   
Roze (R.B.) Brooks Narrator   Andrea Jenkins Interviewer 
    
The Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies University of Minnesota 
November 3, 2016 
 
 
   

 
  
The Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story, while providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source material about the transgender community.  The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for current and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public. 
The Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300 individuals over the next three years.  Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and experiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality.  This project will be led by Andrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist.  Andrea brings years of experience working in government, non-profits and LGBT organizations.  If you are interested in being involved in this exciting project, please contact Andrea. 
Andrea Jenkins jenki120@umn.edu (612) 625-4379 
   
 
Andrea Jenkins -AJ 1 
Roze (R.B.) Brooks  -RB 2 
 3 
 4 
AJ: Hello.   5 
RB: Whats up? 6 
AJ: My name is Andrea Jenkins and I am the oral historian for the Transgender Oral History Project 7 at the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  Today is November 3, 2016, and I am 8 here on this gorgeous fall day in Duluth, Minnesota, and Im here with Roze (R.B.) Brooks.  How 9 are you today, Roze? 10 
RB: Doing quite all right.   11 
AJ: Yeah. 12 
RB: Yes.   13 
AJ: Awesome,awesome.  Can you state your name and how you spell it so we make sure we have 14 the spelling right?  And, the name that you would prefer me to use in this conversation, the 15 gender pronouns that you use, your gender assigned at birth, and your gender that you identify 16 today. 17 
RB: Sure.  All easy, right?  So, yeah  Roze Brooks, Roze or R.B.  Roze, R-o-z-e  Rose with a z.  R.B., 18 the initials  both are fine, I dont really have a preference on either.  They/them pronouns.  I 19 was assigned, unconsentually right, female at birth, and I currently identify as gender queer and 20 non-binary. 21 
AJ: Wow, thats awesome.  So, can you just tell me what is your earliest memory?  Whats the first 22 thing you remember in life?   23 
RB: Like at all? 24 
AJ: Yeah, your first memory.  It doesnt have to be around gender but if it is, thats cool.  25 
RB: Wow.  I dont know, I guess Im fortunate to remember back to being a child so lots of back yard 26 time with pets.  I dont know why when you said that I popped up with apple picking in St. Louis 27 or more of the rural areas of St. Louis.  Theres a lot of orchards in St. Louis for some reason that 28 clicked too, so apple picking was a thing.   29 
AJ: Apple picking, thats pretty cool  thats a fun thing for kids to do. 30 
RB: Yeah. 31 
AJ: I dont think I went apple picking as a child.  Ive done it with my children many times but I 32 would imagine its a very memorable experience as a very young child. 33 
RB: I guess, thats what popped up. 34 
AJ: So you grew up in St. Louis  St. Louis, Missouri.   35 
RB: Yes. 1 
AJ: What was that like, beyond the apple orchards? 2 
RB: It was interesting and I feel like not being in St. Louis now, like I dont really knew that I 3 understood what it meant to live in a very urban epicenter  like living kind of on the precipice 4 of the city but not quite the city, not really having a lot of opportunity to really explore the city 5 because of stigma that was hanging out at home.  So like looking at it now, I really just kind of 6 didnt really get to explore the city and really understand what the city meant.  I didnt really 7 understand all the problems and nuances that were going on in the city.  But, because of a lot of 8 that, because of parameters put in place it was fine, it was safe, it was comfortable.  I did the 9 high school thing, did the hanging out with friends thing and there was never really . . . I was 10 comfortable, so it was fine except for not being in the greatest home environment as I started to 11 understand other things  but St. Louis is great. 12 
AJ: St. Louis is great.   13 
RB: Yeah. 14 
AJ: So you kind of alluded to school being pretty cool, at least better than your home environment.  15 So you had friends? 16 
RB: Yes. 17 
AJ: Were you queer identified in school? 18 
RB: It was a work in progress.  I was a choir kid and a theatre kid so that, I feel, is a troke for some 19 reason for queer folk but I spent a lot of time, extra time, in high school especially, extra time 20 after school doing theatre stuff and choir stuff and thats where all the queer kids kind of 21 congregating.  I dont know that all of us knew it at the time or what was going on at the time, 22 but a lot of those folks that I was closest to, we all realized it eventually  some shade of queer, 23 yeah. 24 
AJ: That is interesting.  Thats good though because, I mean, I know a lot of people who identify as 25 trans and/or queer or gay or lesbian get teased in school or bullied in school and that was not 26 your experience. 27 
RB: Not really.  I feel that because I was so particular about the spaces I was in that it wasnt an 28 issue. 29 
AJ: So you curated your own safe space. 30 
RB: Id seen it, I witnessed it for other folks but even those folks, not to diminish it, but it really 31 wasnt too chronic of a thing.  There was the occasional instance with your trophy masculine 32 humans that had qualms with it, especially with the gay men in high school.  But it wasnt 33 ridiculous, Id say, compared to what I know is the reality for a lot of folks. 34 
AJ: So you were out in high school? 35 
RB: A little bit  yeah, it didnt feel like an out thing.  I know that I came out to myself and one other 36 friend when I was like 15, because it was my first permission slip, I guess, into really 37 understanding some sexuality stuff  the gender stuff was a long time coming at that point, but 1 the sexuality stuff was a conversation.  But it didnt mean anything in high school, there really 2 wasnt a lot of exploring on that or felt the need to because I was just comfortable and I had my 3 choir folk and my theatre folk and everything was just comfortable. 4 
AJ: Right.  So, tell me about your home life. 5 
RB: Yeah, that was a hot mess.  I have two younger brothers, theyre twins  theyre four years 6 younger than me, so I was technically the oldest in the house because I have an older half-7 brother who is 18 years older so really by the time that I was a conscious child, he was pretty 8 much out of the house.  Were a dysfunctional family, which 90% of people probably say their 9 family is dysfunctional, but it just wasnt great.  Mom is super anti-everything . . . anti-gay, anti-10 people of color, anti-everything and very paranoid about the world which is why I didnt really 11 get to explore the city a whole lot because bad things would happen if I went certain places.  So 12 it was just really restrictive.  Dads always been fine, but theres always been turbulence 13 between the two of them, so just a lot of not getting to explore enough relationships with 14 extended family either.  So really fast forward all through that, there was a reason I jetted clear 15 across the state to go to school in Kansas City when I was able to, I ducked out as soon as I could 16 because it wasnt great.  I just didnt really get to do anything, No was a very common answer 17 for just trying to live and do cool things and it was just always, No, you cant do that.  Why?  18 No answer.  Just, No, you cant. 19 
AJ: But there was no harassment or bullying or physical sort of . . . violence? 20 
RB: Yes and no.  I think there was this veil of denial that there was any possible queerness going on, 21 like even throughout high school because I didnt spend a lot of time at home anyway.  I think 22 my parents spent a lot of time bringing up my two younger brothers.  I was a good child as far as 23 they were concerned so they didnt really have to spend a lot of time attending to me so I kind 24 of . . . my high school was literally like walking distance, you could hear it and see it from my 25 house.  So if I was at school they knew I was in proximity so I could do whatever I wanted at 26 school because they knew where I was, so that was never an issue.  So me spending all that time 27 was never a concern, but I dont know . . . just weird stuff, like lots of just verbal disputes.  My 28 dad would get really worked up and it was always something petty and something silly and my 29 mom was really stellar at bringing up whatever year at the time  like years worth of just simple 30 things, like family stuff and it was just never necessary.  But there was verbal stuff.  I dont really 31 know, I never really unpacked a lot of that  its a long time ago.  Lets just say it wasnt great, it 32 wasnt healthy I dont feel like either.   33 
AJ: What was your relationship like with the twins?   34 
RB: I kind of did my own thing and so did they, thats still kind of the case now.  We dont have a bad 35 relationship, we just . . . theyre not very social people.  One of them is a big video gamer, hung 36 out in the basement all the time; the other one was never home either.  So we just kind of 37 learned . . . I think that was what it bread us out of though, that house wasnt one where there 38 was a lot of communication happening so we just kind of, by default, just kind of did our own 39 thing and found our own friend groups and kept to our own because that was the best method. 40 Because if we talked about what we were doing wed get criticized, even if it was something 41 simple, or if we were doing something that might be deemed a problem, then all hell would 1 break loose in the house and then the parents would go at it again because it would be one of 2 their faults.  I dont know.  It was just a lot of cyclical . . . we just kept to our own because that 3 was the best way to do it.   4 
AJ: When did you realize that you might be, or that you felt like, that youre a gender different from 5 the one you were assigned at birth? 6 
RB: Now that Im at this point now where I very definitively identify as I do, I look back and I think of 7 some really funny instances where it might have been a thing that I should have noticed at the 8 time, but really the tipping point was the summer between graduating from college and starting 9 grad school because I didnt get control over coming out in terms of my general queerness 10 sexuality-wise.  My mom took it upon herself to figure out how to use Google, and she is not a 11 tech savvy person so this being her first adventure in Google was not good for me because 12 Googling basically just my name and found all of this stuff Id already been affiliated with  like 13 conferences Id been part of planning and interviews Id done for radio stations . . . all of my 14 journalism stuff which was very queer focused.  So I didnt really get control over that and I 15 remember being in Kansas City and getting a text message, Ask me about tattoos.  And Im 16 like, What are you talking about?   17 
AJ: I was going to ask you about your tattoos too  so me and mom were on the same page in a 18 way.  I dont know.   19 
RB: Right.  She messages me about, Did you get a tattoo?  And Im looking at myself and Ive got 20 13 of them and Im like, Which one?  Tattoos were not a safe conversation necessarily either.  21 She didnt oppose of them but she had very specific ideas of what I should be getting so me 22 getting something that wasnt on the approved list would have been a problem.  I dont even 23 know how to deal with this so I left it alone, put the phone down for a bit, and came back and it 24 was just an explosion of all caps, broken English text messages of just going off on all this stuff 25 shed found and Im like, I dont know what to do with this.  I didnt know even what she had 26 found because of the power of Google.  Theres so many things . . . all of my social media.  27 Nothing that I would have had a qualm with but I knew that this was the worst possible thing for 28 her.  So, because of all of that I was like, Well, my closet door just got blown off the hinges so 29 let me just start messing around with everything else.  So that was probably the first time I was 30 ever able to really be introspective and have a conversation with myself of like, Well, now Im 31 free to do whatever.  And there had been a lot of instances, because I was fortunate to have 32 lots of queer higher ed spaces that I was able to go to throughout college, like conferences and 33 summits and stuff and there was always usually caucuses that were specifically for certain 34 identities.  I always wanted to go to the trans one but I was like, I dont feel like Im supposed 35 to be there yet, I feel really comfortable in the bi-sexuality ones and the fluid ones so Im going 36 to keep going to this because I can have this conversation. But I always regretted not going to 37 the trans ones just to even test the waters to see if that felt right.  So there was a leadership 38 academy that I went to that summer after all the mayhem with mom, that I still didnt go to but 39 I talked to folks that had and a really close friend of mine . . .  40 
AJ: You didnt go . . . you didnt go to the leadership academy.   41 
RB: Well I went to the academy but we had a caucus space also for trans folks.   1 
AJ: Oh, you didnt go to the trans thing. 2 
RB: And I still didnt go but I was toying with alternating pronouns, right?  I had started asking for 3 either the gendered pronouns I was using at the time or they/them and so I was . . . this is me 4 weaseling in a little bit to see what this feels like.  I still didnt go to any of the trans spaces at 5 the summer academy but had folks that had gone to those spaces or folks that I was getting 6 gradually closer with  there was something to this.  There really wasnt a moment but at least 7 that summer I was just like well, all bets are off so let me just start toying around and testing 8 everything and see what fits and this is where Ive currently landed.  I was joking with a friend 9 super recently and I was like, I was a tenor in choir several times, like I was allowed to be that 10 and it was the best feeling in the world of being a tenor because I was a super low alto and any 11 time we didnt have enough tenors I got to be one and I was like, That should have been . . .  I 12 was mid-phone call with him and I just stopped and hes like, Where did you go?  Im like, Im 13 just having a moment because thats really funny.  He just laughed at me. 14 
AJ: Wow.  Yeah, I mean sometimes trans identity you get that affirmation wherever you can, right?  15 But, your story sort of, at least that part of it, sort of defies the myth that people knew when 16 they were 4-years-old and everybody always called them a little boy when they were only six.  17 Thats not your story.  Whats the importance of really, in your mind, being able to hear a wide 18 range of identities and how people come to those identities?  Because it sounds like you may 19 have come to these realizations through more of a socialization process. 20 
RB: Yeah, and thats where I was headed in my thought to kind of how to even kind of unpack that  21 the importance of having those abundance and diversity of stories, right?  I didnt know . . . I 22 knew a lot of gay and lesbian folks in high school because that was . . . 10 or 11 years ago, we 23 didnt have a whole lot of language.  Like even when I was 15, bi-sexual was the first word I 24 encountered that felt the most relative and now Im quite a few years removed from that  that 25 was my permission slip into it.  So I didnt know any trans folk at the time, I didnt even know 26 what that meant  I didnt know what a lot of that entailed.  So had I had stories or access to 27 some of that, had I had Tumblr when I was 15-years-old, quite frankly, a lot of that would have 28 changed because I would have seen different experiences and I think some of it might have 29 clicked  maybe, maybe it would have clicked sooner or I would have gone on a different 30 journey in a different way sooner than having to have to happen at a very traumatic time of 31 having that outing process happen and then me just saying, Well, let me just mess around with 32 everything else in the process.  I think it would have helped.   33 
AJ: Wow.  So whats your relationship like with your family now? 34 
RB: Im still a hot mess.  I have cut . . . well, it wasnt just me, it was a pretty mutual process of 35 cutting all ties with my mom.  I dont even usually call her mom but I felt like it would be 36 awkward if I started calling her maternal birth giver during this, but thats usually how I refer to 37 her.  Me and my dad are fine.  It was weird at first and we dont really talk a lot about much.  He 38 doesnt actually know the extent of the trans stuff, but as far as me living my life, hes super 39 supportive of that and is really proud of everything Ive done so far.  Im the first in our family to 40 get a higher ed degree of any kind. 41 
AJ: OK, thats awesome.  Congratulations. 1 
RB: So hes like, I dont know why shes so pissed off at you about all the rest of this, you are the 2 first in the family to do all of this amazing stuff.  Hes looking past . . . 3 
AJ: So dads bringing the love. 4 
RB: Dad is great.  Dads fine and thats always been the case so I dont think that I was necessarily 5 surprised about that, but I just wish that I had had control over the conversation because I dont 6 even know what they think they know because weve never talked about it.  My brothers and I 7 chit-chat on occasion, usually theyre messaging me about how do I do a FAFSA and how do I do 8 this other stuff.   9 
AJ: Because you have a degree in higher ed. 10 
RB: Right.  Well because I was the first one to do it too, so theyre like, I dont know how to do 11 this.  My parents arent really super useful at assisting in some of that either because they 12 dont know what that means.  One of my brothers just started attending school though at a very 13 conservative institution in Tennessee thats on the list of schools that have filed for Title IX 14 exemptions so it was really hard for me to try to figure out how to have a conversation with him 15 about how that impacts me as a person without really having to divulge and talk too much 16 about me in that.   17 
AJ: Right. 18 
RB: And wanting to support him to go to school because his concern is baseball, he doesnt care 19 about it being a faith-based institution, he just wants to play baseball and someone offered him 20 a spot and so there he went.  But Im like, I need you to know, that this is a thing that has 21 possible severe consequences for people.   22 
AJ: Wow.  Theres always these sort of these conundrums that we face in life because yeah, you 23 want to be supportive of him, of course, but there are still these values that we have.   24 
RB: And I never expected that to be a conversation because Im like, Youre going where?  To do 25 what? And hes studying criminal justice and Im like . . . this is a space where I dont know 26 what thats going to look like thats going to have very interesting perspectives . . . 27 
AJ: Wow, youve got to talk to this young man, Roze. 28 
RB: Right.  I tried, I did.  I dont want to . . . I dont know. 29 
AJ: What school is this?   30 
RB: What is it even called? Freed-Hardeman University in I dont know where Tennessee.   31 
AJ: Wow, OK. 32 
RB: I did some research because I was like, Ive never heard of this.  Very small, very conservative.  33 Im like this is the antithesis of what I do, but this is family and so Im like how do I support him 34 in doing something hes been working toward to play baseball, but it also has like a huge impact 35 on . . . 36 
AJ: Just tell him to dont join the fraternity called KKK.   1 
RB: I think hes conscious enough for that one, I think it was just trying to dive into some of the 2 more nuanced stuff  like, This could be an issue, I want you to think very seriously.  Ive at 3 least given him the motive to just ask questions and be critical of what youre learning in class 4 because thats the last thing I need is for you to come out with a criminal justice degree and 5 think that marginalized folks are the enemy in that.  So that one has been hard. 6 
AJ: So, what challenges have you faced beyond your brother being a sort of far-right Christian? 7 
RB: Which is weird, because hes not.   8 
AJ: Law enforcement aspire-e.  Lets hope the baseball thing works out and at least he wont be 9 pulling people over for broken headlights.  What challenges have you faced since you have been 10 more out?  At least . . . because it sounds like youre not very out around your gender identity to 11 your folks even though you dont see your mom at all. 12 
RB: Not to family of origin, no.  I would say with chosen family and friends especially  like right out 13 of the gate after undergrad.  It didnt really feel like it required this announcement process, it 14 just kind of happened and then the pronoun thing happened.  Some of them took to it fine and 15 some were like, Well, this is weird, and then an adjustment.  But I think the challenge has just 16 been really figuring out who Im going to continue to invest my energy in.  Starting grad school, 17 because of having all the turbulence with the origin family stuff and wanting to hang on to the 18 important people from undergrad, I was really reluctant to try to invest in new relationships 19 with folks in grad school and then also felt like I was playing educator in the classroom in not the 20 way that I was hired on to do so  not knowing if folks were asking me questions because of my 21 identities or if folks were asking me because I was technically the expert person who was doing 22 LGBT work on campus  which is still a thing that I feel like I have to navigate of figuring out how 23 much intellectual and emotional labor Im willing to pour into if folks are asking out of curiosity 24 or if theyre asking because they want to do self-work.   25 
AJ: Wow.  You speak and your thought process is like that of an activist in some ways.   26 
RB: Yeah. 27 
AJ: And as a journalist, what . . . do you consider yourself a trans politic advocate? 28 
RB: For sure.  Yeah, and trying to get to an understanding of that when Im situated in higher ed has 29 been its own challenge too because I was always that person who is like, Im never going to 30 have anything to do with politics.  And then when I realized how important and literally life-31 altering it would be to have to invest in understanding how politics impact identities, I was like, 32 Well, I guess I cant actually just ignore politics.  I think watching a lot of that stuff play out in 33 higher education and knowing what my experiences was and are in higher education, has really 34 prompted a lot of push also because Ive been doing LGBT advocacy work, at minimum, and now 35 that I understand what the difference would have been for me but in undergrad it was planning 36 programs and doing the awareness stuff and thinking that was the gamut and then I went to 37 grad school and got angrier than I thought I already was, and then just became the loud person 38 and Im like, Im OK with this.  I didnt ever think I was going to be that person who spoke up 39 at every given moment in class but Im like I dont care anymore, I dont care about folks 1 comfort and once I understood the very important difference between comfort and safety and 2 knowing I wasnt safe, I didnt care about making people uncomfortable if it meant that they 3 learned or that they were interrupted in their problematic behavior.  But it was two years of 4 grad school of doing that, but then trying to figure out how to channel anger into some 5 productive means of advocacy in a way that was going to be effective.  So I spent two years, at 6 least, of grad school being super transparent with students about how much agency they 7 actually have and trying to motivate them to do things but also trying to motivate 8 administrators and folks who are in some kind of higher ed capacity to not just wait until the 9 students do it because its not technically their job  but then not always heeding my own 10 advice and being a student in that capacity and doing a lot of the work.  So, Id like to do more 11 outside of the higher ed scheme but I feel like thats been everywhere that Ive had to pour 12 because especially doing this work in Kansas and having the identities I had in Kansas every day  13 was a, Well, what mess am I going to run into today, what fire do I have to put out today? and 14 knowing I was the only trans person in not just my office but pretty much the entire campus at 15 some kind of staff level as far as I knew  openly.  And without a doubt Im the first openly trans 16 person to go through my higher ed program, that I was the guinea pig in a lot of ways.  And so 17 kind of being the guinea pig I was the voice whether I liked it or not.   18 
AJ: I will be glad when there are no more firsts for trans people, right?   19 
RB: Right, its not an accolade anymore  not really, no. 20 
AJ: Its like we need to be moved . . . we need to, as a society, move beyond that except it would be 21 cool to have the first trans woman of color president.   22 
RB: Oh for sure. 23 
AJ: That would be so amazing.   24 
RB: Id vote on that ticket immediately.   25 
AJ: Wow, so to the extent that you feel comfortable, Roze, have there been any medical 26 interventions related to your transition?   27 
RB: No.  Thats been a lot of internal conversations and just trying to figure out what that means.  I 28 think whats been stressful, just trying to co-exist in some trans space, is that that seems to be 29 the priority of conversation in a lot of spaces too, right?  And so really just trying to detach 30 myself from it and have a conversation with myself about whats important and what that 31 means just because I feel like whether its peer-to-peer group conversations or Facebook 32 groups, Im in a lot of Facebook groups, that the bulk of conversation is folks passing resources 33 or having conversations about how to do certain elected procedures for things and Im like, Can 34 we talk about something really conceptual and existential and academic?  Thats what I want to 35 talk about.  So just trying to find that outlet, recognizing the need for those resources and those 36 conversations for folks that want to go that trajectory, which not really having committed and 37 understood what that means for me, but I just want to talk about gender because thats fun to 38 me.  I just want to talk about it. 39 
AJ: OK, talk about gender.  Tell me about gender  I want to hear about gender from RBs 1 perspective. 2 
RB: Just deep, interesting, intellectual conversations, which sounds pompous and ridiculous but . . .  3 
AJ: No, I think gender is like this thing that is being hotly debated and rapidly sort of moving in very, 4 very uncharted directions in terms of this current societys recognition of it. 5 
RB: And everybody has suddenly become an expert on gender, right?   6 
AJ: Right. 7 
RB: With the bathroom debate crap and especially in higher ed  thats been a biggie.  Title IX stuff 8 and how to accommodate for trans students and youve got organizations of every variety 9 speaking on it and youve got really problematic folks that are speaking on college campuses 10 about it, right?  But everybody has suddenly become an expert on gender, but theyre not.  Like 11 the folks that are getting the air time are typically the folks that are the least versed and the 12 least competent on really the complexities of gender. 13 
AJ: Like who?  Are you speaking of someone specifically? 14 
RB: Which example?  Politicians, for one  politicians for the most part . . . I cant really even think of 15 anybody off the top of my head that have any room really talking about gender things policy-16 wise.  And were not seeing the bright voices that are being wedged into these spaces to have 17 public conversations and really contribute to the rhetoric because they get pushed aside.  So its 18 just been frustrating to watch and I think theres just a lot of pressure in some ways because of 19 the national rhetoric or folks that are creating policies are supposed to be inclusive and 20 accommodating for trans folks but theyre missing . . . theyre still very much from a binary 21 place.   22 
AJ: Right. 23 
RB: And so for folks that dont co-exist in that, trying to figure out where we fall and feeling like the 24 debris that is falling through the cracks of these policies that are trying to be written or these 25 conversations that are being had or these organizations that are being crafted.  It just gets 26 stressful when, for some reason, the conversation always seems to dwindle down to biology and 27 me and biology are not friends  not at all, so just that being the root of the conversation thats 28 where I just get really fed up.  Can we just talk about something . . . I dont know, else?   29 
AJ: So you have no desire to necessarily physically transition but more of a social spiritual 30 transition?   31 
RB: I dont know if I dont have the desire.   32 
AJ: And I dont even know why I threw spiritual on there but actually it is sort of a spiritual 33 transition, it can be. 34 
RB: Right, yes.  I dont know, I think that journey is still a-coming.  I dont really know and I just, 35 again, havent really had that conversation with myself and trying to navigate the pressure that 36 can come with certain . . . like with queer and trans spaces of that being, that being the root of 37 every time we talk about trans folks its about biology.  So in some way I think Im being 1 stubborn and trying to distance myself from that conversation so that I can have it with myself 2 instead of feeling like, Well, if Im surrounded by everyone else who is on T or hormones or 3 doing everything else, well I guess Ill just do it too.  I dont want that to be how my decision 4 comes, Because its what everyone else is doing.  To kind of have that conversation with 5 myself before I decide what that even means or looks like.  So I dont know  to be decided.   6 
AJ: What is your status here at the University of Minnesota-Duluth? 7 
RB: What do you mean by status? 8 
AJ: Well, you referred to it earlier  you said, my status in academia.  So whats your job?  What 9 do you do? 10 
RB: What do I do  yeah, that thing.  On paper I am the GLBT Services Program Coordinator.  So Im 11 a party of one in a larger office of Diversity and Inclusion but the only person in my unit doing 12 queer work.   13 
AJ: Is that a part of the Twin Cities campus OED?  Is there some connection at all? 14 
RB: Nope. 15 
AJ: OK. 16 
RB: Theres not. 17 
AJ: So each school has their own office of equity and diversity. 18 
RB: Well our two campuses do, I dont know about the other campuses in our system and a lot of . . . 19 I feel like theres quite a few institutions nationally that dont even have a diversity office let 20 alone a full-time person doing diversity work.  So, yeah  ours do. 21 
AJ: And then even fewer that have an LGBT Center? 22 
RB: Yes, correct.  Hit or miss for sure. 23 
AJ: So thats huge.  Youre the Director of the LGBT office here at Duluth and advocating around 24 gender.  I imagine youre out on campus.  Whats it like navigating that space as an out trans 25 person? 26 
RB: Its taxing work in general and I dont know that it would be drastically different at any 27 institution.  I mean I think that the climate here is set up in a way that I can more seamlessly 28 exist, and even if Im a new being of existence for some folks, theyre trying to navigate what it 29 means to be in solidarity or at least be an ally, whatever that word means for them, to trans 30 folk.  I think theres stuff set-up to where it was much more accommodating in many ways for 31 me to show up here and start doing this work, especially in comparison to having come from 32 Kansas most recently because at Kansas it was . . . there was no seamlessness to it, there was . . 33 . I did not come out of that program or the work that I was doing unscathed down there.  So to 34 come here, its very much . . . 35 
AJ: And this was at the University of Kansas?   36 
RB: Yeah.  So being here in comparison has been a breath of fresh air, like there is still work to do  1 theres always going to be work to do, but I feel like Ive been able to kind of merge into this a 2 lot better.  I think . . . I feel like the general tone of campus, theres been a pretty hearty focus 3 on the G and the L and those folks are doing OK for the most part and those conversations have 4 been had and those programs are in place so Im like, Well, cool, now Im going to . . . 5 
AJ: Can we shift our focus a little bit? 6 
RB:  . . . do some additional stuff here.  I remember we had our national coming out day luncheon a 7 couple weeks ago and we hung up a rainbow flag and a trans flag and most of the conversation 8 up to the point before I was asked to come and do a quick little, Hey, hi and hello, was talking 9 about combatting homophobia and I was like, Youre missing something very important here.  10 So when I got up I winged it and I was like, Yeah, in addition to homophobia you really need to 11 tackle trans phobia and sexism, thats a really big thing that you cant just do part of it, you have 12 to do all of it.   13 
AJ: Well maybe because homophobia is actually really rooted in trans phobia because the people 14 who are harassed are typically people who are either effeminate or masculine or somehow 15 shifting the gender norms, its not necessarily about who people sleep with.  At any rate . . .  16 
RB: Absolutely.  So like thats where I feel folks are kind of at.  They understand the shear notion for 17 gay and lesbian folk at minimum is a perpetual struggle and something that needs to be 18 considered in creating more inclusive environments on campus but I feel like so far its kind of 19 been . . . and also trans people and also trans folk and just kind of a gentle little reminder or 20 add-on to the conversations that are happening, which is of no fault necessarily because of 21 bureaucracy in higher ed, thats where I feel like the entire field is at but just kind of having to 22 be that person who is just constantly having to set the reminder or my sheer existence in the 23 space being the reminder and then folks kind of having to squirm and having to figure out how 24 they adjust their language accordingly.  Thats been kind of a thing Ive had to deal with, not 25 specifically at my institution but just kind of . . . 26 
AJ: Generally, broadly. 27 
RB: Having conversations with folks in higher ed in general, whether its social media or whatever, 28 its like just constantly having to play educator in the spaces where Im trying to be just a 29 participant and trying to learn too.  Im only 25, Ive got a ways to go on the self-work scale but 30 feeling like I always have to be the constant little extra voice of, And also, did you forget 31 this?  Can we add this?  Can we also do this?  Which I dont mind doing but it can be taxing. 32 
AJ: Its work  its work, yeah.  It absolutely is work.  What have been some of the joys of sort of 33 being closer or at least on the journey towards self, I think you referred to it as? 34 
RB: Thats a really great question.  I dont know, I guess Im that person who doesnt take stock of 35 that a lot so lets see here. 36 
AJ: Im asking you to take stock right now. 37 
RB: I know.  Why?  Damn . . . I dont know.  I realize its a journey of self but I feel like just the 38 people, like again the people that Ive learned to invest more in has been very rewarding for me 39 and really important for me of finding people that uplift me in ways that I never had and to 1 really kind of support me through kind of all the trenches of even trying to figure out what this 2 even means or what it looks like.  Ive had really stellar relationships with folks that, if I wasnt 3 really participating in this or figuring this out on my own, I dont know that we ever would have 4 even collided at any point and theyre some of my dearest and closest people that are also kind 5 of exploring the journey too.  So its like weve wandered into this foggy, hazy place where we 6 dont know where were going and just happen to bump into each other and its like, OK, lets 7 keep walking together. 8 
AJ: Wow. 9 
RB: Its been really . . . I think thats been super empowering too to have folks . . . I really gravitate 10 towards folks who I would say are kind of living through the struggle too.  That helps me 11 immensely to know that Im not the only one  as cheesy as that kind of sounds.  But its just 12 been helpful and I think theres just kind of this good reciprocity of energy that happens when I 13 encounter folks that are trying to grapple with some of the same stuff, even if its not the exact 14 same and were at very different places in that process or that journey.  Its just kind of a I see 15 you, you see me, we dont even have to talk about but we know  its just this unspoken 16 knowing thats just really encouraging even though Im currently nine hours away from some of 17 those people, I still get that.  Thats still a thing, thats not going to go away. 18 
AJ: Yeah, its kind of funny  its sort of a metaphor that you moved to Duluth, Minnesota, because 19 it gets kind of foggy up here in the mornings and even late at night being in the harbor and 20 everything, and you said you walked into this sort of foggy existence.  But, things clear up  the 21 sun comes out and you can see a little more clearly. 22 
RB: Yes. 23 
AJ: Talk to me about love and romance and relationships.  How has your trans identity impacted 24 your love life?  And even more broadly, your sexuality. 25 
RB: Sure.  Um . . . I mean its not been like easy, I would say.  I think being, like I said, kind of mindful 26 about who Im investing energy in and trying to navigate what that looks like.  What the 27 difference between investing platonically into a relationship is for like friendship or just a 28 situationship versus what pursuing a possible relationship looks like, I dont know that that line 29 exists anymore because I just pour so fully into my relationships because theyre so few and far 30 between now and Im very much . . . Im so selective and important about who I surround myself 31 with, so I havent really taken a lot of opportunities to try to pursue that because Im still trying 32 to figure out me and still trying to maintain the situationships I currently have, knowing that the 33 two years in Kansas had a shelf life.  I was just like let me collect all of my humans and keep 34 them as tightly close to me as I can and make sure that that maintains and is still a thing.  But I 35 have this conversation a lot with other non-binary friends.  There is just no dating apps, right.  You 36 have to click a gender even when you download a dating app so it's just like let me not even invest and 37 having to have a lot of conflicting conversations with myself of do I bother because I don't really fit into 38 folks perspective of what they think their attraction currently is or do I pour myself into trying to 39 convince someone that I fit into what you think your sexuality is because mine is just pretty 40 freewheeling and I'm just attracted to whatever - it's just kind of a super fluid thing and it has always 41 been a pretty fluid thing and now that my gender is also in this flux, my sexuality is just fluxing in a 42 different pattern and I'm just trying to figure out what lands and what fits.  I haven't had a lot of 1 opportunity to really even invest in that or feel like I have the energy because I don't want to have to 2 educate someone on how to love me.  I think that's what has kept me kind of away from even really 3 trying to have conversations with folks who might be good healthy partners for me, that I think would 4 work with me, but I just don't feel like playing educator.  So that's just been really taxing too to just kind 5 of think through a lot of that, it just gets exhausting and I'm like, "Relationships are stupid."  And then I 6 just kind of get up on that. 7 
AJ: So you said you sort of identified as bi-, what would you call your sexual identity today? 8 
RB: I would just toss a queer word on it and just leave it at that.  I think that's just been the most fitting. 9 
AJ: What does queer mean to you? 10 
RB: Oooh, just . . . oooh, I don't know.  It means nothing and everything at the same time I feel like and I 11 think that that is why I use it.  It's kind of like I can pull the lever on the slot machine and it's going to 12 toss out some things on the slots and that's what we're going to go with today and that's going to be 13 fine.  Whatever fits and feels comfortable and I think just the general concept of queerness for both 14 gender and sexuality, for me, is just the ability to be nothing and everything at the same time.  So I 15 don't really know. 16 
AJ: OK, all right.  All right.  Yeah, that's the beauty of queer, right?  It's just whatever it is and whatever it's 17 not - sort of.  I don't know.  Has there been a specific person or organization that has had a significant 18 impact on you related to your gender identity? 19 
RB: Probably, I'm just trying to navigate through that.  I mean there is certainly folks that I've had fortune to 20 encounter during a lot of my undergrad programming and doing big conference work stuff that I never 21 thought in a million years that I'd have had the opportunity to meet.  I think even at the time, because I 22 wasn't really identifying in any way as trans then, did I realize just how miraculous those meetings 23 were.  I got to meet Janet Mock, I got to meet Laverne Cox within two years of each other.  I think it 24 was November of 2013 probably and then February of 2014, both of them.  I was just like, "What is my 25 world?  What is my life?"  And just having . . . 26 
AJ: I've just got to throw in there both of those are friends of mine, I love them both - they are amazing. 27 
RB: They're amazing.  Just this really solid, fantastic humans but . . . I think what's really fascinating about 28 how national rhetoric and conversations about trans folks is that these seem like these inaccessible 29 humans in some ways because they're so lauded because they're one of very few, which is jacked in 30 its own regard - so they feel like these really inaccessible people.  But then to literally be sitting at a 31 coffee table with Laverne or having a 15-minute conversation with Janet about media stuff . . .  32 
AJ: Right, and she'll give you some good media advice. 33 
RB: Grounding, right?  So that was really paramount for me eventually to just have the humanity of two 34 folks that have made it in a way that a lot of trans folks never feel like they can and having them in 35 Kansas City, in my hometown . . . well not hometown, but home at the time.  My home, my place.  I'm 36 like, "This should have never happened, how is this a thing?"  So having those opportunities at least, 37 right.  I think that's been really impactful. 38 
AJ: Wow.  Those two women have had a huge impact on me as well.  They are both much younger and 39 much more beautiful than I am. 40 
RB: Stop. 41 
AJ: But really amazing, they really are.  You work for an LGBT organization now, or sort of.  I mean it's a 42 university system but your particular department.  Have you ever worked for any other LGBT or trans 43 specific organizations? 44 
RB: Yes.  So when I was in Kansas, even though it was part-time, it was a similar office to what I'm doing 1 now.  It was our Center for Sexuality and Gender Diversity.  My first year of grad school was our first 2 year of having both the grad position that I was in and a full-time person.  So I was doing, again, this 3 type of work in Kansas.  I did an internship over . . . two summers ago at the University of California-4 Riverside working in their LGBT Resource Center for six weeks.  And then I currently am part of the 5 executive team for a non-profit that does Midwest Sexuality and Gender Equity work. 6 
AJ: Wow. 7 
RB: That's kind of up and coming and brand new, a part of the founding group of people, so yeah I've 8 definitely been situated and doing this type of work for a while in many places. 9 
AJ: That's awesome, that's really great.  So you've been doing it for a while, what do you think are the 10 major issues facing the broadest sort of view of trans identity?  So gender queer, people who are still 11 sort of binary and all of that stuff that's in-between. 12 
RB: For sure.  I mean I probably have a dissertation of an answer in general, but just to kind of brief it . . . 13 there is so much gatekeeping in so many ways, whether it's medical or education or access to 14 anything really at that point - like just simple things like licenses and documents.  Its just so pervasive 15 how many instances in which trans folk of any identity within that subset is not accommodated or 16 considered in literally anything. So thats pie in the sky world view, thats the starting point.  I know for 17 me, because education is the medium through which I do the work  access to higher education in 18 general especially for multiply marginalized populations, not tracking that data when we even accept 19 students into the university.  Thats what is always on my mind, it might not be necessarily probably be 20 the most immediate and most necessary, but I know that for me we cant expect to educate and uplift 21 and get folks to a place where they are even part of the game let alone on the playing field to really 22 even feel like they can be successful in what they deem to be their version of success and thats what 23 is really stressful for me is like I encounter so many people who arent going to make it through their 24 school programs.  I have so many friends that Ive lapped degree-wise because theyre just not in it 25 and they just dont feel like they fit.  We have so many folks that are getting thrown into this giant 26 machine that is higher ed and they get lost in the cogs and gears and are probably stuck somewhere 27 in the bottom of the machine.  If we just loosened the screws and took some of the plates off and 28 realized that we could probably fix that, but we dont even take stock and realize that were losing so 29 much capacity for queer and trans folks  trans folks specifically.  Were not doing . . . were really not 30 doing anything, I feel like. 31 
AJ: Do you think the visibility that folks like Laverne and Janet, Caitlyn Jenner and other sort of superstar 32 trans people has helped in some of that at all?   33 
RB: I think its a yes and.  I think its helped as far as getting folks to be aware that transness even exists, 34 right?  I think there was a lot of folks that didnt even realize that was a thing.  I probably would have 35 been one of them circa 15 years ago.  What is this?  I dont know what my reaction was but I do 36 worry and Ive had conversations in some ways too about . . . like at no fault of the people who have 37 been put in these situations of being very lauded, high profile trans folk, what that means for folks that 38 dont have the same access to certain resources, that dont go through a certain stereotypical 39 trajectory of what we think transitioning means, that there is a start and stopping point to transitioning, 40 that folks have to adhere to a certain beauty standard or aesthetic standard to be considered an 41 acceptable or appropriately passing trans person.  A lot of that nuance and complication to it because 42 of how folks have picked up the trans conversation makes it a bit complicated, I think.  So I think 43 theres folks that we can refer to and I think that thats more useful than not, to be able to say, You 44 know a trans person whether you know it or not.  Its impossible now to say, You have no idea, you 45 dont know anyone.  So I think that helps break some barriers down too.  What that conversation looks 46 like after you say, You for sure know a trans person, is still kind of a game battleship of what that 47 persons response is going to be to that.  Because I think through trainings that Ive done, specifically 48 back at Kansas with students of trying to check them on cis privilege and oh my goodness  they do 49 not appreciate it, they do not like getting told that their inability to be attracted to a trans person is 50 inherently transphobic.  They dont like being told that they hold semblances of privilege because they 1 have access to certain things  they hate it.   2 
AJ: Yeah, people dont like. 3 
RB: No they dont. 4 
AJ: What is your relationship to male privilege, white male privilege?  In some ways, at least . . . yeah, you 5 are probably perceived in the world as a white male.  How do you deal with that? 6 
RB: Well sometimes I wish the male part was more often than might be . . .  7 
AJ: And I know you dont necessarily hold that identity so . . .  8 
RB: Sure.  But, definitely as a more trans masculine person, for sure, and thats definitely a hard internal 9 conversation I have a lot and especially the male and masculine piece of that, is trying really hard to 10 pass in certain spaces so that I dont get mis-gendered as female, so I go to this level of trying to 11 masculinize in a certain way but what am I even able to base that off of?  Very cis, very white washed 12 perceptions of masculinity.  I think I was fortunate, I guess is the most accessible word I have for that, 13 during grad school that I had mentors that very much broke some notions and some barriers of toxic 14 masculinity.  We had lots of open conversations about toxic masculinity but I do know that in 15 unraveling some of that that we werent unraveling the whiteness of toxic masculinity.  And I know 16 whats been hard for the work that I do being at now my second predominantly white institution doing 17 LGBT work . . . 18 
AJ: PWI. 19 
RB: Right. 20 
AJ: I love that youre using this language.   21 
RB: Is trying to navigate how do I, in my role and in my identities, wedge myself . . . or participate rather, in 22 conversations about race and ethnicity and social justice without coopting space because I know that 23 when I enter these spaces Im leading with and being read with my whiteness by folks in the space but 24 also knowing, especially in Kansas, that we didnt have trans folks of color to speak about queerness 25 and transness in spaces where we were centering race.  So having the squirm of were not talking 26 about queer and trans folk, which we need to be, but I cant just come in here as the white person and 27 say, You need to talk about queer and trans people.  You do but trying to play the hopscotch of 28 figuring out how to expand the conversation and to allow for the intersections when I knew that there 29 was damage being done by not having that.  And so for, I guess to pull that back on me, especially in 30 the work trying to play that hopscotch perpetually of where does queerness and transness need to be 31 uplifted but not centering my whiteness when Im trying to center queerness and transness in spaces 32 that it needs to be centered.   33 
AJ: Right.  Wow, thats pretty strong analytic . . . you know, approach.  And I appreciate that, I think you 34 have to be analytical in trying to walk that space as we all carry privilege and how do we deal with it, 35 how do we think about it, how do we provide others access to that privilege  like how are we using 36 our privileges.  I think theres ways to open up spaces for others to sort of come through and do some 37 of that work.   38 
RB: Fore sure.   39 
AJ: Wow.  Tell me about those tattoos  lets see those tattoos.   40 
RB: Well, so you can see three of . . . I think I now have 13 tattoos, most of which were accrued during 41 college  both undergrad and grad, because I could do what I want then.  This one is Andrea Gibson 42 lyrics, I guess  I dont know what you would call a verse from a poem, but the Andrea Gibson lyrics 43 that says, It hurts to become.  This one is an empowerment fist with floral design in it, which just on 44 happenstance because I let the artist do what they wanted with the colors  they chose these and then 45 I had a student say, Oh, you got gender queer flag colors.  And I was like, Apparently I did, I didnt 1 know . . .  2 
AJ: So theres a gender-queer flag?   3 
RB: There is a flag and its purple, white and green.  And I knew that before I got the tattoo, I knew that 4 those were the colors of the flag but I let the artist do what they wanted.   5 
AJ: I did not know there was a gender-queer flag. 6 
RB: That was just a happenstance.  Theres flags for everything, some that I think dont need flags but they 7 exist.   8 
AJ: Ive seen Bears flags, Ive seen Cub flags . . .  9 
RB: Theres a list of lesbian flags . . .  10 
AJ: I just have to give a shout-out to the Cubs, they won the World Series last night.  Woo-woo.  Im from 11 Chicago.  Yes, so . . . I had to get it on tape.   12 
RB: Thats fine, you can have it.   13 
AJ: Oh man, its been 108 years  what can I say? 14 
RB: Thats fine, I totally get it.  I totally do.   15 
AJ: So, the feathers  what are the feathers? 16 
RB: Its part of a charm bracelet.  So the leadership academy that I was talking about that I went to 17 between undergrad and grad . . .  18 
AJ: What was it called?   19 
RB: Its the . . . its Camp Pride.  Campus Pride hosts a weeklong leadership academy over the summer.  20 Id gone the year prior . . . Ive gone twice.  I went one year as a camper and went the next year as 21 kind of a camp counselor, they call them Pride leaders.  And so me and a faculty pairing oversaw . . . 22 we spent specific time with a smaller group.  I think there was eight folks in our den and at the end of 23 the week we did a wrap-up, last den session.  By the end of the week you get really close with these 24 humans, theyre just your people and everyone else was doing an activity where they threw a yarn ball 25 around and said something that they appreciated about the other person.  Well, my faculty partner  26 had bought this huge barrel basically of all different types of beads and we all went around and gave 27 everybody in the circle a bead and explained why we chose it.  And so these are all the beads that I 28 acquired from that activity and I have it still hanging in my car, but I was overdue for a tattoo and I was 29 like, What do I want to get?  So I got this one tattooed, so each one of these is a bead that I got from 30 one of my campers. 31 
AJ: Wow, its beautiful.  All of those are really incredibly beautiful. 32 
RB: Thanks. 33 
AJ: And they all have some very special meaning to you as well, its not just Mickey Mouse or Daffy Duck, 34 although with 13 tattoos you might have one thats just kind of a throw-away tattoo. 35 
RB: I dont  no, actually.   36 
AJ: Theyre all pretty special to you, huh?  I guess when youre letting someone put a lot of ink into your 37 skin in a specific design, a permanent design, you kind of want it to have some special meaning. 38 
RB: Yes. 39 
AJ: Wow, its just been so amazing talking with you today, RB.  Is there anything that you want to say 1 about yourself, gender identity, the transgender movement  what does it mean to be at this point in 2 history in the transgender movement that I did not bring out of you?   3 
RB: I dont know.  I dont know, you asked me some doozies, you threw me through the ringer on this.  I 4 dont know, just kind of all of that just really my mind is a perpetual puddle of how hard it is.  I dont 5 know, just the past two and a half years now of just doing this work specifically I just realize that Im 6 doing it for a reason and I dont know what else I would be doing.  I cant imagine not being in higher 7 ed specifically and trying to do this work.  I know that there is so much work to be done, but then being 8 able to kind of participate in a way that has so many revolving identities kind of in it and that I actually 9 have a stake in it just kind of gives it a lot more purpose.  To be a cis straight person and trying to 10 understand and wrap my brain around and just watch from the sidelines would be boring.  I like being 11 in the thick of it and being able to say, Here I am, heres why Im invested in this, and heres why its 12 important.  So . . . yeah. 13 
AJ: Wow, thats pretty powerful.  Thank you so much for sharing with us today, RB. I really, really 14 appreciate it.  Until we meet again. 15 
RB: For sure. 16 
AJ: Peace. 17 

