   
Monica Cross Narrator   Andrea Jenkins Interviewer 
    
The Transgender Oral History Project Tretter Collection in GLBT Studies University of Minnesota 
February 6, 2017 
 
 
   

 
  
The Transgender Oral History Project of the Upper Midwest will empower individuals to tell their story, while providing students, historians, and the public with a more rich foundation of primary source material about the transgender community.  The project is part of the Tretter Collection at the University of Minnesota.  The archive provides a record of GLBT thought, knowledge and culture for current and future generations and is available to students, researchers and members of the public. 
The Transgender Oral History Project will collect up to 400 hours of oral histories involving 200 to 300 individuals over the next three years.  Major efforts will be the recruitment of individuals of all ages and experiences, and documenting the work of The Program in Human Sexuality.  This project will be led by Andrea Jenkins, poet, writer, and trans-activist.  Andrea brings years of experience working in government, non-profits and LGBT organizations.  If you are interested in being involved in this exciting project, please contact Andrea. 
Andrea Jenkins jenki120@umn.edu (612) 625-4379 
   
 
Andrea Jenkins -AJ 1 
Monica Cross  -MC 2 
 3 
 4 
AJ: So, hello.  My name is Andrea Jenkins and I am the oral historian for the Transgender Oral 5 History Project.  Today is February 6, 2017.  I am in the lovely small town of Madison, Georgia, 6 and Im here today with Monica Cross.  How are you doing, Monica? 7 
MC: Im doing good, Im doing good.  Glad to be here.   8 
AJ: Thank you so much for being a part of the University of Minnesota Tretter Collection 9 Transgender Oral History Project.  Its an honor to have your voice as a part of this.  Monica, can 10 you tell me . . . just state your name, spell your name so we make sure we have it correct, your 11 gender identity as you claim it today, your pronouns, and . . . yeah, thats it. 12 
MC: OK.  So, my name is Monica Joy Cross.  That is M-o-n-i-c-a, then J-o-y for Joy, and then Cross, C-13 r-o-s-s  like cross the street.  I identify as transgender today, sometimes queer, but today its 14 transgender.  And pronouns you said? 15 
AJ: Yeah. 16 
MC: Pronouns are she, her  sometimes they, but primarily she and her. 17 
AJ: OK, what was your gender assigned at birth? 18 
MC: Male. 19 
AJ: OK.  I dont want to make any assumptions.  I mean, hey  gender is very fluid and very 20 malleable, as Ive been learning.  So, just to get us really started, Monica, can you tell me what is 21 your earliest memory in life?  Whats the first thing you remember? 22 
MC: Well, the first thing I remember is going back a ways.  My very first time when I really felt 23 different . . . I think thats what youre asking, right?  When I felt different?   24 
AJ: Yeah  and, you know, it doesnt have to be about your gender identity?  I just want to know 25 whats the first thing you remember in life  but if it is about your gender identity, thats perfect.   26 
MC: Well, I can give you two things.  One was in the womb  my mother went to a symphony 27 concert. 28 
AJ: No way. 29 
MC: Yes, in the womb. 30 
AJ: Stop it, Monica.   31 
MC: Mom was going to college and she had all these music appreciation classes. 32 
AJ: Right. 33 
MC: And we were sitting at a symphony and she was carrying me.  To this day, I just remember 1 listening to Beethoven. 2 
AJ: Wow. 3 
MC: Weve talked about this too. 4 
AJ: Your mom confirms that she went to the concert? 5 
MC: Oh yeah.   6 
AJ: To the symphony. 7 
MC: Because you start liking things and Im like, Where do I get this from?  And mom said, Oh, 8 yeah, well I took you to a concert when you were in my womb.   9 
AJ: OK, wow.  So, thats the first thing you remember. 10 
MC: Thats the first thing.  The other part was . . . I think I was like 10 or 11 years old  no, 8 actually.  11 Across the street there used to be a couple, two women  later I found out they were 12 transgender. 13 
AJ: Oh, wow. 14 
MC: But this was back in the 1970s when I was just coming around, just getting consciousness and 15 stuff. 16 
AJ: Right. 17 
MC: And something in me kind of leaped, but, you know, What in the world is that?  But Im in 18 Watts, south central  I had no language for this stuff.  I was between 8 and 10, and I still 19 remember the house across the street where these two women would go and they just lived 20 their life.  21 
AJ: Wow.  Black women?   22 
MC: Black women.  They would walk the street  they werent selling it, theyd just do that and live 23 their lives.  Sometimes Id see cops going in the house and not coming out for a day. 24 
AJ: Really, wow. 25 
MC: So, I knew it wasnt just somebody with an arrest warrant  no, theyre actually doing stuff in 26 there.  But yeah, they would just walk, they didnt hurt anybody, but I knew they were different 27 and then I found out they were trans.  I dont think they used trans back then, they might have 28 used the word transvestite at that time but yeah, they were trans. 29 
AJ: Wow.  Did you ever meet them?  Get to know them?   30 
MC: No.   31 
AJ: They were just in the neighborhood and they were part of the neighborhood, people just kind of 32 said hi. 33 
MC: Hi and . . . there was no crime to my knowledge, no violence.   1 
AJ: Right. 2 
MC: They just lived their life.  But I didnt really find this out until I was doing therapy and the 3 therapist had me really go back and look and then when I talked to my mother, she confirmed 4 this stuff.  Im like . . . I got it, I got it.  I had gone through therapy and I remembered that.  I 5 recently wrote a book and I put it in the book.   6 
AJ: Really?  Whats the name of the book? 7 
MC: Authenticity and Imagination in the Face of Oppression.   8 
AJ: Oh, wow.  Ive got to get a copy so we can add it to the archives. 9 
MC: Yeah. 10 
AJ: Yeah.  Authenticity . . .  11 
MC: Authenticity and Imagination in the Face of Oppression.  So, its how we live our lives and the 12 strategies we use to make it through  like what well talk about today. 13 
AJ: Right, exactly. 14 
MC: Because were facing a whole lot of oppression.   15 
AJ: Yeah.  So, wow  youve got me going in so many directions.  I kind of really want to stay on 16 south central though.  So, you grew up in Los Angeles.  17 
MC: Yes, 118th and Avalon.   18 
AJ: All right.  And, you kind of had this epiphany around Black women with a transgender 19 experience, right?   20 
MC: Yeah.   21 
AJ: They were across the street from you. 22 
MC: Across the street.  I can still see them now because we had . . . the house I grew up in was a two-23 story home and I lived on the top floor.  I could look out the window and see their house across 24 the street. 25 
AJ: Oh, wow. 26 
MC: Id see them walking around, doing what they do.  I mean, I wasnt looking in the house, but 27 when theyre walking on the street and stuff like that. 28 
AJ: Right, when theyd come outside.  Did that spark something in you that you may be different 29 too? 30 
MC: It did, but I didnt have the language to know what to say. 31 
AJ: Sure, but did you express it in any kind of way or did anybody recognize it?  Did you tell 32 anybody?   33 
MC: No, I didnt tell anybody.  It wasnt until I got to . . . at the time, I was feeling . . . I think I was 1 starting to go through puberty and going through some changes inside, just some changes.  2 
AJ: Sure. 3 
MC: So, even though I did have those inklings or those sensations, I cast them aside because I didnt 4 know what that was.  But I carried . . . I still have the image in my mind, I can still see, in my 5 minds eye, I can still see both of those two women.  They were Black women doing their stuff  6 very respectable.   7 
AJ: But in terms of you, you were a regular kid.  How was growing up in LA, south central, in the 8 1970s?  All Black neighborhood? 9 
MC: It was rough in that neighborhood.  We had schools, of course.  One was Locke High and then 10 one was Gompers. 11 
AJ: Gompers? 12 
MC: Gompers.   13 
AJ: Can you spell that?   14 
MC: G-o-m-p-e-r-s.  Gompers.  And then, of course, you had Centennial.  All these schools were 15 feeder schools  junior high and high schools.  So, you graduated from elementary school and 16 you went to those schools and all of them had Bloods, Crips, Pirus  yeah, those were the three 17 main ones.  So, when you went to these schools, either you joined a gang or you joined a gang. 18 
AJ: Were you in a gang? 19 
MC: No.  My mom said, Im going to send you to private school, youre not . . .   20 
AJ: So, were both your parents in the household?   21 
MC: Yeah.  Dad was an engineer for Rockwell at the time, an aircraft engineer, and my mother was a 22 teacher  she was a teachers aide and then she became a social worker. 23 
AJ: What about siblings? 24 
MC: I had one sister, Yolanda, who is actually a minister in the Seventh Day Adventist Church.   25 
AJ: Oh, wow. 26 
MC: Thats what I said  how did that happen? 27 
AJ: And youre a minister too, right? 28 
MC: Yeah. 29 
AJ: Whats your background or whats your title in your . . .? 30 
MC: Im a pastor.  Ive been a pastor at this particular church for about a year now.  And Im an 31 associate pastor at another church.  Im pastor at First Christian Church of Oakland and then Im 32 an associate pastor at Tapestry Ministries in Berkeley.   33 
AJ: Wow. 1 
MC: So, both of these are Disciples of Christ Church and the congregation has to vote you in. 2 
AJ: And you were voted in?   3 
MC: Yeah. 4 
AJ: Is this a transgender church? 5 
MC: No, theyre just very much a progressive congregation.  They lean forward.   6 
AJ: Right, and this is a full-time job. 7 
MC: Yes, full-time.   8 
AJ: And, I assume, the other church is part-time? 9 
MC: Theyre both full-time. 10 
AJ: Wow, so you have two full-time jobs?   11 
MC: Yes. 12 
AJ: Monica!  Wow.   13 
MC: Two full-time church jobs. 14 
AJ: Thats pretty impressive.   15 
MC: I do the Bulletins, I do the music  I mean, I dont play the music but I choose the music were 16 going to have.  I do the sermons. 17 
AJ: So, you sort of create the experience, if you will?  If I can use that language. 18 
MC: I do  pretty much.  I create the worship experience.   19 
AJ: Yeah. 20 
MC: I do it in conjunction with . . . I have a moderator at one church, at the First Christian Church.  21 Hes kind of like the helper, I guess you could say.  I grew up in the AME Church, the African 22 American Episcopal Church when the pastor had all of the power.  If he says jump, people jump 23  except for the board.  But within these churches here, theyre much more congregational so 24 the pastor and the congregation work together. 25 
AJ: Sure. 26 
MC: Which I think is better. 27 
AJ: So, youve got a whole team of people. 28 
MC: Yeah, I do  I sure do.  29 
AJ: Hmm.  Is that good or bad?  Does that help or hurt? 30 
MC: Well, one church . . . so, Im a sole pastor at First Christian Church of Oakland, but then Im one 1 of three ministers at Tapestry Ministries.   2 
AJ: So, whats the congregations like?  Are they mostly . . . are they mixed racially?  Are they Black 3 churches?  Mostly white churches? 4 
MC: No, First Christian Church is primarily African American, although we have one white person 5 there who is married to a Black woman.  Hes half, I guess you could say.   6 
AJ: Hes in there. 7 
MC: Hes in there.  So, when he comes and talks about, Well, my wife did this . . .  Yeah, I know.   8 
AJ: Right.   9 
MC: But theyre diverse in their thinking though its not diverse in race. 10 
AJ: So, the first one is Black and Trinity is . . . 11 
MC: The Tapestry . . .  12 
AJ: Tapestry. 13 
MC: Its much more diverse.  We have Black, white, Hispanic, Asian, gay, straight, bi, lesbian, queer.  14 But the key is most of the people there come from a university seminary setting.   15 
AJ: So, theyre very theological, philosophical. 16 
MC: So, nothing is going to throw them like would throw a lot of other churches. 17 
AJ: Right. 18 
MC: In fact, its funny because the rest of the church, the rest of the region, theyre like, How do you 19 guys do that?  Just have a congregation where we just talk, like were talking.   20 
AJ: Right. 21 
MC: A lot of churches dont know how to do that.   22 
AJ: Wow, thats interesting. 23 
MC: Yeah, thats what I said.  If you say collaboration . . .  24 
AJ: Its interesting that the churches dont know how to talk to each other  whats that all about? 25 
MC: It dont make any sense.  Yeah, its just very interesting.  I could go on all day about that.   26 
AJ: Well, no  I just appreciate the fact that as an African American trans woman, a Black trans 27 woman, you are in the leadership in not one, but two, religious institutions.  And you said the 28 one congregation is primarily Black so that sort of dispels some of the notions around the Black 29 communitys roles around . . . or ideas around the transgender community.  Although, I will say 30 that in many parts of the country it is not as welcoming as it seems to be at First Oakland 31 Christian Church. 32 
MC: First Christian Church of Oakland.   1 
AJ: First Christian Church of Oakland  sorry. 2 
MC: Thats all right. 3 
AJ: Thats amazing.  Do you want to talk a little bit about your thoughts around the Black 4 community and the transgender identity? 5 
MC: I can, but its going to be part of it  its not going to be the whole . . . 6 
AJ: Yeah. 7 
MC: OK.  So, I part of the work I also do is Im a chair, a co-chair of a board called The Collaborative 8 Community Planning Council.  We get money from the administration, right?  Anyway, and then 9 . . .  10 
AJ: From the municipal . . .? 11 
MC: No, previously from the Obama Administration. 12 
AJ: Oh, from the White House?  OK. 13 
MC: Yeah.  And so they would send over to HHS and the CDC and then they would send money down 14 to the various organizations.  Within the East Bay  Oakland, Alameda County, Contra Costa 15 County  we take care of those areas. 16 
AJ: Which?  Alameda and . . .? 17 
MC: Alameda County and Contra Costa County. 18 
AJ: Condra . . .  19 
MC: Contra Costa County.  C-o-n-t-r-a C-o-s-t-a. 20 
AJ: Contra Costa.   21 
MC: Yeah.  And we take the money and we would actually divvy it out between the different 22 organizations  primarily AIDS organizations in the Black community.  So, we would do that 23 based upon the needs of the region, right? 24 
AJ: Yes. 25 
MC: So, one of my friends had a HIV/AIDS Conference for all the Black pastors in the East Bay. 26 
AJ: OK. 27 
MC: They had 40 chairs . . . it might have been 40 chairs set up around the table, we had 20 pastors 28 show up.  One pastor said, Well I cant come because my congregation is not going to be about 29 that.  And so, trying to get the word out in the Black community regarding HIV, its challenging 30 because they just . . . I still remember when I woman told me in Virginia, I had just come out and 31 she said, We already look bad already, youre going to make it look worse.  Its almost like a lot 32 of folks who are Black feel that they have the white man looking over their shoulder so they 1 always got to look good in front of the white man.   2 
AJ: Right. 3 
MC: And thats a lot of the reason why you dont have HIV discussed readily within the area because 4 the whole idea of a . . . whats that word?  Gay  when the White Gaze . . . I think they call it the 5 White Gaze 6 
AJ: Yeah. 7 
MC: Thats the problem.  Now, if you go to a white community, they dont have that problem.  Sure, 8 no problem, lets talk.  But they have a different set of oppressions that the Black folks dont.  9 So, then we go to these different events and you find it really hard to get Black folks to come out 10  part of it is that.  I mean, there are many different areas, but that is one part I found to be 11 very, very much real.   12 
AJ: Wow.   13 
MC: Yeah, the White Gaze, its like.  And even if the person gets . . .  14 
AJ: The White Gaze G-a-z-e, right?   15 
MC: Yeah.  Its tough, its really tough.  So, when you have a congregation of Black people who can 16 move forward with a Black trans minister with all this other stuff, I mean Im not AIDS positive 17 but at the same time, the narrative thats in place, Nah, we dont want that.  But, here I am.  18 And within the region, the region has 63 churches. 19 
AJ: Wow. 20 
MC: Im the only trans person.  I think, for a while, in the denomination.   21 
AJ: Really? 22 
MC: Yeah. 23 
AJ: That you know of. 24 
MC: Yeah, that I know of  because a lot of folks dont come out.  But, I know theres got to be some 25 more, I know theres got to be some more.  Monica, no, youre it.  I know, sure  I just havent 26 met them yet. 27 
AJ: Right, exactly.  I think thats true.  Wow, Monica, you have an amazingly . . . or should I call you 28 Reverend Cross?   29 
MC: Just call me Monica. 30 
AJ: You have an amazing history and history making, but you were in the military, right?  You served 31 in the Navy. 32 
MC: Yes, 22 years. 33 
AJ: Retired.   34 
MC: Yes. 1 
AJ: Chief Petty Officer. 2 
MC: Yes, Chief Petty Officer Cross  thats me.   3 
AJ: Wow.   4 
MC: I havent said that in a while  wow.   5 
AJ: Twenty-two years, thats a long time.  Thank you for your service.   6 
MC: Thank you  youre welcome. 7 
AJ: Honestly, thats amazing.  Where did you serve and what was it like, particularly as an officer? 8 
MC: Well, enlisted, but . . . yeah.  So, I joined the Navy in 1985.  I was actually, at the time, working 9 for the county.   10 
AJ: Oh, wow. 11 
MC: I dont know if youre familiar with Prop 13. 12 
AJ: Proposition 13  yeah. 13 
MC: Yeah.  So, they had to make a lot of changes and they needed people to . . . they had to get rid 14 of the parks and recreations staff so they had to get other folks to come in.  I was one of those 15 folks that came in.  Part of that Prop 13 was making sure folks who got assistance worked. 16 
AJ: Right. 17 
MC: And so we were keeping timecards for those folks from a different park  they sent their 18 timecards in, wed check them off, yeah.  And I was doing . . .  19 
AJ: This was when Clinton . . .  20 
MC: No, this was before Clinton, this was back in the 1980s  1983, 1984.  Yeah, I joined in 1985  so 21 in the early 1980s when they were doing this stuff, and there was also Prop 13 with that.  I 22 worked on Wilshire  I was like, Thats cool, I work on Wilshire Blvd.  Right in the thick  23 wearing a suit to work.  Oh, I was good to go. 24 
AJ: Yeah. 25 
MC: I remember I was sitting on Hollywood Freeway, stuck in traffic, and I said, Theres got to be 26 more to life than this.  So, I got off the freeway, went down to the enlistment office, and joined 27 the Navy.  I went and told my mother and my mother looked at me like, What?  No, you 28 didnt.  Yeah, I did mom.  She couldnt believe it.  So, January of 1985, I went to Great Lakes  29 Great Mistakes.   30 
AJ: Wow, Great Mistakes.  In Chicago? 31 
MC: Yeah. 32 
AJ: Thats my hometown  yeah. 33 
MC: I went there and, at the time, it was 90 degrees below zero with the wind chill factor. 1 
AJ: Yeah, I can imagine. 2 
MC: Im like, I dont believe this.  But I lucked out because . . .  3 
AJ: Thats right on the lake. 4 
MC: On the lake  oh, yeah.  The good thing, I got in a special company because I played a tuba. 5 
AJ: Oh, wow. 6 
MC: I played tuba.  Company 902.  I guess we got special privileges, we didnt have to be all mashed 7 out like the other rifle companies.  So, I did my time there and then I got stationed in Norfolk on 8 an aircraft carrier; spent time in Barbados - highly recommend Barbados if you get a chance. 9 
AJ: Yeah. 10 
MC: Barbados, Jamaica, St. Thomas. 11 
AJ: St. Thomas  wow.  And these were Naval stations? 12 
MC: No, they . . . well, the Naval station was Cuba, Guantanamo Bay, but your R&R were on 13 Barbados and Jamaica and St. Thomas.  So, then after I left there I went to US Central Command 14 at MacDill Air Force Base down in Florida.  Florida is a nice place.  If youve got to be someplace 15 other than California, make it Florida.   16 
AJ: Oh, wow.  OK.   17 
MC: Then after that, I went back out to sea, went overseas  when they had 9/11, I was over there in 18 Italy.  That was tough right there.  Here we are defending the country over here, we get like an 19 inside hit  like youre out here and somebody gives an upper cut in-between.  So, we were kind 20 of pissed off. 21 
AJ: A gut punch, huh. 22 
MC: We can say we know the politics and what the U.S. does and we knew sooner or later somebody 23 was going to hit us back, but at the same time youve got to recognize that you do what youve 24 got to do. 25 
AJ: When you say the politics of what the U.S. does, what do you mean by that? 26 
MC: Well, you know, I dont want to get too political.  You cant keep beating people up and not 27 expect to get hit back sooner or later.  You cant expect to treat people wrong for economic . . . 28 an example would be getting oil from those places, or CIA doing stuff in those places, our 29 government doing really ugly stuff to other countries.  And back in Israel, which that is a whole 30 different conversation, sooner or later people are going to say, OK, weve had enough.  We 31 know we cant fight you, but we can do some sneaky stuff.   32 
AJ: Right. 33 
MC: And thats what they did.   34 
AJ: And thats kind of what terrorism is, right? 1 
MC: Yeah.  People dont become terrorists for no reason at all.   2 
AJ: Right, they aint just blowing themselves up for nothing.   3 
MC: Right, theyre desperate people and unfortunately a lot of Americans just . . .  4 
AJ: Do you think religion has anything to do with that? 5 
MC: Well, religion is always a tool to do evil  thats unfortunate, but it is.  Either through Christianity 6 or whatever religion you want to talk about, theres always that component where it can be 7 corrupted. Theres always that one component and theres no escape because youre always 8 going to have people who are going to misuse . . . people will misuse anything.  You can say, 9 Well, theres a knife and a fork for you to eat, well that person can try and stab you with it.   10 
AJ: Yeah. 11 
MC: Its not the knife and the fork thats wrong, its the person using it.  So, Christianity, Islam, 12 Buddhists  pick one.   13 
AJ: But thats an interesting analogy because while yes, people might throw a brick at you but you 14 can also build a house with it.  Guns, on the other hand are made to kill people and you really 15 cant eat your steak and potatoes with it, right?   16 
MC: No. 17 
AJ: So, I just kind of wanted to point that little analogy out.   18 
MC: Thats a whole different . . . oh, boy.   19 
AJ: We should keep making forks even though once in a while somebody might stab somebody with 20 a fork  but 99% of the time . . .  21 
MC: The good of the fork outweighs the idiocy.   22 
AJ: But the gun . . .  23 
MC: Thats a different story.   24 
AJ: Thats its only purpose.   25 
MC: The only purpose is to kill.  26 
AJ: Wow, the military . . . thats interesting and the politics that surround all of that.  But 22 years, 27 retired. 28 
MC: Yes. 29 
AJ: What did you think about last years decision  in June, I believe, when it became legal to be out 30 in the military?  The Army, which is sort of the leader on sort of cultural thought, said that you 31 can be out as trans and serve in the military.   32 
MC: Im like, Really, now you want to do it?  Damn, why not 10 or 15 years ago when I was trying 1 to hide somewhere over here. 2 
AJ: What was that like hiding your identity in the military?  And I probably should have asked you, 3 when did you know that you were trans? 4 
MC: Do you want me to answer it now?   5 
AJ: Yeah, go ahead - please. 6 
MC: I was in Washington, DC at the time so it was in the early 1990s.   7 
AJ: OK. 8 
MC: So, for me the trans experience and the coming out process is very much about my faith. 9 
AJ: OK, wow.   10 
MC: For me, the more I started really getting deeper and deeper and deeper in my relationship with 11 God, the Holy, the Divine, the Cosmic  yeah, the more of the truth of who I am now really 12 started to emerge.  Ive learned . . . and Ill use the Christian context for this, but it works if 13 youre a Buddhist, whatever  it works the same way. Once you start getting to the truth of 14 what the text says and the truth of who you really are, the more things get stripped off that are 15 not real.  For example, in a lot of cases a child is born and society says were supposed to be this 16 and the parents raise us in such a way that society says.   17 
AJ: Yes. 18 
MC: And then the older we get, life says, Well, thats not exactly what youre supposed to be 19 doing.  And then youre stuck, What do I do?  Ive had sisters that have killed themselves, it 20 just gets ugly. 21 
AJ: Youve had who that killed themselves? 22 
MC: Sisters. 23 
AJ: Oh, yes  exactly.   24 
MC: Either they kill themselves or they get killed. 25 
AJ: And when you say sisters, youre speaking of transgender women. 26 
MC: Trans sisters, yeah.  But for me . . . 27 
AJ: Or they get murdered in the streets. 28 
MC: Killed, murdered.   29 
AJ: By the cops.  I think even by society. Many times I say society kills trans people. 30 
MC: It does  oh, yeah, it does.  I mean, I spend time in the Tenderloin now going and visiting sisters 31 and stuff like that and though you have churches like City of Refuge or Glide Memorial. 32 
AJ: Glide Memorial, Cecil . . .  33 
MC: Yeah, Cecil Williams.  Although you have those churches and communities of faith within that 1 area, you still have a lot of trans folks that just fall through the cracks or they just dont get the 2 care they need. 3 
AJ: Well, I mean, trans people are not exactly welcome in faith communities.  I mean, lets just be 4 real, Monica. 5 
MC: Its true, I know.  Thats true.  Its kind of interesting because even though you would have 6 ministers and stuff who want to reach out . . . and really, in all sincerity, the narrative thats in 7 place prohibits that.  You do have some trans folks that go to church and a lot of them dont, so 8 its kind of a mixture.   9 
AJ: So, you found about your identity through religion. 10 
MC: No, through . . .  11 
AJ: Through your faith, Im sorry. 12 
MC: Not through religion, through my faith. 13 
AJ: I deeply apologize.   14 
MC: Thats fine.  And the deeper I got into my faith, the more Monica came to be.   15 
AJ: You had no inkling about it, no thoughts about it or . . .  16 
MC: Not since I was 8. 17 
AJ: That first time you saw those two women across the street. 18 
MC: Yeah.   19 
AJ: And then you didnt really think about it very much more? 20 
MC: No, because one, I had no language and then, of course, I wasnt surrounded by LGBT people  21 most of them were in West Hollywood, of course.   22 
AJ: Right, exactly.   23 
MC: If they were living in Watts they werent out  so there was no connection, there was no visible 24 community. 25 
AJ: Yeah. 26 
MC: But once I . . . when I got to DC the first time, oh yeah  I was married with two kids and . . . I 27 mean, how do I . . .? 28 
AJ: How long had you been married? 29 
MC: At the time, about 12 years. 30 
AJ: OK, wow.   31 
MC: And I said, Well, Lord, look  I got two kids and Ive got a wife, but I dont know how to deal 1 with this.  So, to make a long story short, wound up getting divorced.  It was tough, we wound 2 up getting divorced. 3 
AJ: Because of your identity?   4 
MC: Oh, yeah  oh, yeah, because of my identity, because of my gender identity.  Its kind of 5 interesting because even though it was an ugly thing  the divorce and stuff like that, at the 6 same time it was like a load lifted off my shoulders. 7 
AJ: Yeah.  Its kind of painful going through it but its like, Wow, that rock is off me now.  8 
MC: Yeah.  And so I started full-fledge . . . well, not full-fledge, I was still in the Navy.  I was moving 9 forward a little bit more.  I remember going to a church and I asked the guy, I said, I dont know 10 how Im going to deal with this stuff.  Did you tell your wife?  I said, Yeah, because, you 11 know, you couldnt hide it.  Ill never forget what he said, he said, Everybody cant handle your 12 truth.  And Ive never forgotten that. 13 
AJ: Wow.   14 
MC: It just reminded me . . . you cant tell your truth to everybody, youve really got to see others . . . 15 do they have a mature ear to hear?  Those words never left me. 16 
AJ: Wow, thats powerful.   17 
MC: Yeah, so . . .  18 
AJ: So, youre sort of 12 years into a marriage, two children.  About how old were you? 19 
MC: Well, Im 55 right now. 20 
AJ: Youre 55 now, but how old do you think it was when you first moved to DC and you . . .? 21 
MC: I was in my 30s. 22 
AJ: In your 30s, OK. 23 
MC: In my mid-30s  yeah.  I think from 35, ballpark figure, to 45 were a critical time in evolution for 24 me.  Yeah, very critical  because I was gradually moving from the . . . well, you know, youre a 25 Black guy, Black male, doing this stuff over gradually into a Black trans woman. It was almost a 26 gradual evolution.  And, you know, I would love to say I had control over it, but really I didnt.  I 27 mean, I could go to therapy and I could make sure I prayed and did meditation and these kinds 28 of things and kept my wits about me, but life said, No, this is how its going to work.  You can 29 get tools to deal with it, but its going like this.   30 
AJ: I dont know, thats interesting.  I feel like that in some ways too.  I was able to hold it off for a 31 long time but eventually it just took on a life of its own. 32 
MC: Exactly.  So, what I did  I got the tools I needed to have, I got the therapy I needed, and because 33 I had been in the community . . . I had my time in DC, I had little holes in the wall. 34 
AJ: What was DC  what happened in DC that made you understand? 35 
MC: Well, when I see hypocrisy, that speaks loud to me.  So, I see these folks in the Pentagon, I see 1 these folks in churches, some on the down low  so theyre living a double life and Im like, 2 Well, I cant live that, that makes no sense, thats too much stress.  A double life and I do this 3 stuff.  I know in DC they work hard and they play hard and youll find them all over  these 4 Senators and Congressman, all over the place.  5 
AJ: Oh, really  OK. 6 
MC: Republicans and Democrats alike.   7 
AJ: Wow. 8 
MC: So, living in that scene and seeing what people actually do and realizing that what theyre doing 9  theyre just living a lie.  They compromise and live a lie.  I cant do that.  So, I think I said it 10 before, the issue was recognizing the lie and you see the lie and then it empowers you to live 11 the truth.  12 
AJ: Wow. 13 
MC: At least in my case anyway.   14 
AJ: Sure, thats interesting. 15 
MC: I hope Im not rambling. 16 
AJ: No, go ahead.  But, I do want to . . . I mean, I guess I just want to know . . . was there . . . youre 17 kind of vague about DC, like . . . 18 
MC: Oh, you want to go deep in it?   19 
AJ: What was it about DC that it was more than just you saw this double life and . . .? 20 
MC: Oh, yeah, I can go deeper than that.  Oh, yeah.  So, the initial story about the double life you see 21 people living . . . but Ill tell you, after I get into the different clubs . . . its funny, I was out one 22 night because a friend of mine, Lorraine  shes a drag queen and she was doing a show up in 23 DC, so we left Norfolk, drove up to DC and we knew that DC . . . DC was or is dry, and Maryland 24 is not dry.  So, we drove over the state line and got some booze, came back over the state line 25 and went to the club.  We stayed at the club all night, yeah.  And then, of course, its like, Wow, 26 Monica, you really look nice.  Wow.  A stranger is telling me this stuff . . . in my mind, they were 27 all strangers.   28 
AJ: So, you were dressing as a woman? 29 
MC: Oh, yeah. 30 
AJ: Cross dressing?  Or, you feel like you were just living your life as Monica. 31 
MC: I was living my life as Monica, yeah.  I really was  boyfriends here, boyfriends there.   32 
AJ: OK. 33 
MC: Doing my thing.  I was learning me.  I got deep. I had a couple boyfriends, but  yeah, it worked 1 out real well. 2 
AJ: Nice. 3 
MC: Ill never look at a bookstore the same way again.   4 
AJ: Yeah, I noticed you said you had those little holes.   5 
MC: Yeah. 6 
AJ: Wow, thats interesting because a lot of people dont necessarily talk about their sex life as a 7 part of their transgender identity, but how do you identify?  Whats your sexual orientation?   8 
MC: It depends.  Some days Im very much about guys  its raining men all day long, focus on men.   9 
AJ: Hallelujah.   10 
MC: Oh, got what I need.  And then, sometimes its women and sometimes its neither.  Its very 11 fluid.   12 
AJ: Very fluid. 13 
MC: Yeah, which makes me almost like really . . . very mindful that . . . although I dont identify as 14 bisexual, per se, but that is a part of that fluidity.  So, Im always mindful if Im with one person I 15 stay with that one person, and then if you break up you dont get with anybody else for a while . 16 . . .  17 
AJ: Right, and then you figure out who you meet thats got that chemistry the next time. 18 
MC: I like men. 19 
AJ: All right, OK.  So, I guess you would say heterosexual. 20 
MC: Yeah, I guess so. 21 
AJ: But you said it earlier on, queer.  So, let me ask you this question, what has been your identity 22 over time?  How has your self identity changed over time and what labels or names have you 23 used to identify yourself over time? 24 
MC: I started out using trans and I did that for a while because it was kind of the easiest thing to 25 work out.  I didnt like it when people called me transvestite, I cant stand that term.   26 
AJ: Yeah, no thats never felt good to me.  What about even before you were trans?  What did you 27 identify as?  Did you ever identify as a gay man?  Or, you were just a straight man?   28 
MC: I was a straight man, although I must admit . . . its kind of funny.  Ive always been aware that 29 society kind of can grapple with gay, even if its kind of faulty; but if you say trans . . .  30 
AJ: Yeah, it gets really crazy really fast. 31 
MC: Yeah.  So, when I was in the Navy, I really started having problems with gender identity but I 32 knew if I said gender identity, I might be gone.   33 
AJ: Right. 1 
MC: And so I said, I think Im gay.  The doctor in the mental hospital said, You know what?  My 2 brother is gay, youre fine  just go back to the ship.  3 
AJ: Oh, wow. 4 
MC: So, I recognized that at a certain level, gay, because people now that youve got gay people or 5 whatever, its been digested to some example and so when it gets to where we are, its OK.  So, I 6 didnt say trans because they wouldnt understand it.  So, that was funny when I went there, 7 Yeah, youre fine, dont worry about it.   8 
AJ: Oh, wow  that is hilarious. 9 
MC: And then I go back to the ship and I had to go through some therapy sessions and, of course, it 10 was a redneck who was my therapist.  She promised youre going to be all right, youre going to 11 be all right.  She was from Alabama too  I can still see her, oh my goodness.  So, I actually 12 never identified as gay except for that time for practicality reasons, so pretty much I went from 13 a straight male to transgender.  And then, of course, once I recognized that these labels can be 14 prisons, then I had to grapple with how to use them.  But I recognized that some people do need 15 them.  And so, like today, I offered that up knowing it may be one person but youve got to 16 make sure that you acknowledge . . . apparently folks had a lot of . . . whoa, all right, what did I 17 open up? 18 
AJ: Well, Im glad you opened up today because I just want to ask you to sort of explain where we 19 are and kind of whats happening.  You dont have to go into details but, you know, talk about 20 the Sojourner Truth Leadership Fellowship for Black Trans Women.  This is an amazing 21 opportunity.   22 
MC: Yeah, you know, when Lisa met me in Berkeley. 23 
AJ: Lisa Anderson? 24 
MC: Yeah, Lisa Anderson.  We were at a table event and were all there and were talking.  It was her 25 and Melvin  Melvins cool. 26 
AJ: Melvin is a cool guy.   27 
MC: Yeah.  And in the middle of . . . I think we were just about to leave, or something like that, and 28 she said, Monica  Ive been trying to talk to you.  Im like, Yeah.  OK, Id like for you to 29 come to the Sojourner Truth Leadership Circle.  OK, what is that?  Ill send you information, 30 Ill send you information.  And so a couple of days went by and I didnt see anything, so I sent 31 her an email about it.  Oh, yeah, Ill get it to you  Ill get it to you.  And she finally did send me 32 the information and stuff like that. It was funny.  But I didnt know what to expect really. 33 
AJ: Right. 34 
MC: And Im pretty busy so I didnt have a lot of time to reflect on what its going to be like. 35 
AJ: Yeah, just signed up and said hey. 36 
MC: OK, Lord, what are we doing now?  But then I got the readings and it gave me a little bit of 1 Toni Morrison and Hurston and so I got a little bit of glimpse of what was going on.  So, it let me 2 know that were not going to a drama-filled trans meeting.  Ive been there, done that. 3 
AJ: Yeah.   4 
MC: And I wont be back.  But, that we were going to a thoughtful, meditative space where trans 5 women can be real  not dramatic, but real.  So, that was cool.  And hearing the stories . . . you 6 know, it was a very different conversation  a much more grounded conversation.  Ive been in 7 places where folks had their story but theyre not grounded.   8 
AJ: Right. 9 
MC: It was a very grounded conversation, a realistic conversation, a practical conversation with 10 people . . .  11 
AJ: Inspiring conversation. 12 
MC: Very inspiring  like wow, really.  Very inspiring conversations.  The kind of conversations that 13 make you sit back and go, OK, let me process this and take it in and really . . .  Like wow, 14 several stories. 15 
AJ: So, exactly what is it?  What is the formal sort of description you got, or your understanding of 16 it?  Just so people who might watch this will know what were talking about? 17 
MC: This group here, I experienced one . . . there is this thing about these particular trans women 18 looking for a deeper understanding of whats going on in their own lives as well as in the 19 communities, because we all do the work. 20 
AJ: Right.  And were all coming from different communities around the country. 21 
MC: Yeah, and then how do I gain tools for sustainability in the work.  And, I heard that in various 22 forms around the . . . everything from Toni-Michelle, she was talking about it; Octavia, she 23 definitely talked about that.  When youre dealing with how do you sustain yourself as a trans 24 person and doing the work with the family  well you know about that stuff.  How do I rest?  So, 25 all of these things I heard today. 26 
AJ: Yeah, how do I rest? That was a big one for me  like, wow.  And then, some people were feeling 27 guilty for resting. 28 
MC: Yeah. 29 
AJ: Which is . . .  30 
MC: But thats how my experiences . . . I had some of that early on, but it left pretty fast.  But, like I 31 said, once I discovered all that was in place, it really changed how I looked at things  like doing 32 the work.  I may have two churches and co-chair of . . . I may be doing a lot of stuff like 33 everybody else, but when youre doing it from a space of freedom and liberation . . .  34 
AJ: Yeah, its a very different experience.  Its less taxing. 35 
MC: Right, very less taxing.  You still need self-care but you dont have the guilt with that.  But the 1 stories were like  wow.  I had to just sit back and kind of take everything in.  But, this . . . 2 
AJ: So, the Sojourner Truth Leadership Circle is like a three-day . . . well, I should say a year long, 3 three times, three-day retreat because we get together for three days, three times  so a total 4 of nine days together and then sort of webinars and coaching sessions in between.  Its an 5 amazing opportunity for Black trans women.  I mean, there are only Black trans women here.  6 Do you feel like there is anything different that were talking about in this space, and you dont 7 have to be specific  but maybe you could be, is there anything different that were talking 8 about in this space than we would talk about in a mixed space?  Like if there were other white 9 trans women in the room?  Whats your thoughts on that? 10 
MC: Well, I think back . . . similar issues do come up.  Self-care, that comes up a lot actually. 11 
AJ: Absolutely. 12 
MC: The issue of pronouns comes up a lot, and they may say queer more often.   13 
AJ: Right, right.   14 
MC: But a lot of the issues cross over. 15 
AJ: Oh, absolutely  no question. 16 
MC: A lot of the issues are just human issues, theyre not specific to transgender  theyre just issues 17 that we all grapple with. 18 
AJ: Well, thats true too.  But theres a lot of issues that are specific to transgender people that do 19 cross over too  race.  But I feel like theres an extra burden of people of color, transgender 20 people of color  particularly Black transgender people because theres racism and then theres . 21 . .  22 
MC: Double indemnity, is that whats its called? 23 
AJ: Double jeopardy, I dont know  double something.   24 
MC: Youre Black and youre trans.   25 
AJ: Its multiple oppressions. 26 
MC: I know  like golly.  Youve got to be really strong folks to go through this stuff.   27 
AJ: Well, I think with a Black transgender woman theres racism, theres patriarchy, and theres 28 transphobia. 29 
MC: Transphobia, yeah. 30 
AJ: Right  so theres three oppressions.  But its not about playing the oppression game but . . .  31 
MC: Its the reality. 32 
AJ: Its the reality, right?  Its the things you have to learn how to go get some tools to cope with.  33 You wrote a book about how to cope with life.  Tell me about your book. 34 
MC: Well, the book is about how you develop strategies to live in the midst of white supremacy and 1 white privilege.  Its about how to sustain yourself in the middle of that  either through various 2 forms of humor, prayer  these kinds of things.  And memory plays a large part of it.  As an 3 example, when I was growing up along with seeing the two trans women in the neighborhood, 4 there was this tree.  I dont know if you had a tree growing up in your neighborhood. 5 
AJ: A tree. 6 
MC: Yeah, a big oak tree.  And that was a community site where everybody came to bring their 7 sorrows, their gladness, their joys. 8 
AJ: Really?  No, we didnt have anything . . . I mean, we had a park with a whole bunch of trees and 9 people went to the park but there was never like one tree that people gathered at  like in 10 Africa where they have Baobab trees everywhere and people would gather at the trees.  I didnt 11 have that in my community. 12 
MC: Well that was our tree and people would come down there and they would just talk out their 13 stuff.  Theyd talk and talk and theyd get in fights sometimes  but wed work it out at that tree.  14 That tree connected so much  it connected the two Black trans women that were in the 15 neighborhood, it connected the man who road a horse and a cowboy hat  a Black cowboy in 16 the middle of LA.  You know, the Watts Riots, the SLA shoot-out, these kind of things.  Theyre all 17 in the midst of that tree.  And so using memory to go back  like you asked me earlier, go back 18 and look at your memories.  Thats a critical component about learning what the truth might be 19 in a persons life  going back . . . because a lot of times, when youre born you dont have a lot 20 of information, you just have how God made you  thats it.  Your truth is right there but not 21 until we get educated and socialized that the truth gets forgotten. 22 
AJ: Sure. 23 
MC: And then when people hurt each other, you find out you should embrace that truth you had 24 when you were 7-years-old because thats where . . . thats why youre doing stuff thats hurting 25 people because you never acknowledged your truth. 26 
AJ: Wow. 27 
MC: And a lot of people dont realize . . . they say, Well, if Im socialized in a certain way then thats 28 what Im supposed to do.  But just because thats what youve been raised to do does not 29 mean thats the truth youre supposed to live  the two are very different.  So, going back in 30 memory . . .  31 
AJ: But sometimes thats really painful for people to think about or look at  or difficult.  Most 32 people dont do that work that youre describing. 33 
MC: No, they dont.  Its hell or hard, but unless we do that . . . why is crime so high?  I dont want to 34 pay higher taxes.  I mean, these are practical results of refusing to face the . . .  35 
AJ: Your truth, yeah.   36 
MC: It costs money when you dont face your truth, it costs people lives.  I mean, the reason why we 37 have what we have now is because nobody wants to face the truth.  Everybody is like, Well, Ive 38 got to live this lie because thats what youre supposed to do.  But I go to church.  Anyway, 1 yeah  so thats what the book is about. 2 
AJ: Well, congratulations  thats beautiful. 3 
MC: Thank you very much.   4 
AJ: Yeah, it sounds very practical as well.  Monica, can I . . . well, heres how Im going to phrase this.  5 To the extent that you feel comfortable, talk about what medical interventions you have 6 pursued in your transgender journey. 7 
MC: Well, it took me until after therapy . . . well, Im still in therapy actually  thats been one big . . .  8 
AJ: And thats certainly a medical intervention, right? 9 
MC: Thats a big intervention right there.  To me, therapy is the most important thing. I went through 10 a . . . I had a wiccan for therapy. 11 
AJ: W-i-c-c-a-n? 12 
MC: Yeah, a witch  I had her for therapy.  And then I also had a . . . shes like a naturalist type of 13 person  non-religious, lesbian.  She was one of my therapists.  I couldnt get therapy at the 14 church at all. In fact, when I came out in Norfolk, thats the therapist I saw.  So, after I had 15 therapy, went through a lot of therapy, then I had breast augmentation  I took care of that.  I 16 havent had the bottom surgery yet, thats a whole different story.  Im planning on that one, 17 but its not as urgent.  I find that a lot of the sisters find it pretty urgent to get that work done, 18 but my life is not centered around that necessarily. 19 
AJ: Sure. 20 
MC: And then, of course, going through  . . .  21 
AJ: And that makes you no less a woman.   22 
MC: No  right, exactly.  And then right now Im doing laser treatment.   23 
AJ: OK. 24 
MC: Doing stuff like that.  So, thats kind of . . . but my thing has been to focus on therapy.  I love it 25 because I find out . . . if you get the body work done but you havent done the therapy, then 26 thats bad.  Its not the outside thats going to really sustain you, its the inside thats going to 27 sustain you. 28 
AJ: Right.  Wow, well thank you for sharing that.  I appreciate it. 29 
MC: Youre welcome. 30 
AJ: Have you experienced any challenges in terms of dealing with various institutions?  It seems like 31 youve been pretty fortunate in your career choices  retired from the military and now youve 32 got two jobs as a minister.  But, you could have had some challenges along the way with law 33 enforcement or the medical community.  Have you experienced any challenges in those areas?  34 Educational  because I assume you went back to school since youve been out? 35 
MC: I started my seminary tract in Virginia, in Virginia Beach at Pat Robertsons school. 1 
AJ: Oh, my goodness  really? 2 
MC: Yeah. 3 
AJ: Thats a pretty conservative school. 4 
MC: Yeah. 5 
AJ: Were you out as trans at this time? 6 
MC: I wasnt out out, but I told them my situation.  I had been at the school for maybe about a year 7 because my journey started going in dips and highs.  So, I registered at the school, got accepted 8 at the school and was like, Wow, because Regent is pretty big in that part of the church  9 really big. 10 
AJ: The region is pretty big, you said? 11 
MC: Regent, the school, is big within that context.  I got to meet Pat Robertson, shook his hand and 12 stuff like that.  Hes just crazy  crazy as a $3 bill. 13 
AJ: Oh, wow. 14 
MC: But, once again, the more I started to get into my studies  and I remember I was in a class 15 where they kind of identify your gifts and they said, Youre going to be a bondage breaker.  16 When people are in bondage, youre going to break that bondage.  So, to some extent I guess 17 Im kind of living that out  I didnt know how I was going to live it out but I guess . . .  18 
AJ: Who knew, right? 19 
MC: Right  you know what Im saying?  So, I started there and I remember going into the bookstore 20 and seeing a book that was written by a woman who came out as a lesbian at Regent and shes a 21 professor.  From what I gathered, they didnt talk to her  they shunned her at the campus, she 22 had to leave the campus. 23 
AJ: Wow  so she wrote the book while she was in school there? 24 
MC: She sure did, that was deep.  To see that . . . wait a minute?  Im at a conservative seminary and 25 theyve got a book by a lesbian?  But they recognized the LGBTQ identities but only as a pastoral 26 care concern. 27 
AJ: Oh, wow  OK.  So, not as a student or . . .  28 
MC: No. 29 
AJ: Or how to help students who are dealing with these issues themselves, but just you cant be LGB 30 or T so you can just help people. 31 
MC: Help people. 32 
AJ: OK. 33 
MC: Thats it.  So, I remember going to . . . it was the psychology department and explaining my 1 situation and the lady said, We cant help you.  She said it just like that, We cant help you 2 because once you enter into that realm theres no help.   3 
AJ: Did you graduate from there? 4 
MC: Hell, no  no, no, no, no. 5 
AJ: So, there was a problem  there was a deep challenge with that institution. 6 
MC: Yes, a deep challenge.   7 
AJ: And its called Regent University?  8 
MC: Regent University.  It was a . . . whats that thing?  I cant think of that denomination but, yeah  9 its a pretty big denomination.  Pat Roberts and other folks are a part of that. So, I remember I 10 took a preaching class and the professor said, If you want to . . . and he was talking to the class 11 and going through different issues.  He says, If you want to do social justice work, this is not the 12 school for it.   13 
AJ: Oh, wow  he just broke it down. 14 
MC: Broke it down  were not that school, we dont do social justice.   15 
AJ: Were not that school, homey. 16 
MC: No.  We aint going to find it here.   17 
AJ: Wow. 18 
MC: In fact, when I put my . . .  19 
AJ: Were all about legislating womens rights and . . .  20 
MC: Yeah, thats all they care about. 21 
AJ: Right.   22 
MC: And he was a more . . .  23 
AJ: And making sure we have our second amendment rights.  Yeah.  Wow, OK. 24 
MC: So, I wanted to put my application in for PSR out in Berkeley and hes the one who wrote my 25 endorsement. 26 
AJ: Whats PSR? 27 
MC: Pacific School of Religion, the seminary I went to.  So, that was rough going through that.  But 28 then another part when I got to California, I tried to work at this Target as a trans and they 29 werent feeling it. 30 
AJ: Really?  They have much better practices now, but yeah. 31 
MC: This was back in . . . I hadnt gone to PSR, so I guess it was in the late 1990s, early 2000s. 32 
AJ: Wow. 1 
MC: So, they werent really feeling me.   2 
AJ: Did you not get hired or you got hired and got fired? 3 
MC: No, I didnt get hired.  They say, Well, we can never tell you this was because you were trans, 4 but you had a pretty good idea it was.   5 
AJ: Wow, Im sorry.  And you are retired military. 6 
MC: Right, even when I said I was a vet.  And it was funny, one person said . . . in a different place, 7 because I had wanted to work at stores, Well, wed lose our customers, we cant hire you.   8 
AJ: Oh, wow.  Im sorry 9 
MC: You know, retail is so much about looks and . . . yeah.  I moved on and said, Well, theres 10 another place.  I did wind up doing some non-profit work, doing . . . what do you call it when 11 youre raising money for different organizations. 12 
AJ: Like a development director?   13 
MC: No, I was on the street raising money for . . . and that was kind of interesting.  I was going to 14 peoples houses. 15 
AJ: Oh, like a canvasser  knocking on peoples doors. 16 
MC: A canvasser  yeah. 17 
AJ: Oh, my goodness.  OK. 18 
MC: I did canvassing work and that was fine because theres some level of being a canvasser and 19 working with these progressive movements where they have certain expectations  that people 20 say, Well, yeah  OK. 21 
AJ: Theyre not as uptight. 22 
MC: I worked for Greenpeace for a little bit, that was nice working for Greenpeace.  But, these are 23 progressive organizations so being transgender, it kind of fit.  But yeah, so thats kind of it until I 24 graduated from seminary and went into ministry full-time.  I kind of hobbled through . . .  25 
AJ: But you had a military retirement income, right? 26 
MC: That went psssh. I told my mother, Im getting out of the Navy, Im tired of this.  Stay in baby, 27 stay in baby, dont get out  youre going to need it.  Well, you know.  So, I guess she was right 28 because I sure did need it.   29 
AJ: Wow. 30 
MC: At least, Ive always had that check coming in and then, of course . . . one thing I did do, so I had 31 to pay for my therapy for . . . I took therapy for four years and I had to pay for it out of pocket.   32 
AJ: Oh, wow.  The Navy didnt cover that?   33 
MC: No.  So, what I had to do was I put in paperwork to get reimbursed for all the work I did, and 1 plus I got diagnosed with suicidal ideation and so the VA had to cut me a big fat check.   2 
AJ: Oh, so that kind of helped out a little bit.   3 
MC: Yeah, so not only did I get back pay . . . I think it was like 5 or 10 years later, back pay. 4 
AJ: Interest. 5 
MC: Yeah, I also wound up getting a regular stipend from the VA. 6 
AJ: To go to therapy. 7 
MC: Yeah, so . . . well, no, this is just money.  They give you a percentage off your retirement, so I get 8 50% of my retirement  its long math.  So, anyway, between my VA disability and my regular 9 retirement, it helps me.   10 
AJ: So, you werent destitute. 11 
MC: Im not broke  yeah, exactly.  So, the rest of my life thats my base.   12 
AJ: Thats beautiful.  So, wow  what was it like when you came out to your family and friends?  13 Clearly, your wife was like, Im out. 14 
MC: Im out  yeah.  My children have come a ways  though I explained to them me and the wife 15 getting divorced and stuff like that.  They wouldnt understand  they were pre-teens, so they 16 didnt have a clue.  But what I did say was, I said, once they go through their own demons and 17 their own stuff, then theyll have a whole different view on life and then we can talk.  And, sure 18 enough, today its all good. 19 
AJ: So, you have a good relationship with your kids?   20 
MC: I sure do.  Yeah. 21 
AJ: Do they call you dad?   22 
MC: Yeah.   23 
AJ: I love that. 24 
MC: Yeah, they call me dad. My daughter, Dad, what should I do?  I want to go . . . I am not a 25 southern girl.  My daughter, Casey, is in Little Rock and she says, Dad, I am not a southern girl.  26 And mom says Im not a southern girl too, so Ive got to get out of here.  So, she wants to come 27 to Berkeley for school  for social work.  Her interest is working with vets and the homeless as a 28 social worker  thats her thing.   29 
AJ: And you have a son. 30 
MC: A son, Nicholas.  Hes 26 or 27, three kids. 31 
AJ: Oh, wow.  Is he married? 32 
MC: Girlfriend  no, just a girlfriend.  But hes working for Verizon  he just got a promotion.   33 
AJ: Nice. 1 
MC: Hes ex-military, both of them . . . Casey is Air Force Reserve and Nicholas is an Army vet. 2 
AJ: Oh, wow. 3 
MC: I said, Why didnt you join the Navy, Nick?  He said, Thats too much water for me dad, I 4 couldnt do that.   5 
AJ: Thats funny.   6 
MC: But theyre doing fine. 7 
AJ: You have a good relationship with them. 8 
MC: Yeah, I do.  9 
AJ: And the grandkids? 10 
MC: Yeah, three.   11 
AJ: Wow. 12 
MC: Three grandkids.  And then my mother  my mother and my sister, my mother is a . . . she said, 13 I got your back, Monica.  Im your biggest fan.  I talk to her every Saturday and she looks at 14 MSNBC like church  every day.  And my sister bought her a phone . . .  15 
AJ: Shes tweeting and everything now, huh?   16 
MC: Monica, did you see what they did?  Blah, blah, blah, blah.  So, I have a good support system, a 17 really good support system. 18 
AJ: I love that  good.  Wow, Monica, this has been a fascinating conversation.  I guess, the last 19 question I will ask is where do you see the trans community in the next 50 years?  And, is there 20 anything that I havent asked you that you feel like is really important for you to say? 21 
MC: Well, you answered the question before you asked the question  because that is the future of 22 the trans community, because thats really what Im about . . . the future.  So, that is the 23 question I would have asked you if you hadnt asked me. 24 
AJ: Wow, OK  got it.   25 
MC: So, there are different waves . . . theres one wave of people that come out and do the ground 26 work  the ladies at the Compton Cafeteria. 27 
AJ: Yes.   28 
MC: Stonewall, these kind of things  that sets the groundwork.   29 
AJ: Yeah.   30 
MC: The next wave comes in and builds on that, right.  I dont know where we are  I think were 31 either second or third wave, because theres a point of time where we have to get to know who 32 we are.   33 
AJ: Yeah.   1 
MC: And some of that . . .  2 
AJ: I kind of feel like Im third wave-ish.  There was the Compton riots and all of that stuff, and 3 Marsha and Sylvia and then I feel like the early 1980s was Kate Bornstein and Leslie Feinberg. 4 
MC: Kate Bornstein  yeah.  5 
AJ: And then theyre friends of mine but I came out looking up to them, so I feel like Im part of that 6 third . . . 7 
MC: That third wave. 8 
AJ: Yeah.   9 
MC: So, I guess . . . I guess were fourth wave, but were moving forward. 10 
AJ: Yes. 11 
MC: And so, the visibility . . . I think the visibility question, I think, is becoming less and less  it 12 doesnt matter who you have in the White House at all, really.   13 
AJ: Right. 14 
MC: I think its were just coming out more and more and more and now you have people who think, 15 Well, I think Im going to run for office one day.   16 
AJ: Like who?  You going to run for office one day? 17 
MC: No, I am, but I know you said you were.   18 
AJ: Yes. 19 
MC: Thats two right there, and then we already had some trans folks running for office. 20 
AJ: Yes, exactly.   21 
MC: And so, to have that thought in mind, weve come a really long way. 22 
AJ: Right, right. 23 
MC: And then we have different . . . yeah, we have Janet Mock and Laverne Cox and the other 24 woman.   25 
AJ: Miss Jenner? 26 
MC: Yeah. 27 
AJ: Yeah, yeah.  She serves a purpose. 28 
MC: She does  she serves a purpose.  Ill give her that one.  And so, I live for tomorrow  in a sense.  29 Things are changing and the whole idea is to have a more extensive vision of what a trans 30 person can do.  I get it and I respect the trans women of color, or whoever has to work the 31 streets. 32 
AJ: Right. 1 
MC: I respect that because hey  its tough, youve got to make a living somehow.   2 
AJ: Well, the thing is  people are forced into that.  You cant get a job at Target, you get kicked out 3 of school  this is your experience, right? 4 
MC: Right, youve got to pay the bills. 5 
AJ: Right, exactly.  Fortunately you did this 22-year bit in the Navy, you had some back-up but there 6 a lot of young women who dont.   7 
MC: I still remember looking at Lorraine and she had a place but she would do all kinds of stuff just to 8 make it  just to make it.  And she . . . 9 
AJ: This was your friend in DC? 10 
MC: Yeah.  She kind of . . . no, she was in Norfolk, my friend in Norfolk. 11 
AJ: Norfolk, Virginia  yeah. 12 
MC: She had her own place and we were doing stuff, but it was tough  it was tough.   13 
AJ: Wow.   14 
MC: I dont have survivors guilt, but now and then I think about that.  I can say, Well, why me and 15 not . . .   16 
AJ: Exactly.   17 
MC: But, to somehow move from that as a community over into something thats like, Wow.  18 When people say, Wait?  Youre a city council member?  Youre over at Ward 8?  Get out of 19 here, how does that work?  So, the hope is the fact that were having a more extensive 20 imagination and the fact that we have a Sojourner Truth Circle of trans women . . .  21 
AJ: That is all about imagination. 22 
MC: Yeah.   23 
AJ: Who would have ever thought  I would have never thought about it until she called me up and 24 . . . yeah. 25 
MC: Yeah, and so the future, even with the complexities, is very bright.  I say that not in a Pollyana-26 ish kind of thing, but the fact is were moving forward. 27 
AJ: Well, you cant stop progress. 28 
MC: No, you cant.   29 
AJ: I mean, some people are trying to.  I aint going to name no names, but . . . 30 
MC: Theyre going to try but you cant stop it. 31 
AJ: The train has left the track  the station, or the horses are out of the barn. 32 
MC: The horse is out of the barn and going down the road, there is no stopping change.  And thats a 1 hopeful, positive plan which I got from our circle today. 2 
AJ: Yeah. 3 
MC: In fact, I think we have all ages in there, right. 4 
AJ: Its a pretty broad range of ages.   5 
MC: Pretty diverse, yeah.   6 
AJ: Just out of college to  me, I aint never going to college again.  Monica, thank you so much for 7 spending this time with me today. 8 
MC: Youre welcome. 9 
AJ: And sharing your story and just talking about life as how you see it and kind of how you came 10 through some of the things that youve been able to work through.  I love the fact that you say 11 youre still working through it because I think we all are- we just dont always admit it as readily. 12 
MC: Right.  I think Octavia kind of spoke to that a little bit. 13 
AJ: I think so, absolutely. 14 
MC: It aint over until its over. 15 
AJ: It aint over until its over.  All right, my dear  until we meet again. 16 
MC: Yes, thank you, Andrea. 17 
AJ: Bye. 18 
MC: Bye. 19 

