   
Aidan Kay Narrator   Andrea Jenkins Interviewer 
    
The Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies University of Minnesota 
January 23, 2016 
 
 
   

 
  
The Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story, while providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source material about the transgender community.  The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for current and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public. 
The Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300 individuals over the next three years.  Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and experiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality.  This project will be led by Andrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist.  Andrea brings years of experience working in government, non-profits and LGBT organizations.  If you are interested in being involved in this exciting project, please contact Andrea. 
Andrea Jenkins jenki120@umn.edu (612) 625-4379 
   
 
Andrea Jenkins -AJ 1 
Aidan Kay  -AK 2 
 3 
 4 
AJ: Well, hello. 5 
AK: Hey, hey.   6 
AJ: My name is Andrea Jenkins, and I am the oral historian for the Transgender Oral History Project.  7 Im here today with Aidan Key.  Today is January 23, 2016, and were at the Creating Change 8 Conference in Chicago, Illinois.  So Aidan, if you dont mind, please introduce yourself, spell your 9 name, state your current gender identity, your preferred pronouns, and your gender assigned at 10 birth. 11 
AK: OK, well.  Aidan Key.  You said spell it? 12 
AJ: Yeah, just so the transcriptionist . . .  13 
AK: A-i-d-a-n, which people forget the second a, A-i-d-a-n.  Last name is K-e-y.  My gender identity . . 14 .   15 
AJ: Gender identity today. 16 
AK: Today, is layered.   17 
AJ: Layered. 18 
AK: I always love to say its strategic, so it depends on where I am and how I describe it. 19 
AJ: Wow, thats interesting. 20 
AK: Absolutely  and to what end, that that matters a lot.  So, but for me to people who really want 21 to know, I identify as trans male, I identify as butch, I identify as gender fluid or gender queer, 22 and all of that works pretty good for me  and I was once a little girl.   23 
AJ: Works for me.  What is your earliest memory, Aidan?  The first thing you remember in life?  It 24 could be around gender, it doesnt have to be . . . just, you know. 25 
AK: I remember being at my great-grandparents house in the fall with my grandfather raking leaves 26 into big piles and jumping in them. 27 
AJ: Really? 28 
AK: That was in Kalamazoo, Michigan, so the trees there  they dropped some leaves.  Absolutely. 29 
AJ: Ive never been to Kalamazoo, but I grew up in the Midwest so I know theres a lot of leaves.  30 Yeah.  So, you were born in Kalamazoo, Michigan? 31 
AK: Yes. 32 
AJ: Thats fascinating.  Did you grow up and go to school there and do all of that stuff?   33 
AK: No, no.  My mom was raised by my great-grandparents and it wasnt working for her.  The 1 generational gap between them, the time  the mid-1960s, she really was a free-spirit 2 independent and she wanted to get unleashed.  Well, she happened to get knocked up which 3 doesnt help a lot, but ultimately she did try to have a brief marriage with my father and that 4 didnt work  he was abusive, drinking problem, and all of that.  So she cut out of there pretty 5 quick, probably within the first year of that relationship and then, I believe, it was probably a 6 couple years later she threw two little toddlers, because I have an identical twin sister . . .  7 
AJ: Is that right? 8 
AK: Thats right. 9 
AJ: Wow, identical twins.  Any more siblings, or just the two of you? 10 
AK: I have half siblings that I dont know, with the exception of one half-sibling from my biological 11 father who has recently friended me on Facebook. 12 
AJ: Your biological father? 13 
AK: My biological half-sister. 14 
AJ: Half-sister  wow. 15 
AK: My biological father passed away, but my mom threw us in the car and we drove across the 16 country to California, to the L.A. area, where she tried to do both . . . be a young independent 17 free-spirited woman in the 1960s and raise two kids.  It was a juggling . . . she got some of it 18 right on each side and some of it wrong on each side of that equation.   19 
AJ: Hey, shes a human being, right? 20 
AK: Yes, she is. 21 
AJ: Thats kind of what happens.  So you actually grew up, then, in California?  Or parts of 22 California? 23 
AK: No. 24 
AJ: OK, all right. 25 
AK: Theres more. 26 
AJ: Im just going to keep following this story and Im going to hand on, it sounds like its a ride. 27 
AK: Oh, lets see.  We lived in El Segundo, I think a few other places, but thats the place I remember 28 up until I was about seven.  She met a fellow, a boyfriend, and he said, Come with me to 29 Hawaii, so we zipped over to Hawaii.  That was an interesting experience, I wasnt there very 30 long.  One thing that was pretty exciting is that you could go to school in shorts and barefoot, so 31 that was not something that could happen at our other school. 32 
AJ: Certainly not in Kalamazoo. 33 
AK: No, no.  The other thing was that all the kids were the children of the plantation farmers, so my 1 sister and I were the only white kids in the school.  That was really . . .  2 
AJ: What was that experience like? 3 
AK: It wasnt bad and it wasnt good, it was silent.  So, coming from L.A., a very racially diverse 4 neighborhood and school and all of that, this was my first experience at that age, that young 5 age, of seeing something different.  I might have one other thing to say that will back me up a 6 moment. 7 
AJ: Go ahead. 8 
AK: But let me just finish about Hawaii and that we, its not the royal we  we my sister . . . thats my 9 first pronoun preference. 10 
AJ: We, OK. 11 
AK: Thats how I grew up  we.  Wed go try to talk to another kid or go over by the swing set or 12 engage some different way in the class, and the kids would just get up off the swings and walk 13 away  just quietly.  And so any place that we did, and that was a really . . . I dont know what 14 youd call it, it was just a . . .  15 
AJ: Discomforting?   16 
AK: I understood it was about skin color, but I cant tell you why I understood that except that we 17 were the only white kids there.  So while it wasnt . . . like I said, it wasnt awful, it was just kind 18 of strange.  We werent there very long so I suspect that over time, that would have changed.  19 But, it definitely was a seed planted, like an observation  like the many information seedlets 20 that we get over time informs the rest of my life.  The other experience that was pretty pivotal 21 for me was being at a friend of my moms house, or apartment, and we were playing with their 22 kids in this girls room and we were probably . . . again probably 6 or 7, and this was an African 23 American family and the girl says, Dont stand close to the window.  OK, why?  Why?  My 24 cousin got shot at through that window. 25 
AJ: Oh, wow. 26 
AK: So immediately I feel afraid because who wants to get shot.  But what was also interesting to me 27 was seeing how she just talked about it, its her bedroom  its where she sleeps, its where 28 theoretically youre supposed to have a great degree of safety, and she has to warn us to stay 29 away from the window. 30 
AJ: Was this in Los Angeles or . . .? 31 
AK: Yes. 32 
AJ: OK, so it was in Los Angeles.  Wow.  In El Segundo. 33 
AK: Yes, exactly.  Those two instances were my first experience of understanding some elements of 34 racism. 35 
AJ: Racism . . . you also, I mean the experience you described in Hawaii gave you a sense of being 1 the other and the sense of being in the minority. 2 
AK: Yeah.  It was . . . I think one of the gifts that the universe, or God or whatever you want to call it, 3 gave me, was my best friend in the womb with me. 4 
AJ: Yes. 5 
AK: And forward.  That helped temper a lot of situations in life because I always had my best friend 6 with me.  So what those situations might have been like, just as a single kid  a solo kid, might 7 have been different.  But also, because there was no expressed animosity it was just more 8 intriguing.  What is this?  What does this mean?  What is this about?  Yeah.  And just at a 9 surprisingly young age, I feel like I just understood some things that I would later give language 10 to and broader context and all of that.  But yeah, it was interesting. 11 
AJ: Thats quite an interesting upbringing so far and were still only at seven years old.  Where did 12 you go to high school?   13 
AK: Up in Alaska. 14 
AJ: Wow, so you went from one extreme to quite another one.   15 
AK: After a second grader in Hawaii was trying to sell me and my sister some pot, my mom said, I 16 cant raise the kids here.   17 
AJ: Wow. 18 
AK: He said, Well, lets go to Alaska, thats another place that I like.  So we went up to Alaska.  I 19 will say that that was roughly around age seven then, because they were short jumps.  And 20 ultimately we had a lot of moves after that.  When I think of home, where did I grow up, I think 21 of Juneau, Alaska. 22 
AJ: Juneau, Alaska. 23 
AK: And I did ultimately graduate from high school there, in 1982, and decided to . . . I was going to 24 college and drove my little VW bug on to the ferry and had it all packed and tried to do my first 25 year at college. 26 
AJ: Right.  Before we start talking about your college experience, when was the first time you 27 recognized your true gender identity? 28 
AK: I think the way Ill answer that question is to just re-frame it a little bit and say, When did I 29 realize that other people did not see me in the way that I felt? 30 
AJ: Got it  perfect.  I love that. 31 
AK: And thats . . . thats those moments when different people  your parents, your teachers, or 32 whoever says, You need to do something different.  No, you cant wear that shirt to class 33 because today is your school pictures day and even though thats your favorite shirt, thats a 34 boys shirt.  Having a lunch box that, Ill never forget it because it was the most terrible 35 experience ever to have to carry this lunch box  it said Beauty Queen on it.  Pink and gowns 1 and . . . 2 
AJ: Sparkles and . . .? 3 
AK: Yeah.  I dont want a beauty queen . . .  4 
AJ: Did your sister have one just like it? 5 
AK: Yes, she did. 6 
AJ: Did she love hers? 7 
AK: I dont remember.  Im sure she wasnt distressed about it in the same way that I was.   8 
AJ: Right. 9 
AK: Whats wrong with Spiderman?  I saw a Spiderman lunch box.  Different things like that, but 10 sometimes . . . what was interesting in my recognition of certain moments is that on one hand I 11 had a mom who was a self-proclaimed feminist and empowerment and all of that.  She just 12 encouraged me in many, many ways that were not traditionally female ways.  So it was always 13 kind of a surprise when I would have to wear that outfit, but that outfit would be, Oh, its 14 because its a gift from your grandmother and were going to this special occasion or going to 15 church or whatever.  So I had these kind of messages that said, Well, if it was up to me as your 16 parent, you could do whatever you want, but theres repercussions for choices made that will 17 impact my mother more so.  So that her choice . . . I could tell that she would insist, every once 18 in a while, that I would wear a dress to church.  But, not every time  but the important times.  19 Mothers Day, Easter  those special occasions where I recognized what was up . . . that she 20 would get more shit than I would. 21 
AJ: Than you would. 22 
AK: Yeah.  And shes . . . the boyfriend came and went, she was a single parent and shes a sexy 23 woman  a young woman.  And yeah, divorces happen, its not as stigmatized as it was then so 24 she was suspect from day one. 25 
AJ: From the beginning  yes. 26 
AK: Also, while we lived in Alaska, that relationship came and went.  We were living in this tiny little 27 mobile home thats rotting, its got two planks down the little narrow hallway because the floor 28 is all rotted out, and its cold  theres thick ice on the inside of the windows, not just the 29 outside.  So shes a single parent with . . . how do you raise these two kids?  Who scooped her 30 up?  Her gave her support and community?  It was the fundamentalist Christians, so that was 31 her entry and, of course, my entry into that Bible church environment and community.  When 32 Im out in the world talking to reporters and stuff like that, they ask that question, When did 33 you know?  Well, OK  Im not going to go into some of the things Im talking about right now, 34 but . . .  35 
AJ: I appreciate that, yeah. 36 
AK: I share one story with them pretty regularly because it was really pivotal.  It was at age 9, there 1 was a time between Sunday School and church where theres roughly 15 minutes and we kids 2 would run around and play and whatever, and adults talk, and then you file in and sit down and 3 listen to the sermon.  This was one of those days I had to wear the dress and its . . . I will never 4 forget it because it felt like you may as well have put me in that room naked  in the foyer of the 5 church naked and put a spotlight on me.  Thats how strange and exposing it felt to wear that.  6 So I dont do my usual  Im not engaging with my friends, Im not running around, I want the 7 wall to open up and suck me in so Im not visible.  Im trying to just hold really still, I dont want 8 anybody to talk to me, but also as Im standing there . . . because the last thing I want to hear is, 9 Oh, you look so pretty in that dress. 10 
AJ: Exactly. 11 
AK: Im looking around though, and I see this couple with a couple of young kids and I realize that 12 thats what they expect me to do  Im supposed to grow up, get married, have a family . . . 13 thats the future.  Its the first time I could contemplate that in a forward way and go, Thats so 14 wrong, thats so wrong.  And I also, at the same time, said, I want to get married and I want to 15 have a family  but I want to be a husband and I want to be the dad. 16 
AJ: You said that at nine years old?  To yourself? 17 
AK: Yes.  And, of course, its coupled with that despair because thats impossible.  That memory is 18 really a powerful one that has served me well even to this day because when families who have 19 trans kids that are nine years old, Arent they too young to know?  Or theyll say, Well, some 20 kids just say, I wish I was born a boy so I could do all these other things, but they dont really 21 want to be a boy.  Well, you know what?  In that moment, that was all I could possibly 22 imagine:  I wish I was a boy.  Instead of saying, I am a boy.  These kids today, they say, I am, 23 and that shocks me.   24 
AJ: I am, right.  Yes. 25 
AK: The boldness, because for me  at nine, no way.  Why dont you sprinkle some fairy dust on me?  26 Its absolutely impossible. 27 
AJ: You knew who you were, but you also knew who you wanted to be. 28 
AK: Yes.  I knew in my heart who I was and the packaging wasnt there. 29 
AJ: Yes. 30 
AK: And when my body started changing in puberty, again despair and this strange sense of shame 31 that actually has nothing to do with gender in a weird way that Im not sure that Ill be able to 32 articulate.  But, it wasnt about, I dont like being a girl, I think boys are better.  I want to be a 33 boy.  It wasnt about valuation, it wasnt about internalized misogyny, whatever some of the 34 things that people speculate, it was - my body is changing in ways that I know its not supposed 35 to.  And its that simple. 36 
AJ: Its just that simple, yeah. 37 
AK: So what do you do with that?  I say, Oh well, Im going to make the best of it.  Fast forwarding, 1 one thing that my mother still was pretty good at was she was so very encouraging of anything 2 non-traditionally female. 3 
AJ: OK. 4 
AK: She told both of us, You can be anything you want to be, but do not be a nurse or a secretary.  5 She had a real handle on those two because she didnt want us to get trapped, she wanted . . . 6 
AJ: In those traditional sort of . . . 7 
AK:  . . . possibility, yeah.  I should never have dropped that typing class though because computers 8 came along. 9 
AJ: Yeah.  Youre the one-finger . . .  10 
AK: Oh, I finally took a class.  Ive got more fingers involved these days  thank God. 11 
AJ: So when you introduced yourself, you talked about these sort of layered terms that you use to 12 identify yourself.  Do you want to say more about that? 13 
AK: I do, I absolutely do.  Labels are interesting  we hate them and we love them, we want them 14 and we dont want them. 15 
AJ: Right. 16 
AK: My first label, besides girl, is twin. 17 
AJ: Right. 18 
AK: And twin ranked up high  the highest probably, because of how it impacted my experience.  19 Moving forward in life, I finally . . . I started distinguishing myself from my sister and not 20 intentionally but just because Im me and shes her.  So when Im thinking about . . . Im hitting 21 junior high school and I watched this cool dude walk by in the hallway, the way hes walking, so I 22 start walking a certain way  my sister, no  not at all.  As a matter of fact, when we both hit 23 puberty, I will absolutely never forget Im standing there talking to her at school, in the hallway, 24 and some boy walks by and says something to her and she turns to say whatever and her face 25 just goes beat red and she cannot get a word out of her mouth. 26 
AJ: Right. 27 
AK: I just looked at her like, What is wrong with you?  And I went home and I told my mom, 28 Something is wrong with Brenda. 29 
AJ: Oh boy. 30 
AK: And I told her what happened and she just got this smile and said, Nope, just wait, within six 31 months youll be doing the same thing.  That was kind of her recipe for whatever and Im like, 32 Hm-hmm, nope, not going to happen.  So ultimately that stupid blushing and articulateness 33 did show up when I turned 19 and had some type of Epiphanes moment that, Oh, Im actually 34 attracted to girls, not boys.  Thats when I got stupid.  I had a brief time in the lesbian 35 community and really was just happy and celebrating and feeling like I found a fit for stuff.  It 1 wasnt all there, it was just part there  it was like thats part of the story but I didnt have 2 enough awareness to think about the rest of it.  But then, I started noticing some of the dykes in 3 my community and there was kind of this little posse of folks that I would see at a regular point 4 in time and they had the black leather on and I was like, Ohhh, whats that?  Just like a moth 5 to a flame.  They were, most of them, older than me  15 or 20 years older, and so I was just a 6 little baby and they just scooped me up.  I remember actually going to a conference and the 7 discussion was about butch or whatever, and I remember standing outside that door just going, 8 Oh, I want to go in there, I cant go in there.  And finally a friend said, What are you doing?  9 Are you coming in?  I said, I dont know if people consider me butch enough.  Get in here.  10 Drug me in there, and that was that.  That is still, to this day, one of my most dear labels 11 because it was finally somebody that said, I see who you are and I value who you are and this is 12 not . . . masculinity is a beautiful thing and it doesnt matter who is wearing it  youre wearing it 13 and youre wearing it well.  That was fantastic.  So thats a label that when I started 14 contemplating gender and the possibility of transitioning, Ill never forget some younger dyke 15 coming to me and saying, So, what?  You still identify as butch?  Like that was the most 16 ludicrous thing possible.  I remember in that moment just thinking, Do I let this young person 17 take this away from me?  No.  And I just said, Yeah, yeah, thats mine.   18 
AJ: Thats my identity.   19 
AK: And I dont care if it doesnt make sense.  So, yeah.   20 
AJ: So youve been through twin and Im sure youre still twin. 21 
AK: Yes. 22 
AJ: We, lesbian, butch. 23 
AK: I never used the word lesbian. 24 
AJ: Never? 25 
AK: No, that time frame for us . . . we felt a little edgier to say dyke, so we always used dyke. 26 
AJ: Got it.  27 
AK: And yeah, then I came out into the leather scene and that was really an amazing wonderful 28 experience.  I learned so much about power, who has it when, shared, when you gift it, when 29 you receive it  that kind of thing.  I had a tight community.  This was a subset in this broader 30 lesbian community and I actually felt like I got some family back, a community family.  Because 31 of the loss of the Christian contingent, right. 32 
AJ: OK, wow. 33 
AK: You come out as a lesbian and theres no room in fundamentalist Christianity for that.  So, yeah. 34 
AJ: So your relationship with your mom, is it . . .? 35 
AK: Its good  absolutely.   36 
AJ: All right, so you didnt lose your mom. 1 
AK: No, nope. She said, I suspected.  And I said, Why didnt you tell me?  She said, Well, I was 2 just kind of hoping I was wrong.  That was hard, now its not so bad.  Shes not there now, she 3 celebrates my life.   4 
AJ: And your twin, I happen to have had the honor and pleasure to meet your twin, so I know you 5 guys are still very close. 6 
AK: Yeah.  But, I tell you what, me sharing with her any of these . . . well, actually I didnt talk to her 7 much about the leather community. 8 
AJ: Right. 9 
AK: Thats my private business, but as far as coming out as a dyke and then coming out as trans, the 10 first one I told her . . . I was in Seattle and she was up in Alaska and we talked on the phone and I 11 told her on the phone.  She was really blown out of the water because the person that she 12 knows the most and is closest to and we know theoretically our most intimate details of our 13 lives and thoughts and all that, here is this big huge thing that she didnt know.  But what she 14 didnt understand is that I didnt know either.  I just told her as soon as I could.  So the gender 15 piece I decided that I wasnt going to wait until I had any solid foundation on it, I was just going 16 to take her with me and tell her I was contemplating this and thinking about it, I didnt know 17 what I was going to do, if anything, or what it meant.  Poor thing, shes got no frame of 18 reference for it.  She says, Does this mean that you are a man trapped in a womens body?  19 And I said, Not exactly.  And with hindsight, the kind thing might have been to say yes so that 20 she would have . . .  21 
AJ: It would give her something to hold on to.   22 
AK: But I didnt do that because I wasnt ready to make it . . . it wasnt simple. I liked the 23 layeredness.  But when I was talking to her about it, probably within the space of just a few 24 seconds I saw fear, rage, confusion, hilarity, all these emotions just whoosh, whoosh, whoosh  25 through this crazy weird morphing thing that I just wish I could have filmed that. 26 
AJ: Wow. 27 
AK: That would be the worlds shortest, most powerful movie about emotional experience ever. 28 
AJ: Right. 29 
AK: Oh God, Ill never forget it.   30 
AJ: So your sister rode that train with you from the beginning. 31 
AK: Yeah. 32 
AJ: The journey to . . . 33 
AK: You know, at this point, I had been in a relationship for a number of years  this is a number of 34 years later, Im in my early 30s by the time Im really digging into gender, or looking at gender. 35 While I had become aware of the possibility of transition, I sort of said, Well, theyre kind of like 36 us.  Meaning us in the dyke community  the butches.  Theyre like us.  But I still didnt bring 1 it that close to home yet  it was probably another . . . I dont know, maybe even decade before 2 I did that. 3 
AJ: I want to go back to the leather community for a minute.  What identity do you sort of hold in 4 that space? 5 
AK: Well, the primary identity that I had was as a butch bottom and definitely more . . . I really loved 6 the physicality of the leather community, so more of the role playing and stuff like that was not 7 so much for me, but the physical aspect of it.  Im not going to elaborate a whole lot. 8 
AJ: No, thats fine, but thats where you were.   9 
AK: Yeah, and I really loved that.  It tied in with the athletics that I had done in high school.  I trained 10 as a power lifter for a while, and thats an intense mental and physical, obviously, sport that 11 requires ones mind to really align well to navigate it.  So when you train really heavy, for heavy 12 lifts, and compete, theres times where youve got wraps around your knees when youre about 13 ready to do a squat.  The weight is so heavy you have to wrap them so tightly that you dont 14 blow your knees out by squatting down once and coming back up.  You cant bend your leg at all 15  like youre walking stiff legged, and then at some point youre dropping down with your 16 weight and youre coming back up and its excruciating  just the wraps digging into your legs, 17 but youre doing it because you want to accomplish something, you want to achieve this, you 18 want to say, I can do this.  And so in a very similar way, my experience in the leather 19 community was like that too. 20 
AJ: It replicates that. 21 
AK: Yeah.  And I wanted to get in my body and that was a way that I could just really kind of 22 experiment and push myself and, How does this feel?  How does that feel?  And think about 23 physical pain  what is physical pain?  It hurts a lot more if youre scared of it.  If youre not 24 afraid of it, its just a sensation that can be moved through with some good . . . I dont know 25 what?  Concentration or contemplation or focus, all of that kind of stuff.   26 
AJ: You bring me to an interesting question and one that I dont think Ive asked to date.  What 27 percentage, would you say, the transgender experience, for you, is about body and physicality 28 versus emotionality and sort of internal feelings? 29 
AK: That is an excellent question and I would say that . . . there is a much higher percentage that is 30 about the physical.  Like, what do I expect my body to feel like?  What do I expect to see when I 31 look in the mirror?  And its so much less about man and woman, its about I want to see me.   32 
AJ: Right. 33 
AK: Yeah.  Additionally, I dont hear much about this from people within the trans community, 34 although I think thats changing more and more, which is when I would be around a group of 35 people discussing gender, they would talk about, Oh, I always felt myself to be a boy, or, I 36 wanted to do this or I wanted to do that.  Just these different things  or, Everybody made me 37 wear a dress.  Oh God, so traumatizing.  But . . . where was I going with that?   38 
AJ: The question was around physicality versus sort of emotional and . . .  1 
AK: Theres something I wanted to say  anyway, it will come back.  Oh, I know  when I actually 2 decided to move forward and take a step towards transition, lets try some hormones, lets see 3 what do I feel about that, what do I think about that.  And I started progressing and I thought, 4 Well this is good. A relief, like this is how Im supposed to feel, this is how my body should 5 respond in this situation and that could be in the bed, sexually.  6 
AJ: Right, right. 7 
AK: I had a very difficult time  its one thing to please a partner but then to receive was 8 outrageously difficult.  Im like, OK, so you had seven orgasms, wheres my one  I just want 9 one, OK. 10 
AJ: Just one.   11 
AK: Stuff like that. 12 
AJ: But I dont want you to touch this part and you cant touch that part. 13 
AK: But I would try, I pushed myself  because I wanted to find out.  Honestly, if shes having so 14 much fun, I want that fun too. 15 
AJ: Sure. 16 
AK: And why cant I have that fun?  Theres no reason that I could identify.  I dont have a history of 17 sexual abuse  what, what, what is it?  Having no name for it and just being frustrated with the 18 fact that I dont want to be there, Id like to be proactive and move through that.  And the 19 leather community and other situations, I would work it and actually going to places of really 20 physical discomfort.  Like, Yeah, no I dont want you to touch me there but I actually do want 21 you to because I want to see if I can move through some things.  So I did a lot of work there and 22 ultimately thats what led me to transition.   23 
AJ: Hmmm. 24 
AK: Because thats what changed.  So again, not about identity as a man or a woman in the world.  I 25 had a lot of empowerment as I grew up, with the cards I was dealt.  I was out and proud and all 26 of that.  I had good friends, good community, wasnt interested in losing any of that.  I just 27 wanted my body to be more like I expected.  And what was also interesting is that my 28 community, that butch femme community especially, they all got it.  Maybe they didnt talk 29 about it, but they got it.   30 
AJ: They got it. 31 
AK: Ill never forget going to a store, I was going to get a few shirts and I was trying some on.  I 32 would try it on in the dressing room and then step out. My girlfriend would look and say, Yeah, 33 I like that one, or, No, I dont.  Every time I looked in the mirror, they were different . . . sort 34 of stripes or things like that.  Some of them the stripes or the way it was cut would show the 35 curve of the breast and some made me look more . . .  36 
AJ: Sort of straight on . . .  37 
AK: Flat and straight, yeah.  So I noticed, I paid attention.  I knew I didnt want this shirt because it 1 emphasized my breasts more, so every time Id step out and she was like, No, not that one.  2 One that flattened or didnt emphasize that, Oh yeah, that one looks great.  Shirt after shirt 3 after shirt, right on the mark.  Did we talk to each other about that thats the detail that were 4 paying attention to?  I never did talk to her about it. 5 
AJ: But she picked up on it. 6 
AK: I think there was a lot going on in the community.  I remember one person saying, Well why do 7 you want to transition?  This is somebody else in the dyke community.  Why do you want to 8 transition? I get it about the phantom penis and the this and the that . . . - naming all these 9 things that she had experienced with other butch partners and then shes telling me she doesnt 10 get it.  What dont you get?  You just named it all?   11 
AJ: Right, exactly.   12 
AK: Its this weird thing.  Anyway, what I feel like, and I think my age plays into this pretty 13 significantly, is that Im hitting this older dyke community that has a different sense of man and 14 woman, of masculinity and femininity, of sexuality and all of that, and Im just the kid soaking it 15 up.  Im like, OK, yeah.  I tell them, if they are open to listening, that you led me there  you 16 led me straight to this door and then you said, Dont go through it. 17 
AJ: Right. 18 
AK: And for me its just this little . . . one more step, for them it was, You crossed the line from us to 19 them, from good to bad, from amazing women to bad men. 20 
AJ: Did you lose lesbian community? 21 
AK: Thats a really good question.  I was part of many conversations where this issue was discussed, 22 Were creating women-only space, so what does that look like?  Dyke space, leather dyke 23 space.  Creating a conference  whats that about?   Who gets to go?  And I watched this line 24 being made over and over that did this and snaked over here to grab this person and then got 25 that person but not them.  Oh yeah, not the drag queens, which was their term for trans 26 women. 27 
AJ: Right.  And to be fair, trans women referred to themselves as drag queens at some point in time. 28 
AK: Right, but a number of . . . yeah, yeah. 29 
AJ: Not today, but . . . 30 
AK: I felt in this particular case it was being disrespectful and just . . . theyre not women, theyre not 31 women.  It was hard for me as a younger person to be in on those conversations because I 32 would think, you know what?  If someone goes to such huge lengths to become who they are 33 and risk ostracism from everyone, who am I to say theyre not a woman?  Who am I to say that?  34 So I want, myself and a few other people would say, Well why dont we just let people self-35 define?  And always in the minority and the majority were trying to find these fancy ways, 36 again chromosomes and body parts and this and that, and I watched the hypocrisy because 37 some of the people in the leadership were trans men or a part of our community and women 38 come in all shapes and sizes and youll see some women that dont really look like youd expect 1 a woman to look because they want their friends and fuck buddies, or whatever, to go.  And 2 then, Oops, they break up, and now its like, No, no trans men, they want their cake and eat 3 it too, they have to make up their mind, privilege, blah, blah, blah.  And just this personal 4 break-up that didnt go well turns into a political statement.  Thats bullshit, dont go there. 5 
AJ: Wow, you are giving me everything right now, Aidan. 6 
AK: I got lots.   7 
AJ: Yes, you do.  You touched a little bit on sort of hormones.  To the extent that you feel 8 comfortable can you talk about any medical transition-related stuff? 9 
AK: Absolutely.  Testosterone didnt scare me, it seemed I was ready for it and I wanted to.  The part 10 that scared me was what does it mean to transition and what will my life look like.  But when I 11 started with testosterone, it just felt like the missing piece.  My body changes, my emotional 12 responses to situations were more like I felt like I wanted them to be.  And not that my 13 emotions themselves were any different, but my physiological response to them was different.  14 And I really was grateful for that and ultimately it led to a recognition that cis men are such bull 15 shitters about their physical supremacy because, Im sorry, theres just an advantage.  16 Testosterone builds muscle, it makes you stronger, you can have more energy.  Estrogen is laden 17 with gravity. 18 
AJ: Yes. 19 
AK: It makes your body heavier and it pushes your emotions all the way to the surface, every single 20 one.  So, yeah  anyway.  But also, as somebody whod had this really wonderful . . . I had an 21 encouraging upbringing, be who you want to be kind of thing.  And then I had this mentoring 22 from these bulldaggers and femme dykes that really just showed me love for quite a number of 23 years.  But that needle in the butt is the crossing the line, it was very difficult for them and I 24 understood all the debates because Id been part of them  and the discussion about butch 25 flight was present, and heres where my age comes into it.  Im nave.  I think, Well if theyre 26 just worried about that, Im not going anywhere.  Oh my God, how nave I was.  So I thought, If 27 thats one of the complaints, Im just going to stay. And so I did, and what I did day-by-day was 28 continue to show up.  I showed up at the dyke bar, I showed up at the womens play parties, I 29 showed up at our social events.  I just continued to say, Im here, Im here.  It was 30 uncomfortable.  I would grab a friend and Id say, Please, will you go with me to the Wild 31 Rose? the Seattle lesbian bar, Will you go with me, I just need to be there?  They need to see 32 me because if I dont go for six months or a year or whatever, and my physical changes . . . I 33 could be standing right in front of me and theyll say, Youre gone, because of the bigger 34 effects.  So I viewed it as going to work, Im going to work.  And Id sit at the bar . . . whatever, 35 Id sit there chit-chatting with my friend and then the drinks flow and as soon as everybody has 36 enough booze in them, theyre coming over asking questions.  So, that was my first activist act 37 as a trans person. 38 
AJ: Wow, just showing up in womens space. 39 
AK: Not leaving. 40 
AJ: And not leaving, yeah.  Any other surgical things or . . .? 1 
AK: I didnt really get to your question actually.  I had chest reconstructive surgery, I wanted that 2 really bad and I also was terrified because that was a . . . you know, theyre gone, theyre gone.  I 3 didnt have the crystal ball. 4 
AJ: But you can stop testosterone. 5 
AK: Right.  And thats the only way I could start was by telling myself, You can stop any time you 6 want.   7 
AJ: Right. 8 
AK: So you dont have to look at this in a big picture and if its too much for you, you can take your 9 dose way down.  You can stop, you can start again  whatever.  But surgery, not that there 10 wouldnt be things I could do if I decided I wanted them back, but I couldnt imagine that.  So, 11 yeah, I went and had chest surgery.  And as far as any kind of lower surgery, Ive not been 12 interested in that.  Ive been curious about it, but ultimately the thing that I talked about . . . the 13 challenge that I had sexually in bed, especially orgasming, was gone and I did not want to fuck 14 with that.  Its like, Its working, its working. 15 
AJ: As soon as the T started flowing. 16 
AK: Thats right.  And I wanted that because, you know, the partners that Ive had have been very 17 amazing and generous with their bodies and we did some beautiful things together, so they 18 gave me a gift that I just couldnt give back.  That mattered to me.  Not only do I want to have 19 some good feelings, but what a beautiful experience and I cant show up to it  and not because 20 Im not trying.   21 
AJ: The body just was not functioning the way you needed it to.  Can I just give you a fist bump of 22 love on camera?  Pow. 23 
AK: Absolutely.   24 
AJ: Yeah, no  thats incredible.  One of the reasons why Im so thrilled that you are here for this 25 interview and willing to sit and share, is I believe youre the founder of this amazing conference 26 that happens in Seattle called, Gender Odyssey.   27 
AK: Thats right, Gender Odyssey. 28 
AJ: When did you start that? 29 
AK: Well, theres a hint in the name.  The conference started in 2001, so we called it . . . it started 30 actually as a trans male conference.  We called it FTM 2001:  A Gender Odyssey, after 2001:  A 31 Space Odyssey.  It was this playful sort of insert name until we find the real name, and it just 32 never went away.  We did drop the FTM, the desire was that there were a few conferences that 33 were more heavily attended by trans women, trans feminine people.   34 
AJ: Southern Comfort, Fantasia . . .  35 
AK: Yup, yup, yup.  That was what I had heard is that people who had gone said, You know, but 1 theres just no programming, we need more programming, or whatever. And so I thought well 2 why not establish that foundation and so that was the first year, 2001.  It drew about 300 3 people, which was fantastic. 4 
AJ: Thats significant, yeah. 5 
AK: Ultimately the stuff that I learned early through my transition, and with my dyke community, 6 was that if I could sit down with them and have a conversation and wed just lay it out, they say 7 what makes them angry, what theyre afraid of, ask questions, whatever  just put it all on the 8 table.  We laugh, we cry, we get angry.  Three hours later, we were back together in our 9 connection, in our close way.  The difference that they had felt was happening, this huge chasm, 10 was now actually not that big of a deal and they understood more . . . theyre like, Oh, it is a 11 smaller choice rather than a bigger choice.  And I decided also that it was impossible to have 12 the number of conversations I needed because theyre exhausting  three hours of emotional 13 turmoil for everybody and getting to the other side.  I wanted to see what could be done if we 14 bring more people together.  I started a workshop, I went to that same bar, and I made up little 15 flyers that said all the things that . . . oh, youre just jumping on the bandwagon, or this is 16 trendy, or you just want male privilege.  I put all the most audacious statements that are out 17 there on the flyer, Come have a conversation.  One of the scariest things Ive ever done, just 18 taking those flyers and handing them to people.  They would take it and they would look at me, 19 look me up and down, and have interesting looks on their faces.  But ultimately people showed 20 up.  I did another one, people showed up.  There was so much to talk about that our couple 21 hour session just got nowhere near it, so I created a six-part series and broke it down  lets talk 22 about our gender in relation to our age, our class, our race, just a number of different things like 23 that  or our ability.  It was over a three-month period, every other week, and each one got 24 bigger and bigger and bigger until we had . . . I dont know, maybe 150 people in the room, in 25 Seattle.  I didnt even know there would be that many people remotely interested. 26 
AJ: Interested  sure. 27 
AK: And then Gender Odyssey pulling people together.  Im only two years into my transition at this 28 point  so two years, Im still figuring up from down, Ive got a little scruff on my face.  Im kind 29 of looking like instead of 35, Im looking like Im 22 and all the fun that goes with that  probably 30 younger than that actually.  But, I needed to hear from more people and thats why I started it.  31 Now what I would recommend to you or anybody ever who says, I want to put something 32 together because I want to have these important conversations, it doesnt work. 33 
AJ: Run, should I run? 34 
AK: No.  If youre putting the conference together youre not in those rooms having those 35 conversations. 36 
AJ: Got it.   37 
AK: Because youre busy mopping the floor or troubleshooting different things. 38 
AJ: Youre not having the conversation. 39 
AK: I get to sneak off every once in a while and dive into a workshop, which I just love, love, love  1 and also one of the reasons why its awesome to come to Creating Change. 2 
AJ: Tell me about your Creating Change experience.  How has that been this weekend? 3 
AK: I have been coming to this conference . . . Ive been probably four or five times.  This weekend 4 has been short, but its the first time . . . my visit has been short, Ill only be able to take in about 5 two-and-a-half days, but its the first time I had a workshop approved, which is awesome. 6 
AJ: Whats your workshop? 7 
AK: I did one called, Navigating the Human Barrier:  Doing Education on Trans Inclusion in K-12 8 Schools.  And more specifically elementary schools and for very, very specific reasons.  So I got 9 to talk to a packed room of people who want to know how to navigate questions, how to 10 advocate for kids, how to handle all that stuff that comes.  What about the bathroom?  That 11 should not be a statement, its always put forth as a statement  nobody wants to stop and say, 12 OK, lets talk about the bathroom.  So I wanted to share with people lessons learned over the 13 past decade of how I get in the door.  Im an out trans person  how is it possible that Im going 14 to elementary schools?  How is that possible?  My mind says there is no way that will ever 15 happen and yet thats all Im doing.   16 
AJ: Wow. 17 
AK: Pretty intense.  And, Im talking to those people that I already discarded because they already 18 discarded me  meaning cis gender, heterosexual populations.  I never thought that I would be 19 where I am, talking to them about how they can receive these children.  And what its done for 20 me in this really amazing way that Im so so happy and amazed, is that I could come in and make 21 the world a different place for those kids so that they actually have some room to find their 22 gender without the panic that goes with it and my little 9-year-old gets to see the possibility, the 23 amazing beauty  and my little 9-year-old feels pretty damn fucking happy right now because I 24 didnt know how much I turned off at that time, how much I pushed down and just said, Its not 25 possible.  And now I get to have my little 9-year-old show up and I didnt know.  Im really 26 passionate and excited about sharing what Im learning with my queer community, my adult 27 queer community, because as much as I didnt see it before I see that many of my peers, my 28 mentors and all of that, they dont see what I see about what this means for the queer 29 community.  My parents of these little kids, these little trans babies, are not . . . they are not cis 30 allies, thats not working for me.  They are trans, they are my trans community, they are the 31 ones holding me and moving a queer movement forward without even knowing it in ways that 32 are not just going to help that trans kid, but its going to help that little boy thats going to grow 33 up to be gay, the young gal thats going to be lesbian, bisexual, pansexual.  All these things, 34 theres a . . . the iceberg is not visible and I want to show everybody what Im seeing.   35 
AJ: Yeah.  One of the highlights of 2015, for me, and 2015 was kind of a big deal year for me.  I was 36 the grand marshal of the Pride Parade in Minneapolis, but one of the biggest highlights was I 37 had the honor of being the keynote speaker, one of the keynote speakers, for the 14th Gender 38 Odyssey. 39 
AK: Thats right. 40 
AJ: And it amazed me how many young trans people, and their families  as you noted, theyre 1 moving the trans community, the queer community forward in ways that allies never could.  And 2 so, that was one of the biggest highlights for me, so my question for you is what is the new, I 3 guess, edge that you see in this transgender movement.  Can you put a name on it?  Can you put 4 some vision to it?   5 
AK: What I see is a complete and utter reframing of what we think of as LGBT community, and 6 additional letters  however many you want to put after that. 7 
AJ: QIA. 8 
AK: AAPD, theres lots of letters, right?   9 
AJ: Sure. 10 
AK: Theres a million Qs and all of that.  In that . . . every one of my generation talks about the ability 11 to express femininity or masculinity but thats in the binary, right?  Masculinity in men, 12 masculinity in women  the range that you can do as a woman is quite broad, less so for men, 13 but ultimately we all just believe that there was some magic dividing line and end of story.  So 14 these younger generations are not trapped by that framework and it is so difficult for people 15 who are walking side by side in these hallways and creating change, to recognize the huge 16 chasm between their understanding.  And thats the metamorphosis that were going through 17 right now and what its also going to do, these younger generations are saying, My gender is 18 expansive, the way I want to express it is expansive, my orientation is more than just sex  its 19 my romantic attractions, its who do I want to be romantic with, who do I want to have sex with, 20 and who do I want for a long-term partner?  They can all be different.   21 
AJ: Yeah. 22 
AK: And people of different genders and/or expressions.  So the expansiveness is so significant and 23 then many of us are trapped by our generational trappings in that, that we cant see how 24 revolutionary it is and what I believe it will do is absolutely erode away at the boundaries 25 between LGBTIQQAPD, etc., alphabet and them, the hets, the cis folk, because heterosexual 26 people and cis people are just as hungry for that freedom. 27 
AJ: Absolutely. 28 
AK: And those younger generations also are having exposure to expanded concepts and there will 29 be a couple walking down the street that you or I might look at and go, Oh, look at the young 30 heterosexual couple.  And theyre not, theyre using . . . I know these people, theyre out there, 31 they exist right now.  Theyre using they and them pronouns, they are talking about their 32 differing identities in relation to gender and that they dont have just one.  But it kind of 33 depends on the context.  And so, Im quite excited about what that might mean and I see that . . 34 . I guess what it means for me is that I dont want to sit and vilify in our political conversations, 35 our conversations around faith, whatever it is I dont want to vilify the heterosexual people, the 36 cis people, as being the bad guys because theyre not.  Weve got that . . . if we cant figure out 37 how to say we with them, then were not going to be able to do we within this conference. 38 
AJ: Wow.  Aidan, I am just so blown away by your generosity, by your insights, which come from 1 experience, and your willingness to share that with me  and us, today.  So, I know Ive got to 2 get you on a flight. 3 
AK: Ah, yes. 4 
AJ: So you can head back to the west coast.  Thank you so much for sharing  until we meet again, 5 my friend. 6 
AK: Absolutely.  Thank you. 7 
AJ: Any last . . . maybe I should do this, any last thing you want to say that I may have missed? 8 
AK: Theres so much to say.  I cant do that, but I guess I would love to just share . . . yesterday was 9 my birthday. 10 
AJ: Happy birthday. 11 
AK: And Im also at Creating Change and I got to be around so many people that I love.  I did this, I 12 did that, I did my workshop, I got to hang with these folks, I got to hang out with some buddies 13 that I never get to hang out with  all in one group. 14 
AJ: I heard you were hanging out with the magnificent Kylar Broadus. 15 
AK: Right, and Willie Wilkinson and Theo Cotton and just so rich and what an amazing conversation 16 we had.  One of them forewent an opportunity to go have some fun, other types of fun, just to 17 stay because our conversation was so good.  But then I came back and I stopped in the lobby on 18 my floor before going into my room, I didnt want to wake up my hotel mate, and I was looking 19 at something and a person was sitting there, this had to have been almost 2am, a conference 20 goer  young African American, shy.  I could tell he was a very shy person, but he said hello.  And 21 so I said hello and the conversation that we had was so amazing and we got to go to this really 22 great, hugely powerful place, and intimate at the same time.  And he told me this experience 23 hed had in a workshop where he said . . . I said, Well, how did that workshop go?  And he 24 said, Well, actually I didnt engage in it very much because I recognized that my presence, or 25 my participation, in it could be triggering for other people.  And we moved the conversation on 26 from there and then at the end, after wed had this amazing conversation, I just said, You know 27 what?  Dont ever do that again  you get in that circle and you let your light shine.  If your 28 existence, if you check out because it triggers somebody else, thats not your responsibility  29 they need to manage that for themselves, you need to show up and let your beauty come out.  30 And that is the highlight of my conference. 31 
AJ: On that note, no more questions  were gone, peace. 32 
AK: Thank you. 33 
 34 

