   
Dee Dee Ngozi Chamblee Narrator   Andrea Jenkins Interviewer 
    
The Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies University of Minnesota 
February 7, 2017 
 
 
   

 
  
The Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story, while providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source material about the transgender community.  The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for current and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public. 
The Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300 individuals over the next three years.  Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and experiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality.  This project will be led by Andrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist.  Andrea brings years of experience working in government, non-profits and LGBT organizations.  If you are interested in being involved in this exciting project, please contact Andrea. 
Andrea Jenkins jenki120@umn.edu (612) 625-4379 
   
 
Andrea Jenkins -AJ 1 
Dee Dee Ngozi Chamblee  -DC 2 
 3 
 4 
AJ: So, hello.   5 
DC: Hello. 6 
AJ: Hello, my name is Andrea Jenkins.  I am the oral historian for the Transgender Oral History 7 Project at the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  Today is February 7, 2017.  I am 8 in Madison, Georgia, at the Auburn Seminary Sojourner Truth Leadership Circle for Black Trans 9 Women.  Its a year-long fellowship and one of the participants in this fellowship is Dee Dee 10 Chamblee.  How are you today, Dee Dee? 11 
DC: Im great to be here on this wonderful day in Madison, Georgia.   12 
AJ: Wow.   13 
DC: Yes. 14 
AJ: Madison, Georgia.  Its a small little town.   15 
DC: Yeah, small.  You dont think the towns would be as small as they are the way that gentrification 16 is happening everywhere, but its so nice to find still that there are small towns where you can 17 go back in time  the time and the pace is slower.   18 
AJ: Slow, right. 19 
DC: You get a chance to hear the trains go by and you get a chance to hear the bells when they ring. 20 
AJ: Right, when they ring.   21 
DC: Yeah. 22 
AJ: Yeah.  Its beautiful; its so peaceful here.   23 
DC: Peaceful, yeah. 24 
AJ: Its a great place for a retreat.  Dee Dee, can you just state your name and spell your name so we 25 make sure were spelling it correctly?  Tell me whats your gender as you claim it today and what 26 was your gender assigned at birth, and then what are your pronouns?  What pronouns do you 27 use? 28 
DC: My name is Dee Dee Ngozi Chamblee.  And I spell that capital D-e-e-, capital D-e-e; Ngozi is N-g-29 o-z-i; and Chamblee is C-h-a-m-b-l-e-e.  And  Ngozi means Gods blessing, its African.   30 
AJ: Gods blessing. 31 
DC: An African minister gave me that name when I did my first speech on HIV and AIDS at this 32 church in Atlanta.  He was just adamant as I spoke, he said, Youre Ngozi.  At first I thought he 33 was saying something out of the way but still said, ask him what it means.  I said, Well, what 1 does it mean?  He said, It means youre Gods blessing. 2 
AJ: Wow. 3 
DC: I received that.  When I had my name changed to my husbands last name, I picked that as a 4 middle name. 5 
AJ: You put Ngozi as a part of it.   6 
DC: Yes. 7 
AJ: So, Chamblee is not your family name? 8 
DC: No, Brown is my maiden name. 9 
AJ: All right, wow.  Are you married now? 10 
DC: Yes, 26 years. 11 
AJ: What? 12 
DC: Twenty-six; it will be 27 in September.  It just happened that his birthday and my birthday are in 13 September and our anniversary is in September. 14 
AJ: Wow, so youve got to buy a lot of gifts in September. 15 
DC: We just do one big one together. 16 
AJ: OK, right.   17 
DC: We have our party together and everything, we just have one big party. 18 
AJ: Thats sweet.  So, I stopped you from answering all the questions, but Im glad you told me 19 Gods blessing.  But, how do you identify today?  Whats your identity? 20 
DC: I identify as a trans woman, a Black trans woman  as you can see. 21 
AJ: Yes. 22 
DC: I consider myself a leader, my pronouns are she/her/hers, Miss and Maam.   23 
AJ: Maam  I love that.  What was your gender identity assigned at birth? 24 
DC: My gender identity assigned at birth was male, but there was nothing I ever felt associated with 25 my assigned gender, my assigned sex. 26 
AJ: Really? 27 
DC: I just never related to that part of my body as a male.  28 
AJ: Wow. 29 
DC: Never.  I naturally would cover my breasts and stuff, like I had breasts.  It came natural to me to 30 do that and I would never take showers with the boys. 31 
AJ: With the boys. 1 
DC: I couldnt do that, I would never do that  ever.   2 
AJ: So, you had a strong sense of your feminine identity at a very early age  how early would you 3 say? 4 
DC: Six, I remember my first love kissed me in the bathroom  a big old wet juicy kiss.   5 
AJ: Wow. 6 
DC: And I was just . . . he made me feel that right there, I just saw stars when he kissed me.  We 7 actually stayed across the street from the elementary school, but one day I didnt have clothes 8 to wear and my babysitter had washed my clothes and they were all wet, all of them were wet.  9 So, the only thing in the house was a green corduroy dress and she put that dress on me and I 10 lived.   11 
AJ: Really? 12 
DC: Just by putting that corduroy dress on me I danced, I played, I just felt this is what Im supposed 13 to have.  So, I couldnt wait until my mama got home to show her.  When she pulled up in the 14 driveway I just ran out there.  When she opened the door and I saw her eyes, I swore I saw 15 thunder bolts and smoke . . .  16 
AJ: Really? 17 
DC:  . . . coming out.   18 
AJ: You are the best. 19 
DC: I said, Oh, my gosh, what is wrong?  What is going on?  20 
AJ: What have I done? 21 
DC: She goes, You get in there and take that dress off, youre going to wish you . . .  I said, I have 22 no more clothes to wear.  You go find something but not that dress. 23 
AJ: Really? 24 
DC: That was so traumatic to me, you know, because I was just six years old.  It was so traumatic  I 25 never had seen her that angry before even though she was mean.  But, I never had seen her that 26 mad. 27 
AJ: That mad, wow.  So, what happened?  Im sure you took the dress off, but . . .  28 
DC: Yeah, I took the dress off and she put me on a big t-shirt, one of my daddys t-shirts  she gave it 29 to me to put it on, but it was never spoken of, she didnt say anything to my father about it.  It 30 was just nothing . . .  31 
AJ: Did you wear it to school?  32 
DC: No.   33 
AJ: Oh, OK. 1 
DC: Oh, no  no.  2 
AJ: OK. 3 
DC: I stayed in a little country town like where we are now, so no . . . we was not going to do that. 4 
AJ: Where was this?  Where were you born? 5 
DC: I was born in Rockdale County. 6 
AJ: Rock . . .? 7 
DC: Rockdale. 8 
AJ: Rockdale County. OK.  And thats in Georgia? 9 
DC: Yeah. 10 
AJ: Yeah, and thats where you grew up? 11 
DC: Thats where I grew up.  I mostly stayed with my grandmother, she was really . . . Im very close 12 to her.  My mother was in an abusive relationship with my father, that was traumatic to me and 13 my sisters.  I have two younger sisters. 14 
AJ: Two younger sisters. 15 
DC: Im the oldest, yeah.  As I grew up, I had a little Easter basket and I would . . . on my dads side, 16 he had 10 brothers and they were all fixing cars, they were drag racing, my daddy had all kinds 17 of drag racing trophies and stuff, but I was not interested in none of that.   18 
AJ: None of that. 19 
DC: I had an Easter basket that I carried around. 20 
AJ: Like your little purse, huh?  When it wasnt Easter. 21 
DC: When it wasnt Easter.  And I heard one of my uncles talking to my daddy one day while they 22 were working on the car, and he said, Brown, your son acts peculiar.  I said, What does that 23 word mean?  Peculiar . . . I think I know what it means but I never had heard it before.  He said, 24 Oh, shut up, thats all right, dont pay him no attention.  Like that.  My daddy didnt . . . he 25 never did take it too seriously as my mama did.  He laughed it off, he laughed it off.  He took 26 really more time with my younger sister because she was more tomboyish and she was the one 27 that always got in trouble.  I was always the good one in school; mama used to always have to 28 come and get her but I was always the good one in school.   29 
AJ: Wow.  So, your sister grew up as a tomboy.  Did you think she had issues around gender or 30 anything or just was a rough, tough little girl? 31 
DC: No, she just had a lot of my daddys ways. 32 
AJ: Right. 33 
DC: Towards gambling and . . . hustling and stuff like that, she just had that. 1 
AJ: Right.  So, you grew up with your mom and your dad? 2 
DC: Yes. 3 
AJ: Even though you said your dad was abusive.   4 
DC: Yeah. 5 
AJ: But, he was in the household all the time? 6 
DC: No, he was in and out of prison.  He was in and out of prison.  He was in prison when . . . whats 7 his name?  Burt Reynolds made the movie The Longest Yard. 8 
AJ: The Longest Yard, yeah. 9 
DC: Yes, and all my girlfriends were in that.   10 
AJ: Really? 11 
DC: The raised me  yes.   12 
AJ: The scene when they all came out with the little shirts tied up? 13 
DC: Yes, yes  Miss Lulu and Miss Cruz and Miss Cookie.  They were all in there. 14 
AJ: So, they werent just actors playing a role, they were . . . 15 
DC: They were real . . . 16 
AJ: They were real prisoners and they were really gender non-conforming or transgender. 17 
DC: They was in full dress . . . 18 
AJ: Full regalia as the girls says. 19 
DC: Full regalia and had husbands.   20 
AJ: And had husbands in jail.  Wow.  Wow  thats fascinating, I thought they were all actors in that 21 prison scene . . . or the whole movie was in prison, but . . . 22 
DC: Yeah, it was at Reidsville prison here in Georgia  Reidsville State Prison.   23 
AJ: Wow.   24 
DC: And he stayed in and out of that prison a lot of times.  My mother loved him dearly but she 25 finally left him the last time he came out  she left him.  I told him who I was and he said, Well, 26 just as long as you stay out of trouble, whatever you do is all right with me.  He had that kind of 27 attitude. 28 
AJ: Attitude, huh?  Well, he probably knew a lot of the girls in jail. 29 
DC: He probably did.  I would say because he was a whore . . . he was a whore. 30 
AJ: Youre just keeping it real. 1 
DC: Im just keeping it real. 2 
AJ: I know thats right.  This interview is not about me but my father was in penitentiary for about 3 15 years of my life too. 4 
DC: Wow. 5 
AJ: Yeah, I definitely can understand.  So, you were running around with your Easter basket for your 6 purse.  What was the kids in the neighborhood saying?  Did they bully you?  Did they try to beat 7 you up?  Did they mess with you?   8 
DC: No.  It was another gay person that stayed across the street from my grandmother and she 9 would do all the go-go dances and all the boys used to love to see her tremble  she just kept 10 the porch full of boys. 11 
AJ: Really?   12 
DC: And so, you know, we would all get on the heels and get in those big refrigerator boxes and roll 13 down the hills  the boys would do all the hunching while we were . . . so, it was kind of fun.  14 They didnt ask us . . . her older brother was gay too and out, so no during that time there 15 wasnt . . . we was part of the community. 16 
AJ: Right. 17 
DC: We was part of the community and people knew and let it be. 18 
AJ: Just let it be. 19 
DC: Live and let live.  It was fine. 20 
AJ: And at school, no problems? 21 
DC: No, I didnt have any problems at school.  I liked school but I left from that school during the 22 integration, when they started integration. 23 
AJ: Bussing, yes. 24 
DC: I left from that school and I came to Atlanta because Rockdale was like 30 minutes from Atlanta 25 . . . about 45 minutes.  Anyway, we moved there and I got into a white school  it was mostly 26 white, like 1000 whites to 200 Blacks thats what the ratio was.  It was a good school.  I had to 27 fight . . . I learned that if I kept winning my fights, that the boys loved it.   28 
AJ: Oh, really? 29 
DC: Yes, they would love it.  And I kept winning  every time I won they would do a 4 and 0; 5 and 0; 30 6 and 0.  So, I fought and fought until, I think, 10th grade.  Yeah, I had to fight from that time up 31 until the 10th grade and then they stopped messing with me.  By that time, I had put a perm in 32 my hair, I was wearing tank tops that stopped right here . . . 33 
AJ: Oh, wow  like little belly shirts. 34 
DC: Yeah, and little tight jeans and stuff like that. 1 
AJ: Really?   2 
DC: So, that was radical.   3 
AJ: Yes. 4 
DC: When you put a perm in your hair and . . . 5 
AJ: This was in the 1970s.   6 
DC: Yes, and then I started wearing boots and so that was radical too.  That was something in New 7 York that they did, all that high fashion stuff like that. 8 
AJ: You were giving them just straight femme. 9 
DC: Yeah, straight femme.  And, I didnt know, at the time, that there were also people . . . well, I 10 knew that across the street was the college from my high school and there was like four or five 11 girls over there and . . . 12 
AJ: Which college? 13 
DC: It was called . . . it was DeKalb College.  DeKalb College.  And, we would go over there, I had one 14 other little gay friend at school that we did the library, we worked the library.  So, we would go 15 over there and they would do all kind of plays and stuff.  They would dress up and everything  16 and let us dress up.  So, we would hang out with them just like every day. 17 
AJ: Oh, wow. 18 
DC: And then one day, one of them was talking about the Army, the draft was coming up for the 19 Army, so they went and registered and they got in and got deployed, even the most feminine 20 one did.  And, so they left.  So, after that  well, before they left, one of them told me that, You 21 know, theyve got a club downtown called The Onyx. 22 
AJ: The Onyx? 23 
DC: The Onyx Lounge, yes.  And, she said, they go in drag every day and they have shows, and I was 24 just so fascinated.  I just couldnt believe that they would actually come out in daytime too like 25 that.  She said, Yeah.  So, I went . . . I couldnt wait.  I went down there with my little hot butt 26 and I met Lady Chablis.  27 
AJ: Really? 28 
DC: She was the first one who pushed me out on stage. 29 
AJ: Lady Chablis from Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil? 30 
DC: Lady Chablis. 31 
AJ: Savannah, Georgia.  She just passed away last year. 32 
DC: Yeah. 33 
AJ: Rest in peace, dear sister.   1 
DC: Yes, she did.   2 
AJ: Wow.  That was your mama? 3 
DC: Yeah.   4 
AJ: Oh, my goodness.  What was she like?   5 
DC: She was like she is on stage. 6 
AJ: Right. 7 
DC: Shes just real just like that.  Sharp tongue, she was the first one who pushed me  I didnt want 8 to go, I was so nervous to go out.  They would have amateur night and she would . . . You go 9 get out there.  If you dont . . . youre going to get out there.  Youre Miss Summers  now, Miss 10 Summers, hit it.  My song was Last Dance and I went out and I did it and I got $2.00.   11 
AJ: $2.00. 12 
DC: $2.00.  I said, I dont think this is going to be working for me.   13 
AJ: You said, This is really my last dance.  OK.   14 
DC: Oh, Lord.  Yeah, but she was so much fun.  And, I really enjoyed her.  I did get a chance to see 15 her like two years ago and just let her know how much I love her and stuff. 16 
AJ: Nice, good.  So, you had a chance to kind of be with her for a minute or talk to her at least 17 before she passed on. 18 
DC: Yeah, before she died.  And, I always will have that movie, Midnight in the Garden of Good and 19 Evil, to see if I want to get a taste of mama at her greatest.   20 
AJ: Yes, I know  right.  See.   21 
DC: Yes. 22 
AJ: And that was a real story, right?   23 
DC: I think it was partly . . . mostly it was based on a true story. 24 
AJ: Right, it was based on a true story.  But, I mean, the Lady Chablis part was real. 25 
DC: Yeah, it was real. 26 
AJ: Like she definitely performed in Savannah all the time. 27 
DC: Oh, yes. 28 
AJ: Did she have an affair with the . . .?  That was the secret in the garden. 29 
DC: That was the secret in the garden. 30 
AJ: OK, all right.  Were going to keep that a secret. 31 
DC: OK.   1 
AJ: Wow.  So, you . . . it seems to me, I mean based on what youre telling me, like there was never 2 really a time that you tried to hide your identity, you just couldnt fully express your identity?   3 
DC: Right.  I couldnt hide it.  I had a high ass and a big one.  My first name was Miss Bunzella.   4 
AJ: Miss Bunzella. 5 
DC: Miss Bunz, the girl with the buns.  There was no way I could hide it.  When I walked across the 6 room, everybody knew.  So, I would try to keep still, especially around my mama and around my 7 family and stuff.  I just wouldnt move, I wouldnt play or nothing because it was just so obvious.  8 I didnt want to bring attention to me because I know my mama just would . . . my mama was 9 mean, she walked in the room and everything stood still.   10 
AJ: Right.  People would just stop talking.   11 
DC: You did not play with Missouri. 12 
AJ: OK. 13 
DC: And my cousins would call her Souri.   14 
AJ: Souri.   15 
DC: Aunt Souri.  Oh, Lord, everybody would go running. 16 
AJ: Was that her name though?  Missouri?   17 
DC: Missouri was her name  is her name. 18 
AJ: OK, like the state? 19 
DC: Yes. 20 
AJ: How do you guys get along now?  When you came out she was so totally against it. 21 
DC: Totally.  I was wearing her shoes because I have big feet and she had big feet, so I was wearing 22 her shoes. And, I was wearing my sisters dresses. 23 
AJ: OK. 24 
DC: Friday night I would be out on Martin Luther King and that was . . . that was the grand thing 25 then, being on Martin Luther King and the Marquette Lounge  it was world known, world-wide 26 known.   27 
AJ: Yes. 28 
DC: So, yeah.  I would get into trouble about those shoes because Id beat them down so that they 29 looked like banana peels. 30 
AJ: Oh, wow  just curled up. 31 
DC: And I put them back in the shoe box and . . . she would pull one out and it would be on.  And I 1 thought, Oh, Lord, she done seen them shoes. 2 
AJ: This child has been in my shoes again. 3 
DC: Yes.  She hated it, she hated it.  And my daddy, he would laugh.   4 
AJ: Really? 5 
DC: He would laugh  he would laugh.  It was funny to him. 6 
AJ: Oh, wow.   7 
DC: So, after I got into The Onyx and that whole scene, I didnt finish school . . . I didnt graduate 8 with my graduating class. 9 
AJ: OK. 10 
DC: And I didnt tell my mama that I wasnt going to school.  I told her I was graduating early. 11 
AJ: Oh, wow.  So, you were still staying at home but you werent going to school. 12 
DC: Yeah, I didnt go to school.  I went to Job Corps.  I told her, Im going to Job Corps and theyre 13 going to send me my certificate from the school.  My plan was to go to Job Corps and get my 14 GED so I could at least say I completed something.  So, when we got to Job Corps, it was brand 15 new and they didnt have too much structure.  We kind of had our way and there was some 16 more girls there and we all had our own dorms that we reigned over.  We was the resident 17 advisors. 18 
AJ: You must have been one of the first classes or something, huh?  You said it was brand new. 19 
DC: Yeah, we were one of the first classes.  So, we had . . . on each floor they had meetings and they 20 had officers and they had the people that ran the groups, because you had to go into group 21 meetings at night.  Wed be in there, but I had on rollers and our nightgowns and stuff. 22 
AJ: What? 23 
DC: All up and . . . it was . . . and they just loved it, they loved it. 24 
AJ: Right here in Georgia. 25 
DC: Yeah, right here in Georgia. 26 
AJ: Because you think about the Deep South where you just think homophobia, transphobia, racism 27  but you guys were . . .  28 
DC: But during that time it wasnt.   29 
AJ: You all were just doing your thing, huh?   30 
DC: Doing our thing and we were . . . 31 
AJ: Girls just want to have fun. 32 
DC: Fun.  We would go Riff, the House of Riff, that was one of the hole in the wall clubs where 1 everybody went to . . . when you drive up in there, theyd be throwing people out the double 2 doors  they had those . . . 3 
AJ: Right, the double doors. 4 
DC: Just like in the Wild West and there would be so-and-so inside the double doors and there was a 5 big old mud hole in the middle of the road when you got there.  So, we would go down there 6 because a lot of the military men went there.  So, we were talking to these two military guys one 7 night and they wanted to go to the hotel and stuff.  We went to the hotel and my girlfriend was 8 with the younger one and I was with the older guy, and he had a broken leg and had a cast on 9 that.  So, me and him talked  we talked about the money, what we were going to do, and the 10 other guy was just all . . . he was just all ready, she couldnt control his hands. 11 
AJ: OK, he was just hot. 12 
DC: He went down and pulled something out and he just lost it  he just . . . it just blew his mind, he 13 just fell against the wall, acted like he was having a heart attack and everything. 14 
AJ: Oh, my goodness. 15 
DC: He just ran out the door. 16 
AJ: Oh, wow  well, he didnt try to beat you all up or nothing. 17 
DC: He ran out of the room and left the other guy.  And what we did with him, we tied him up  18 because he had a broken leg  we tied him up and we stole the car and went joy riding. We got 19 back to the center that morning, because we had got money from them and everything, and we 20 were going to town shopping and everything.  We were just laid out on the grass, just waiting 21 for the stores to open.  And, all of a sudden, a black and white police car rides down through the 22 center.  I thought, Oh, I think maybe we should go in.  So, we went in and we went to go in 23 and we saw the people, the policemen, go down the stairs, so we ran and jumped in the bed 24 and pulled the covers up over us. 25 
AJ: Right, like youd all been asleep. 26 
DC: Yes.  But they came and said, The officers want to speak to you guys downstairs.  We went 27 downstairs and they said, Yeah, we just want to take you down to the precinct to ask you a few 28 questions.  And when we got down there, they throwed us in a cell with 50 . . . maybe it was 29 60, hard-up country men and we still had our drag clothes on.   30 
AJ: Drag clothes on, yeah. 31 
DC: Yeah, and they throwed us in there and when we saw what was up we tried to run, they 32 slammed the doors.  I thought, Oh, my God, what are we going to do?  What are we going to 33 do?  And so, as we were going down the hall and all the cells are on this side and the men are 34 all up here and theyre all grabbing our clothes and feeling all along us and were just walking 35 down this . . . 36 
AJ: Right, this little hallway. 37 
DC: Yes.  And we get to the big room and I said, Miss Princess, I saw on TV that we need to find the 1 one thats running this  somebody in here is running it.  So I said, Whos running the jail?  2 They said, The Dog.  I said, Oh, Lord -  his name is Dog.  I said, Where is he at?  They went 3 and got him and he said, Yeah, girls, come on in here  in my cell, Im going to protect you all 4 because you all know whats going to happen with all these men out here running around.  He 5 had to put ropes up because they were still trying to come in his cell. 6 
AJ: Wow. 7 
DC: And me and Princess, my girlfriend  I call her Princess, me and her was huddled up under the 8 bunk like this just looking . . . I said, Well, when the lights go out, you know were going to have 9 to take care of the eight in here, there was eight in there, Rather than take care of . . . 10 
AJ: Rather than 50.  OK. Oh, wow.   11 
DC: So, we was dreading when those lights went out.  And when they did, the action was on. 12 
AJ: The party started, huh? 13 
DC: It started  and then here come the guards.  They knew this was going on  what was going on.   14 
AJ: Right. 15 
DC: Here they come shining the light.  Oh, I see what youre all doing.  Come on out.  Drug us out, 16 me and Princess, and throwed us in the hole and that was nothing but brick walls and a hole in 17 the floor where you urinate and defecate in. 18 
AJ: Oh, my goodness. 19 
DC: In the middle of the floor  and rats were trying to come up through that.  So, we had to throw a 20 mattress  they had a little thin mattress in there, over that so they wouldnt come up through 21 there.  So, we were in there that weekend and one of the guys that was running around cleaning 22 the floors and stuff, he said, You know, yall need to go to the chief because the chief is a little . 23 . .  I said, Really?  So, when the food came . . . 24 
AJ: So, when you say, a little, you mean he had a little funny . . . got a little sugar in his tank.   25 
DC: Yall need to talk to the chief, because the chief didnt know we were there.  So, when they 26 came to feed us, we ran out.  We didnt know where the chiefs door was but I called out and I 27 ran down the hallway and I found his office and I ran up in there and I said, Chief, youve got to 28 save us.  They put us in the cell and the men raped us and then they got us down in the hole.  29 He said, What yall girls doing up in here?  Just like that  he was so down to earth.  He said, 30 Cmon, well get you all out of here.  So, he put us in a real nice cell where it was real nice and 31 stuff, he put us in there and we could find this man in there and he was taking care of us and 32 buying everything that we wanted, we were doing real good  until the boys from the cell got 33 locked up one night and they started calling our names in the jail.  It was on the news that two 34 women had robbed the Navy men, they had it on the news and they knew we was in jail and 35 they were trying to find out where we were when they got in there.  So, the guy that had been 36 taking care of us, they had jumped on him and he had found that if anybody from the cell came 37 in there, he was going to cut them, he was going to get them.  So, when the boys started calling 38 our names, he said, Why they calling yall names?  Yall down at the Center?  And me and 1 Princess looked at each other and we were, No, I dont know who theyre talking about.  So, 2 he didnt say another word, he just went and started getting his shank together and sharpening 3 it and everything.  So, when the food came, you know what we did?  We ran. 4 
AJ: Yall ran out of there. 5 
DC: We ran, got out of there.  What am I going to do with yall? I cant put you nowhere.  So, he 6 ended up putting us with the mental health patients and they had Thorazine so we would take 7 their Thorazine just to be knocked out for two or three days.  Its miserable up in there, up in 8 that county jail.  Yeah, it was miserable.  That was when I first went to prison, went to jail and 9 prison at the same time. 10 
AJ: Because you guys robbed some Navy guys. 11 
DC: Yeah, so when we went to court, and the judge - his name was Asa D. Kelly  I never forget it.  12 Asa D. Kelly.  He was flipping folks coins and thats what their time was.   13 
AJ: Really? 14 
DC: Quarters and nickels.   15 
AJ: 5-25. 16 
DC: He was flipping, whatever he flipped thats what their time was.   17 
AJ: What? 18 
DC: Everybody was terrified of him  the whole jail. 19 
AJ: And he didnt have no pennies, huh? 20 
DC: He saw us  we had perms in our hair, still had eyelash and make-up stuff on.  He looked at us 21 and said, We dont tolerate this kind of conduct in Albany, Georgia  six months.  We went to 22 Alto, went to Jackson and then to Alto, Georgia with the young prisoners.  They was rough up 23 there too, it was rough.  When we got in the jail after they transported us there, they were 24 saying, If you sign this paper saying that youre a homosexual, you wont have to go to the 25 dorm, you wont have to go in the dorm.  But, we were saying we wanted to be in the dorm.   26 
AJ: Right. 27 
DC: Were not going to sign no papers.   28 
AJ: It was OK. 29 
DC: Well be all right. 30 
AJ: Well be all right, honey. 31 
DC: But as soon as we said that, here comes this little red girl running across the yard into the 32 building buck naked saying, Let me sign the paper, Im gay.  And so, when we saw that, we 33 said, Give us the paper too.   34 
AJ: OK  my goodness. 1 
DC: We wanted a man but we didnt want that many. 2 
AJ: Not that bad.  Oh, Miss Dee Dee.  So, that was your first time in jail.  Have you been in jail since 3 then?  4 
DC: Well, after that  yeah.  Because I still had to go through that where I was still surviving.  When I 5 got out of jail I couldnt stay at home and be myself.  My mother had two homes by then so she 6 couldnt understand, I was staying in shacks and renting rooms and shotgun houses and stuff 7 like that.  She couldnt understand why I didnt want to stay at home.  I said, Mama, you just 8 dont know, Im so happy where Im at even though its a dump.  I still am able to be me and Im 9 just happy with that.  You can have your little house, that dont serve me nothing.  I want to be 10 where I can be happy.  Its taken her over the years little by little because I kept praying that 11 God would heal her heart, change her heart.  I wrote her a letter because it all came back on me 12 when Precious came out and the way that Precious mama . . .  13 
AJ: The movie Precious.   14 
DC: Yeah, the Precious mama, Monique . .. 15 
AJ: Monique, yes. 16 
DC: Monique, the way she . . . that triggered something in me about my past. 17 
AJ: She was a mean lady.   18 
DC: Yeah.  I cried, I cried.  I walked all the way home and I cried.  And, I went home and I wrote a 19 letter because I wanted her to see it in black and white so that she can remember this:  From 20 this day on, I claim all my power back from you.  You have no more power over me and this is 21 who I am and this is my husband and if youre going to accept me, youre going to accept him 22 too.  If it aint that way, then I dont have to have you in my life.  I said, Because the people 23 that are in my life now, they chose to love me and you feel like you have to love me because Im 24 your child, but you aint loving me. 25 
AJ: Right.   26 
DC: So, I gave her that letter and sent it off, she got it in the mail.  There was a period of time where 27 we didnt talk and then my sister called me and invited me to Thanksgiving dinner and I said, 28 Well, you know, Im bringing my husband.  She said, Well, this is my house, you can bring 29 him.  Mama dont run nothing over him.  So, I took him, we went and we took gifts and 30 everything.  Me and my sister were going through all the gifts and stuff and I forgot I had left my 31 husband in the dining room with my mama by himself.  I said, Oh, Lord, she is going to devour 32 him.  I was so afraid and I went in there and I said, You all right?  Yeah.  When mama left 33 and went out of the room, he said, I saw a tear come in her eye.  I said, My mama?  He said, 34 Yeah, I saw a tear come in her eye while she was talking to me.  He said, We was talking and 35 a tear came in her eye.  I didnt believe that.  So, from then on when I would call her, she would 36 always ask, How is Ronnie doing?   37 
AJ: Ronnie? 38 
DC: Yeah, thats my husband.  Hows Ronnie doing?  I say, Hes doing all right.  Who is this Im 1 talking to?  Who is this woman?   2 
AJ: Wow. 3 
DC: And now, shes crazy about him because through the hospital theres things I had to go through 4 in ICU and how he handled things.  He had control totally over me at the hospital and that really 5 set a precedent with power for her because she wanted to do all of it, but they told her, Well, 6 whatever Mr. Chamblee says goes.   7 
AJ: Right. 8 
DC: And who can come in and out of that room. 9 
AJ: Why were you in the hospital, dear?   10 
DC: I had come up with some rare thing . . . from some of the side effects of the medication I have 11 been taking for HIV.   12 
AJ: So youre HIV positive? 13 
DC: Yeah, Ive been HIV positive for 30 years. 14 
AJ: Is that right? 15 
DC: And my husband is HIV negative.   16 
AJ: Wow.   17 
DC: Its amazing, hes a miracle.  I dont know how that happened because his first two wives died of 18 HIV, of AIDS. 19 
AJ: Wow. 20 
DC: Yeah, his first two.  So, its kind of like we were just thinking well, you know . . . 21 
AJ: Most likely hes going to get it or . . .  22 
DC: Or you already have it, and I knew I already had it.  So, we never did even . . .  23 
AJ: Do you all use condoms and protection and stuff? 24 
DC: Not at first, not at first.  But he didnt even accept it or receive it, we didnt talk about it.  So, I 25 think hes one of those rare people that have this gene that theyre talking about . . .  26 
AJ: Yes, some people just . . . 27 
DC: They just dont get it.  And then by me always being the receptor and hes never that way . . . 28 yeah, so.  Yeah, so she now . . . she used to wouldnt even come in the house, but last year she 29 came to my house and came in.   30 
AJ: So, your mother is still alive.   31 
DC: Shes still alive, my father is dead.  But, my mother is still alive and shes still growing. 32 
AJ: And your sisters, they love you  theyre good too. 1 
DC: Yeah, theyre good.  They love me, they help me out at LaGender, they fix the food for me and 2 for the group and stuff and do little things I ask them to do  little parties and stuff like that.  3 They help me run the office. 4 
AJ: So, tell me about LaGender.  This is an organization you started . . .? 5 
DC: In 2001. 6 
AJ: In 2001, and its to support transgender women? 7 
DC: Yes, it was a voice for Black trans women because it was the Black trans women that had an 8 eviction rate of almost 85%. 9 
AJ: We was catching hell. 10 
DC: Yes, and we were dying by the droves and they were saying that we didnt exist and that theres 11 no data to substantiate that you even exist.  So, I had to create LaGender before they would 12 even listen to me.  That was not my intent in the beginning; my intent was to only get the 13 shelter situation fixed.  When I found out that trans people werent being allowed in the 14 homeless shelter, thats what really got me going.  So, the next thing I know Im building an 15 organization  I had to build an organization in order for them to even talk to me.  And then I 16 just had to get out there and I was just beating the pavement everyday  doing classes at the 17 colleges.  I carry my office on my back.   18 
AJ: Right. 19 
DC: Every day it was a fight of educating people one by one  agencies one by one.  Getting them 20 ready, going to the white council meetings, do all the . . . go to those meetings I dont want to go 21 to at 8:30 in the morning and they know that we are not going to be there. 22 
AJ: Right, so thats why they . . . but youve got to show up.   23 
DC: Yes, youve got to show up. 24 
AJ: Youve got to be at the table. 25 
DC: Youve got to be at the table.  They kept saying, Well, where are they?  I said, Listen, Im 26 doing my part, Im doing these trainings and stuff for free  to anybody and everybody that 27 wants it.  I said, Because Im not going to bring them up in here and you disrespect them, 28 because its crucial that that first line of contact be a good one, and thats that front desk.   29 
AJ: Right. 30 
DC: Thats where the mess usually starts, so thats why I would get them together and tell them, 31 No, they aint coming up in here and let you disrespect them.  Theyre not really coming up 32 here so you can ridicule them and come out and mis-gender them. 33 
AJ: Right.   34 
DC: But theyre not coming up in here like that, youve got to be trained first.  So, I ended up training 1 the everybody on white counsel, I ended up training the Georgia Planning Counsel, and then 2 finally Georgia State decided to do a needs assessment because the Department of Human 3 Resources, they did not want that to happen.  They kept putting it off, they did not want to get 4 us out of that category of men to have sex with. 5 
AJ: MSM  men that have sex with men.   6 
DC: And, you remember the confrontation in 2004. 7 
AJ: At the CDC, right?  The Center for Disease Control, yes.  Thats where we first met in 2004. 8 
DC: Thats where we first met  2004, thats when that was.  So, they decided to do a needs . . . well, 9 we got the first data from Kennesaw State.  I knew people at Kennesaw State that had been 10 working with me doing focus groups, trans focus groups and stuff for their students. 11 
AJ: Right. 12 
DC: So, Dr. Akers with them, he was working with me, you know, and we had a close relationship.  13 So, when the state hired them to do a needs assessment for the whole state of Georgia, but 14 dont include trans people in it. 15 
AJ: They specifically said dont include them. 16 
DC: Specifically dont. 17 
AJ: Even though were dying at higher rates than the general population. 18 
DC: We dont want you to go capture that data.  I could not believe that.  So, as time went on and 19 they did the needs assessment, and it came time for the big planning council meeting to see the 20 results from the needs assessment, during the presentation Dr. Akers gets up and he says, Oh, 21 Miss Dee Dee, Ive got something for you.  And, he pulls out the map and the data for the trans 22 population in Georgia. 23 
AJ: For the whole state.   24 
DC: For the whole state.  They were livid.  They were so nasty to Kennesaw because it was all 25 politics.  Thats why they had me running around in circles, they did not want this data really to 26 be captured.  They wanted to keep us in the population of men having sex with men.  Thats the 27 political stuff that I couldnt see and Im wondering why Im not progressing.   28 
AJ: Yeah. 29 
DC: And it was because of that.  So, after that, everything just fell off, they just shut down, they re-30 organized the whole council and did all kind of stuff for the . . . Georgia State did a needs 31 assessment two years after that.  They had brought their students to my office, we had an office 32 downtown then  they brought their students and the students were wonderful, and they 33 captured that data and then gave it to the CDC.  Now, you cant say we dont exist.  But still, to 34 this day, theyre asking the same questions that they asked us in 2004. 35 
AJ: Twenty years ago, yeah.   36 
DC: Yeah.  The only thing Ive seen progress about CDC is the earlier part of last year, I assisted them 1 in doing trans interviews and collecting trans data at my office and it was great.  They held 2 sessions, they asked the right questions, so Im expecting for that data to come . . . 3 
AJ: To come soon and its going to . . . 4 
DC: Its going to help. 5 
AJ: Provide some benefits, you think. 6 
DC: Yeah, because theres a lot of internal stuff going on because all the departments werent 7 talking to each other when it came to trans data and stuff. 8 
AJ: Right. 9 
DC: So, now that they have a roundtable group that can do that just for trans data and stuff now, we 10 should see . . . even at the Grady Hospital, a major hospital for poor people  its a city hospital, 11 theyre fixing to open up a transgender clinic. 12 
AJ: Really?   13 
DC: Yes. 14 
AJ: Wow.  Dee Dee, you have laid the groundwork and the foundation for some major stuff in the 15 city of Atlanta.  I know one project you guys were working on when they were trying to arrest all 16 the girls just for having a condom in their pocket or . . . 17 
DC: Just for walking down the street. 18 
AJ: Just for walking down the street. 19 
DC: Walking down the street Black and trans, youre going to jail.  They make up the charge on the 20 way  on the way, they find the charge they really want to work.  They have like over 30 21 ordinances that they use to entrap and lock people up for.  And, the area where they really were 22 targeting this ordinance, its a gay area  its very affluent. 23 
AJ: Around Midtown, right? 24 
DC: Yes, very affluent. 25 
AJ: So, the gay people were trying to get rid of the trans girls? 26 
DC: No, it was the straight people that lived down there, because they have moved into . . . they 27 have taken over.   28 
AJ: Oh, really.  So, it used to be a gay area and now its . . .? 29 
DC: Its still a gay area, but its that they had gentrified it. But, its still a high population gay area. 30 
AJ: OK.   31 
DC: But its those neighborhood associations that are over there that have that money, those 1 businesses and stuff around there.  They were the ones that pushed this ordinance, and it would 2 have went all the way through to banish all the sex workers from Atlanta. 3 
AJ: From Atlanta  the whole city. 4 
DC: The whole city  from the whole city. 5 
AJ: But you guys stopped it, you built a coalition. 6 
DC: We built a coalition and the . . .  7 
AJ: Who else did you work with?   8 
DC: Solutions Not Punishment Coalition.  It was formed at that time and it consisted of LaGender, 9 Trans(forming), Racial Justice Action Center, and Women on the Rise.  So, it was four anchor 10 organizations and then we have 300 individual and social justice member organizations that 11 come together as a coalition.  The coalition decided to keep trans led at the front, even when 12 other issues come up  like what just came up with the immigration and that stuff and you know 13 how it pulls our imagery . . .  14 
AJ: Imagery to different areas, yes. 15 
DC: That will not happen, we will not get thrown under the bus again, that we make sure that we are 16 always kept at the topic because the philosophy of the coalition is that if you start at the 17 bottom, that frees everybody from there up  and were at the bottom.  We just had to come to 18 this crucial decision that if they were going to . . . if the coalition was going to stay on this 19 principle, and they know how I am, we had the Womens Movement and everything going on 20 with that.  21 
AJ: The March?   22 
DC: The Womens March, so thats a lot of stuff going on around that, and then it was like, What 23 are we going to do about joining them?  Or, What are we going to do about the ban?  And 24 the people at Standing Rock?  And all these, which we support dearly, but we knew what our 25 core principles were going to be and we werent going to be dragged off and our power 26 depleted.   27 
AJ: Right. 28 
DC: But, we would give them our support in a letter or something like that.   29 
AJ: Sure. 30 
DC: And then, one of our people had went to the Womens March that was here in Atlanta, and she 31 said that what she saw, all the people that were there  they were there for the Womens 32 March and for what they believed in, but she said that none of those people would show up for 33 a rally or march if it was about trans people. 34 
AJ: Right. 35 
DC: Now, would they have let us in? 1 
AJ: If we have a march its just going to be us.   2 
DC: None of those people are going to be there.   3 
AJ: Right. 4 
DC: So, I said, Yeah, this is what we should do then.  Lets send them a letter of support and thats 5 it.  Thats it. 6 
AJ: Yes. 7 
DC: And not deplete our power because weve got a lot going on here.  Were training a whole new 8 force of police officers. 9 
AJ: Oh, wow.   10 
DC: And we did a wonderful training three weeks ago, and it was around actual scenarios.  When a 11 call comes in and theres a domestic violence charge, and usually if we are in a fight with 12 boyfriends or whatever, we call and we usually dont want to go to jail.  So, that was a scenario.  13 I was playing Aunt Mae, the old lady in the hood.   14 
AJ: Aunt Mae you said? 15 
DC: Aunt Mae.  And so, the children got to fighting in my house so I called the police.  The police 16 come and the supervisor and everybody is great in their pronouns, on how they . . . 17 
AJ: Oh, so this was a simulation? 18 
DC: Yes, yes. 19 
AJ: OK, wow. 20 
DC: Yes, and you know the girls put on. 21 
AJ: They put on a show, they put on a performance. 22 
DC: They were breaking out of the handcuffs, they were running down the hallway, they had to 23 throw this sergeant on the bed, and when he was on the bed and saw the handcuffs on top of 24 him, she said, Can we do that again?  I mean, from the time we stepped in that academy, we 25 was respected like I never  I never thought, I would ever see or feel that.  I would never see 26 that. 27 
AJ: That is your power, Miss Dee Dee.  28 
DC: They were so low down to me so many times.  They were so cruel to me and throwed me in jail 29 for nothing.  I went to jail so many times for nothing, just because Im me  for being me. 30 
AJ: Just for being yourself. 31 
DC: So, this right here was really a full-circle moment and to see them talking about pronouns  oh, 1 because we had a trans man there and they called him she.  I saw you mis-gender  you mis-2 gendered him.  Oh, you said mis-gendered. 3 
AJ: Oh, wow. 4 
DC: And so, I was saying, This is my house, get these people out of my house now.  I want them out 5 of my house now.  So, the other two police were wrestling with the girls and they were pushing 6 and trashed me, there was chaos all in the house.  I said, Get off my . . .  The other police 7 standing there, hes like, Shut up, dont you say another word.  I said, This is my house, Im 8 not shutting up, this is my house.  He said, Oh, youre not going to shut up.  I said, No, Im 9 not going to shut up, I want you to get these people out of my house.  Thats when he grabbed 10 Aunt Mae and threw her up there. 11 
AJ: Oh, Aunt Mae got the handcuffs too. 12 
DC: I said . . . they got the cameras and Im saying, Hes locking me up, hes locking me up.  13 Throwed the handcuffs on Aunt Mae and everybody then, including the girls  because they had 14 had that situation happen to them where they were arrested . . . called the police and they end 15 up being the ones being arrested.  So, it just resonated, that whole experience, and then how 16 they pray to him and then we were able to give feedback on what we saw what was wrong right 17 there in front on them.  It was transparent  how they reprimanded them . . . oh, they 18 reprimanded them, they got them together.  Im just overwhelmed how this . . . we were 19 thinking it would take at least 10 years to get everybody to this point where we have the City 20 Council, the mayors office, the police, the public defenders  weve got all these people at the 21 table.   22 
AJ: Yeah, wow. 23 
DC: At the table together.  And, the spirit that they had from the beginning to what they have now is 24 like night and day.  But, at first it was like, We aint changing for you; we aint changing - weve 25 been doing this like this for all these years and this costs too much and it breaks my brain to 26 even think about how to try to change this.   27 
AJ: Right. 28 
DC: And thats where they were and they were stuck, stuck in that.  When we heard about Seattle 29 and Seattles program, Ford Foundation sponsored a trip for us to go and to take the public 30 safety deputy director . . .  31 
AJ: You took some police and all that with you. 32 
DC: All of them, we took them, so that we could all see the program.  And, when we saw the 33 program, it was the impossible made possible.  When we saw it actually happening in action, 34 them going one case by case and talking about their person giving feedback on how the police 35 saw them, if the public fella talked to them, or if they were in another program how they were 36 doing, how they were progressing.  And see, their program is a home reduction . . . it has a 37 home reduction approach like ours does is so no one gets put out of the program if they drink or 38 whatever. 39 
AJ: Smoke or . . . 1 
DC: Whatever, they dont get put out of the program.  People get well at different times and the 2 system has to recognize that  that everybody doesnt get well in two or three days. 3 
AJ: In the same ways, yeah. 4 
DC: Its just a wonderful program.  We were actually able to take two delegations, we went back 5 twice.   6 
AJ: Oh, wow  OK.   7 
DC: We met the mayor, the business district and how they set up a job program for people that they 8 see every day  to go around and put up paper where they go litter.  Get them a job . . . 9 
AJ: Help people with directions or whatever in the neighborhood. 10 
DC: Yeah, a better solution.  Thats why this coalition has just been something that I couldnt have 11 imagined because of how . . . when people go to support the climate that I came out of, when 12 people went to support me or trans people, they lost their jobs, they lost their friends.  They 13 would lose their life just by dealing with trans people and that was just . . . how?  How could this 14 be?  How can you have so much hatred for somebody they dont know?  You dont even know 15 me. 16 
AJ: Wow.   17 
DC: You dont know nothing about me and you hate me?   18 
AJ: Yeah. 19 
DC: So, yeah.  I would like to go to California though.  Every time I go, I come back a platinum 20 blonde.  Its just so freeing and the girls always say, Miss Dee Dee, come on, come out here  21 youd love it.  I said, Yeah, but I know where my destiny is.  It would be different if didnt 22 know, I said, But I do.  So, if I would be visiting and if the mission is complete, Im out of here.   23 
AJ: Let me ask you this, Miss Dee Dee, and feel comfortable to answer this or not, and maybe Ill 24 frame it this way.  How do you feel about medical transition or surgery?  Does that make you 25 more of a woman if youve had full surgery?  And, if youre comfortable talking about your own 26 medical transition, please do. 27 
DC: Well, if I was younger and I had the opportunity like the girls have now, I probably would go 28 ahead and do it.  But, now that Im older and Ive found out, and Im wiser, and Ive found out 29 the essence of myself and how Ive been created to be this and it wasnt a mistake that it came 30 this way, because both sides of me is what makes me so great  you know, not just the one.  I 31 just would like more mental health care for counseling for our communities to work through 32 some of the traumas and stuff that pushed them to go and want to do that, thinking thats going 33 to cure everything thats going on with them.  Its not unique, and Im telling you, if I see them 34 and I know them and I know whats going on with them mentally, its not stable enough for you 35 to go and do that because you really cant make a real informed decision right now.  Youre 36 desperate to try to find out why you cant get it right this way but thats not the way you should 37 go right now.  You know, to make that decision, thats a . . . for me, right now, just the whole 1 thing about the cutting all over your body and stuff, I just . . . I dont want to put my body 2 through that.  And when I have seen it, because a girlfriend of mine she left here and went to 3 New York not too long ago to get on the list to have it, and by the time she went and got it and 4 had it done, she sent me a picture but I wasnt ready for that.  So, I did not actually want to see.  5 I believe you if you tell me, you dont have to show me. 6 
AJ: Yeah, you dont have to show me baby girl.   7 
DC: I believe you.  Yeah, but you know, that takes away from who you are and you just . . . youre 8 still trying to squeeze in the balls that you dont feel because you know, you went and got that 9 done still there are issues.  Everything that you know is . . .  10 
AJ: Dont nobody know whats between your legs no way.  I mean, maybe a couple  two or three 11 people, maybe three at a time.  I dont know  you said you had three boyfriends at one time.  12 
DC: But that was not what they were looking for. 13 
AJ: Right, exactly. 14 
DC: Thats not what they were looking for  they could have had that.  Thats the mentality that men 15 have.  If I want one of those, I would definitely not get one that was made, Id get the real one.  16 OK, thats the real one, you know. 17 
AJ: A factory part versus original parts. 18 
DC: Yeah, original parts.  And then, you all want . . . because of the culture, see in doing my culture 19 when a man liked you, he likes you.  I dont care how many gorgeous girls came by, they were 20 not you and if they liked you, they liked you.  So, thats what I believe in too  that thats what . . 21 . but its not because everything is so fast that everybody wants it so fast. 22 
AJ: Fast, right. 23 
DC: And then it dont last  fast dont last.  Thats an old wives saying. 24 
AJ: Fast dont last.  OK.   25 
DC: Fast dont last. 26 
AJ: Fast dont last.  Wow, this has been an amazing hour and 10 minutes.   27 
DC: Oh, is it.  Lord. 28 
AJ: Yeah, I know. 29 
DC: That went by fast. 30 
AJ: That did.  Its going on 6 oclock.  So, a couple . . . two or three more questions. 31 
DC: OK. 32 
AJ: And maybe just one more.  Where do you see the transgender community in the next 50 years?  33 And then, is there anything that I did not ask you that you really want to make sure you say? 34 
DC: I see our community emerging globally.  I see us as heads of state. 1 
AJ: Heads of state, OK. 2 
DC: I see the U.N., I see First Lady. 3 
AJ: All right. 4 
DC: Fifty years from now, I do.  I think it wont be a society where gender will play such a major part.  5 People still have to be more fluid, should be more fluid, in their understanding of who they are 6 and the respect for other people the way that they are.  Hopefully, we wont have any prejudice, 7 racism . . . yeah.  And a trans president and a trans First Lady. 8 
AJ: All right.  I like that vision. 9 
DC: Trans man and trans woman.  President and the First Lady of the United States  speak that into 10 existence.  11 
AJ: Existence, yes.   12 
DC: Hallelujah. 13 
AJ: Youre pretty religious. 14 
DC: Well, spiritual. 15 
AJ: Spiritual, but you belong to a church community.   16 
DC: Yeah, I belong to Tabernacle Baptist Church.  My pastor is Dennis Meredith.   17 
AJ: OK. 18 
DC: Hes in the book that his ex-wife wrote, I Married a Gay Preacher.   19 
AJ: Oh, wow.  OK.   20 
DC: When I joined the church, it was in transition then to a love and acceptance church, because this 21 was a Baptist Church, been the Baptist Church for years and the groundwork for trans people 22 had been laid there by some of our great ancestors like Miss Blaylock, she had the first sex 23 change and first breast augmentation, she played piano in our church.   24 
AJ: Oh, wow.  Miss Blaylock. 25 
DC: Yes, Miss Blaylock.  This was back in the 1970s . . . 1960s or 1970s.  Miss Blaylock was there and 26 her daughter, Miss Flame, was the first Black trans model for Bronner Brothers.   27 
AJ: Oh, really? 28 
DC: Cosmetics.  And, she worked in the stores and sometimes she did fashion shows with Bronner 29 Brothers during that time. 30 
AJ: Bronner.  B-r-o-n-n-e-r. 31 
DC: Yes.  Bronner Brothers, theyre still here  still around. 32 
AJ: They make haircare and cosmetics and all kind of . . .  1 
DC: Yes.  So, she was with them too.  And Miss Flame also sung solo in the church and Tabernacle 2 was always known for its choirs, they always had the best choirs.  And, they were a little 3 accepting at the time  enough to know that Miss Blaylock is playing the piano and Miss Flame 4 was singing a solo.   5 
AJ: OK. 6 
DC: But this deal I had was an old secret I guess. 7 
AJ: People dont say nothing but they talk about you behind your back. 8 
DC: They talk about you behind your back.  They talk behind your back.  Yeah, so he was talking 9 about trans people because I was visiting different churches, and he was talking about trans 10 people and how the church was going to have to love and accept them like they do everybody 11 else.  And so, he preached on that for like three months straight.  He said, You are going to get 12 this love and acceptance thing down.  I just fell in love with him then, I really did.  Ive never 13 seen a man stand up for a trans person, thats just literal suicide.   14 
AJ: Yes, it can be. 15 
DC: And in a church.  So, I just really admired him  I admired him so much just for being so strong, 16 especially in that tense time.  But, half of the church left, they could not take that.  And then, I 17 was coming, I was coming continuously and I was bringing girls with me. 18 
AJ: Right. 19 
DC: And they were saying, Oh, this has got to stop.   20 
AJ: Wow. 21 
DC: So, they left but he continued on and he went on and divorced his wife.  Hes with his partner 22 now and hes always been transparent about all the stuff that he did.  Hes just been 23 transparent.  I just said, You know how men and sissys can be.  You know it.  Hes just a strong 24 man that even just gives them the material for them to just talk about him. 25 
AJ: Right.   26 
DC: You know, and knowing what theyre going through.  And thats one reason why Ive stayed too, 27 because he keeps being honest about whats going on. 28 
AJ: Authentic, right? 29 
DC: Authentic, yeah, and that means a lot to me.   30 
AJ: Yeah, it does. 31 
DC: If he wasnt, I wouldnt be there because he does say things I dont like.  He says stuff I dont like 32 and I let him know right then and there.  Ill say, All right, Pastor, dont do it. 33 
AJ: Dont do me. 34 
DC: Dont do it, because you know Im coming up there and Im going to say everything up in here. 1 
AJ: Oh, my goodness.  Wow, well, this has just been fascinating and a joy and a pleasure and an 2 honor to sit here and just get to know a little bit about your life.  I know we aint heard the 3 whole story, but we got a little taste of it.  I just want to thank you so much, Dee Dee.  I really 4 appreciate you.  I love you as a sister and as another leader out here thats creating a path for 5 me and for all of these other young girls that are coming up.  So, as they say in the south, bless 6 your heart, honey. 7 
DC: Thank you.  Bless your heart, Lord  bless your heart.  Yes, yes. 8 
AJ: All right.   9 
DC: Lets do our little tea on the porch. 10 
AJ: All right.  Bye-bye. 11 
DC: Bye-bye. 12 

