   
Jessi Brandon Narrator   Andrea Jenkins Interviewer 
    
The Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies University of Minnesota 
November 27, 2016 
 
 
   

 
  
The Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story, while providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source material about the transgender community.  The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for current and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public. 
The Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300 individuals over the next three years.  Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and experiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality.  This project will be led by Andrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist.  Andrea brings years of experience working in government, non-profits and LGBT organizations.  If you are interested in being involved in this exciting project, please contact Andrea. 
Andrea Jenkins jenki120@umn.edu (612) 625-4379 
   
 
Andrea Jenkins -AJ 1 
Jessi Brandon  -JB 2 
 3 
 4 
AJ: Hello. 5 
JB: Hello. 6 
AJ: My name is Andrea Jenkins and I am the oral historian for the Transgender Oral History Project 7 at the University of Minnesota.  Today is November 27, 2016, and Im on the campus at the 8 University of Minnesota in the Anderson Library, and Im talking with Jessi Brandon. 9 
JB: Yes. 10 
AJ: From Macalester College over in St. Paul.  How are you doing, Jessi? 11 
JB: Im doing pretty well.  Honestly, I feel a bit tired because I didnt realize it until when I was 12 talking with my friends today, but Ive been up since 7am. 13 
AJ: Oh wow, so youve been going at it today, huh?  Did you just fly back into town today?   14 
JB: Yes.  I flew back in at . . . I think it was about 9am, but my flight was at 7 and my mom just drove 15 me to the airport since we were four hours away and it doesnt really make any sense to like get 16 a hotel if were not going to stay there for a while, so we just made the drive over.  So it was a 17 pretty tiring night. 18 
AJ: Wow, a long day of travel.  You went home for Thanksgiving, I understand? 19 
JB: Yes, it was really nice. 20 
AJ: Did you have a good time? 21 
JB: Yes, it was really nice being able to see my mom and my step-family and especially seeing my 22 dog.  To see those people has been the highlight of my break and since I havent seen them 23 since August, it was a really special treat. 24 
AJ: What kind of dog? 25 
JB: Hes a Chihuahua Terrior mix.   26 
AJ: So a little tiny dog. 27 
JB: Very tiny.   28 
AJ: Oh wow.  Whats his name? 29 
JB: His name is Ricky.   30 
AJ: Ricky? 31 
JB: Yeah. 32 
AJ: Thats so cool.   1 
JB: We got him from the shelter, I think . . . wow, nine years ago.   2 
AJ: Where is home, Jessi? 3 
JB: Well, I guess the technical answer to that question is Enterprise, Alabama, and Ive been there 4 for the majority of my life, but really to me, home is in Germany. 5 
AJ: Really? 6 
JB: Yes.  I was born in Germany.  My parents were in the military so they were stationed there when 7 I was born.  I stayed there for the first four years of my life and I dont know . . . just being there, 8 spending part of my childhood there and then when we moved here to America, my mom would 9 tell me stories about her time in Germany and whenever I would get upset about not being 10 there, that love just kind of rubbed off on me and it started becoming a part of my identity, I 11 guess. 12 
AJ: Wow, thats cool.  But you went to Enterprise, Alabama for Thanksgiving? 13 
JB: Yes. 14 
AJ: And thats in the Deep South. 15 
JB: Pretty Deep South.   16 
AJ: And thats where you went to grade school and high school and all of that? 17 
JB: I actually went to high school in Mobile.  I spent sophomore through senior year in Mobile.  18 Theres a boarding school there called the Alabama School of Math and Science and thats 19 where I spent sophomore through senior year of high school. 20 
AJ: Oh wow.   21 
JB: So I lived . . .  22 
AJ: A boarding school you said? 23 
JB: Yes, a boarding school.   24 
AJ: OK, all right.  I wanted to make sure you didnt say a boys school.   25 
JB: No, no.  It was a boarding school, yes. 26 
AJ: Wow, so youre a boarding school baby.   27 
JB: Yes. 28 
AJ: All right, well thats pretty cool.  So youve talked about this already a little bit, but tell me what 29 is your earliest memory in life  the first thing you remember? 30 
JB: The first thing I remember is where we used to live in Germany there was this really big park, I 31 think this was in Stuttgart.   32 
AJ: Stuttgart? 1 
JB: Stuttgart, its a relatively big city in Germany. Just about every Saturday my mom and I would go 2 there and play on the playground or play at the water fountain and just spend some 3 mother/child together.  And sometimes the ice cream truck would come by during the summer 4 so my mom would buy me some ice cream there.  So thats like my earliest memory. 5 
AJ: Is that right?  That is fascinating. 6 
JB: Yeah, those were some great times. 7 
AJ: Do you have any brothers and sisters?   8 
JB: I have an older step-sister but we dont really have a relationship.  We acknowledge that were 9 siblings and we care about each other and we talk every now and then, but we dont have a 10 really close sibling relationship. 11 
AJ: OK.  Did you guys grow up together? 12 
JB: No, no.  She was step-sister through my dads remarriage a few years back.   13 
AJ: OK.  And you grew up with your mom? 14 
JB: Yeah, I mainly stayed with my mom and I would visit my dad.   15 
AJ: Cool.  So, you kind of grew up as an only child? 16 
JB: Basically, yeah.   17 
AJ: What was school like? 18 
JB: The first answer, I think, is that I just really loved school.  I loved learning new things and 19 reading.  I loved to read so much and I still do, I dont necessarily have the time for it anymore.  20 But, I did love reading, I loved learning new things.  In fact, my favorite thing to do when I was a 21 kid was if I learned something really cool in school or from a book I read, I would take that book 22 to the dinner table and I would actually quiz, actually do a trivia quiz with my mom about what I 23 learned.   24 
AJ: Oh wow. 25 
JB: Yeah, so I really loved learning.  Ive always noticed that I was a bit more ahead than all my other 26 classmates, like we had this test in elementary school called the DIBELS Reading Test where we 27 would test how fast we would read, like a reading comprehension, and I would always score 28 above average.  I was also . . . I guess Im just way more into the material overall.  I remember in 29 the 4th grade, just because I wanted to, I did my own summer project about learning about 30 Ancient Egypt.  I love Ancient Egypt and I actually made my own little booklet with facts and I 31 drew my own pictures and I gave it to my teacher because I wanted to. 32 
AJ: Oh wow.  So it wasnt an assignment? 33 
JB: No, I just really wanted to do it.   34 
AJ: Oh wow, so youre pretty artistic too, then, it sounds like?   1 
JB: I was artistic when I was little.  I actually used to draw my own comics called . . . they were 2 called, The Adventures of Evil Monkey.  I used to draw my own comics and I would show them 3 to my teacher.  She would love that, she wanted me to show them to the teachers but I was too 4 shy and I was like, No, I dont want anybody else to see this.  But, when I was younger I was 5 definitely creative but as I grew older, that creativity went from less to visual arts and more into 6 writing and music and singing. 7 
AJ: Youre a musician? 8 
JB: I try to be.  I used to do the piano but the way that I would learn piano is I would take a song I 9 really wanted to learn and I would learn to play the song by hearing the notes and seeing the 10 notes the person had on the screen.  So I didnt really learn in the traditional sense, but mostly 11 Im a singer and basically from the 4th grade until the 12th grade I was a part of choir.   12 
AJ: Oh wow, OK.  Are you still in choir now?   13 
JB: I auditioned to be in the choirs but I didnt make it, but there are auditions coming up for next 14 semester so Im going to try again. 15 
AJ: There you go, keep trying.  So, Im just going to double back a little bit and just ask you to state 16 your name, and spell it, and then tell me what your preferred pronouns are and your gender 17 identity as you claim it today, and your gender assigned at birth. 18 
JB: OK.  Well my name is Jessi, J-e-s-s-i.  My preferred pronouns are they, them, and theirs.  The 19 gender identity I describe myself as is non-binary, although I have had thoughts of maybe 20 identifying myself as a demiboy.  21 
AJ: Whats a demiboy?   22 
JB: A demiboy is where you feel partially like a boy but not really.  So, I did notice that Im way more 23 in touch with my masculinity and I do feel myself being more like a boy but then again Im not so 24 sure.  Its just a thought that came up, so for now I identify as non-binary.  I was assigned a 25 female at birth. 26 
AJ: All right.  How has that identity, those terms that you use to describe yourself, changed over 27 time?  And it seems like they are sort of shifting  how is that?   28 
JB: Well, when I was little I just always distinctly remember I hated girls clothes. 29 
AJ: Really?   30 
JB: Yeah, I hated dresses and skirts, I did not want . . . and glitter and clothes in the girls sections, I 31 did not want anything to do with that at all.  And so a regular outfit for me would be basketball 32 shorts or jeans, baggy t-shirts, sneakers, a backwards cap.   33 
AJ: Really? 34 
JB: Yeah, I just always, always preferred boys clothes and mens style and thats something that is 35 still a part of me today.  Its actually funny, because now that I think about it when I was 36 younger there were days where I would say out loud, like especially when I started having my 1 period, I was like, Oh, I wish I was a boy.  And then my mom was like, Oh yeah, I feel that.  2 But sometimes I actually wanted to be a boy, but I was too scared to say anything about it. 3 
AJ: Sure.  Why do you think you were afraid? 4 
JB: I just always had this concept of gender that as like if you had a certain body part you will always 5 be the gender that allows you that body part, no questions asked  that is gender, and that is 6 who you will be for the rest of your life.  And also, I barely heard the word transgender being 7 used but whenever I did it was always in a very negative connotation, especially in church.  And 8 so I didnt want to say anything because I didnt want my mom to be mad at me. 9 
AJ: Sure.   10 
JB: And its funny because when I was little, since I had this idea of gender and I would dress like a 11 boy a lot all the people were always . . . they would sometimes address me as, Sir, and I would 12 hate that, but now I love it. 13 
AJ: Really?  OK.  So thats been happening to you since you were a kid, huh? 14 
JB: Basically, yeah. 15 
AJ: Wow.   16 
JB: And so, I dont know  gender was concrete, but it wasnt until junior year of high school where I 17 discovered that I really did not like my chest and thats when I realized that binders were a thing 18 and so I was like, Oh, OK, Ill try this.  And I wore a binder and I remember just a huge . . . just 19 seeing how flat my chest was, I just remember having this huge sense of relief and something I 20 didnt think Id experience.  It was like, Oh, wow, my chest is flat, I can finally wear mens 21 clothes, mens shirts and not have my boobs sticking out.  This is such a great feeling.  But then 22 the more I wore my binder and the more I wore masculine clothes, the more I noticed how I 23 would feel a certain day.  Like if I felt feminine I wore more feminine clothes, if I felt masculine I 24 wore more masculine clothes or if I was androgynous, I would just go with the flow and vice 25 versa.  And one day I realized I felt very masculine but I decided to go out and wear feminine 26 clothes to school, just to see what would happen, and I just remember I could not go through 27 my first period of class without thinking about how uncomfortable I was and how horrible I felt.  28 This was when I was at the boarding school I was at, so as soon as I had a break  even though I 29 had a class in the next five minutes, I just rushed up to my dorm room and dressed up in 30 something I felt more like me that day and then I went to my next class. 31 
AJ: And then you felt better? 32 
JB: Yeah, then I automatically felt better  like instantly.   33 
AJ: Wow.   34 
JB: So gender and I have had a very interesting relationship. 35 
AJ: What pronouns do you use or do you prefer people to use? 36 
JB: I remember when I was first questioning I used both she and they, but now I feel like they/them 1 is something that feels more comfortable with me.  I thought about using he but I thought about 2 it and Im just like . . . maybe, they/them is the best option for me right now but then Im still 3 having these different thoughts.  Its a process, so well just see where it goes from there. 4 
AJ: Who do you date? 5 
JB: Im sorry, what? 6 
AJ: Who do you date?  Do you date guys?  Do you date girls?  Do you date gender-queer people?  7 Transgender people?  Are you a pansexual and you only date pans?  I dont know, who do you 8 date? 9 
JB: Well, I consider myself to be bisexual.  But, I notice my attractions and how I describe it seem to 10 be more pansexual, although bisexual seems more comfortable to me.  So to cover that I just 11 say Im pan-romantic bisexual so I can still kind of encompass my feelings for people but still 12 keep the bisexual label.  But, I cant really say who I date, because Ive only dated one person in 13 my entire life and he was a cis guy and I dated him before I came out even about my sexuality, 14 let alone my gender.  So, I dont know  I say bisexual, but maybe if I would choose a more 15 looser term I would say queer.   16 
AJ: Oh, thats more encompassing.   17 
JB: Yeah. 18 
AJ: So youre not in a relationship right now, or dating anyone?   19 
JB: No.   20 
AJ: OK.  Well, Im sure once you get used to life at Macalester things will change.  Youre a freshman 21 at Macalester, right? 22 
JB: Yes, thats true. 23 
AJ: What are you studying?   24 
JB: I havent declared them yet, but I want to double major in German Studies and International 25 Studies, and minor in Linguistics.   26 
AJ: Hmm.  Are you out at school? 27 
JB: Yes, I am.  This has actually been . . . this is the first place Ive been . . . the first school Ive been 28 to where absolutely no one knew . . . absolutely no one knows who I am or about my 29 background because I used to go to elementary school and even in high school there were 30 people that knew me from my hometown, at my boarding school.  So this is the first time that 31 Ive been in school where I can fully express myself as this queer, non-binary person and not 32 have anybody second guess that. 33 
AJ: Wow.  And what is that like?  How does that feel?   34 
JB: Its a really great feeling.  Its a really great feeling to not have to worry about if someone will 1 think of me differently or try to compare you to past you and things like that.  You can just be 2 yourself in this environment and barely anyone will question it  its a great feeling.   3 
AJ: Who is the first person . . . well, let me . . . before that.  When did you first feel like this gender 4 thing wasnt quite right?   5 
JB: I would say junior year, going into my senior year of high school and junior year was when I had 6 my binder for the first time and during that summer Id done more research into gender 7 identities and what it means to be transgender and even non-binary identities - gender-queer, 8 gender-fluid.  And so senior year, beginning of senior year, I talked to one of my good friends, 9 who is a lesbian, she was the very first person I talked to about my gender.   10 
AJ: OK. 11 
JB: I knew she was the right person because we talked about these issues a lot in the past, just 12 about queer issues in general, so I knew she would be understanding.  After I talked to her 13 about how I felt, she said, Well, since you feel like you would want to be referred to by 14 they/them do you want me to try it with you and then check out how you feel with that?  And I 15 said, Yeah, that would be great actually.  And she actually brought up the term gender-fluid to 16 me and said, Maybe this would be a good label for you.  And so for the first half of senior year 17 I identified as gender-fluid, but then it wasnt . . . but then it wasnt until the middle of senior 18 year, winter break, that I realized that that didnt really quite fit and I thought non-binary would 19 be a better term but I didnt want to be just non-binary and so I was actually going through the 20 Tumblr tag, the non-binary Tumblr tag, and there were people answering questions about 21 gender identity and one person said they were femme non-binary.  And I was like, Oh, if they 22 can be femme non-binary and Im more masculine, then I can say Im masculine non-binary.  23 And then a lightbulb stuck in my head and I was like, Thats it, thats it, I just figured it out.  So, 24 yeah. 25 
AJ: So masculine non-binary.   26 
JB: Yeah. 27 
AJ: Wow, thats pretty cool.  You just told me this first person that you came out, who is the first 28 transgender or gender non-binary person you met?   29 
JB: Oh.  Its funny because even before you realized it you may have met a transgender person 30 years before you actually met someone you knew was transgender because you would just 31 never know. 32 
AJ: True, very true.   33 
JB: But the first person that comes to mind is a boy who used to go to my school and his name is 34 Liam.  I actually knew of him when he still identified as a girl, like he came in his sophomore year 35 and I was a junior.  And so he came out as Liam his junior year, my senior year.  Our school 36 wasnt really accepting or like coming to terms with transgender students so he still had to live 37 in the girls dorm.   38 
AJ: Thats tough. 1 
JB: Yes, that was tough for me so I cant imagine how it was for him.  But he was the first person I 2 got to meet and talk to on a personal level. 3 
AJ: Did you guys become friends at all?   4 
JB: We became acquaintances and hes actually friends with the girl who I first talked to about my 5 gender identity and so we kind of met through that.  We didnt really become like close friends 6 but we became acquaintances and we talked to each other and hung out with each other every 7 now and then.   8 
AJ: Sure, yeah.  Wow.  Who inspires you in the non-binary transgender movement?   9 
JB: Hmmm?  So many people, but I think the first person that came to mind is Amandla Stenberg.  10 She was a girl who played Rue in the Hunger Games and she grew up to be this largely 11 influential feminist queer, unapologetically Black activist.  I first felt a connection to her when 12 she released a video of her coming out as bisexual, as a Black bisexual woman, and I was like 13 whoa, someone permanent in this community who is Black and bisexual.  You dont really see a 14 lot of Black bisexual representation and then in another interview I found out that she is also 15 non-binary and uses both she and they pronouns and I thought wow, even more representation 16 that kind of . . . it was after I found that out, I saw myself . . . it was like I saw a lot of myself in 17 her.  Were both non-binary, were both Black, and were both Black and bisexual and besides 18 female at birth, were both passionate about social justice and activism.   19 
AJ: Wow.   20 
JB: And, yeah, thats been really cool.  And theres actually this group on Instagram who I followed 21 just earlier this year and its called The Art Hoe Collective.   22 
AJ: Which one? 23 
JB: Its called the Art Hoe Collective 24 
AJ: How do you spell that?   25 
JB: Art and then Hoe H-o-e Collective.   26 
AJ: OK. 27 
JB: And it started with these two Black femme non-binary people who wanted to create a program, 28 or create a safe space where young people from marginalized identities can express themselves 29 through art and also with a special focus on queer people of color, people of color, non-binary 30 folks.  And so, following them and seeing their interviews and just following their personal pages 31 and what they stand for, I found that to be really cool that they took something that they were 32 really passionate about and provided this platform for young and upcoming artists who are from 33 marginalized identities.  So thats a collective and two people who Im also influenced by.   34 
AJ: Thats awesome.  Im just wondering, you stated that you bind, have you undergone any sort of 35 medical interventions in terms of presenting as non-binary or gender-fluid?  And, if not, do you 36 have any thoughts or plans to?   37 
JB: Actually no.  That was actually something that I first realized, I identity as trans non-binary but I 1 dont feel a desire to go through any medical transitions or have major top surgery or go on 2 hormones.  But, I do want to have breast reduction surgery because I love the idea of a flat 3 chest but I dont know if I want a completely flat chest for the rest of my life, if that makes any 4 sense.  So, I would like breast reduction surgery because Ive always felt uncomfortable about 5 how big my breasts were.  So, I want to reduce them to where I can bind easily and more 6 comfortably but I still have them. 7 
AJ: Yes.  Since youve sort of been out and youve only been out at your school for a little while 8 now, or even in your senior year in high school, have you had any challenges in terms of 9 institutions like school or the police or TSA or any negative experiences related to your gender 10 expression?   11 
JB: Hmm, I think there were problems just in general about how the administration at my school 12 isnt really LGBTQ inclusive in general and not just for non-binary people.  And really the only 13 people there who I trusted to not treat me differently or act weirdly about my gender identity is 14 my German teacher, actually, who Ive grown a really close relationship with, and one of my 15 Math teachers, who was the sponsor of the GSA at school.  But I think the challenges Ive faced 16 was not necessarily with the institutions but with finding a space where I could express myself. 17 
AJ: Sure. 18 
JB: Finding a safe space.  I think that was really the struggle that I have experienced throughout my 19 senior year of high school.   20 
AJ: Has it gotten better then at Macalester? 21 
JB: Oh yes, definitely.  One of my main concerns was finding a place where I could be out as queer 22 but I could also be a Christian and talk about how my queerness and my religion intersect and 23 talk about that because religion and my relationship with Jesus is the most important thing in 24 my life and thats something that I dont want to be affected by my sexual orientation and my 25 gender identity.  So finding a space like that and knowing that the Christian fellowship at my 26 school is LGBTQ affirming and that actually a lot of the student leaders are queer themselves, 27 thats been a really great realization to have  knowing that I have that space to talk about that. 28 
AJ: Wow.  So you identify as a Christian? 29 
JB: Yes. 30 
AJ: What denomination?   31 
JB: Im non-denominational but I think my mom was raised Baptist. 32 
AJ: Got it.  Yeah, Alabama.   33 
JB: Yes. 34 
AJ: The deep, deep south  the Bible Belt.  Wow.  I guess you . . . what do you think about this 35 broader LGBQ community and its relationship to trans or non-binary identities?  Do you feel 36 supported within the broader LGBTQ community or not? 37 
JB: Thats a good question.   1 
AJ: I do.  I have realized that there has been . . . although there has been kind of more attention on 2 non-binary identities through non-binary communities, through Tumblr and just websites to 3 where more youth and non-binary voices are valued, I find that a lot and Im completely happy 4 about that.  But I do notice that non-binary identities are seen as very invalid as well.  Of course, 5 the classic argument is there are only two genders and thats been really disheartening because 6 I could completely understand about how the gender binary and the gender norms have been 7 engrained into our heads for so long, unless you are willing to be open-minded or you went 8 through that, its hard to think outside that norm.  But still, its like just because somebody is 9 figuring themselves out or see themselves in a different way than youre used to, that doesnt 10 make them wrong for being themselves, it just makes them different and its OK to be different.  11 But, I feel like a lot of people within the LGBQ community dont really realize that and they 12 havent been as open to it.  I guess I could say on a personal level as well since I . . .  13 
Part 2 14 
AJ: And we are back.  You were just talking about sort of how non-binary people are included or 15 whats the connection with the broader LGBQ community. 16 
JB: Basically what I wanted to say about it is that even though I do see improvement and 17 recognition and I do see non-binary being more validated, in fact Oregon just listed non-binary 18 as a legal gender now - so if youre going to get your drivers license or a legal document you can 19 say youre non-binary on there.  So, being on a national level is amazing.  And even a couple 20 more than that, President Obama has recognized a person, a gender-queer person asked him a 21 question and he addressed them as gender-queer which is something a President has never 22 done before, which is amazing.  But, at the same time there still seems to be this internalized 23 transphobia, in a sense, or like a phobia of non-binary identities throughout the community 24 because they are more than two genders or a term I hate is, Theyre just being special 25 snowflakes who want attention.  And its very aggravating and in that aspect we still have just a 26 lot of work to do. 27 
AJ: Yeah, absolutely.  Have you ever volunteered or worked with an LGBT or gender non-binary 28 organization or group? 29 
JB: Sadly . . . well, I know Ive been a part of groups, but Ive never volunteered in a group or have 30 been involved in a group that focused on LGBTQ activism even though thats something I really, 31 really want to do since coming to the Twin Cities area.  Im trying to find some way I can get 32 involved in that. 33 
AJ: Well, theres lots of opportunities to get involved.  Im sure right on your campus too, but youre 34 getting into the life of school and college and Minnesota and its about to get pretty chilly 35 around here.  Did you buy a new coat  and some boots, I hope? 36 
JB: I did, I did  yes, definitely.  Yeah, my mom actually bought me like the perfect heavy jacket 37 actually just all the way back in August so I dont have to worry about finding one later.  I 38 actually brought more of my heavier jackets from home too over Thanksgiving.  So Im definitely 39 set. 40 
AJ: Youre set  well good.  Wow, this is fascinating discussing this whole sort of notion around non-1 binary gender identity.  How do you think that is going to impact and change the way culture 2 and society views gender and gender identities? 3 
JB: By culture, I assume you mean western culture because non-binary genders or genders other 4 than male and female has actually existed in a lot of eastern cultures such as communities in 5 India and other countries in southeast Asia.  To me the way I see it is its western culture that 6 has really enforced gender binary norm expectations of gender, and so to me more recognition 7 of this would just shake just about everything up.  Because to me, really, identifying as non-8 binary is really a rather cool notion because youre basically looking at centuries worth of this 9 enforced expectation of the gender you were assigned at birth and just saying, Screw that, 10 thats not how I feel, this is how I feel and I want this to be respected.  And so this is . . . so its 11 totally radical and something that is so out of the box for so many people and no doubt, once it 12 gets more attention in this culture it will be rejected a lot, but sooner or later change has to 13 come.  So I believe that it will challenge a lot of people, it will maybe help more people realize 14 something about themselves maybe, and it will basically just . . . I keep repeating this, I keep 15 repeating that it will shake things up but I think it really will because it will just have such a very 16 ripple effect on everything and everyone, even on the most broad and the most personal level.  17 So it will be a huge change but I think in the long run it will be in a good way.   18 
AJ: Wow, yeah.  You know, Im just curious, when youre talking to people sort of in your age group 19 and in your social circle, are you hearing more people talking about a non-binary identity or a 20 more transgender label identity?  Or probably, like most people, most of your friends are cis 21 gender, huh?   22 
JB: Yeah, basically.  Actually Ive heard more conversations of people . . . Ive heard more 23 conversations in my friends group of the notion or question of sexuality and not necessarily 24 gender.  But at the same time I think that is something that is a lot more personal to someone 25 because sexuality is just who youre attracted to and who you like, but gender is literally a part 26 of you  it is a part of your solid identity and so sexuality is a big thing, I realize, but gender is 27 just a humungous thing to realize and come to terms to yourself with.  So, I feel like maybe 28 overall my . . . so maybe not just my friends, but overall as youth, we may not be so open to 29 talking about it openly because I still feel like were in a phase where were in a period of time 30 where were still trying to figure out when is the best time to talk about sexuality with our 31 friends, let alone gender identity.  So I guess to answer your question, I dont really hear a lot of 32 conversations from my overall friend group about gender because most of my friends are cis 33 gender, even though I do have some friends who are trans and non-binary themselves.  But I do 34 hear a lot of conversations about questioning their sexuality. 35 
AJ: What do you think this new presidential administration is going to mean for the trans and 36 gender non-conforming movement? 37 
JB: Yikes. 38 
AJ: This is a brand new question that Im just now starting to ask people because its just now our 39 new reality. 40 
JB: Yeah.  Having . . . yikes. 1 
AJ: And the reason why I ask this question is because you mentioned President Obama sort of 2 pointing out gender non-binary identities and respecting that and Im not sure if we can expect 3 that same thing out of this new incoming administration. 4 
JB: Im not so sure either, especially since we have Vice President Mike Pence and its . . . ahh, just 5 staying that makes me cringe.  Its definitely going to be multiple steps backwards, I think, from 6 the progress we want to make but that just means we have to work harder and resist harder 7 than ever, I believe.  With this administration its so much more important than ever to get to 8 have our voices heard and lift up other peoples voices, like actually a quote that someone has 9 printed on the back of their shirts and they were at an anti-hate rally in Arizona.  On the back it 10 said, Respect my existence or expect my resistance. 11 
AJ: Hmmm, OK. 12 
JB: And I really, really loved that. 13 
AJ: You resonated with that, huh? 14 
JB: Yeah, it definitely resonated . . . 15 
AJ: Say it again. 16 
JB: Respect my existence or expect my resistance.  And that really resonated with me and I was like 17 - yeah, exactly.  All we want . . . all Black people want, what people of color want, all that queer 18 people and non-binary people want is to be respected and treated as equals, as equals to 19 someone who is cis gender or straight or white, just to be treated equally.  And to have the 20 administration who doesnt really see that and doesnt really prioritize that, that to me just 21 more than ever is like . . . its like I need to speak up more, I need to fight more, and we need to 22 let it be known that we are people who want to be respected and treated equally and were not 23 going to accomplish that without a fight, if necessary. 24 
AJ: Wow. 25 
JB: Thats how I think about it. 26 
AJ: Very well stated.  So Jessi, is there any questions that I didnt have the foresight to ask you that 27 you want to be sure to state about non-binary identity, about your own personal relationship to 28 that, about being a Black college freshman in a whole new white world  whatever you think I 29 didnt ask you about that you want to really talk about. 30 
JB: Actually something that has gone through my head was just overall questions like what other 31 parts of you feel intersect with your gender identity or your sexual orientation as well.  I just 32 thought about how my neurodivergence has kind of been factored in that because I have high 33 functioning autism, I have Aspergers Syndrome, and actually when I was first questioning my 34 gender identity I had resentment against myself for asking that but I also felt resentment 35 towards autism as well because I felt like . . . because a common characteristic, or one of the 36 common characteristics of being a high-functioning autism is being easily influenced by ideas 37 you pick up from the ideas of people around you.  And I was scared that I was just questioning 1 my gender because I was just learning about this and I wanted to be like that. 2 
AJ: Which is a valid concern I would say. 3 
JB: Yeah.  And its something I would ask myself and I was like, Youre already a Black individual, 4 you have autism, you are bisexual, why are you adding more stuff to this?  You dont have to do 5 this, youre already special and unique as it is, you dont have to add one more thing to your 6 identity.  So that was actually really concerning to me, I was like, Do I feel like this or do I just 7 want to feel like this just because?  That was a legitimate concern that I had. 8 
AJ: Yes. 9 
JB: And as I talked about it I realized it wasnt going to go away until I talked about it with 10 someone.  So after I talked about it and after Ive kind of come to terms with it, now Im 11 realizing that its a valid concern but the fact that you have autism or youre neurodivergent in 12 another way or you have a mental illness, even though autism isnt a mental illness, but just in a 13 general sense if you have mental illness that doesnt invalidate you being transgender.  14 
AJ: Right  no. 15 
JB: And its OK to step back and ask yourself questions to make sure this is how you feel . . .   16 
AJ: Not only is it OK, I think its imperative that you do. 17 
JB: Yeah, exactly.  But dont let that get in the way of feeling the way you feel because your feelings 18 are valid, your experiences are valid and whatever you have going through your head does not 19 affect . . . whatever you have going through your head does not make your identity invalid. 20 
AJ: Wow, well stated.  Thats brilliant. 21 
JB: Yeah, so thats something that Ive grown to realize and that I hope one day, maybe once I start 22 doing activist work, thats a message I can start giving to other queer individuals who also have 23 autism or neurodivergence or mental illness who have those concerns, is just say, Hey, Ive 24 been in the same position as you are, youre valid, youre allowed to feel these things, and you 25 still have the right for your identity to be respected no matter whats going on in your head. 26 
AJ: Wow.  Im so glad I asked that question because, you know, there is no way I could have gotten 27 to that without you bringing it out, so Im deeply appreciative of you being willing to share 28 around your neurodivergence and Asperger diagnosis, I would say  is that an accurate term? 29 
JB: I would say so, yeah.   30 
AJ: Do you . . . Im pretty sure I know the answer to this but Im going have you . . . do you consider 31 Asperger Syndrome to be a disability?  I know you said its not a mental illness, do you consider 32 it a disability at all? 33 
JB: No, I actually think about it as an enhancement to someones identity.  I feel like Asperger 34 Syndrome allows me to think of ideas in a way no one else has really thought about ideas.  I 35 think by having Aspergers Syndrome allows me to have the passion I have for things.  Because 36 of Aspergers I have a one-track mind and I wont stop on that track unless I accomplish it and so 1 I feel like having that enhances my passion and my persistence at getting something done.   2 
AJ: That was certainly evident in your persistence in nailing me down for an interview.   3 
JB: Yeah.  And, yeah, I just think of autism to be such a great and unique part of a person and I 4 would understand how if youre non-verbal or some aspects of autism make life difficult for you 5 to improve it, I dont want it to be ever cured, really, like so many other people are trying to 6 push because autism allows people to see the world and things that a non-autistic person might 7 not think of these and that innovative thinking may lead to answers to questions we have 8 always had or bring up questions we never thought about asking.  So, I feel like . . . but with that 9 being said, I consider autism to be a part of my identity but I dont consider autism to be me  10 like I would like to say, I have autism but autism doesnt have me.   11 
AJ: Wow.   12 
JB: So with that being said, autism is such a beautiful and great part of someones identity but it 13 doesnt fully encompass who someone is.  So to answer your question, no I dont think autism is 14 a disability at all. 15 
AJ: Well neither do I, and I didnt think that you did.  I thought I knew the answer and I was right.   16 
JB: Wow, this has been just a fascinating conversation and such a privilege to talk with you about 17 gender identity and your own non-binary identity and your own life.  I really, really appreciate it.  18 One last question, where do you see the transgender non-binary movement in the next 50 19 years?  What do you think life will be like for transgender and non-binary identified folks in 50 20 years? 21 
AJ: Hmmm, oddly I never really think about this really.  Im just kind of focusing on whats in the 22 present, I dont really think about the future. 23 
JB: And thats fair.  But, the way things are going I would definitely see this as being, in 50 years 24 when our children, and hopefully by this time teaching about LGBTQ events will be a regular 25 part of the history curriculum and not just a special part of the curriculum  hopefully by that 26 time.  And by that time I can easily imagine this time period in this administration being a huge 27 topic to talk about with the transgender and the non-binary community.  Its like the way people 28 . . .  29 
AJ: Which administration?  The Obama . . .? 30 
JB: The Trump administration, yes.  Like the way people talk about Stonewall I can easily see people 31 talking about the transgender non-binary movement throughout the Trump administration 32 because I can definitely see a lot of work happening during this period.  33 
AJ: Thats interesting. 34 
JB: And hopefully by that point non-binary is a more accepted gender identity by western culture, 35 and probably by other cultures as well and people actually see they/them as legitimate 36 pronouns  although it always has been but hopefully by then more people will see them as 37 legitimate pronouns to use for a person.  And, I dont know . . . I guess thats all I really have to 1 say.  I guess we just have to tune in and see what happens in the future.   2 
AJ: All right.  Well listen, thank you so much Jessi Brandon.  I really appreciate it  and until we meet 3 again, my friend.   4 
JB: Until we meet again.  Its a privilege being here.  Thank you so much. 5 
AJ: Bye. 6 
JB: Bye. 7 

