   
Alex Iantaffi Narrator   Andrea Jenkins Interviewer 
    
The Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies University of Minnesota 
October 6, 2015 
 
 
   

 
  
The Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story, while providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source material about the transgender community.  The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for current and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public. 
The Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300 individuals over the next three years.  Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and experiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality.  This project will be led by Andrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist.  Andrea brings years of experience working in government, non-profits and LGBT organizations.  If you are interested in being involved in this exciting project, please contact Andrea. 
Andrea Jenkins jenki120@umn.edu (612) 625-4379 
   
 
Andrea Jenkins -AJ 1 
Alex Iantaffi  -AI 2 
 3 
 4 
AJ: So, hello.  My name is Andrea Jenkins and I am the oral historian with the Transgender Oral 5 History Project at the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  Today is October 6, 6 2015, and Im here in Minneapolis with Dr. Alex Iantaffi.  Am I pronouncing your name correctly? 7 
AI: Youre pronouncing it perfect. 8 
AJ: Wonderful.  So Alex, Im just going to ask you if you can just state your name and maybe spell it 9 for our transcriber, and tell me what your preferred pronouns are, how you identify today and 10 what was your gender assigned at birth. 11 
AI: My name is Alex Iantaffi.  So Alex is just A-l-e-x and then Iantaffi, its I-a-n-t for table-a-f for 12 Freddie, f-i.  And my pronouns are he/him or they/them.  And my sex assigned at birth was 13 female and I identify as a non-binary gender-queer trans masculine person.   14 
AJ: Wow, thats an identity that I have not heard yet to date.  And its really interesting, youre the 15 21st person that Ive interviewed and I probably have 21 different identities so far  maybe more 16 like 18.  But yeah, this process is just opening my eyes to so many new ideas and new ways of 17 thinking about gender.  Alex, Im going to ask you to . . . were just going to go way back and just 18 say tell me a little bit about your earliest memory.  It doesnt have to be around gender, but the 19 earliest thing you remember. 20 
AI: Thats really hard.  I feel like a lot of my memories from childhood are kind of spotty and the 21 older I get the spottier they get.   22 
AJ: OK. 23 
AI: I guess I have some really great happy memories of hanging out with my grandmother.  My 24 grandmother did most of . . . pretty much all of the child care when I was growing up.  This is my 25 maternal grandmother, so my moms mom.  I spent a lot of time with her and so I have a lot of 26 memories of just being with her, watching TV  she watched a lot of Telenovelas, that was very 27 popular in Italy.  So South American Telenovelas dubbed in Italian. 28 
AJ: Oh wow. 29 
AI: It was fascinating.  And she was a seamstress so she spent a lot of time sewing and she sewed all 30 of our . . . most of our nice clothes growing up.  So we would have jeans and t-shirts, it was the 31 1970s, but then anything that was like formal wear for an occasion or for a recital, because I was 32 studying music, my grandma would make it. 33 
AJ: So she was very talented. 34 
AI: Yeah, thats how she supported my mom and my uncle when they were growing up.   35 
AJ: Oh wow.  36 
AI: She was really great and she didnt want to pass it on because she wanted my mom to not have 1 to rely on a manual trade.  So she made sure my mom went to high school, because my 2 grandma stopped her education when she was in 3rd grade elementary school.  Thats how far 3 she went with formal education.  But she taught me because I was the grandchild, so I 4 remember sewing Barbie clothes and trying to learn how to sew with her.  So yeah, those are 5 some of my early memories. 6 
AJ: Wow, so you grew up in Italy? 7 
AI: Yes. 8 
AJ: Which part? 9 
AI: Mostly I was brought up in Rome, which is where we lived.  All of the Christmas holidays, Easter 10 holidays, all our summers, were spent in Sicily with my great aunts and my grandma, mostly 11 because my mom and dad usually either got second jobs while they had the summer off from 12 school or were getting ready for school because they were both teachers.  So, we spent a lot of 13 time with the great aunts and my grandmother in Sicily, probably about four months out of the 14 year if we add up like the summer and the Christmas holidays and everything  four months we 15 would be in Sicily. 16 
AJ: So you were in sort of the most famous parts of Italy. 17 
AI: Thats right  Rome and Sicily. 18 
AJ: Rome and Sicily.  I mean theres Florence and all of those kinds of places but people really think 19 about Rome. 20 
AI: Yes. 21 
AJ: And the Vatican and Sicily as sort of main points of interest in Italy.  What was it like growing up 22 in Rome? 23 
AI: It was good, it was . . . you know, when youre little you dont know that youre in one of the 24 most prominent places in the world, you just live your life, right? 25 
AJ: Its just home. 26 
AI: So when I was really little, at first we lived with my paternal grandmother and aunt  when I was 27 a baby.  So my mom and dad were kind of being put up by my paternal grandmother and my 28 aunt.  And then for a short period of time we had our own apartment and then we moved in 29 with my grandmother.  So it was my maternal grandmother, my parents, and myself and my 30 sister didnt come along until I was 10.  So it was crowded but a lot of working class families 31 were crowded and were used to being in a one- or two-bedroom apartment.  I was within 32 walking distance of my school, which I really loved  my elementary school.  And I loved going to 33 church  church was my refuge because it was quiet.  By the time I was seven or eight, because 34 there was only one road crossing to go there, I was allowed to go by myself.  So if I wanted to 35 escape the house I could do that.  And then the nuns were nearby and I did my first communion 36 with them and so I would go to Sunday school and there would be games and other kids and I 37 really loved that.  And pretty much everybody I knew, apart from some family friends, was 38 within very short walking distance when I was in my elementary school.  Things changed in 1 middle school but that was kind of the early part.  And then in middle school, my parents got a 2 flat in this old area that was very left leaning  there was still a Communist party at the time.  3 My dad was a trade union organizer and . . .  4 
AJ: Which kind? 5 
AI: A trade union. 6 
AJ: A trade union. 7 
AI: And a card-carrying Communist.   8 
AJ: Oh wow, OK. 9 
AI: He was one of those which . . . I think I can say it now and not endanger my immigration status. 10 
AJ: Was that Mussolini or . . .? 11 
AI: No, no  Communism.   12 
AJ: Communism. 13 
AI: Communism, as in Russian Communism. 14 
AJ: Oh wow. 15 
AI: Marx and all that, yeah. 16 
AJ: OK, wow  Marx. 17 
AI: So no fascism, total opposite  total opposite. 18 
AJ: All right, educate me. 19 
AI: So very left wing.  So I was brought up in a very left-wing . . . so my dad was very left wing and 20 my mom and my moms mom were Catholic which, in Italy, it was not a very good mix.  Most 21 Communists were atheists and most Catholics really were suspicious of Communists.  And so 22 this was a thing.  23 
AJ: A mixed marriage almost. 24 
AI: It was a mixed marriage.  When we went to Sicily, people in the streets would say things like, 25 Oh, you are the daughter of Hammer and Sickle, which is a symbol of the Communist party.  26 So I started to become more aware of my parents identities, also they got this . . . like a 27 mortgage-supported flat for the first time.  Wed always rented so this was the first flat they 28 bought, and my mom just finished paying off her mortgage just a few years ago. 29 
AJ: Oh wow. 30 
AI: So we moved into this flat when I was 10 years old in this high rise, its a very inner city area.  A 31 lot of stuff was under construction, church was kind of in a . . . like in a garage, and a lot of 32 families would slam the door in the face of the priest because there was a lot of Communists 1 families that moved there. 2 
AJ: Oh wow. 3 
AI: But I would also go to church so I was in this weird . . . I was in the Scouts, and the Scouts would 4 go to church on Sundays all together.  So it was this really weird shift from being in an older part 5 of Rome to a very newly built part of Rome.  And thats when, also, there was more distinction 6 between realizing that I was from a more working class background than a middle class  7 because when we were renting we were in a more mixed-income neighborhood, and I was also 8 in elementary school.  So we moved, but because I was doing well in school I went to this music-9 oriented public school and so I would commute to school to this very shish-y neighborhood 10 where I didnt have a lot in common with the other kids.  I got bullied a lot and I would . . . 11 homemade clothes that my grandma would make. 12 
AJ: I was going to ask . . . sure, that wasnt really a good thing. 13 
AI: Which looking back, they were beautiful  it was like handmade couture.  But thats now how 14 you think when youre in middle school, I was just ashamed. 15 
AJ: Yeah.   16 
AI: And it was the 1980s and there was all this fashion that was so different from what my 17 grandmother was making.  But I was doing well and I did well with music, but I wasnt doing well 18 with the other subjects  because music was mostly one-on-one, depending on what instrument 19 you played. 20 
AJ: What instrument did you play? 21 
AI: I played the piano. 22 
AJ: Really? 23 
AI: Thats the same piano  over there, that is the same piano. 24 
AJ: Is that right?  Lets see if we can get a shot of this piano over here.  Wow, thats beautiful.   25 
AI: That piano my parents started renting from Ricordi, which was this big music shop in Rome, 26 when I was about seven or eight years old.  Id been studying the piano for a couple of years 27 with . . . one of my moms friends mom was a piano teacher, so they did some sort of a barter 28 for me to have lessons.  They rented it every month and then when I was about 15, the shop 29 was like, Youve been renting it so long, why dont you just buy it at a reduced price.  So they 30 bought the piano and its the same piano. 31 
AJ: Wow. 32 
AI: And its a really good piano. 33 
AJ: Does it still play well? 34 
AI: It still plays and we tune it and my daughter has been learning how to play on that piano, which 1 is really nice.  So that piano went from Italy to England and then it was shipped from England to 2 here when we moved to the states.  So yeah, by the time I was in high school I was aware that 3 we lived in this beautiful city.  My dad was very educated even though were kind of working 4 class poors.  We didnt want for anything but I was aware that I wasnt getting vacations like my 5 friends  wed just go visit the great aunts and stay at their house.  But he was really well 6 educated so he would take me around Rome, we would go to different churches every Sunday, 7 he would show me all this art.  So I was kind of bathed in history  we would be studying 8 Michelangelo and you could go and look at Michelangelos work; youre studying Bernini and 9 you can go and look up Berninis work.  It was incredible. 10 
AJ: Wow. 11 
AI: And then my music teachers taught me how to get . . . theres a special student card that costs 12 like nothing to go and see the most prominent musicians that would play, but you would go to 13 the rehearsal.  So they would let music students come to the dress rehearsal for like $10 a year 14 or something, not even.  So I would go to all these concerts, Ive seen Uto Ughi live and a signed 15 autograph. 16 
AJ: How do you spell his name? 17 
AI: Oh, Uto Ughi  U-t-o U-g-h-i.  He was a very popular string musician when I was growing up.  18 And then also my dad knew how to get free tickets to the national theatre through the library  19 because there was a lot of initiatives.  We were in a very low-income neighborhood, so if you 20 went to the library, to a talk, then they would give you free tickets to go to the theatre, that kind 21 of stuff.  So, we had all this privilege of education that my dad brought.  And my dad had a really 22 different background from my mom.  He was brought up in kind of a theatre family where . . . 23 
AJ: So an artistic . . .? 24 
AI: Artistic and very well educated, but poor by choice rather than poor by background. 25 
AJ: Wow, OK. 26 
AI: You know, when you are artists and you choose to be an artist full time its not a really well-27 paying job.   28 
AJ: No, its not.   29 
AI: And even worse for women  like my paternal grandmother would be . . . it was as good as 30 being a whore to be a cabaret artist.  She was a singer and an actor, she would probably be 31 considered like a burlesque artist and singer nowadays. 32 
AJ: OK. 33 
AI: Which is very respectful now but not so respectable in the early 1900s in Italy.   34 
AJ: Right, exactly. 35 
AI: So anyway, there was a lot of difference between my families.  I loved all the art and I loved the 36 church.  Church just kept being this refuge for me and I spent a lot of time with priests and nuns, 37 there were priests and nuns from all over the world.  There were people from all over the world, 1 so I had this awareness that the world was a really big place. 2 
AJ: Big place, yeah. 3 
AI: Right from the beginning, and then I would go to my moms village in Sicily where the world was 4 a really small place.  I wasnt allowed to walk around boys, that wasnt allowed at the time.  Its 5 different now, but in the 1970s and 1980s, if you walked with a boy in the main square then that 6 would compromise your honor, unless you were engaged.  And so I was a bit of a rebel and I 7 would like . . . I had a lot of male best friends so I would just go around and . . .  8 
AJ: I wonder why. 9 
AI: Exactly, lots of things make sense with hindsight.  So it was wonderful to be in Rome because 10 there were all these opportunities that I dont think I would have had in a small town and I loved 11 that, I loved that.  And I loved all the exposure to all the different languages and people from all 12 over the world, and priests and nuns from all over the world come to Rome because of the 13 Vatican.  I got to get communion from John Paul II when I was 18. 14 
AJ: Oh my goodness, wow.   15 
AI: Yeah, that was pretty exciting.  Our church finally got built . . .  16 
AJ: He was one of the more popular Popes. 17 
AI: Yes, the good Polish Pope, not Ratzinger.  So he came to inaugurate our church when it was 18 finally built and consecrate it, which took a long time  several years.  The younger people could 19 get communion from the Pope directly and I was very active in my church, so I was one of the 20 young people selected to receive communion from the Pope because Id been teaching Sunday 21 school since I was like 14, to the younger kids.   22 
AJ: Wow.   23 
AI: So as soon as I was confirmed I was allowed to teach Sunday school to the younger kids.  So that 24 was . . . my mom still has a photo of me getting communion from the Pope, and theres me with 25 my very short hair, my little glasses, and my super nerdy sweater.   26 
AJ: Oh wow.   27 
AI: Its a great photo, I should find it and send you a copy.  That would be really fun.  My mom has it 28 so I should ask her to take a good copy with her camera.  So yeah, it was this weird contrast 29 between feeling like my world was really small in some ways because I didnt travel until I was in 30 my young adult years.  I didnt really travel outside of Italy until I was 16, that was my first trip 31 out of the country.  But at the same time it was really big because I lived in Rome.  Thats a really 32 long answer . . . I can keep going about my childhood.   33 
AJ: I want to know about the childhood but I want to know more details about . . . so when was the 34 first time you recognized that you were different from the gender you were assigned at birth? 35 
AI: I keep thinking about this and Im not sure.  I have photos of myself and those I do have . . . like I 36 have this photo of myself as a 6- or 7-year-old person and I just look like a boy.  I would go 37 around in track suits and my hair was super short and I loved that.  And even when I was really 1 tiny, like 3 or 4-years-old, I have these photos where I dont fit the girl stereotype and I had all 2 this . . . I knew that I didnt, especially when I got to middle school I didnt feel like I was like the 3 other girls.  There was zero transgender visibility when I was growing up in Italy in the 1970s and 4 1980s  like none. 5 
AJ: Pretty much all around the world but . . .  6 
AI: But especially in Italy.  Even when I was out as queer in my 20s, so this would be the second half 7 of the 1990s, there was one lesbian restaurant in Rome where you had to buzz  and it didnt 8 say anything on the outside, you had to know it was there.  And they would buzz you in, it would 9 be locked. 10 
AJ: Oh wow. 11 
AI: It was like a secret society.  So there is a lot of visibility now, but there wasnt when I was 12 growing up at all. 13 
AJ: Did you ever go to the lesbian restaurant? 14 
AI: I did, when I was in my 20s, and it was great.  So I didnt know what was going on, but I knew 15 that I really liked . . . I had more in common with boys and I liked hanging out with boys, but I 16 also . . . middle school, high school is when you realize who youre attracted to, I was also 17 attracted to them so it was really confusing.  18 
AJ: Sure.  You were attracted to boys? 19 
AI: Yes, mostly.  But then I had these very strong female friendships where I would be very . . . now, 20 with hindsight I would call it romantic, but at the time it was very innocent because I was very 21 Catholic, so I didnt think about sex.  So it was very innocent but very intense  like I have this 22 best friend who wrote me like love poems, but I didnt know they were love poems at the time.  23 I was like, That is really cute.  Shes younger than me, shes looking up to me.  That kind of 24 thing.  Now in hindsight, Im like, Hmmm, how fascinating.  So I would have these very 25 occasional intense female friendships and very intense relationships . . . like friendships with 26 boys where often I would also have huge crushes on these close friends, and it was all very 27 confusing.  And, I was very nerdy so not a lot . . . there wasnt a lot of awareness, I guess, of my 28 sexuality.  It was a confusing time.  In terms of gender presentation, I kept my hair short for 29 most of my life.  I had a brief period in my life, in my late 20s, very early 30s, where my hair was 30 long  for like a half-minute and that was it, and then I was done.  My dad would take me to the 31 barber to get my hair cut. 32 
AJ: Really?  You went to the barber to get your hair cut? 33 
AI: Yeah, but it was like - oh, thats just practical  barbers charge way less than hairdressers, which 34 is true.   35 
AJ: This is true. 36 
AI: In Italy its very acceptable to be very tactile with people and so I would hold hands with my 37 girlfriends, my friends who were girls.  I would also be really . . . it would be fine to hang out 38 with the boys because . . . you know, the 1970s and 1980s, there was a lot around feminism.  So 1 I was like, Maybe Im just a very feminist kind of girl.  I was trying to make sense of who I was.  2 But yeah, there was this weird and inverted . . .  3 
AJ: But a feminist girl would not hang out with the guys. 4 
AI: Right?  I know.  I really didnt know, so this was just my life.  I would go get my hair cut at the 5 barbers, people would often mistake me for a boy on the bus and I thought that was great. 6 
AJ: So you got sir-ed and him and . . .  7 
AI: Young man. 8 
AJ: Young man. 9 
AI: And I loved it.  10 
AJ: It didnt make you feel any kind of . . .  11 
AI: No, it felt really good.  12 
AJ: OK, all right. 13 
AI: But then it wasnt until years ago that I realized oh, most 16-year-old girls would feel really 14 offended or really weird if somebody mis-gendered them.   15 
AJ: Deeply offended. 16 
AI: Whereas I was like, This is so cool.   17 
AJ: OK. 18 
AI: I think I mostly was just plain confused and I never thought . . . I didnt feel like I had a gender or 19 a sexuality for a lot of time growing up.  I also enjoyed playing with Barbies and musicals, and I 20 was very musical.  And a lot of nuns had very short hair because its very practical and youre 21 supposed to have short hair if youre a nun. 22 
AJ: Oh really, I didnt know that. 23 
AI: Because it gets really messy otherwise, under the veil.  Very few nuns have got long hair.  So it 24 wasnt a thing, nobody called me names, nobody thought I was weird.   25 
AJ: So when you were bullied in school it wasnt about gender presentation or gender identity. 26 
AI: No, it was about being poor or being fat, which now I know I wasnt fat, but at the time I didnt 27 know.  I had a terrible eating . . . I went through a bunch of eating disorders when I was . . . I was 28 anorexic in my teenage years and then I got found out because my menstruation stopped and 29 eventually my parents noticed that I was living on 500 calories a day.  But I was very active, I was 30 a dancer and I was very physically active and I really liked my body being smaller.  Looking back 31 there is a lot of things that make sense.  I was large chested and I hated it.  I hated being large 32 chested, I hated attention to my body  like being groped on the bus, which was not at all an 33 unusual occurrence in Italy. 34 
AJ: Really? 1 
AI: In Italy in the 1980s, at least once a week youd get some adult, full-grown adult man, groping 2 on the bus. 3 
AJ: Of little girls, young girls? 4 
AI: Yeah, teenagers. 5 
AJ: Teenagers? 6 
AI: Yes, teenagers, and I was also very vocal about that was not OK.  I would shame people.  I would 7 be like, Did you just touch my butt? really loudly.  I was . . . well, here I would probably be 8 called white trash.  I was really loud on the bus and hung out with all the really loud girls and 9 boys.  We all, it was like Lord of the Flies, we would all play . . . it was a big set of high-rise 10 buildings and we would all play together, because all our parents worked long hours.  And so 11 gender wasnt a big deal it didnt feel like, until I was in high school and then mostly it was really 12 confusing.  I went down the, Girls can do anything, and so this is just my way of being a girl  13 more . . . and I wasnt butch enough, that was really masculine.  I liked music, I liked pretty 14 things, and I liked looking good. 15 
AJ: And you liked making Barbie clothes. 16 
AI: Exactly, I liked making Barbie clothes and going to concerts, like classical music concerts.  And so 17 it was this weird . . . I had a very queer masculinity that I couldnt make sense of until I met one 18 of my close friends, Ilario, who was gay, I found out  he came out to me when I was . . . I think I 19 was 18 and he was 16 and that was the first gay person.   20 
AJ: Ilario.  I-l-. . .  21 
AI: I-l-a-r-i-o. 22 
AJ: OK, just like it sounds. 23 
AI: Yeah, just like it sounds.  And he came out to me and I was like, Whatever, who cares?  But I 24 never put two and two together, so men can be gay but I never thought that that applied to me.  25 So I just kind of went through my life, kind of bumbling through honestly.  I would say things, 26 like when I found out about drag I would say things like, Im pretending to be a girl, Im in 27 drag.  And people would laugh and go, Oh, that makes no sense because you are a girl.  I was 28 like, I guess, but I feel like Im playing at being a girl, it doesnt feel natural to me.  I would try 29 to talk about it but nobody had any language or made any sense of it.  So my family never made 30 a big deal of any of my behaviors or that I wanted to wear pants instead of skirts, preferably.  I 31 would begrudgingly wear dresses for formal occasions but I was always in trousers.  But I think 32 we were close enough to kind of the feminist revolution that nobody wanted to make a big deal 33 in a progressive family.  My grandma thought it was a big deal, on my moms side, but 34 everybody else . . . and it was Rome, it wasnt a small village. 35 
AJ: Yeah, big city. 36 
AI: Exactly, it was a big city.  So I got away, I think, with a lot of things  like I got away with being 1 myself without anybody questioning it and I didnt like my body but I got around . . . I really liked 2 moving, so I did a lot of dancing and swimming.  We had gym in school and I got into gymnastics 3 and so I think I tried to make peace with my body through what my body could do and always 4 emphasizing what my body could do.  I was a cross-country runner and so I really liked my body 5 and I would pound my body.  And then it wasnt until I was in my early 20s that I realized that 6 something was going on and it was about sexuality at first, it still wasnt about gender.  I knew . . 7 . like I would say those things like, Im playing at being a girl, Im really good at kind of 8 pretending to be a girl.  But it didnt make sense to anybody, not even me.  And then the first 9 time I saw two women kissing in London, I moved to London when I was 22 with a scholarship 10 and then . . .  11 
AJ: To study, you went there to study? 12 
AI: I went for four months and then I saw some opportunity and never went home.  There was a lot 13 of trauma and domestic violence in my house growing up so the first opportunity I saw I got out, 14 and that was my first opportunity.  And so the first time I saw two women kissing in London, I 15 was like, Ohhh.  I swear they must have thought I was some weird, bigoted homophobe 16 because I just literally stared at them like this  and something clicked and I went, I think Im 17 bisexual.  And then I was starting to get into womens studies more, thinking about . . . I had a 18 lecture at the university where I was working, they pushed me to do a studentship to get a Ph.D. 19 in feminist studies, so I started to really get into womens studies.  I understood about 20 lesbianism and bisexuality and I really wanted to come out but I was so afraid  I was afraid that 21 I would lose everybody.  I first came out as bi to my fianc at the time, who threatened to tell 22 my whole family and said that I would lose everybody. 23 
AJ: Oh boy. 24 
AI: And so I married him, which was a really terrible idea and then he turned out to be violent, so 25 our marriage only lasted one year and then I got a divorce very quickly on the grounds of 26 domestic violence and came out, all at the same time, in my early 20s.  So I got married, got 27 divorced, and came out.   28 
AJ: You came out as . . .? 29 
AI: Bisexual.   30 
AJ: Bisexual. 31 
AI: For like five minutes because when I came out as bisexual . . . well first there was a lot of denials.  32 So I told my best friend in Italy, who was called Iladia  which I think is really hilarious that my 33 first gay friend was Ilario and my best friend from college, were still friends, Iladia.  I told her 34 and she was like, No, I think youre just getting cold feet.  Have you ever even kissed a girl?  I 35 was like, No.  She was like, Youre fine.  I tried to tell my priest and he was like, Well, if 36 youre bisexual you can make a choice and so dont choose the back-up scene.  That kind of 37 stuff, so all that bullshit.  So I really tried to stick it through, but it was actually a Catholic priest 38 in England, in Reading where I lived . . . 39 
AJ: You lived in Reading? 1 
AI: In Reading, England at this point.  So, I was in this violent marriage, I knew I was queer of some 2 sort, and I was in deep crisis of faith, and I was talking to Father James.  Father James looks at 3 me and goes, You just need to get out of your violent marriage, come out, and find a religion 4 that is more accepting because I dont think the Catholic Church is going to come around for a 5 long time.  And I was deeply religious. 6 
AJ: Wow, your priest said this? 7 
AI: Oh yeah.  I wanted to be a nun, I was deeply religious  religion had saved my life and given me 8 this outlet to feel safe and process my trauma and have a safe, loving place.  For it was really 9 hard for me.  So Father James was like, You need to live your authentic life, thats what God 10 wants from you.  And so this was me at . . . I dont know, how old was I at this point?  I was 24. 11 
AJ: Your priest told you to live your authentic life? 12 
AI: So this priest, Father James, is like, You need to live your authentic life.  So I left my violent 13 husband, which was . . . thats a whole story by itself, came out  which was really hard because 14 a lot of people starting making conjectures that of course he hit me because I was queer.  So 15 that was really awful.   16 
AJ: So sort of blaming the victim sort of thing. 17 
AI: Blaming me, so that was really crappy  but I knew, because I had experienced domestic 18 violence as a child and I just snapped and I was like, If I dont put a stop to this now, I will 19 become my mother and my children and my childrens children . . .  Like I could see the inter-20 generational trauma. 21 
AJ: So you broke the cycle? 22 
AI: So I wanted to break the cycle so I was like, Im not going to take this in, Im not going to be 23 blamed for this.  I came out, I shaved my hair  I came out in a big way.  I shaved my head, I was 24 super out.  I was out as bisexual but then . . . Reading is a fairly provincial town, so its not a 25 small town.  Its like a university town and its middle-size.  Its fairly small and there are like two 26 gay bars. 27 
AJ: Like St. Paul maybe? 28 
AI: Kind of like St. Paul, yes.  There are two gay bars in the whole town, right?  And I realized there 29 was a lot of bi-phobia and I was never going to get laid if I was out as bisexual. 30 
AJ: Oh wow. 31 
AI: And I was never going to get accepted. 32 
AJ: OK.   33 
AI: And I was already seen as suspicious because I was foreign.  Women would already be like, 34 Well, youre Italian, you cant be trusted.  Italian people are hot-blooded and theyll betray 35 you.  36 
AJ: Oh, all of these stereotypes. 1 
AI: A lot of xenophobia, a lot of xenophobia in England.  So I was like, Most of the guys I like are 2 gay, so theyre not going to go for me so I might as well say Im a lesbian.  So thats what I did 3 for a few years.  So I lived as an out lesbian for about . . . almost four years.  I was very 4 embedded in the community.  I came out to parents who stopped talking . . . well, I stopped 5 talking to them for a year.  I came out to my parents and my mom said, I do not fucking love 6 you now.  7 
AJ: Oh boy. 8 
AI: And my dad just denied it.  He was like, You dont have the right hormonal imbalance to be a 9 lesbian.  I was like, What does that even mean?  He was like, Youre feminine.  I was like, 10 Whatever.  So I said, Fine, Im just not going to talk to you and Im not going to come home.  11 I didnt go home for a year. 12 
AJ: Really? 13 
AI: And I stuck with it. My mom called and . . .  14 
AJ: So this was your choice? 15 
AI: Oh yeah.  My mom would call and cry and I was like, Nope, this is who I am.  I am not going 16 back.  Either you accept me for who I am or you dont have a relationship with me.  I was doing 17 my Ph.D. in womens studies and I was like, This is me and if I have to lose my family I will lose 18 my family, which was a big deal.  I didnt go home for Christmas, which was like a tragedy for 19 everybody.  So, they did  they accepted me.  And then I . . . Im getting to the gender piece 20 slowly but surely. 21 
AJ: Did you have a relationship with a woman? 22 
AI: I did, I had several.  I was like, Time to party.  And finally I got to explore my sexuality, I also 23 found out about kinky sexualities and I was like, Oh, theres a whole world of how I can be out 24 there.  So there was a lot of exploring while I was doing my Ph.D. and then I got my Ph.D. and 25 theres a lot of stuff thats going on there.  But I met Michael, who Im still with, and I started 26 dating him, which was a big deal because I lost all my lesbian community  minus two people.  27 Literally I had two lesbian friends left out of . . . I was very embedded in community.  I was on 28 the board of the local LGBTQ youth group, I was doing fund raising, I was out everywhere at the 29 university, with my family.  And not a lot of people were out yet at that time, especially in a kind 30 of smaller town.  And definitely not a lot of foreigners. 31 
AJ: So you were like the big person on . . .  32 
AI: So I was out and then I started dating this dude.  So that was really traumatic, but luckily . . .  33 
AJ: Is your partner from Reading? 34 
AI: He used to live there, yes.  Michael and I were both working at the same university when we 35 met.  And so, I had some gay male friends who were fine  they were like, Whatever.  So I 36 started dating Mike and he took me to the first BiCon, which is this big bisexual convention in 1 the UK.   2 
AJ: Right, Ive heard of BiCon. 3 
AI: I love BiCon.  So I went to my first BiCon.  He was like, Im not saying youre a bisexual or 4 anything, because I was going through the whole, Im a dyke, dude.  I wasnt a lesbian  I was 5 a dyke.   6 
AJ: A dyke, OK. 7 
AI: That was a thing. 8 
AJ: That was a thing. 9 
AI: It was a thing  I wasnt a lesbian. 10 
AJ: Theres a difference, right?   11 
AI: I was committed.  I was like, Im a dyke, dating a dude, it happens.  Ive read Carol Quinn and . 12 . . we went to BiCon and I went, Ohhh, I have just . . . in the same way in which Id been trying 13 to be a girl all these years, Ive also been trying to be queer in a way thats accepted.  I just get to 14 be me.  And so here I am, Im 28 and finally figuring out . . . yeah, 28 or 29, it was that year.  I 15 just got to be whoever I want and that blew my mind.  This was also the first time that I met out 16 trans people who were visibly gender non-conforming.  So Jenny, who is a very out prominent . . 17 . she runs . . . she edits Bi Community News, BCN, and shes a trans feminine, gender non-18 conforming bi organizer in Manchester.  And she was organizing that . . .  19 
AJ: Where does Jenny live? 20 
AI: She lives in Manchester, UK.  And so it was Jenny and then there were all these other trans and 21 gender non-conforming folks at BiCon.  So yeah, I met all these trans and gender non-22 conforming people and it was the first time that I saw female assigned at birth, gender fluid, and 23 trans masculine people. I had never come across that.  And so at first I was like, Oh, gender 24 fluid, this makes a lot of sense  I think thats who I am.  But everybody was very light in their 25 body, they didnt have big chests  they were very tiny.   I was not tiny.   26 
AJ: Sure. 27 
AI: I was like, Oh, you have to be really androgynous to be gender fluid.  Right?  We have such 28 messed up . . .  29 
AJ: I know, where do these ideas come from. 30 
AI: But I think thats who I am inside.  And then eventually it clicked and so I started identifying as 31 gender queer slowly and then when I was . . . so I had Melissa when I was 32, so I became very 32 involved in bi community.  I was out to myself as gender fluid and to Michael, but not to a lot of 33 people.  I was trying to make sense of my gender, I was in this very gender bending bi 34 community, and I started to read more trans authors  like I found Pat Califias writing, Del 35 LaGrace Volcano was really popular at the time, so I started to get a sense . . . there was a little 36 bit more internet so I could research on the internet.  37 
AJ: Sure. 1 
AI: So I started to become more aware of trans community. 2 
AJ: So this was mid-1990s, maybe? 3 
AI: This was late 1990s, early 2000s.  And so, by the time I was 30, which would be 14 years ago, 4 almost 15, I was out as gender queer and then I had Melissa when I was 32.  I was identifying as 5 gender queer and gender fluid.  And then after I had Melissa and I was done breastfeeding, I felt 6 like my body had done its job and I was ready.  So when she was a toddler probably, I started 7 binding and wearing more masculine clothes professionally.  I was still walking this line where I 8 was like, Do I really get to wear masculine clothes or mens clothes?  So I actually started 9 wearing mens clothes in my early 30s. 10 
AJ: Were you still living in England then? 11 
AI: Yes, and I started binding when I was around 34 or 35.  We moved here in 2008, so I would have 12 been 37 then.  And this was the first place where I had meaningful trans community.  So I got 13 involved with trans community straight away.  I was already presenting as masculine, but it was 14 the first place where people would explicitly say, What are your pronouns?  Id be like, Oh, 15 whatever  maybe he/him, I dont know.  And people started using my pronouns and it felt 16 really good.   17 
AJ: Wow. 18 
AI: And I was out to my mom as gender queer but she didnt really understand what that meant.  So 19 I was actively binding, presenting masculine full-time and then binding was getting really hard 20 and I had good health insurance through the University of Minnesota and could afford to have 21 top surgery.  I had top surgery in 2010, which was covered by my insurance, and for my mom, 22 that was when she really realized I was trans.  I had talked about being gender queer for years, 23 since I was like 30 or 31, even before I had Melissa.  So we talked about it and I was almost 40, it 24 was three months before turning 40, my top surgery.  And it took her almost 10 years to figure . 25 . . it wasnt until I went to do something medically focused, and Id gone by Alex since I was 14-26 years-old, by the way.  I saw Flashdance when I was 14-years-old and the main character is 27 named Alex and shes very gender non-conforming in some ways.  She had sexual agency, she 28 wears this tuxedo thing at one point, and she is a metal-welding dancer.  She was the most . . . 29 the person was closest to what I perceived my mixed identity to be  like not fully masculine, 30 not fully feminine. And so I went by Alex since I was 14-years-old and my mom knew that, 31 because she used it all the time.  But it wasnt until I went to do something medical that it really 32 clicked for a lot of people.  It clicked for my mom, it clicked for my employer even though Id 33 always presented as masculine  actually that clicked a little earlier because people were using 34 different pronouns, depending on whether they asked me or not.   35 
AJ: If they asked they knew, if they didnt ask then you were still . . .  36 
AI: Yeah, I wasnt telling them and my position was like, Well, this is how Im presenting.  If 37 somebody isnt asking, why is it on me to tell them?  Cis people dont have to go around 38 announcing their gender. 39 
AJ: Announcing their gender, pronouns. 1 
AI: Why do I have to announce my identity? 2 
AJ: It makes perfect sense.   3 
AI: So it really wasnt until my late 30s, early . . . the most recent eight years that I was more visible 4 as trans for a lot of people.  5 
AJ: OK. 6 
AI: Even though I would say Ive identified . . . and I didnt really . . . a lot of folks didnt see gender 7 queer or non-binary identities under the trans umbrella necessarily when I first started coming 8 out.  But if I count from when I was out as gender queer, probably about 15 years almost that 9 Ive been out as trans.   10 
AJ: Its very clear . . . GNC is very clearly under the trans umbrella now. 11 
AI: Yeah, and in terms of presenting gender non-conforming, I would say thats my whole life in 12 some ways.  I have so many photos from when Im little, you look at it and youre like, Thats a 13 little boy, right?  And even when Im . . . there are those photos that Mike sometimes loves to 14 look at and go, Even when youre trying to be a girl, its so clear that youre not.  My dad 15 would tease me, I would stride down the beach when we went to the seaside, and he would say, 16 You cant walk like that, thats a very masculine walk - and then your chest goes up and down 17 and thats not OK.  And I was like 14 or 15.  I was like, Well I dont fricking care, Im going to 18 walk down the beach the way I want to walk.  And so I think in terms of being gender non-19 conforming its been all my life, but I didnt have a label until this last 10 or 15 years. 20 
AJ: Do you think gender non-conforming identities will stay under the trans umbrella forever?  I just 21 had a conversation about this earlier today.  Whats your thoughts?  Do you think there will 22 come a time . . . because transgender really sort of . . . when you think about . . .  23 
AI: Its huge. 24 
AJ: Its huge, but it sort of stabilizes the binary, at least the way it is understood and presented now.  25 Its male to female or female to male, but gender non-conforming really blows that whole 26 notion of binary up.   27 
AI: It does. 28 
AJ: So whats your thoughts? 29 
AI: Its fascinating.  I just had to put all my thoughts on paper because some of my colleagues in the 30 UK are writing a book about non-binary genders, and I had the light task to write the future 31 directions. 32 
AJ: Oh wow.   33 
AI: Do I have a crystal ball?  It was really hard to write this chapter. 34 
AJ: So I asked the right person. 35 
AI: So Ive been thinking about this very recently and I think that eventually non-binary identities, 1 they are challenging the dichotomy between trans and cis people because who gets to decide 2 where that line is between cis and trans?  Is it if you legally transition, medically, socially, like 3 who gets to define it and then there are the bigger issues that the gender binary itself . . . its 4 part of this colonizing, Christianizing, white supremacist thing because the more we really look 5 at evidence from anthropology, there have always been a variety of genders in lots of different 6 cultures and places.  So I think that eventually, my hope is that we might move to where its this 7 world where it is understood that, of course, gender is more than a spectrum, its a landscape, 8 and people can make multiple choices, including body modification, and I dont really think that 9 we can even imagine that because we are so immersed in binary cis genderist thinking that its 10 even hard to imagine.  Sometimes I think its even scarier because Im like well its very different 11 to experience the world as a trans person than as a cis person.  I know, I experience it every day 12  going to the bathroom can be really intimidating and going around with my kid I get looked at 13 in a certain way.  Im very aware of our cis genderist system and, at the same time, wow if we 14 really go with the non-binary genderist idea it blows the whole thing apart, it deconstructs the 15 whole idea of gender.  A lot of the work that DarkMatter, the poetry duo, are doing around 16 unmasking all the trans misogyny but the intersection also with like racism and colonization and 17 all those kind of ideas. 18 
AJ: And theyre called DarkMatter? 19 
AI: DarkMatter, its a poetry duo and theyre trans feminine, I believe, folks  I think.  I dont even 20 think we can imagine it, but I dont think the trans cis dichotomy will last if we truly find a way of 21 giving full citizenship and understanding to non-binary genders.  Like I dream of a world where a 22 child is born and, of course, were not going to know their gender until they tell us. So we just 23 use gender neutral pronouns and then when theyre four or five, theyll tell us because thats 24 when children tell you who they are.  Right?  What would that be like? And then were like, Oh, 25 now I know who you are.  And maybe that will change and thats OK. 26 
AJ: Boy, I gave a very similar answer to this question so . . . wow, its pretty nice to know that Im in 27 smart company like you, Alex. 28 
AI: Or Im in smart company like you, Andrea, because youre pretty smart and amazing.   29 
AJ: Thats awesome.  Youve talked a little bit about this but what one person or one event or one 30 thing, and you talked about BiCon and the situation where you saw the two lesbian-identified 31 women in London kissing, but was there one thing that sort of really clicked this trans GNC 32 identity that made it take hold for you? 33 
AI: Yes, something where I committed and I was like, No, this is really who I am. 34 
AJ: Yes. 35 
AI: I think it was the decision to have top surgery.  I remember, Id been binding and binding and it 36 was awful.  Im asthmatic and I have fibromyalgia and binding was terrible for me, physically 37 painful.   38 
AJ: Yeah, and it is pretty painful most people. 39 
AI: Oh anybody, but then I had heightened levels of pain. 1 
AJ: Right, and the difficulty breathing.  It exacerbates all of that. 2 
AI: There were days when I couldnt put my binder on by myself or take it off by myself.  Michael 3 was super supportive and really there . . . I used to get really horrible skin rashes.  I remember 4 this moment . . . and I was looking for a surgeon and I went to a couple consults and I got 5 discriminated by one surgeon who was like, Oh, yeah, well do the operation this way and this 6 way, but I dont operate on transgender people.  I was like, What does that even mean?  7 Anyway, I was going through this process and I remember that, even before that process, there 8 was this moment where, OK, I cannot keep binding for the rest of my life, this is not healthy for 9 my body  my body is definitely giving me a very clear message that this is not OK.  So either I 10 go back to non-binding and whenever I did I would get mis-gendered, like all the time.  There 11 was just no way.  I still get mis-gendered but it doesnt feel as intense and at least I felt better in 12 my body.  Or, I have health insurance, I could get top surgery . . . it was really I got approved 13 straight away.  Ive always seen a therapist since training to be a therapist because I think its 14 healthy, so my therapist was like, Yeah, whatever, Ill write you a letter. 15 
AJ: So what do you do?  Tell us what you do? 16 
AI: Oh thats right.  Im a therapist.  So I think that was the moment where I was like - this is it.  17 Either I keep going around my whole life saying Im a non-binary gender fluid person and 18 nobody really sees it but me  or some people would see it, and that would be OK.  I couldnt 19 bear it.  I couldnt bear it  the thought of going around and not binding, it literally broke my 20 heart.  It was like I cant do this.  I dont know . . . at that point I didnt know what was going to 21 happen with the permanent residency or anything so I was like . . . and I knew that in England I 22 would not be able to get top surgery as a non-binary person. 23 
AJ: Oh wow. 24 
AI: Its changing, but at the time. 25 
AJ: So youd have to be on this binary . . .  26 
AI: Or you have to pretend to be on the binary at least.  And so I did, I had top surgery and it was 27 the best decision Ive ever made.  I remember looking at my body and going, Oh, this is how my 28 body . . .  Even moving in my body  like dancing and swimming, Im going, This is how my 29 body was always supposed to feel.  It was just like being home.  So for me thats probably the 30 most defining moment.  But I think I knew the moment I met Jenny, at that first BiCon, and I 31 looked . . . and shes a very gender non-conforming trans feminine person, very openly and 32 shamelessly so.  I looked at her and I went, This is who I am.  It doesnt make complete sense to 33 me yet, but this is who I am.  Not one thing or another, but this makes sense to me  of course, 34 you get to be who you are, this is what it means to be authentic.   35 
AJ: Sweet.  Youre in a relationship? 36 
AI: Yes. 37 
AJ: How long have you been with Michael? 38 
AI: Ive been with Michael . . . it will be 16 years next March, so 15 years and some. 1 
AJ: So you identified as bi, you identified as lesbian for a little while, now youre just gender non-2 conforming. 3 
AI: I still identify as bi. 4 
AJ: Bisexual. 5 
AI: Yes, I feel like I have a lot of loyalty to the bi community and I feel like bi community organizing 6 has always been really close to trans organizing because its this not being in a box.  And so I feel 7 really close to bi-plus communities. 8 
AJ: Bi-plus communities. 9 
AI: Now we use bi-plus to include pan and fluid. 10 
AJ: Sure. 11 
AI: But I really like . . . the bi community links me to ancestors and all those organizers that have 12 openly worked for a less binary world, like a non-monosexual world and theres always been 13 much more . . . not always, but often, more embracing of trans folks in a lot of bi communities.  14 Not always, but often, in my experience.  So I still identify as bi. 15 
AJ: Its interesting that you mentioned that you found that trans people tend to find acceptance in 16 bi communities, what do you think the relationship between the L, the G, and the B is to the T?   17 
AI: Yeah. 18 
AJ: Is there a relationship? 19 
AI: Its complicated, right? 20 
AJ: Should there be a relationship? 21 
AI: I dont know.  I feel like it makes sense for me . . . how do I feel?  I feel the whole LGBT thing, its 22 really about normativity because when . . . in the lesbian restaurant with the buzzing at the door 23 in Italy, nobody cared if you were lesbian or bisexual or whatever, because you were basically . . 24 . once you are in some sort of way, you dont fit in the norm, youre a part of us.  So a lot of 25 organizing, like Stonewall  I dont think Sylvia Rivera, Marsha P. Johnson and the other . . . like 26 the first women who organized Pride, I always forget the name . . . Linda somebody, I think.  27 They didnt sit around talking identity politics, they were all marginalized and they organized 28 together.  Like in most communities that Ive known and come from historically, you organize 29 together because honestly most people looked at us and said, Youre freaks.  They didnt say, 30 Youre lesbian, or, Youre gay, or Bisexual or Transgender.  Theyre like, Youre some 31 weird pervert pricks over there. 32 
AJ: Exactly  and stay over there and go away. 33 
AI: And stay over there and dont come near us.   34 
AJ: Yes. 35 
AI: And I think us people have gained respectability and citizenship, then theres been a, Lets 1 claim identities that are separate from each other, and then theres been this marginalizing of 2 trans folks who honestly have always been some of the most visible.  I think that goes for any 3 gender non-conforming folks.  The butches and the feminine man and the trans folks, those 4 were the people who couldnt hide it. 5 
AJ: And those are the people who get discriminated and violence and . . .  6 
AI: Targeted. 7 
AJ: And targeted, lose their jobs and cant get an apartment. 8 
AI: Exactly.  And who cares if youre a trans woman or a super femme gay man or a bi person or 9 butch?  What people are looking at is you dont fit in, usually because of some gender markers 10 and sometimes because of relationships, and now we want to do all this clean, 11 compartmentalized organizing which is great but it doesnt make sense to me because cis 12 genderism impacts anybody who is gender non-conforming.  Transphobia and trans misogyny 13 are their own thing, but anybody who doesnt fit in feels the impact of cis genderism.  14 
AJ: Sure. 15 
AI: Anybody who doesnt fit in feels the impact of queer phobia.  Like when we make fun of the boy 16 who wants to play ballet and is sensitive, it doesnt matter what that boys sexual orientation is 17 going to be, were really policing gender.   18 
AJ: Yes. 19 
AI: I just wish we could . . . like if we figured it out, then all of this division is nonsensical and all of 20 this policing of borders is nonsensical and really what it has been about is its a political agenda.  21 Lets get the people who are more acceptable, like the mostly white, gender conforming, 22 respectable, middle-class, gay and lesbian citizens, their rights, and then everybody else will 23 come along, right?  Even in marriage equality . . .  24 
AJ: Thats the model. 25 
AI: They called it gay marriage  its not gay marriage, theres plenty of bi and trans people of mixed 26 orientation marriages.   27 
AJ: Exactly.   28 
AI: So trans people have a sexual orientation and some very binary trans straight folks, dont feel a 29 part of the LGBT community.  Why would they?  Theyre like, I feel like Im a man or a woman 30 and Im straight, what have I got to do with LGBT folks?  I get it.  Yeah, right, you dont have a 31 lot to do with it.  Youre basically a straight man or a straight woman.  And thats OK. I think 32 that we need to create a world where thats OK.  I also dont think theres a lot of feelings about 33 people disappearing from the community and Im like, Thats OK.  Some people just want to 34 live their lives and its not like you have to take this mantle of activism.  And its true, that some 35 folks dont have an option because of the visibility.  But visibility is so contextual.  Ive gone from 36 being a very visible lesbian to passing as straight in the early years of my marriage with Michael.  37 I was out, but unless people asked me there was a lot of assumed heterosexuality, to being very 38 visibly, I would say, trans.  Most people know that theres something going on with my gender 1 just looking at me and they just dont know what to do with my family.  And then depending on 2 who I am with, people are making decisions about my gender and sexual orientation.  So with 3 the Twin Cities being progressive, if Im with female friends, people will just assume were a 4 lesbian couple.  If Im with a bunch of gay boys, I might kind of pass a little more sometimes  5 but not always, especially more conservative areas, because it doesnt cross their mind, the 6 possibility of trans guys.  So its all over the map. 7 
AJ: Thats interesting. 8 
AI: Right, visibility management  what is that?  I dont even know how to handle it sometimes.   9 
AJ: Caitlyn Jenner. 10 
AI: Haha  Caitlyn Jenner, just ad lib anything? 11 
AJ: Ad lib anything. 12 
AI: Well, Caitlyn Jenner is a celebrity and shes doing what celebrities do, which is . . . I mean, shes 13 raising awareness, which I think is great.  Shes getting attention because she already had 14 attention as somebody who was famous. 15 
AJ: She was an Olympic gold medalist. 16 
AI: She was an Olympic gold medalist, she belongs to a family thats very much in the spotlight.  I 17 dont even understand about the Kardashians but I understand that shes part of that family. 18 
AJ: Right, yes. 19 
AI: I wasnt even aware of the Kardashians until Caitlyn Jenner. 20 
AJ: Really?  OK.   21 
AI: I live in a bubble.  Im like, What is happening?  Who are these people? 22 
AJ: Wheres the television because I dont see any televisions around here? 23 
AI: Right, exactly.  We stream all of our programs, theres a TV downstairs in the basement.  Yeah, I 24 think shes a very privileged, also very in the spotlight so she didnt get the option of 25 transitioning quietly.  I think shes done the best she could to educate folks.  I dont know, I think 26 its a big world and we need all of us.  I know that some people . . . I think its very 27 understandable that people have big feelings about Caitlyn Jenner getting that much press when 28 theres other amazing people . . . I mean, Laverne Cox is doing an amazing job of . . . I mean, she 29 was on the cover of Time.  I bought three copies of that Time magazine.  Shes amazing. 30 
AJ: She is amazing. 31 
AI: And she deserves 500 times the amount of press that Caitlyn Jenner got.  Im also aware that we 32 live in a . . . the U.S. is an incredibly racist society and so the access that Caitlyn is going to have 33 is not going to be the same access that Laverne Cox is going to have.   34 
AJ: And even Laverne has her level of privilege and stardom and celebrity as well. 35 
AI: Absolutely, compared to people like you have been doing trans activism for a long time. 1 
AJ: For a very long time. 2 
AI: And other folks that have been doing trans activism. 3 
AJ: Over 20 years! 4 
AI: Like Cecilia Chung, the world is full of amazing trans women of color, the U.S. is full of amazing 5 trans women of color who have been doing activism.  Marsha P. Johnson and Sylvia Rivera, look 6 at all their activism around Stonewall.   7 
AJ: Sure.   8 
AI: So, of course, I get irritated that like Caitlyn Jenner didnt invent transgender.  It feels like, Oh, 9 Caitlyn Jenner has come out and now people are aware that there are trans people in the 10 world. 11 
AJ: I agree, yeah. 12 
AI: Its like, Were you asleep?  At the same time, Im like well were getting visibility and that is 13 good to some degree but it also . . . I think visibility is a double-edged sword because every time 14 there is visibility there is also more visibility of the backlash, of the hate, there is increased 15 danger, I think, for the more vulnerable trans people on the street which tends to be trans 16 feminine people of color and more visible gender non-conforming folks.   17 
AJ: The murder rates have been off the charts since Caitlyn has come out.  Twenty-plus trans 18 women have been murdered so far in 2015.   19 
AI: People are scared and people are lashing out to the most vulnerable folks and that scares me. 20 So when people are like, Isnt it great that transgender people are getting all this visibility?  Im 21 like, I dont know, I think sometimes it was a little safer to be under the radar for a lot of people 22 and now people are looking out for it.  They know that transgender people exist and in some 23 ways that makes the community more vulnerable, and especially trans feminine people of color.  24 Yeah, thats scary. 25 
AJ: Thats a great observation.  This has been fascinating discussion, Alex.  What else do you think 26 people should know about Alex Iantaffi or the transgender non-conforming world that you 27 inhabit?   28 
AI: I dont know.  I guess we didnt talk about my work at all, what I do in the world. 29 
AJ: Yeah, tell me a little bit about your work. 30 
AI: Well, Im a therapist and Ive been a therapist . . . Ive been a licensed therapist for almost 10 31 years, it will be 10 years next summer.   32 
AJ: Wow, and you have a Ph.D. 33 
AI: Yes, and Ive had a Ph.D. for longer.  Actually, I got my Ph.D. in 1999 because it wasnt . . . I 34 trained as a clinician after I was a researcher already.  I think its really interesting to be out as a 35 non-binary trans academic in a lot of different ways, and especially not being in transgender 1 studies as a field.   2 
AJ: Yeah, because thats where a lot of people end up, right?  Or womens studies. 3 
AI: Yeah, which kind of makes sense.  I started from womens studies but then more and more I 4 kind of moved more towards sexual health and health.  Ive done some . . . I did end up doing 5 some work on trans issues because I feel there is just so much need of trans perspective and I 6 also feel its complicated to kind of be pigeon-holed and pushed to . . . there is this assumption 7 that people make that because Im trans, of course all my work is going to be focused on trans 8 issues.  Actually a lot of my work has been in deaf education and disability and gender and Im a 9 family therapist. 10 
AJ: When you say deaf education . . .  11 
AI: Deaf as in d-e-a-f.   12 
AJ: OK. 13 
AI: Hearing.  Ive been a signer for over 20 years.  I learned . . .  14 
AJ: Oh, I didnt know that.  You speak ASL? 15 
AI: I do, not as fluent in ASL because my first sign language was Italian sign language when I was 17.  16 And then I learned British sign language, in which Im very fluent.  Ive been a British sign 17 language user for . . . wow, over 20 years.  So actually Ive been signing for about 25 years all 18 together, something like that.  Longer?  Im getting old.  And then Ive been trying to learn ASL in 19 the last few years so Im not fluent but I can communicate in ASL and a little bit in LSQ, which is 20 the Quebecoise language. 21 
AJ: Which is it? 22 
AI: Quebecoise.  23 
AJ: Quebecoise? 24 
AI: Which is the Francophone deaf folks in Quebec speak sign LSQ, yeah they speak LSQ.   25 
AJ: OK, Ive got to . . . I have a transcriber who is going to want to know this word. 26 
AI: Shes like what are you talking about? 27 
AJ: Yes, and shes going to email me and say, Can you spell that? So please spell it for us. 28 
AI: Yeah, LSQ, which is, in French I will butcher some French now, the Langue des signes 29 Quebecoise, which is the Quebecoise from Quebec sign language. 30 
AJ: OK, shell figure it out. 31 
AI: Yeah, and Im fluent in British sign language, BSL, and Im getting fluent in ASL, which is 32 American sign language.   33 
AJ: She can look it up and find the word online.   34 
AI: Totally.  So its interesting to kind of have people want to pigeon-hole you in this tiny box, like, 1 Oh, youre trans so you do trans things.  And Im like, Ahhh, I was a scholar for several years 2 before coming out.  Its fascinating, its just fascinating how people always want to pigeon-hole 3 us.  And also whats been fascinating, I think, is just being the tokenizing  like, We want you to 4 be visible as a trans person, but we dont want you to change things.   5 
AJ: Right.   6 
AI: Because, you know, the system  you know, the c-i-s system as we call it in our house, its deep 7 in academia.  Its really deep, especially when you look at mental health, we look at mens and 8 womens mental health, mens and womens public health.  So traveling those differences has 9 been really challenging and sometimes I wonder, I think I made my own choices in terms of 10 career, which have included like changing countries and always going after things I was 11 passionate about rather than a career.  And part of that has also been coming from a working 12 class background.  I had no idea what an academic career looked like.  I see people . . . like 13 somebody who got their Ph.D. at the same time as me, has just made professor at the University 14 of Cambridge, and I was still a contract assistant professor.  Our CVs are not that different, 15 weve written pretty much the same amount.   16 
AJ: Do you think your gender identity has something to do with that? 17 
AI: I think its been a combination of my class and gender identity.  Partially its been because of my 18 class background, I had no idea how to navigate a professional world.  I didnt know about 19 mentorship, I didnt know how much my choices would impact things, I didnt have a sense of 20 entitlement in academia. 21 
AJ: Right, like I deserve to be a full tenure . . . right. 22 
AI: Exactly.  Im like, Oh, Im getting paid to do work I love, thats great.  Im getting paid.  Coming 23 from a working class background, youre like, Can I pay my bills?  Am I getting paid?  Hey, 24 Im getting paid to do work I love, thats a bonus.  So that was partially that, so I realized Ive 25 been doing a lot of work that was in support of other peoples careers rather than my own.  And 26 its taken me almost 20 years of academia to realize how much Ive done in service of other 27 peoples careers.  Its just been heartbreaking, but fascinating.  And partially I made choices to 28 go after jobs I really liked and I moved countries and I had Melissa, but partially I think it is the 29 gender identity piece. 30 
AJ: Sure.   31 
AI: Partially I think that . . . who are your peers?  If youre in a world that is supposed to be where 32 your peers, you have a peer group and there is a peer-review process, if youre trans or a person 33 of color, if youre working class, those are not your peers. 34 
AJ: Those are not your peers. 35 
AI: By and large.  So I know that my story is not unique.  I think anybody who doesnt come from 36 what academics are supposed to look like, which is mostly middle to upper middle class, like 37 white cis, predominantly not uniquely straight.  Theres a long tradition of white gay men in 38 academia. 39 
AJ: Sure. 1 
AI: But its harder, its just harder  it takes longer and the path doesnt seem to be as straight 2 forward.  Ive seen that with a lot of people and I think its that issue that, especially women of 3 color academics, have written about around epistemic injustice.  So this idea that who you are is 4 already seen as not a credible source of knowledge. 5 
AJ: Right. 6 
AI: And I think that that is particularly, Im just doing to say one more thing on this, which I think as 7 a therapist who works with trans people, I know Im always going to be seen as suspect by the 8 establishment because I have a vested interest, right, in inverting clients.   9 
AJ: Got it. 10 
AI: So youre always going to be seen an inherently biased, especially when you work with young 11 people.  Am I, just by my very presence, going to be an undue influence on a child.  But that is 12 based on an assumption that a cis identity if preferable to a trans identity, because nobody ever 13 says that the cis therapist is an undue influence on a child who is exploring their gender identity.  14 And sometimes that weighs on me but I think thats more than made up for by just the sheer joy 15 that a lot of trans folks have in being able to see a trans therapist.  Ill never forget the defining 16 moment why I knew it was important for me to be out as a therapist was this 12-year-old, when 17 I was still working at the Center for Sexual Health, the first time around  it was during my 18 second post-doc.  This 12-year-old trans masculine looks at me and goes, Are you really a 19 doctor like Dr. So-and-so and Dr. So-and-so? Who are also Ph.D.s, not M.D.s.  And I said, Yes, I 20 really am.  And just his face, it was this possibility and I was like this is why Im out.  People 21 need to know that you get to be . . . you get to have this, you get to have those opportunities, 22 you get to be a source of knowledge, you get to an expert, or you get to be in a position of 23 authority.  And, of course, it takes a ton of privilege and all of that to get here and its also 24 important, I think, for trans youth to know that there are many options.  Its like when people . . 25 . I know that when trans youth of color look at you, Andrea, they see a sea of possibility and I 26 know the reality is that you fought really hard for a lot of . . . for all your education and . . .  27 
AJ: For everything. 28 
AI: For everything  even for our fricking lives, right? 29 
AJ: For our lives, absolutely. 30 
AI: For everything. 31 
AJ: But it is a joy to see that look of possibility, right? 32 
AI: Exactly.  And, you know, there are times when Im like . . . I was never supposed to be alive for 33 so many reasons.  I have been suicidal or living with suicidality as I like to call it, since I was an 34 early teen.  I dont anymore.  I was talking to my therapist and I was like I realize that Im 35 overwhelmed and Im not suicidal and Im 44.  But, you know, Im a survivor of early childhood 36 abuse and trauma and already that kind of lowers the odds for survival, right? 37 
AJ: Yes. 38 
AI: And then this whole trying . . . I didnt even know who I was or I didnt have the language for 1 who I was  all those things.  And with hindsight Im like - oh, it makes sense that if the world 2 tells you that you shouldnt even be alive, how do you keep getting up every day and saying, I 3 am and I am alive and Im here and Im going to be me.  And so it just takes a lot, it takes a lot. 4 
AJ: Its called resilience, I think. 5 
AI: And I see young people do it every day.  The world is telling them youre not supposed to be this 6 and youre not . . . and the rates of murder of trans women in this country is telling trans women 7 of color youre not supposed to be alive and yet people get up every day and go to work and go 8 to school.   9 
AJ: And make it happen. 10 
AI: And I know Im not alone.  I think that for me, whether it was movies or books or people who 11 were going through crap that they werent supposed to survive and they survived, and the 12 possibility.  I think that finding science fiction at such an early age was the possibility that the 13 world didnt have to be what it was.  I love that possibility.  So, I didnt even know where I 14 started from there, but I guess thats why Im out as a trans person and I guess thats why I think 15 its important to be authentic, which also for me included deciding that really Im not . . . Im not 16 a trans man, I dont see myself as a man.  I see myself as a non-binary gender fluid person.  I feel 17 there is masculine and feminine in me and I use he/him pronouns because theyre easier for 18 people, and they make people think about my gender because a lot of people want to use she 19 for me because Im pretty effeminate, but I also use they/them pronouns increasingly as people 20 are becoming aware.  And when I was starting to take testosterone, my body was changing and 21 people were so excited about my increased masculinity and I thought, But thats as much of a 22 lie as when I was trying to be a girl.  If I try to be a man that is also a lie.  So, thats why I say 23 gender queer, gender fluid, trans masculine person because to live full-time as a man, 24 sometimes its really tempting because life would be easier, I think.  I mean, white dudes - that 25 would be easier.   26 
AJ: Theres a little bit of privilege there.   27 
AI: Just a tad.  Its tempting  and its not who I am and Im like . . . yeah.  I dont know  blah, blah, 28 lots of things. 29 
AJ: Thank you, Alex.  Thank you so much, this has been great. 30 
AI: I know, I feel like I havent even told you about immigration and how hard it is for trans people.  31 So talk to somebody else . . . talk to other people, trans people and immigration  it sucks. 32 
AJ: Ive had that discussion and its . . .  33 
AI: Because the only thing Ill say is even if you have a Ph.D. and youre white and educated, its still 34 hard and it still sucks. 35 
AJ: Wow. 36 
AI: But youve had much better people to talk about this issue.  37 
AJ: No, no, no. 1 
AI: Its just to remind people that you can . . . I have a ton of privilege and it still has been a struggle.  2 Youre so liable to come across transphobia and . . . yeah, its a fucked up system, our 3 immigration system here. 4 
AJ: It absolutely is but it seems like every issue that we have to come across in life, if youre trans 5 identified or a gender non-conforming identified person, those issues are exacerbated by your 6 gender identity. 7 
AI: Yeah, yeah - that is so true.  Thank you.  Thank you for letting me add that little piece. 8 
AJ: No, absolutely  thats wonderful.  Good-bye. 9 
AI: Good-bye. 10 
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