool with using the money for that.  So I went to an incredibly crappy surgeon who just said my 23 name right.  I was like, You used my male name, yes  you can do surgery on me.   24 
AJ: Right. 25 
HK: And that was in 2005 and then I started taking hormones in the beginning of 2006.   26 
AJ: OK.  So you kind of did the opposite experience of . . .  27 
HK: I did, yeah.  When you have surgery, you can keep that private  like I just feel like for me the 28 scariest part about medical transition is that now your transition becomes public, especially if 29 youre taking testosterone like all these changes are happening to you in this very public fashion 30 and your voice is cracking  its like puberty. 31 
AJ: Hair sprouting out. 32 
HK: Hair sprouting  though for me that didnt happen for 10 years, it was slow motion.  I just 33 started really shaving a year ago and its been 10 years.  I didnt want to take it public, it just felt 34 like such a personal experience but I was sick of being 14 forever, which was where I was stuck 35 without hormones.  And 14-year-olds get treated like crap.  Its strange . . . its just strange to be 36 14 for 10 years.  And then it was just time to . . . I was going to say grow up, but I mean 37 physically grow up  physically make my body an adult male body, because before I was living 1 like a very teenage boy existence and I wanted to have an adult experience for the world.   2 
AJ: Wow.  What have been some of the challenges that youve faced since youve begun to express 3 your true gender identity?   4 
HK: Well I think that maybe not a challenge but an interesting sort of side effect was really learning 5 your space in this world differently.  Its like before I was always like sort of demanding space, 6 like I belong here  my voice is important.  And then I was really scared in the world often, but 7 then I transitioned to being read as male, like now I dont ever get misread, and then I just 8 thought, Oh my God, I can walk down the street and nobody says anything to me.  I remember 9 the first time I walked at night and felt like Im going to get robbed and Im not going to get 10 raped.  That was . . . I was like, Well, releasing that fear feels good.  Or just being  broed by 11 other dudes saying weird and nasty things to you where youre just like . . . its exciting.  Then it 12 gets shitty. 13 
AJ: Its affirming though, right? 14 
HK: Youre like, Oh, you want to say something sexist and fucked up to me, and in your brain 15 youre like, Thats so sexist and fucked up, and then youre like, Ahh, they think Im one of 16 them.  You have to get over that and then you have to be like, Thats fd up, dude.  What are 17 you saying?  Why would you even say something like that to me?  And now you can say, I 18 dont want to hear that, to them or something like that.  But it was just interesting to now be a 19 white man in the world.  When I first came out to my brother, I got him really drunk  I got me 20 really drunk.  He owned a bar in Atlanta and I was just like, Ive got something to tell you, and 21 then I told him that I was transitioning and he said . . . at first he didnt say anything for a few 22 minutes and that was like the hardest minute maybe of my life.  And then he said, You want to 23 be a white man, everybody hates white men.  And I was like . . . that was still like one of the 24 best coming out stories Ive ever heard.  That was his response.  Even in the queer community, 25 as somebody who was gender queer or somebody who was living this very, sort of untraditional 26 experience of gender, people were always telling me, Your voice is important.  I made a career 27 using my voice, I became an educator and I became a performer and my voice was the only . . . it 28 became the instrument I had as part of my career, and now sort of being really read as a cis 29 gender male and somebody . . . Im constantly told to shut up now.  Now youre told like, 30 Youve spoken enough, your voice isnt important. 31 
AJ: How does that feel? 32 
HK: Its hard.  I wish it wasnt so hard.  I understand  I absolutely understand where its coming 33 from and I feel like a whiny white dude to be like, I have something to say still.  But it was an 34 experience and experience that . . . it took me so much to speak up and now I have to quell what 35 felt really brave to me.  I have to silence that because . . . I always feel like the price you pay is 36 you get all this privilege in the world.  Theyre like, youve already been sort of paid to keep 37 silent in this way.  Its tricky.  Its tricky on so many levels.  But emotionally its been really hard 38 to be . . . to just be told to shut up.   39 
AJ: Oh wow.  This is really fascinating to me, Harvey, that your challenge is really . . . a big part of 1 your challenge, you didnt say it was your only challenge  but one challenge, is that you are 2 always perceived as male.  What do you think about this whole idea of passing and stealth 3 identity and really not coming out as having a transgender experience?  Whats your thoughts 4 around that? 5 
HK: You know, I think its all personal.  For me, I dont even think I practice holding it back though I 6 have found that I can be a better ally if people dont see me as a transgender person and then 7 work as an ally for the trans community, I actually have found that a really exciting proposition.  8 I can be effective again in this way.  9 
AJ: Yes, thats an awesome analysis  I just want to point that out.   10 
HK: Its exciting.  I had an experience at work.  I work for this real estate company in New York and I 11 just was like . . . oh, because they dont know Im trans, and its not even like I didnt tell them 12 for a reason, but its also a work place  I dont need to tell them anything.  They dont need to 13 know what Im doing tonight and they dont need to know that I was assigned female at birth.  14 Im here to work, Im not here to make friends, Im literally here to go home. 15 
AJ: And all your documentation and everything . . .  16 
HK: Well it goes through the state licensing board, so all they knew was that my state license said 17 this.  They didnt need any information  the state does ID checks on me, everything.  They 18 didnt have any part of my background check because by that time the state had already done a 19 background check on me for the state licensing board.  But, I mean, I think that . . . I dont think 20 theres any shame in staying stealth, I dont think theres any shame in coming out.  I think that 21 for everybody . . . I think for a lot of trans folks, the end experience is that you get to just live 22 your affirmed gender and then the transition is over.  I do feel, like for me, my transition is 23 complete and then any information I want to give about my past is for those that I want to have 24 it.  I think I have been gifted this privilege of coming out when I choose or coming out when I 25 dont choose  thats a privilege to get to decide when you tell folks that youre trans and when 26 you dont.  I think I only realized Im here, in this spot, in the last year or two.  Its like I finally 27 landed in my reality  recently, which is why I have all these new thoughts about it.  I bet you in 28 five years I dont even think about this anymore. 29 
AJ: Sure. 30 
HK: Once you dont have to think about it, its kind of a joy. 31 
AJ: Sure. 32 
HK: I remember telling my mom, like sobbing  deeply sobbing to my mom and just telling her, Ill 33 never be OK in this world.  There will never be a place that accepts me, Im always going to be . . 34 .  I had no adult representation of what I was going to look like when I got older.  I didnt think I 35 was going to live until 20  and my mom didnt either.  She told me after I came out to her that 36 she thought I was going to commit suicide.  It was really real.  If my family hadnt shown me the 37 love that they did, I would have never made it.   38 
AJ: Wow, well thank goodness for family. 39 
HK: No doubt.  1 
AJ: Tell me about some of the joys of coming out.  You named one.   2 
HK: I dont know.  I think, for me, telling folks Im trans . . . Im not a man-hating man, but Im not a 3 man-loving man.  Its nice for me to get to be like, Im a guy, but not like those guys.  Its nice 4 for me to separate myself from a traditional male experience.  I think it makes me . . . I dont 5 want to be part of that group all the time.  I feel like, as a whole, men are getting a little better 6 but not only did they have a really bad rap for a really long time, they havent had the greatest 7 awareness.  I love the fact that I was socialized female  I absolutely love it.  I think that it made 8 me a better man.  I really do.  Though I look at my brother and hes a really great man, but I 9 often wonder what kind of person I would have been had I not had a transgender experience. 10 
AJ: Wow.  Any other joys? 11 
HK: I dont know.  Id have to say, I love the unique perspective that being trans gives you on the 12 world.  Its almost like . . . I dont want to make trans people seem like theyre . . .  13 
AJ: Unicorns. 14 
HK: Or like unicorns or masquerading or deceiving or having any of that sort of labeling that other 15 people put on us, but its kind of like a fly on the wall kind of existence.  When youre like, Oh, 16 Ive lived that so I know but you dont know that.  I love the fact that I have lived many 17 experiences and that they all got to sort of funnel into the person I am now.   18 
AJ: When I first came out I used to have a lot of my female friends, cis gender female friends, would 19 sort of consult me about relationships with men. 20 
HK: Right, yeah. 21 
AJ: I lived that experience, so I know what youre saying. 22 
HK: Totally. 23 
AJ: Current relationship with your family good now? 24 
HK: Yeah, its great  better than ever.  I think that Ive really had to fight for space in it, Ive really 25 had to have been like, Im not letting down, you have to love me as hard as anybody else.  I 26 have really . . . a lot of late night emails have gone out to my family.  An acquaintance friend of 27 mine in New York recently committed suicide and I . . .  28 
AJ: Oh no, Im sorry. 29 
HK: Yeah, it was awful and I spoke to my dad about it the next day.  He said, Well dont you go 30 down that road now.  And I said, Well I have my family rooting for me so that makes it a lot 31 easier to not do that.  And he said, Were not rooting for you, were going to treat you the 32 same as anybody else.  Which I thought . . . 33 
AJ: But thats good.  Thats what we want, right? 34 
HK: Hes like, Im not rooting for you, were going to treat you the same as everybody else.  I was 1 like, Thats hilarious.   2 
AJ: Oh funny.  Were there any pivotal moments for you that defined your new life?   3 
HK: I got married recently.  There was something about . . . and Ive just never been one to think I 4 would get married, like never.  I dont care if anybody else gets married, its never been a 5 political issue for me.  I feel like I fought hard for a gay marriage because I thought that when 6 you live in the south or you live in rural communities, thats what tells people youre human and 7 you deserve a basic right.  It was an important fight for me.   8 
AJ: So you were involved in sort of canvasing, door knocking . . . ? 9 
HK: I didnt really canvas . . . I give myself more of a pat on the back than I really did.  But in 10 conversation, but in voting and all that stuff, I always voted . . . though I have to say, in Georgia 11 in 2004, for that election gay marriage was up for votes and I was at city hall bi-weekly. 12 
AJ: OK, so you were a strong advocate. 13 
HK: I had lots of letters from Sunny Perdue, the governor at the time, to me.  So actually I forgot 14 about that, so I was . . . and it was shot down by like 86%, it wasnt even a close battle.  But I 15 recently got married, and I have to say that in the most disgusting hard to accept way, its kind 16 of cool to be husband and wife in this . . . in almost like this ha-ha to my teenage self, where it 17 just said, Oh, you didnt think you would belong  look at you.  I just felt like . . . Im working 18 on how that feels internally still.  I havent really caught it.  But I think the most pivotal moment 19 was just realizing that I didnt have to fight so much anymore.  I mean, I know thats my 20 experience, obviously thats not all trans peoples experience, but this moment where I was just 21 like, Oh my God, today you just get to be.   22 
AJ: You know, Ive heard a lot of people talk about . . . in similarly situated people, talk about now 23 they get married  trans man, cis gender woman.  Im making a big assumption that your wife is 24 . . .  25 
HK: Yeah, shes cis gender. 26 
AJ:  . . . is a cis gender person.  The struggle becomes how do we let our queer community, our 27 friends, even the world know that we are queer? How do you deal with that?  Or do you guys 28 deal with it? 29 
HK: My wife is like real queer looking, so thats helpful.   30 
AJ: So you guys are out already. 31 
HK: I was talking to her the other day, I was like . . .  32 
AJ: And how is one queer looking?  Describe her to me? 33 
HK: Shes just like a really . . . shes got like a pompadour, shes tough and beautiful at the same time 34 in this way . . .  35 
AJ: The 50s glasses? 36 
HK: She had lasik, so no.   1 
AJ: OK, so no glasses. 2 
HK: She did before.  No, she just . . . she just doesnt . . .  3 
AJ: She doesnt fit the norm of . . . 4 
HK: Yeah, when people see me with her I think they think, Oh my God . . . 5 
AJ: Poor straight guy. 6 
HK: I dont think you know who you married  shes going to leave you for a woman.  I think thats 7 what they think.  But I was talking to my wife the other day about how all my relationships have 8 looked so odd to people in the world.  When I was 19, I was dating a 33-year-old but everybody 9 thought I was 14 and they would say, Is this your son?  All this stuff to us  and wed be like, 10 No.  And then when I dated a trans guy that I dated after her, we both looked about 16-years-11 old and we traveled the country and we had a lot of trouble because people kept thinking we 12 were kids traveling together.  I actually took a group . . . I snuck into a middle school picture on 13 that trip and got away with it  they were traveling at the same national park we were.  And 14 then, on and on . . . I think my last long-term relationship before her, I think people really 15 assumed I was a gay man and I think they felt bad for my girlfriend at the time, thinking like, 16 Oh, you dont know youre with a gay man.  And now I think they think, Oh . . . 17 
AJ: You dont know youre with a lesbian. 18 
HK: Oh, I guess it takes one guy to change them.  And I joke with my wife  like, You were just 19 waiting for the right man.  But its ours to joke about.  But I do, I always want to be like, I am, 20 but Im not one of you.   21 
AJ: Yeah, it can be a challenge.  I personally havent had to experience that but I hear a lot of people 22 talking about it.   23 
HK: Its like a . . . Oh, sorry, I feel so bad for you.  And youre like I dont know, its so hard - Im 24 sorry it does feel so bad. 25 
AJ: It is what it is.   26 
HK: It is what it is, everybodys experience is valid.  27 
AJ: Any specific moments or persons or organizations that have had a significant impact on your 28 gender identity?   29 
HK: Well . . .  30 
AJ: The roommate in college. 31 
HK: Sure, yeah  she was huge.  And her teacher, I guess, too.  I dont know who her teacher was at 32 the time who got transgender experience.  I remember I was working at this sandwich shop and 33 bakery in Athens and a trans . . . I didnt know he was trans at the time but I had a feeling he was 34 trans, he was applying for a job there.  I literally . . . I was leaving off my shift for the day and he 35 was just filling out the application and I kept looking for so long that I walked right into the 1 fucking door coming out.  But I dont know, I read Stone Butch Blues when I was a teenager . . . 2 
AJ: For some reason, I was just getting ready to ask you about Leslie Feinberg. 3 
HK: Yeah, of course. 4 
AJ: Who is a dear friend of mine  but yeah. 5 
HK: I feel like an integral part of my life . . . I read that book over the years so many times.  In fact, I 6 just thought . . . just thinking about picking it up and reading it again because I was now 7 wondering what it felt through this lens of my life.  And then theres been communities all over 8 the country.  Ive traveled, as a performer, for the last 10 years Ive gone to all these places all 9 over the country and I get to meet the coolest group of folks in every city  the queer and the 10 trans folks in every city, from fucking Conway, Arkansas to San Francisco, from the little to the 11 big.  Ive gotten to meet really cool people and theyve all been really nice to me and that has 12 changed everything about my experience and myself and my body. 13 
AJ: That is awesome.  Tell me about your artistic life.  Youre a performer, youre a writer.  What do 14 you write about?  Whats your performance like?  You said youve been doing it for 10 years. 15 
HK: Yeah, over that  13. 16 
AJ: Oh wow. 17 
HK: Yeah, since 2003 Ive been doing it mostly full-time. 18 
AJ: Really? 19 
HK: Yeah. 20 
AJ: And youre able to make a living as an artist?   21 
HK: Yeah, that and odd stuff like here and there.  That and the odd jobs, but its been my primary 22 source of income. 23 
AJ: Thats what artists do, right? 24 
HK: Right  you figure it out as you go.  Yeah, I started doing this project called Athens Boys Choir 25 with another guy, which is why its Athens Boys Choir.   26 
AJ: OK, so Athens . . . 27 
HK: Georgia. 28 
AJ: Athens, Georgia. 29 
HK: Yeah, he grew up in a very sort of Catholic all-girls high school situation and so he thought . . . 30 you know, and he was Catholic and I was Jewish so we thought, Oh, the Boys Choir would be 31 really fun.  And that was great in 2003, at this point I would love to get rid of the name and just 32 have been able to have been something else. 33 
AJ: Youre the only touring member of the Athens Boys Club. 34 
HK: I am, and sometimes if they dont read the rider they set up for a choir and I just feel bad . . . I 1 just need one mic.  Its spoken word poetry and then Ive sort of shifted into storytelling now.  2 So I do true story storytelling.   3 
AJ: Your own original stories or . . .? 4 
HK: Oh yeah, totally, its all true stories from . . . anything from . . . and they usually have like a real 5 gay or transness to them depending on what story Im telling.  Its almost all about hard times 6 early in my transition because I just think that thats when the most fascinating stories 7 happened to me.  I dont really write much spoken word poetry now, because I think spoken 8 word poetry takes a lot of animosity towards yourself or the world  whether its political or 9 what, and I just feel like I have love in my life, I know now that I have . . . I dont have struggles 10 like I did before and because I dont its really hard to write spoken word poetry.  I was speaking 11 to another poet the other day and I was talking to her and she was like, Dang it, love really 12 ruins your spoken word career.  I was like, I know, I was like, She is the poem, I get really 13 cheesy about it.  I dont write so much of that style anymore, and also just Im calmer in my life. 14 
AJ: Did you compete? 15 
HK: No, I got really nervous to compete.  I did a few slams in like the Nuyorican in New York and 16 stuff  like spaces that are historically really cool like that.  And I did all right, but I just feel like . . 17 . 18 
AJ: Thats an intimidating space. 19 
HK: No doubt, I was shaking when I was there.  But, you know . . .  20 
AJ: Nuyorican  just spell that for my . . .  21 
HK: What is it?  N-u-y-o-r-i-c-n.  I think its N-u-y-o-r-i-c-n. 22 
AJ: Yes, thats it.   23 
HK: C-a-n.  Its like Puerto Rican . . . the Nuyorican.  And then . . . yeah, now I started a storytelling 24 series in New York, its called Take Two Storytelling.   25 
AJ: Oh wow. 26 
HK: Thats my newest project.   27 
AJ: Where does that happen? 28 
HK: It happens at this bar in Bed-Stuy called Cmon Everybody and its basically true story.  Some 29 people read . . . so far, nobody has read it but its possible.  They just tell a live story, a true 30 story, and then they give you the actual ending but then you also get an alternative ending 31 where they get redemption or they get to right wrongs or they get to say how they wish it would 32 have turned out. 33 
AJ: Is that a competitive process? 34 
HK: No, no. 35 
AJ: Is there like miracle scores or . . .? 1 
HK: No, I dont like to compete.  Ive never been . . . I was a PE major and I played rugby, but I sucked 2 at sports my whole life.  I dont like winners and losers, I dont like competitive ground.  Im 3 really shy about telling anybody that they didnt do as good as the next person  I want us all to 4 feel like or be winners.   5 
AJ: Wow.  You talked about coming out . . . let me ask you this.  Well, I have a question here  have 6 there been times when someone has been really helpful or really insensitive related to the 7 medical industry, to the criminal justice system, to educational institutions?  It sounds like your 8 life has been pretty steadily OK, but please share with me . . . and Im curious, you went to the 9 University of Georgia, were you able to get your documents changed when you graduated?  10 What was that process like?   11 
HK: To be honest, I still havent . . . I just got my transcript so I just changed my name with them and 12 I graduated in 2003 and its 2016.  I just did it.  But I feel like in Georgia getting medical 13 transition was so horrifying.  I had so many bad instances.  I probably called like 20 doctors 14 offices looking for somebody who would even take me as a patient.  Then I found somebody 15 who was like, Im interested.  I went to see him and he was a gynecologist and obstetrician in 16 Athens and he was gay.  I knew that because he was . . . we had a Rainbow Pages that was like 17 two pages, and I went to see him . . . 18 
AJ: A Rainbow Page. 19 
HK: Page - exactly.  He was like, Im going to have to talk to my doctor in Emory, I dont understand 20 what this is, this transgender.  I was like, That sounds great.  You can say whatever you want 21 to me, just give me hormones.  And then he refused to start hormones unless I had a 22 gynecological exam and I had told him I just had one three months ago, I brought my paperwork 23 and everything with me.  And I said, You can read right here, I went three months ago  theres 24 no new information youre going to find.  But he was so excited to see what I had that he 25 wouldnt let me leave or get hormones until I did and I was just balling and screaming and I left.  26 When I finally found a doctor that was in Atlanta, and he, for my first shot, he berated me until I 27 gave myself a shot  just saying, You want to be a man, this is what it takes to be a man.  And 28 he had me use an 18-gauge needle, which is so much bigger than what you actually have to use 29  its like shooting yourself with a bullet in your leg  an inch and a half, 18-gauge needle.  And I 30 used it for years thinking thats what you had to use, and now I use like a 23-gauge needle, 31 which is so much . . . 32 
AJ: Its like a little sliver almost. 33 
HK: Its like nothing, I dont even think twice about giving myself shots now.  But he just berated me 34 and berated me until I did it.  It was a horrifying experience.  And then going to a doctor that 35 had a sketchy medical license to get my mastectomy  they didnt even use gloves when they 36 put my IV in.  It was so crazy. 37 
AJ: Oh boy. 38 
HK: But I survived  and I didnt get hepatitis through it somehow.   39 
AJ: Wow.  So, there have been some really sort of horrific experiences. 1 
HK: Yeah, almost all around medical stuff.   2 
AJ: Harvey, talk to me about what do you see as the relationship between the LGB and the trans 3 community?  Is there a relationship?  Should there continue to be a relationship?   4 
HK: You know, I think its a complicated relationship but I think its a necessary relationship.  Its like 5 I think a lot of trans people have had some queerness in them or are still queer, so I think 6 theres a lot of intersection of histories.  I also think that its hard not to . . . like you want as 7 many people going into battle with you as possible, but I also think that it creates a lot of 8 assumptions that may not also be true, like assuming that trans people are queer or trans 9 people want to be aligned with queer politics.  And also, I think then the aspect of coming out is 10 very different  because coming out for queer people is a matter of pride and being like Im 11 living a whole and authentic life and then for trans folks coming out is often . . . living a true and 12 authentic life means often like, I dont have to come out to you. 13 
AJ: Right. 14 
HK: Because Im actually living my true and authentic life.  So I think it creates this idea that people 15 are holding back information that theyre supposed to tell you and nobody has to tell you 16 anything.  And I think the same thing about sexuality too  I think its your own prerogative, 17 theres nothing not proud about living your life as comfortable as possible. 18 
AJ: Hmm.  Do you think theres an agenda for the trans community or should be an agenda for the 19 trans community?  And, if you do, what is it?   20 
HK: Oh man. I think that one thing that gets forgotten in lumping communities, is that people have 21 such different prerogatives and different desires.  I dont know.  I think the agenda for the trans 22 community is getting to live, getting to be part of spaces in an organic manner.  So, like . . . I do a 23 lot of work with college campuses so its all about giving the transgender student the same 24 experience as the cis gender student  so a comfortable place to be housed, bathrooms that are 25 . . . I cant believe how bathrooms are still a conversation were having.  But it feels like the most 26 basic of needs is bathroom safety.  Its just like Ive gone to the bathroom every day of my life, 27 every day I go to the bathroom. 28 
AJ: Multiple times a day. 29 
HK: Often  yes, every day I go to the bathroom many times a day.  Its still the scariest place for a 30 trans person.  I literally . . . I just want to go to the bathroom and not think about it, and for the 31 most part I do.  But, for the most part Im totally fine going to bathrooms safe, which I know is 32 an experience not everybody has.  But to just go in and not think about it, I dont know what 33 that is like.  I dont know if there is an agenda beyond just getting equal rights and equal access 34 to services.  And I think thats an agenda for everybody to have, to be honest.  Its certainly not 35 singular to the trans experience that youre like, Oh, I want equal access to basic human 36 rights.   37 
AJ: Thats a human rights issue, right? 38 
HK: Totally.  So I think the agenda for everybody is human rights and some sort of push towards 1 equality.  And I know that looks really . . . and I look different to different people and I know not 2 everybody wants to live the same life as cis gender folks or . . . I dont know, has the same goals.  3 Its all really varied.  I dont know.  Its tricky. 4 
AJ: Its OK, Im just asking your opinion, you dont have to have all the answers.  If you did, youd 5 probably be a very wealthy person.   6 
HK: Yes, tell people I do.   7 
AJ: I will  I will tell them.  Have you ever worked for or volunteered for any trans or LGBT 8 organizations? 9 
HK: Oh yeah.  I try to get involved as much as possible.  In New York, I have the opportunity . . . and 10 you know, its difficult because Im on the road so often so I cant be a . . . like a set part of an 11 organization.  But I have worked with the Ali Forney Center and . . .  12 
AJ: Ali Forney, yeah. 13 
HK: Im always like . . . if SRLP has events, the Sylvia Rivera Law Project, but mostly its been working 14 with different organizations on college campuses.   15 
AJ: Cool, thats awesome.  You talked a little bit earlier about coming out and medically 16 transitioning as being a very private experience, which I agree.  But, in 2015 we just bore witness 17 to a very public coming out story. 18 
HK: We sure did. 19 
AJ: Replete with a reality TV show and the cover of some pretty fancy magazines and I believe you 20 know who Im talking about  Caitlyn Jenner. 21 
HK: Of course. 22 
AJ: What do you think about Ms. Jenner now, as she wants to be referred to?  And what is the 23 impact of visibility on this sort of journey or quest for full equality? 24 
HK: I have a friend, I wish I could have come up with this myself, but I have a friend who I have had 25 this conversation with and he said, You know, now at least now not one person in America can 26 say they dont know a trans person.  And thats huge. 27 
AJ: That is huge. 28 
HK: My dad said to me on the phone  like, What do you think about this Caitlyn Jenner thing?  I 29 said, How did you learn her name in one day?   30 
AJ: It took you 35 years to . . . 31 
HK: Im still fighting for this name thing, but you just, Caitlyn Jenner.  Seamless.  I was just like, 32 Arghhh.  33 
AJ: That is hilarious. 34 
HK: And then I had an online . . . like a little Facebook fight with somebody who was like . . . they had 1 forward posted this, I dont know . . . shared this story about Caitlyn Jenner being woman of the 2 year and said, All you need is a schlong to be woman of the year, or something like that and I 3 was like, I dont understand.  And then the person wrote, I dont understand either.  I was 4 like, Whats not to understand?  She has brought transgender issues to the forefront of the 5 American consciousness, at great personal cost.  So yeah, she should be woman of the year.  6 Whats not to understand?  Or something like that, thats just what I wrote back.  But . . . at 7 first I was like, Oh God, shes like a Republican and shes pro guns and all these things, and I 8 was like . . .  9 
AJ: The Kardashians. 10 
HK: Shes a Kardashian, which I dont follow any of the Kardashians at all, but I was like, Actually 11 that kind of works in our favor because now the Republicans have a transgender person too.  I 12 was like, Ahhh, I cant align myself with her politics but its kind of cool that shes Republican.  13 Its kind of cool that not only is she a Republican, but shes kind of a God/gun kind of Republican.  14 I was like, Well, it takes all kinds.  But yeah.  I dont have any . . . I think the most important 15 thing she did was that she became a transgender person that people speak about when they 16 would have never said the word transgender in their entire life  happily.  So thats cool. 17 
AJ: Its awesome, actually.  I love your response, its really great.  Last question, 50 years from now 18 what do you think life is going to be like for trans-identified people?  Keeping in mind . . . so, 19 another visible reality show is this young lady Jazz Jennings, and so young people are coming out 20 and theyre getting access to medical treatment, supportive parents.  Their transgender 21 experience is very different from mine.  What do you think the world is going to look like in 50 22 years? 23 
HK: (A) hopefully we still have a world. 24 
AJ: Fingers crossed. 25 
HK: Totally.  Im fascinated to find out.  I mean, the deal is . . . I didnt come out as trans that long 26 ago  I mean 2000 is 16 years ago, and I remember having to tell people . . . people were like, 27 What the hell does transgender mean? 28 
AJ: Right. 29 
HK: Or what is a transgender.  We didnt even start using it as an adjective properly until like two 30 years ago, you still had news people . . . I even read an Oprah quote recently that said, I dont 31 know much about transgender . . . about a transgender.  Like used it as a noun, and Im like oh 32 my God, even language has changed really fast.  And so in 50 years, the hope is that it just 33 becomes part of the everyday experience.  That this sort of the assumption of the binary has 34 really been disproven and we just move along as a transgender identity being part of a wide 35 array of gender identities expressed in the world.  So thats my hope.  And I actually think that 36 like were going to get there  because I already think that were thinking about it . . . you look 37 at the transgender movement, its moving incredibly fast  like incredibly fast.  What other civil 38 rights movement has moved this fast, where people are just like, Yes, make space for this 39 community, make space for this community.  You know, you have a President talking about 40 transgender people.  I never thought I would ever hear a President say anything about . . . even 1 to use the word like lesbian felt like farfetched for a President to say and now the President is 2 saying, Gender identity and expression . . . there should be discrimination policies that include 3 this.   4 
AJ: Right. 5 
HK: So I think you have . . . like the treadmill is already on run and I think youre just going to have . . 6 . were going to see so much difference.  So in 50 years, Im just hoping that its just not a thing.   7 
AJ: Not a thing.  Wow. 8 
HK: That would be . . . I mean, that you just get to be born and be.   9 
AJ: Well, this has been a fascinating hour.   10 
HK: Its been great.  Sorry to talk about me the whole time, I want to know so much more about you. 11 
AJ: No, this whole project is to learn about you.  Ill do my own interview and then you can come 12 online and check it out and learn about me. 13 
HK: Whos interviewing you? 14 
AJ: Well figure that out, I havent figured it out yet.  But soon  very soon.  Thank you. 15 
HK: Of course, Im so happy you came. 16 
AJ: Good-bye. 17 

